Author Topic: Scottish politics [brought to you in association with Walkers shortbread]  (Read 29877 times)

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #160 on: February 20, 2023, 08:58:06 pm »
I'm wrong about things all the time... but I think she has just handed the leadership to Yousaf.
I saw a poll the other day, he didn’t seem popular with the public?
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #161 on: February 20, 2023, 09:02:24 pm »
I saw a poll the other day, he didn’t seem popular with the public?

No he's not. He's seen as incompetent.

What I would say in his favour is he's been given very difficult cabinet jobs - the Justice Secretary when the SG was passing the controversial hate crime bill, and health secretary during the current NHS crisis.

I'd take him any day of Forbes or Regan.

Offline Musketeer Gripweed

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #162 on: February 20, 2023, 09:02:25 pm »
Did Forbes come out against gay marriage as well?

Cheerio hen.

Offline ABZ Rover

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #163 on: February 20, 2023, 09:37:27 pm »
I'm wrong about things all the time... but I think she has just handed the leadership to Yousaf.

Hope so because that useless bastard couldn’t run a bath.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #164 on: February 21, 2023, 12:57:57 pm »
That Kate Forbes is one dickhead. Bible bashing c*nt.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #165 on: February 21, 2023, 01:01:07 pm »
That Kate Forbes is one dickhead. Bible bashing c*nt.

The SNP really is a broad church. She’s a throwback to the 70s though, when they were decried as Tartan Tories. It’s very odd that someone would actually think that being less progressive would be a good move for their party, especially considering their recent success.
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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #166 on: February 21, 2023, 01:05:13 pm »
The SNP really is a broad church. She’s a throwback to the 70s though, when they were decried as Tartan Tories. It’s very odd that someone would actually think that being less progressive would be a good move for their party, especially considering their recent success.

Im really surprised climbed the ranks under Sturgeon, being, as the Rt Hon KH pointed out, such a c*nt.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Musketeer Gripweed

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #167 on: February 21, 2023, 01:09:14 pm »
Humza it will be then, probably.


Offline classycarra

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #168 on: February 21, 2023, 01:17:17 pm »
what are his credentials in terms of how his religious views chime with the rest of the party on social issues?

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #169 on: February 21, 2023, 01:18:08 pm »
Im really surprised climbed the ranks under Sturgeon, being, as the Rt Hon KH pointed out, such a c*nt.

She was a junior finance minister, who had to do the budget speech at hours notice following Derek Mackays resignation. She did a fairly good job of it in the circumstances and gained a reputation for competency and it has made her pretty untouchable up to now.

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #170 on: February 21, 2023, 01:20:31 pm »
what are his credentials in terms of how his religious views chime with the rest of the party on social issues?

Yousaf has been pro LGBT rights - there has been a lot of Forbes fans trying to compare them because he is also a person of faith but Yousaf voted in favour of gay marriage and is a signatory to this - https://www.equality-network.org/scottish-lgbti-equality-pledge/candidates2021/ - unlike Forbes. He is also in favour of GRR.

Incidentally Ian Blackford is also part of the same church as Forbes but managed to separate that fro mhis politics.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 01:22:16 pm by Elmo! »

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #171 on: February 21, 2023, 01:56:49 pm »
The SNP really is a broad church. She’s a throwback to the 70s though, when they were decried as Tartan Tories. It’s very odd that someone would actually think that being less progressive would be a good move for their party, especially considering their recent success.

I think this is linked to a resurgence of religious conservatism, especially in the case of evangelical Christianity. They've had some success in the US over recent years, not least with Trump, and it's spreading. The difference in the UK is that they've never really had a foothold here. But look at stories on buffer zones around abortion clinics for example, and we can see how their influence is growing, albeit very slowly.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #172 on: February 21, 2023, 01:59:13 pm »
Yousaf has been pro LGBT rights - there has been a lot of Forbes fans trying to compare them because he is also a person of faith but Yousaf voted in favour of gay marriage and is a signatory to this - https://www.equality-network.org/scottish-lgbti-equality-pledge/candidates2021/ - unlike Forbes. He is also in favour of GRR.

Incidentally Ian Blackford is also part of the same church as Forbes but managed to separate that fro mhis politics.
thanks for this mate. Was aware they were both practising their faith, but realised I'd never heard anything about his social politics so thanks for the education!

Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #173 on: February 21, 2023, 02:15:58 pm »
After the political suicide of Nicola Sturgeon and Kate Forbes are we seeing an end to the SNP as the dominant force in Scotland and is it possible for the visceral reaction against Kate Forbes to split the party?

Is there room for 2 nationalist parties, one loosely based around socially conservative principles and the other socially liberal principles but with both having similar left leaning economic policies.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #174 on: February 21, 2023, 02:22:20 pm »
Forbes also says having children outside of marriage is wrong.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Musketeer Gripweed

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #175 on: February 21, 2023, 02:24:47 pm »
After the political suicide of Nicola Sturgeon and Kate Forbes are we seeing an end to the SNP as the dominant force in Scotland and is it possible for the visceral reaction against Kate Forbes to split the party?

Is there room for 2 nationalist parties, one loosely based around socially conservative principles and the other socially liberal principles but with both having similar left leaning economic policies.

We already have Salmond's Alba Party. I think.

By the way, religion playing a part in Scotland in this day and age. Who knew?

Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #176 on: February 21, 2023, 02:37:09 pm »
We already have Salmond's Alba Party. I think.

By the way, religion playing a part in Scotland in this day and age. Who knew?

I think it's probably more important in Scotland than England, historically at least. Alba has always seemed a vehicle for Alex Salmond rather than a party with a clear identity or purpose. Maybe this could be it with Kate Forbes moving over and joining up with him, could be problematic for the SNP.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #177 on: February 21, 2023, 02:37:56 pm »
After the political suicide of Nicola Sturgeon and Kate Forbes are we seeing an end to the SNP as the dominant force in Scotland and is it possible for the visceral reaction against Kate Forbes to split the party?

Is there room for 2 nationalist parties, one loosely based around socially conservative principles and the other socially liberal principles but with both having similar left leaning economic policies.

It really is a wait and see situation.

Forbes seems more competent, but also objectionable and really not what the majority of voters want in the modern world. Her stances being brought to the fore were inevitable after she ditched her wean to giddily run for El Presidente. She must have known that was coming, but if she didn’t think it would be an issue then alarm bells over her character and judgement are already ringing.
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Offline KillieRed

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #178 on: February 21, 2023, 02:55:28 pm »
Forbes:

“The risk is that we are saying certain public offices in Scotland are barred either to people of faith or … the people of faith that we don’t like – if we are proposing that you can only participate in the public square in Scotland if you abide by certain issues, then we are essentially barring those who practise very mainstream religious teachings.”

She sounds like one of those right wing comedians/politicians (you decide what the difference is) complaining about being cancelled. No, Ms.Forbes you are not barred because of your beliefs, but people get to make up their own minds about you based on what you say and do. If people don’t like your beliefs they may not vote for you or respect you.
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Offline thejbs

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #179 on: February 21, 2023, 03:05:45 pm »
Forbes also says having children outside of marriage is wrong.

Never mind kids, she said SEX outside of marriage is wrong according to her faith.

What an utter balloon.

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #180 on: February 21, 2023, 03:09:49 pm »
I'm almost thinking she's tanking her campaign on purpose.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #181 on: February 21, 2023, 03:16:50 pm »
Forbes:

“The risk is that we are saying certain public offices in Scotland are barred either to people of faith or … the people of faith that we don’t like – if we are proposing that you can only participate in the public square in Scotland if you abide by certain issues, then we are essentially barring those who practise very mainstream religious teachings.”

She sounds like one of those right wing comedians/politicians (you decide what the difference is) complaining about being cancelled. No, Ms.Forbes you are not barred because of your beliefs, but people get to make up their own minds about you based on what you say and do. If people don’t like your beliefs they may not vote for you or respect you.


It bleeds into the 'conservative fallacy'

This is broadly:

A 'conservative' insists that their wish to deprive others of freedom of choice has equal argumentative merit to a 'liberal' arguing that people should be free to choose.

An example:

"Why should your argument that people should be legally free to engage in homosexuality take precedence over my argument that they shouldn't?"

It's fallacious because the two arguments are not equal.

They're not equal because the 'conservative' seeks to control the actions of everyone else. Whereas, the 'liberal' does not seek to force the 'conservative' to partake in anything.
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Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #182 on: February 21, 2023, 03:22:29 pm »
Humza it will be then, probably.



No idea who any of these people are but :lmao

Offline RedGlen

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #183 on: February 21, 2023, 03:34:31 pm »
I think it'll take a while for any consequences arising from Sturgeon's resignation and the eventual SNP leader to filter through to voting intentions for the next elections. While I personally don't find the current crop of potential SNP leaders/First ministers to be particularly inspiring, there is still time for further entrants to the fray. There is also time after the appointment of a new FM for the SNP to sort themselves out and present themselves credibly again.

The SNP have built themselves a large and generally loyal electorate base, which to my eye is based on perceived competence, being the main locus for the independence vote and left of centre/progressive policies. However I think the situation is favourable for Labour - who have been quietly increasing their vote share from <19% (behind the Tories!) in the 2019 election to about 30% (September '22 onwards). The SNP are vulnerable to a renewed Labour who can credibly say that they are in with a big shot of being the party of the UK Government in the next election.

It's difficult to call one way or another, Labour have been increasing their projected vote share steadily for a while now, but the SNP independence bloc is likely to be large and will presumably vote SNP for as long as Scottish Labour remain committed to a unionist viewpoint. However, that said, Labour was once thought untouchable in Scotland, the SNP need to work hard to ensure that they don't make the same mistakes, especially if appetites for independence are lowered. Which I can see happening with a Labour victory in the GE. Many Scots have quite legitimate grievances with Westminster, which if Labour can sort, could render independence dead for a few generations. 
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Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #184 on: February 21, 2023, 03:45:10 pm »
Just looked up how they vote in a new first minister and it does seem possible for the SNP to vote in a new leader and for Scottish MSPs to reject the leader and install an alternative First Minister.

Electing an SNP leader
The constitution of the Scottish National Party sets out the party’s leadership election rules. Candidates for leader must have at least 100 nominations from party members from at least 20 of the party’s local branches. If there is more than one candidate, there will be an election in which all party members are eligible to vote. The vote is run on a one-person-one-vote postal voting system.

Nomination of First Minister
Unlike at Westminster, where a Prime Minister is appointed by the King under the Royal Prerogative, the First Minister of Scotland is nominated for appointment by Members of the Scottish Parliament (MSPs). This takes place when a First Minister resigns or following an election. Theoretically, any MSP could become First Minister. In practice, they will be the leader of the party with the most MSPs.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/how-is-a-first-minister-of-scotland-appointed/

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #185 on: February 21, 2023, 03:56:24 pm »
I'm almost thinking she's tanking her campaign on purpose.

Why

Give it Humza, watch him fuck up then run again ?
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #186 on: February 21, 2023, 04:00:14 pm »
Why

Give it Humza, watch him fuck up then run again ?


By which time Scotland will be embracing religion-inspired bigotry?
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #187 on: February 21, 2023, 04:02:05 pm »
Why

Give it Humza, watch him fuck up then run again ?

I'm not serious, but she's made such a mess of it in the opening days, when she is supposed to be intelligent and competent.

Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #188 on: February 21, 2023, 04:10:58 pm »
I'm not serious, but she's made such a mess of it in the opening days, when she is supposed to be intelligent and competent.

I know some evangelicals, they come across as totally normal until one of these questions come up and it all gets a bit weird. Their occupations include a doctor, barrister and an architect and if you met them on a professional basis you would not think twice about using them, all highly competent and intelligent people.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #189 on: February 21, 2023, 04:31:15 pm »
I know some evangelicals, they come across as totally normal until one of these questions come up and it all gets a bit weird. Their occupations include a doctor, barrister and an architect and if you met them on a professional basis you would not think twice about using them, all highly competent and intelligent people.
Maybe. But see what happens when you want advice about an abortion, are seeking legal help for a case involving your civil partnership, or you would like your new home in the shape of a pentagram.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #190 on: February 21, 2023, 05:04:37 pm »

By which time Scotland will be embracing religion-inspired bigotry?



I was just taking a guess what Elmo meant. Turned out it was all tongue in cheek,
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline ABZ Rover

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #191 on: February 21, 2023, 05:27:02 pm »
Yousaf has been pro LGBT rights - there has been a lot of Forbes fans trying to compare them because he is also a person of faith but Yousaf voted in favour of gay marriage.

Beg to differ but he did not.  He was “conveniently” absent for the final vote.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #192 on: February 21, 2023, 05:33:40 pm »
Beg to differ but he did not.  He was “conveniently” absent for the final vote.

I heard he voted in earlier ballots and on the final vote he tweeted his support as he was on holiday
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #193 on: February 21, 2023, 05:51:33 pm »
Beg to differ but he did not.  He was “conveniently” absent for the final vote.

He voted in favour at the first stage and then was away on government business for the final vote.

You'll struggle to find anything on him that goes against his pro-LGBT credentials. This is weak.

Offline ABZ Rover

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #194 on: February 21, 2023, 10:38:11 pm »
He voted in favour at the first stage and then was away on government business for the final vote.

You'll struggle to find anything on him that goes against his pro-LGBT credentials. This is weak.

He clearly engineered an appointment 19 days in advance knowing full well it clashed with the final approval vote. A fact proven by a freedom of information request.  He swerved it deliberately.

Anyway it’s all by the by as the man is a total and utter imbecile who has failed miserably in every position he has held.
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #195 on: February 22, 2023, 08:36:28 am »
He clearly engineered an appointment 19 days in advance knowing full well it clashed with the final approval vote. A fact proven by a freedom of information request.  He swerved it deliberately.

Anyway it’s all by the by as the man is a total and utter imbecile who has failed miserably in every position he has held.

this theory tha the deliberately engineered missing the vote just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. He has been vocally in favour of gay marriage for years, before and after the vote.

Cases like that where people have missed votes are generally when politicians don't want to vote against what they have said publically, but also don't want to break the whip and vote against the government. See Boris and Heathrow runway for an example.

It just doesn't stack up - it's far more likely he's mixed up the exact timeline from 8/9 years ago.

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #196 on: February 22, 2023, 11:50:59 am »
Such nonsense talked about this issue, with regards to whether someone of faith can hold high office.

The issue isn't her faith, or even necessarily that she might hold socially conservative views (although that might clearly be an obstacle in a party like the SNP). The problem is that she, and people like her, just swallow whole the entire social agenda of their church/religion without thinking. A leader should be able to debate complex issues, understand the nuances of arguments and come to sensible compromises and conclusions. People like her can't seem to do any of this because their opinions are already cast in stone without any of their own thoughts whatsoever. That is what disqualifies them for such a position.

Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #197 on: February 25, 2023, 12:58:35 pm »
Current betting:

Yousaf 10/11
Forbes 5/4
Denham 9/1

I think it's fair to say the SNP are fucked.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #198 on: February 25, 2023, 04:06:24 pm »
Current betting:

Yousaf 10/11
Forbes 5/4
Denham 9/1

I think it's fair to say the SNP are fucked.


Yep.

It's rub your hands time for Labour.

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Sturgeon to resign ….
« Reply #199 on: February 25, 2023, 04:08:12 pm »
Greens will be big winners as well, especially if Forbes or Regan win (not sure why her former married name used above, had to google it).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 04:25:53 pm by Elmo! »