Author Topic: Espresso Machines  (Read 76955 times)

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #280 on: January 1, 2013, 02:35:00 pm »
You still get coffee from Adams & Russell? (can you collect from them?)
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #281 on: January 1, 2013, 03:29:14 pm »
I do get my coffee there. It's ace. I think you can collect, but I've only bought over the net.
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Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #282 on: January 1, 2013, 03:41:52 pm »
 
Oh, and here is your next object of desire:
http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/271023251187?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&cbt=y

I'll suffer with the little grinder i have at the moment. Coffee now ordered...
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Offline BCCC

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #283 on: January 1, 2013, 04:48:50 pm »
A moka pot on the stove works great for me, I have a 3 cup and a 6 cup. Any machine is only as good as the coffee you put in it.
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #284 on: January 1, 2013, 07:28:44 pm »
Moka pots are great (i have three). They make great coffee. However, they don't make espresso. Calling them stovetop espresso makers is a total misnomer, as they don't create enough pressure to make espresso.
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Offline BCCC

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #285 on: January 1, 2013, 10:17:20 pm »
Moka pots are great (i have three). They make great coffee. However, they don't make espresso. Calling them stovetop espresso makers is a total misnomer, as they don't create enough pressure to make espresso.

Agree, if its espresso you want then you need a machine to create the pressure. About 10bar I think, a peculator is probably in the region of 3bar.
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Offline El Phes

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #286 on: January 4, 2013, 02:08:14 pm »
Any machine is only as good as the coffee you put in it.

Indeed, and you'll not go wrong with this...makes a lovely crema


Offline Claire.

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #287 on: January 4, 2013, 02:08:55 pm »
Can anyone tell me what I need to get to descale a Delonghi Icona Espresso machine?



Been googling but I'm still not sure what it is I need as on the Delonghi site they only list one descaler and it says it's for a different type and I don't know if it'll be alright in ours. I was also looking at one called Baby Puly, anyone used it? I found a site that said it was good for domestic one's, but I'm not sure. Ngh. Can't find the little book that came with it which I'm sure has instructions for this kind of thing. We're in a hard water area so it's probably all nasty inside and would explain why it's not working brilliantly.

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #288 on: January 4, 2013, 02:31:36 pm »
Can anyone tell me what I need to get to descale a Delonghi Icona Espresso machine?



Been googling but I'm still not sure what it is I need as on the Delonghi site they only list one descaler and it says it's for a different type and I don't know if it'll be alright in ours. I was also looking at one called Baby Puly, anyone used it? I found a site that said it was good for domestic one's, but I'm not sure. Ngh. Can't find the little book that came with it which I'm sure has instructions for this kind of thing. We're in a hard water area so it's probably all nasty inside and would explain why it's not working brilliantly.



In a hard water area, you should be descaling about every 4-6 weeks.
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Offline Claire.

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #289 on: January 4, 2013, 02:49:30 pm »
Sorted, cheers mate!

Offline macca888

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #290 on: January 4, 2013, 02:49:40 pm »
Can anyone tell me what I need to get to descale a Delonghi Icona Espresso machine?



Been googling but I'm still not sure what it is I need as on the Delonghi site they only list one descaler and it says it's for a different type and I don't know if it'll be alright in ours. I was also looking at one called Baby Puly, anyone used it? I found a site that said it was good for domestic one's, but I'm not sure. Ngh. Can't find the little book that came with it which I'm sure has instructions for this kind of thing. We're in a hard water area so it's probably all nasty inside and would explain why it's not working brilliantly.

Here you go kid. Read this review, I think it's the same one as yours -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0021IOTTW/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#RUE6ZKKBA6CMX

And here's where it's the cheapest to buy

http://www.britzmall.co.uk/delonghi-natural-descaler-for-bean-to-cup-machines-2-x-100-ml  £4.18 with free shipping  instead of £6 on Amazon.
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #291 on: January 4, 2013, 02:56:42 pm »
Hers isn't a bean to cup (superautomatic) machine.
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Offline macca888

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #292 on: January 4, 2013, 03:05:06 pm »
Hers isn't a bean to cup (superautomatic) machine.


My bad Mark. I was just going off the review on Amazon that I posted from someone who had used it. I just thought it was the same machine as Claire's.
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #293 on: January 4, 2013, 03:31:59 pm »
Just fitted a new Brass piston to the beast.



Also got some top notch coffee from the Tea/Coffee place in Wrexham.

Cuban Crystal Mountain.

Absolutely the best espresso I have ever tasted.


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Offline Claire.

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #294 on: January 4, 2013, 05:36:01 pm »
My bad Mark. I was just going off the review on Amazon that I posted from someone who had used it. I just thought it was the same machine as Claire's.

The person writing the review has the same one, ordered some cos it was only a fiver and I'll give it a go and see what works best. It's never been descaled, so I imagine it'll need doing a good few times, and that review's got some instructions for me ;D

Thanks for having a look for me mate :wave

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #295 on: January 5, 2013, 09:48:58 pm »
Question:

Why do espresso machines cost so much? (self.Coffee)

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So I am planning to buy a new espresso machine and so far anything that is rated high tend to be in the range $2000. I know there are the Silva and the Breville but they are good as long as you don't crave for superior quality. So what makes such machines expensive although the all have the similar internals and work with the same concept?


Answer:
First of all, you don't need to spend $2000 to make great espresso coffee. A $350 Gaggia Classic with a $150-$200 PID will reliably make great shots for you. The $600-700 Crossland with a built in PID will do much the same. The Silvia remains a great entry machine but probably one that is about $200 overpriced for what you get considering what else is on the market.

And although the basic concept - hot water under pressure through tamped coffee is the same, the execution will very hugely. Although, sure, you are paying for externals - the Rocket Giotto is way prettier than the Gaggia Classic or Crossland...), the internals of all espresso machines are in no way the same.

At the lowest level of machine capable of making decent espresso , basically the Silvia or Classic (I'm ignoring the Krups, Brevilles, DeLonghi machines that sell for $100-300 and are, essentially, a waste of time, effort and money), you have a single boiler dual use machine (SBDU). This sort of machine has a single boiler which provides both hot water for your coffee and steam for steaming. This is fine, provided you don't want to do both at the same time, as you need a hotter temperature in the boiler to make steam, so you need to chose to do one or the other and wait whilst the temperature is right. It's not a big deal if you only drink espresso (which is why I still use my classic), but a pain if you aspire to latte art. Also these smaller machines tend to have small boilers which limits the amount of steam and the number of shots you can make in quick succession.

The Crossland has a PID - a electronic controller which is used to precise monitor and control the water temperature being delivered to the coffee. The Classic and Silvia have much more primative thermostat based temperature control and realistically need a PID adding at a cost of about $150-200 if you want any sort of acceptable performance. Without one, you need huge patience (google "Silvia temperature surfing") to make a good shot. Temp surfing gets old very quickly.

The Crossland has a thermoblock to aid steaming. This is a heated lump of metal with pipes through it, which quickly heats up water. These are very bad as sources of water for brewing coffee (you get them in crappy Krups, etc cheap "espresso" makers) but very good for giving you quick steam without messing with your boiler temperature. This makes it a better bet than either the Gaggia or Silvia if you want to make lots of flat whites and cappuccinos for your friends.

So even at the bottom of the market there is a lot of difference in terms of internal components and capability.
When you get to around $1200-$1500 you get into the realm of HX (Heat Exchanger) machines. A good entry level example would be the Quickmill Anita. These tend to come with fancy shiny steel/chrome cases. These have a boiler (usually quite large) which heats water to make steam and hot water for the dual wands on the front of the machine. The water for the espresso is drawn from the reservoir or pipe through a "heat exchanger" tube that runs through the boiler, heating it quickly from cold to exactly the right temperature when it hits the group head. This is quite a complex bit of engineering to get right and you pay for it. As you do for the often bigger and more thermally stable E61 group head attached to these machines. Some of these machines will also have a PID to further control their temperature, and some offer the option of direct plumbing into a water supply and a rotary as opposed to vibe pump (which provides a more steady pressure profile). HX machines are a great second step into coffee (if you don't get diverted like me into the esoteria of lever machines), but their more robust construction and more complicated engineering comes at a price (all that steel, brass and chrome...). Because the water for steaming comes from an often big boiler and does not get used for making your espresso shot, you can make a shot and steam at the same time, if you want to indulge your kitchen barista fantasies. They are excellent machines for making a round of drinks at the end of a dinner party, something the Silvia and Classic couldn't manage.

At the top end of the pro-sumer range (before you get into the ridiculous stuff like the La Marzocco GS3 or the KVW Speedster ), you get dual boiler machines (although the price difference between DB and HX machines is less pronounced than it was). The Expobar Brewtus IV is a good example. Although externally, they often look quite similar to their HX sister models, and have similar names (a lot of higher end machines come in HX and dual boiler variants), they take a different approach to making espresso and steaming, with a boiler for steaming and a boiler for brewing. Often with a PID on each boiler for even greater heat control. The challenge of fitting two boilers and two control circuits into a machine add even further to the complication and price of what you are buying. And again, they come with a range of choices around plumbing, pumps, etc.

And on top of that, you get a whole load of choices around the depth of chrome on your taps, the flashiness of your dials, the types of switches and levers used, etc. which adds to the price differences between machines.

Of course this is all just broad guidance, and some machines bust through price points offering a lot of features for remarkable little money (in comparative terms). The Breville BES900XL is one of these - it's not pretty, but its stuffed full of features - dual boilers and PIDs, controllable pre-infusion, etc - and at $1200 is a phenomenal bang for buck. Although, as a relatively new machine, like the Crossland, I'd like to wait a few years before taking a view on whether its worth investing in (yeah it's got great tech, but will it last for 5-10 years before breaking or only until its warranty is up...).

However, generally, you get what you pay for in terms of ease of use, robustness of construction, quality of components, and production capacity. At the higher end of this price range, you get machines which could happily produce coffee all day for a small office or restaurant with low demand for coffee - they bridge the home/semi commercial divide and are priced accordingly. They may or may not provide features and capability that you want or need. It is likely you will find it easier to make predictably great coffee on a more expensive machine with better temperature control and a better pump, but if you haven't nailed your grind and tamp badly, it's just as easy to make a horrible drink from your very expensive shiny indulgence. And with or without solid technique starting to spend big money on big machines for marginal improvements in output is a hell of a rabbit hole to dive down...

And did I mention lever machines? Another world entirely... (says the man currently hoping his SO doesn't log on to see his current ebay bid on a forty year old Olympia Cremina)

TL;DR - there is a lot of difference between espresso machines in different price ranges, both internal and external; you get what you pay for, but if you don't need it, there's not much point in paying; fancy steel and chrome looks great in your kitchen anyway, if you have the space and money, and that's what drives a lot of people. Like buying expensive watches, but more fun to play with.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/1603wt/why_do_espresso_machines_cost_so_much/

Offline djphal

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #296 on: January 6, 2013, 11:28:35 am »
My gaggia classic has biffed,  its just trickling out now no matter how much i put in, could this just need cleaning,  ive never done it and had it for about 2 years!

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #297 on: January 6, 2013, 01:07:00 pm »
When you say cleaning, do you mean descaling? If so, yes that cold fix it but you might also have blown your pump by not doing it previously.
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Offline djphal

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #298 on: January 6, 2013, 01:18:16 pm »
When you say cleaning, do you mean descaling? If so, yes that cold fix it but you might also have blown your pump by not doing it previously.

yeah descaling

I will have to give it a go, it doesnt sound any different so I don't think the pump is damaged

Offline conman

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Re: Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #299 on: January 6, 2013, 01:41:30 pm »
My gaggia classic has biffed,  its just trickling out now no matter how much i put in, could this just need cleaning,  ive never done it and had it for about 2 years!
thats happened to the gaggia classic at my workplace too

Offline Bucke

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #300 on: January 6, 2013, 02:20:04 pm »
It happens to my gaggia evolution periodically. I take the cover off where the water comes out, then remove the metal block with Allan keys. Takes a fair bit of leverage to get it out. Then unscrew a little nut in the middle, which has a valve behind it with a spring. Take all that out, then descale it, then reassemble. Usually sorts it out

It's important to flush with loads of water after descaling too, or little bits of crap can jam the whole thing up

Sorry this isn't more technical!
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Offline djphal

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #301 on: January 6, 2013, 06:10:47 pm »
It happens to my gaggia evolution periodically. I take the cover off where the water comes out, then remove the metal block with Allan keys. Takes a fair bit of leverage to get it out. Then unscrew a little nut in the middle, which has a valve behind it with a spring. Take all that out, then descale it, then reassemble. Usually sorts it out

It's important to flush with loads of water after descaling too, or little bits of crap can jam the whole thing up

Sorry this isn't more technical!

thanks for the advice! I will get some cleaner and give it a go!

Offline Bucke

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #302 on: January 6, 2013, 07:22:15 pm »
When I say cover I mean the shower type thing, the round disc. It unscrews.....
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #303 on: January 7, 2013, 01:18:42 pm »
I de-scaled my Espressivo on Christmas Eve, it had basically stopped working.

Worked a treat, needed to flush it through with about five litres of water afterwards but it was much better than lashing out £200+ on a replacement machine.
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Offline djphal

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #304 on: January 7, 2013, 01:40:09 pm »
There is hope then

probably does just need a clean, its done well to make it this far without one!

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #305 on: January 7, 2013, 03:29:38 pm »
This is the coffee machine for the discerning coffee drinker, that also likes a gadget!

http://westye.co.uk/bespoke.aspx?bid=12
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Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #306 on: January 7, 2013, 08:09:38 pm »
Gaggia now in the house. Also got a cheapish Krups Burr Grinder that will have to do for a year or three...
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #307 on: January 7, 2013, 09:13:27 pm »
Skills Jon, good choice. Wish I'd got one of them but am managing to cope...

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #308 on: January 7, 2013, 10:06:17 pm »
I have a hand grinder, does me fine. It's not the tools etc ....... :-)
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #309 on: January 8, 2013, 09:44:00 pm »
Absolute bargain Jon. It comes equipped with a "cream perfetta" filter basked and nozzle. Ditch this immediately and get a traditional basket and perfect using it.  Otherwise your eyes will trick you into thinking you're amazing at making espresso, when actually you're making swamp water with a nice head on it.

This is what you need: http://www.espresso-products.co.uk/gaggia-double-filter-basket-321-p.asp

Do i ditch the plastic widget thing when i replace it?
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #310 on: January 8, 2013, 09:46:40 pm »
Do i ditch the plastic widget thing when i replace it?

No!

Mine pissed out coffee when I removed it!

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #311 on: January 8, 2013, 10:28:04 pm »
I've never been in this thread before, I'm impressed by all of your knowledge of coffee machines.

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #312 on: January 8, 2013, 10:36:52 pm »
Do i ditch the plastic widget thing when i replace it?

Yes you do Jon.  You only need that little plastic thing for the single hole 'cream perfetta' cheat filter.
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #313 on: January 8, 2013, 10:37:59 pm »
No!

Mine pissed out coffee when I removed it!

???

Yerwha?
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Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #314 on: January 8, 2013, 10:41:19 pm »
No!

Mine pissed out coffee when I removed it!

I've got a new basket, unlike the one which comes with the machine this is perforated across the basket unlike the very small area on the other one, hence the question of ditching the plastic widget that would seem to be redundant...

Sound, mark. Not got it up and running yet but hope to either by weekend or end of next week when i'm back from a work trip.
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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #315 on: January 8, 2013, 10:42:39 pm »
???

Yerwha?

When I bought it, it came with a double and a single shot, both needed the widget, if I didnt put it in it sprayed out the sides

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #316 on: January 8, 2013, 10:43:11 pm »
I've got a new basket, unlike the one which comes with the machine this is perforated across the basket unlike the very small area on the other one, hence the question of ditching the plastic widget that would seem to be redundant...



ahhh ok sorry

Offline Claire.

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #317 on: January 9, 2013, 01:36:36 pm »
This is the coffee machine for the discerning coffee drinker, that also likes a gadget!

http://westye.co.uk/bespoke.aspx?bid=12

Ooooh. Something else I'll be needing in my new kitchen.

*bookmarks*

Offline El Phes

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Re: Espresso Machines
« Reply #318 on: January 9, 2013, 03:06:42 pm »
Ooooh. Something else I'll be needing in my new kitchen.

It looks great and very easy to use, I just hope your new kitchen is the size of a shop!

Offline BCCC

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