Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[JP-65]

I understand what you're saying. The board provided mean parameters. But there's no escaping that Rafa signed the players.

But can his transfer policy be described as "average player after average player"? Personally I'm only impressed by this argument if it can be shown to have been made last season when we were storming away, win after win after win. If Pistol Pete (that's a badminton player isn't it?) can prove to me he was complaining about Rafa's signings a year ago I'd probably want to listen to what he has to say. Unless of course he's talking about this season's signings. Is it Glen Johnson that's no good? Or perhaps he knows something about Aquilani that we don't?

He's an Arsenal fan!

[Varmenni]

This might be a bit OT and rantish - but I find this thread to be the home of relative level-headedness, so here it goes.....

I think this club's biggest problem is us, the fans.  In our irrational lust for success and instant gratification a lot of us seem to suffer from the delusional notion that due to the club's illustrious history all others should bow down, roll over and ask us to give them a beating.  When that doesn't happen, instead of waking up to the error of their ways they cry murder, call for the managers head, petition for players to be showered in tar and feathers et cetra.

We have to align our expectations to what is attainable.  We have to accept the financial reality.  We don't have backers that are rolling in cash and who can throw millions at a hobby project.  We have to live within our means and balance our quest for instant success with securing the future of the club.  We have numerous examples of clubs in recent history failing to do that.  Leeds, Darlington, Newcastle and Portsmouth in England; Real and Atletico Madrid, Valencia and others in Spain; Lazio, Firontina, Roma and Parma in Italy; Lyn in Norway; Køge and BK Frem in Denmark; And the list goes on.

I think this season will be one of damage limitation.  Recent change in tax legislature will leave a lot of clubs in England to face an exodus of talent in the coming years.  I think this is the reason why we spent that large a part of the transfer budget on securing key players on long term contracts.

I can understand if the manager is getting frustrated.  Today I read a good article by Gareth Roberts ( http://www.thisisanfield.com/2009/10/19/why-rafa-could-qui/ ) where he writes:

But you plump for Liverpool, drawn by its standing and heritage, inheriting an underachieving, average squad which looked certain to lose two of its best players in Michael Owen and Steven Gerrard.

For five years you live and work in a foreign country, putting your heart and soul into the manager’s job at a football club where resources don’t match the expectations.

Add to that that he was lured here by previous regime that made promises that were never kept, who then promptly sold out to a couple of American businessmen whose financial plans didn't stand up to the reality that faced them.

And finally to quote some wise old men:

Though your dreams be tossed and blown
Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone

[hesbighesred]

I understand what you're saying. The board provided mean parameters. But there's no escaping that Rafa signed the players.

But can his transfer policy be described as "average player after average player"? Personally I'm only impressed by this argument if it can be shown to have been made last season when we were storming away, win after win after win. If Pistol Pete (that's a badminton player isn't it?) can prove to me he was complaining about Rafa's signings a year ago I'd probably want to listen to what he has to say. Unless of course he's talking about this season's signings. Is it Glen Johnson that's no good? Or perhaps he knows something about Aquilani that we don't?

Well quite. You're right of course, it's still Rafa provided the list - still though. If it were Rafa who picked the priorities, would we have had Alves instead of Pennant? Quite likely, I would think. That's one Rafa knew would be worth the cash, and though he'd still have likely left for Barca that +£20million as opposed to -£7million would be rather handy at the moment.

The Khaladze one is a certainty as well - we would have had him on a free but for the board. So while you're right, I'm going to far in saying 'the board signed...' as they were Rafa's targets, as we all know there could have been a world of difference between Rafa's priorities and his 2nd/3rd choices, not least because you get the sense Parry had a liking for 'prem proven' that may not have been shared by Rafa so enthusiastically - a la Keane.

[hassinator]

I didn't see the game and a lot of the chat has been about how bad the centre of midfield was.

So an open question. With the lack of 3 of our 4 best CM would we have been better off keeping a more usual defensive shape and going 4-5-1 with an extra body in midfield rather than a player in the hole.

Something like

------------ Reina

Johnson Carra Agger Dossena

--- Spearing Lucas Aurelio

Kuyt -------------------- Yossi

------------ Ngog

interesting idea but have to say we still look a bit light in midfield despite having three players in there.

hbhr/yorky - personally i feel i can justify - or you could argue rationalise - just about all our transfers in that they seemed like educated choices at the time (morientes/keane) or i don't personally remember feeling they were insane at the time either. 

still in terms of where we are now the specific issue of how we get the best out of what we actually have now.  in terms of midfield its clear that it would be better to introduce spearing into a winning team rather than one with its back against the wall.  i worry that - like welch in his day - that he will struggle to impose himself and perhaps lose any chance he has of being a convincing first team player.

i have love for lucas - i think he is less tentative as degsy once put it without perhaps imposing the kind of authority we currently need - but with masch clearly nowhere near his best and plessis failing to convince consistently in the reserves clearly the advent of aquilani is more important by the game.

its also annoying that when we need him most yet again nando is injured after international duty.  still after the weekend's game would more people look forward to n'gog getting a start against lyon playing off gerrard?

[killer-heels]

Oh, and I'll be the first to say this, expect bids from us for Cattermole and Turner next summer.

Cattermole, definitely. To be honest, I can't wait for us to get shot of Mascherano.

Still would prefer Yaya Toure but Cattermole would be more than ideal as a replacement (he is better with the ball than Mascherano in my opinion).

As for Turner, probably wouldn't be able to get him. I would keep an eye out on Ryan Shawcross. He also fits the bill in terms of being strong in the air, strong on the deck and having a good set piece goal scoring record.

I don't see why we can't bring in someone like Didi? We need another midfielder and with experience. Can't get much better than him on a free.

I swear the players are lucky that Rafa hasn't got any money to work with otherwise there would be question marks and replacements lined up for Skrtel, Lucas, Riera and Babel right now, to go along with the likes of Degen, Dossena, Voronin etc.

[hassinator]

Cattermole, definitely. To be honest, I can't wait for us to get shot of Mascherano.

Still would prefer Yaya Toure but Cattermole would be more than ideal as a replacement (he is better with the ball than Mascherano in my opinion).

As for Turner, probably wouldn't be able to get him. I would keep an eye out on Ryan Shawcross. He also fits the bill in terms of being strong in the air, strong on the deck and having a good set piece goal scoring record.

I don't see why we can't bring in someone like Didi? We need another midfielder and with experience. Can't get much better than him on a free.

I swear the players are lucky that Rafa hasn't got any money to work with otherwise there would be question marks and replacements lined up for Skrtel, Lucas, Riera and Babel right now, to go along with the likes of Degen, Dossena, Voronin etc.

\


i like cattermole too and would like to have seen him come in the summer but it seemed wigan were going to hang on for £12m and what did sunderland get in the end?  was it £6m? 

[killer-heels]

\


i like cattermole too and would like to have seen him come in the summer but it seemed wigan were going to hang on for £12m and what did sunderland get in the end?  was it £6m? 

I disregarded Cattermole in the summer. I think you were for him to sign (or someone else was).

It was £8m. I think that had Mascherano had gone (I stated at the time that I would much rather sell Mascherano than Alonso) then we would have seen Cattermole sign.

I don't know. At the end of the day, if the team doesn't perform then we could see more players sold or another manager brought in and who the hell knows who he would buy.

[Tommy Torres]

Sunderland got him vastly cheaper than we would of ended up paying. I can only remember us paying under the odds for one player (Kewall) in recent years.  On Saturdays performance Cattermole would of been a good signing, if he maintains that level of performance then there will be other teams not just us after him.

I'm not convinced about Turner yet but Shawcross looks good. Doesn't lose many headers, is English, good on the ball and is a threat at set pieces. Ticks a lot of boxes. Will be interesting if we sign anybody In Jan but still think we need a striker for times when Torres is injured. Bent at £10 would of done for me. I know people weren't keen on him in the summer, but he scores goals wherever he's been including a really bad Charlton team where he got 20 odd.

Time will tell.

[No666]

hbhr/yorky - personally i feel i can justify - or you could argue rationalise - just about all our transfers in that they seemed like educated choices at the time (morientes/keane) or i don't personally remember feeling they were insane at the time either.

Oh I remember thinking Keane was pretty damn loopy.

[hassinator]

Sunderland got him vastly cheaper than we would of ended up paying. I can only remember us paying under the odds for one player (Kewall) in recent years.  On Saturdays performance Cattermole would of been a good signing, if he maintains that level of performance then there will be other teams not just us after him.

I'm not convinced about Turner yet but Shawcross looks good. Doesn't lose many headers, is English, good on the ball and is a threat at set pieces. Ticks a lot of boxes. Will be interesting if we sign anybody In Jan but still think we need a striker for times when Torres is injured. Bent at £10 would of done for me. I know people weren't keen on him in the summer, but he scores goals wherever he's been including a really bad Charlton team where he got 20 odd.

Time will tell.

agreed on bent now we can see how good he is but have to say i didn't fancy him in the summer after so long without a proper run at spurs.

i think shawcross would be quality and seemed a proper target for us until it was clear the money had disappeared in the summer.

january will only be interesting if we go ahead with the new investors otherwise i still have faith in rafa to turn this round.  we need to get our best players fit and then put a run together.  its really very simple when things start to go right but its not false hope when we've done it in the past.  we all also presumed that this season we would win more but probably also lose more and so far that's definitely been the case

[hassinator]

saw this on another thread and thought it was worth mentioning in terms of rafa's transfer activities - thanks maj for the original link. 

the link says these figures had to be disclosed to the italian stock exchange as roma is a listed property. 

the way the deal is structured is interesting as to me it suggests that we were perhaps actually gearing up for one more major transfer before the window shut though equally you could argue that the septics needed a serious capital injection to service the debt.

http://liverpoolfc.co.za/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1126051643/m/472106714


Contrary to all the rubbish printed by the British press regarding a 20 million pound deal for Alberto Aquilani, Roma have themselves revealed the true extent of the payment structure for the Italian (both to the stock exchange as well as their own official site).

The 20 million EURO transfer fee is broken up into the following:

- 4 cash instalments of
- - 5 million EURO upfront
- - 3 million EURO by 4th January 2010
- - 7 million EURO by June 30th 2010
- - 5 million EURO by June 30th 2011.

Further Add ons include:

- 300,000 EURO for every year Liverpool qualify for the Champions League from 2010/11 to 2014/15

- 250,000 EURO everytime the player reaches 35 appearancs, 70 appearances, 105 appeances and then 140 appearances.

- 1 million EURO the first time Liverpool either wins the Premier League or Champions League by 30 June 2014.

- 5% of any future transfer fee will be paid to Roma.

Details can be found here (for those fluent in Italian) - http://www.asroma.it/UserFiles/988.pdf

So next time you read any article and it says we paid 20 million Pounds or any other funny amount, reference this article!

That being said, if we've only paid 5 million EURO for Aquilani, and got 30 million POUNDS for the Alonso deal right away....is there more money to burn or is it going to our esteemed American owners to re-finance their deal?

[Vulmea]

Did we get all the alonso money straight away? be unusual if we did.

I must admit I didn't realise this thread was so precious to people - there's a difference between in depth analysis and bollocks and I'd have hoped it wasn't an offence to point it out - if it is then I'm defo in the wrong thread.

In terms of transfers I think Rafa has a definate strategy he's probbaly bought less than 10 first team players in all his time here - of those just Morientes and Dossena haven't produced imo

He then goes for good squad players that balance the squad and give him options - he took the best part of three years getting  a balanced squad, off loading the dead wood on too high wages for not enough talent - i think the squad rebuilding he's done goes unacknowledged - probably where teh accusation of average players comes from a basic misunderstanding of how the whole squad thing works you can't have 22 top drawer players

Then there are the bargain basement buys, freebies, reserves, lower leagues, young prospects
this type of buy hasn't been that good for rafa and provides ammo for his critics

finally in terms of squad building there are the youngsters to come through - none to date - not good enough especially given the number of foriegn players now coming to the club at 16/17 years old - can't be laid at rafa's door though not yet anyway

as for cattermole - good industrious young english player make a decent squad player but can't see him as our main defensive midfielder, lacks the speed and stamina or Sissoko, the position knowse of Hamann and the speed of Mascherano - we'd need smebody much better imo  -  if he'd come through our academy he'd be a great cheap option but 6m? not a lot of quality there imo -

[Degs]

So next time you read any article and it says we paid 20 million Pounds or any other funny amount, reference this article!

Why? To point out how right they are?

We've agreed to pay 20 million Euros for Aquilani, it's right there for you to see.
If we sold him in January it wouldn't mean he'd have only cost us 5 million we still have to pay the full 20 million (a la Crouch/Johnson).

On June 30th 2011 we will have paid 20 million pounds for Aquilani, whether he's still here or not, retired from the game, or been the first man sent to Mars on that date we are contractually obliged to pay Roma the remaining money for the 20 million Euro fee (which is at the minute around 20 million pounds).  The only people who can stop us paying that money are Roma, they would have to agree to cancel the payments, usually as part-exchange for another player (like we did with Crouch so we could get Johnson).

Just because we didn't pay it up front does not mean that we didn't pay 20 million, it's now on the books and counts as a 20 million purchase.
You didn't buy your house for £600 that was just your first mortgage payment you bought it for £xxxx and it impacts your spending because you know you have to pay it off.

Then you add on the likelihood of us qualifying for the Champions league in 2010/11 - 2014/2015 being favourable that's another 4 x £300,000 = 1.2 million
If he reaches 140 appearances then that's another 4 x £250,000 = 1 million
And then if we do win the prem or champions league that's a million each time until 2014

I don't get it, it's there in writing you posted it yourself.  Clear as day Aquilani cost 20 million Euros, the only way that will change is with exchange rates or if we do a deal with Roma (in the style of us and Crouch).

Did we get all the alonso money straight away? be unusual if we did.

We did yes, one lump sum.  It's the way Real paid all of their transfers this summer.

[Yorkykopite]

I must admit I didn't realise this thread was so precious to people - there's a difference between in depth analysis and bollocks and I'd have hoped it wasn't an offence to point it out - if it is then I'm defo in the wrong thread.

It's not precious (I don't think) and no one's offended. But you flatter yourself that you've pointed out the difference between 'in depth analysis' and 'bollocks'. You haven't done anything of the sort. You just threw a tantrum, that's all - which, of course, is a nice change from what we normally get.

But if something upsets you you should argue back not throw your toys out.

[hassinator]

Why? To point out how right they are?

totally agree about the sum spent i was thinking in terms of juggling current capital to buy players.  if we had £30m coming in as hard cash for alonso a deal that only takes up €5m of the supposedly available capital i'm suggesting that it could be argued that rafa intended to buy another big player.  the way the aquilani deal was structured is to buy a player and stagger the payments over a period of years in which one would hope that our youth teams starts generating revenue; new owners come in; we make massive profit on a transfer; new owners inject moolah or, heaven forbid, a bigger stadium.  as it happens it would appear the septics have either trousered the profit or - and this is wildly optimistic i know - or rafa just couldn't get who he wanted for the right price as the window shut and has decided to wait until january.  from there its conspiracy theory territory which i'm stoned enough to glance at but too weary to try to get into right now.

[Degs]

totally agree about the sum spent i was thinking in terms of juggling current capital to buy players.  if we had £30m coming in as hard cash for alonso a deal that only takes up €5m of the supposedly available capital i'm suggesting that it could be argued that rafa intended to buy another big player.  the way the aquilani deal was structured is to buy a player and stagger the payments over a period of years in which one would hope that our youth teams starts generating revenue; new owners come in; we make massive profit on a transfer; new owners inject moolah or, heaven forbid, a bigger stadium.  as it happens it would appear the septics have either trousered the profit or - and this is wildly optimistic i know - or rafa just couldn't get who he wanted for the right price as the window shut and has decided to wait until january.  from there its conspiracy theory territory which i'm stoned enough to glance at but too weary to try to get into right now.

I don't buy it.
When the money came in it will have been earmarked for Aquilani.
Rafa couldn't have just run out and spent 15 million thinking he'd only spent 5 on Aquilani, he had to treat it as a 20 million purchase because that's what it was. 

The structure you're describing is Leeds United and their fall from grace.  Bankrolling on the 50 different things that "should" happen in the future.
You don't go gambling with 15 million worth of transfer payments.

[Vulmea]

It's not precious (I don't think) and no one's offended. But you flatter yourself that you've pointed out the difference between 'in depth analysis' and 'bollocks'. You haven't done anything of the sort. You just the threw a tantrum, that's all - which, of course, is a nice change from what we normally get.

If something upsets you you should argue back not get the toys out.

I'm not suggesting I supplied any 'in depth analysis' - the in depth analysis remark came later from others in apparent defence of this thread which is why I used it -  not claiming any morale high ground either other than the ability to tell bollocks from in depth analysis...........

it must have been the mildest tantrum on record and perhaps involved one small,  cuddly toy, probably didn't even get out of the pram just lipped and dropped back in

I'll lurk some more before making myself even more popular by discussing how lfc have stuffed up its youth development and why we'll never have a team of scousers

[lionel_messias]

The point is its hard to find a player with the game-intelligence,  self-confidence and belief to come straight into a Liverpool team and start to make the play in midfield - especially with the dominant figure of Gerrard ahead of him on the pitch.

Right now, we're in a very tricky moment. My opinion is we're going to need a new centre half and a central midfielder to refresh the squad. Not just that, the centre-half could partner Agger (if he stays fit) if Rafa makes the hard decision over Carragher.

Rafa will have to be utterly ruthless if we have any chance of making the top 3 this season. Don't want to have a pop at the manager but I don't want to hear about budgets any more either: he choose the signings of Babel, Lucas, Voronin, N'Gog and Riera; so if none of them turn out useful enough, the buck only stops with one man. In life you don't always get the £50 million cheques you want at the time you want them, you have to make do. Right now the manager has to show what he is made of.

Here's hoping Aquilani is excellent and Mascharano starts playing up to his abilty too, with a fit Daniel Agger that might be our best hope of survival in the hunt until January.

[hassinator]

The point is its hard to find a player with the game-intelligence,  self-confidence and belief to come straight into a Liverpool team and start to make the play in midfield - especially with the dominant figure of Gerrard ahead of him on the pitch.

Right now, we're in a very tricky moment. My opinion is we're going to need a new centre half and a central midfielder to refresh the squad. Not just that, the centre-half could partner Agger (if he stays fit) if Rafa makes the hard decision over Carragher.

Rafa will have to be utterly ruthless if we have any chance of making the top 3 this season. Don't want to have a pop at the manager but I don't want to hear about budgets any more either: he choose the signings of Babel, Lucas, Voronin, N'Gog and Riera; so if none of them turn out useful enough, the buck only stops with one man. In life you don't always get the £50 million cheques you want at the time you want them, you have to make do. Right now the manager has to show what he is made of.

Here's hoping Aquilani is excellent and Mascharano starts playing up to his abilty too, with a fit Daniel Agger that might be our best hope of survival in the hunt until January.

agree with all your points but had to point out that voronin was free and n'gog only cost £1.5m.

also your last sentence speaks volumes about the difference we can expect if things do start to go well again.

degsy - fair enough.  i'm probably lost to the fantasy of money to spend next chance we get but we're in enough debt problems as it is without ridsdale style freakenomics.

[Yorkykopite]

I'll lurk some more before making myself even more popular by discussing how lfc have stuffed up its youth development and why we'll never have a team of scousers

Good on ya. I'd happily read something intelligent on that. We never did have a whole team of scousers but we certainly kept a well-maintained pipeline for decades. What happened to it? I'd love to know.

[josemisuncle]

Good on ya. I'd happily read something intelligent on that. We never did have a whole team of scousers but we certainly kept a well-maintained pipeline for decades. What happened to it? I'd love to know.

The influx of 1000's of foreigners raised the bar and the FA's approach to youth development has lowered the standards.  Look at this: http://www.thefa.com/GetIntoFootball/~/media/Files/PDF/Get%20into%20Football/CoachingStrategyDoc.ashx

How long has Brooking been in that job?  And now he is pitching change?  Radical change!  Give the job to an organization with the leadership skills to actually do what everyone knows needs doing instead of fighting petty political battles with all and sundry.

Sorry, it really gets on my goat.

[nocturnalvin]

just how much time would you guys give Rafa though? Where are we going to draw the line, or who are we going to take sides with? How can a team that came so close last season is suddenly falling apart? Rafa's mitigation is always the money, or rather the lack of it. Is he then absolved of all blame though, as Yorky and some others pointed out, he still has the final say on the transfers. Aren't the players who are rumoured to be ridden his very own signings ? And isn't Rafa supposed to be a miracle worker without the need for miracle money? When will the money excuse finally give way ?

We clearly lack the players, players with proper technique, proper movement. For all his tactical nous in the European game, i just do not think that his tactics are of significance in the premier league. rednose never do much shifting in terms of tactics does he, and yet for 2 decades they are dominating this league.

and btw, for the need of an old head in centre midfield, my shout is for a certain Danny Murphy.

[No666]

The point is its hard to find a player with the game-intelligence,  self-confidence and belief to come straight into a Liverpool team and start to make the play in midfield - especially with the dominant figure of Gerrard ahead of him on the pitch.

I disagree with the last phrase. I think having the dominant figure of Gerrard ahead is a huge plus to any midfielder with the necessary quality. Quality does not inhibit quality. For example, I don't think it is Gerrard who is 'inhibiting' Lucas. The body language suggests that Lucas is a lot happier when Gerrard is on the pitch and turns to him first for advice/mentoring. (Remembering that impossible goal in Marseille and the little interchange afterwards)?

[scatman]

Not sure what Pistol Pete is on about, he just needs to leave this thread i think, being so misinformed about your club and coming out with idiotic comments like that....

I agree with you Devilboy on Gerrard, I've found that Lucas plays very well when Gerrard is in the team, Gerrard doesnt stop players from playing, he improves their play, we'll see the effect he has tonight if he starts.

Going to be a hard game tonight, Lisandro is a dangerous mofo, same with Bastos and co. What lineup are you guys expecting to be put out? Hopefully the fans are up for making some noise today..

[Hank Scorpio]

I can't be arsed to do the maths so realistically what sort of return from the games left in terms of wins, draws and losses are we looking at to equal last seasons points total?

We need 71 points more.

From the 29 games left that is 23 wins, 2 draws and we can afford to lose the other 4.

[killer-heels]

23 wins eh. Good luck guys.

[Uhoh AureliOs]

Someone posted that yesterday, here's the jist.

Hey guys I was bored so decided to do some basic calculations on points this season and last season:

Last season we dropped 28 points ( 11 draws = 22 points and 2 defeats = 6 points ) . Out of possible 114 we got 86 which is a 75.4% which in return means about average of 2.25 points per game (2.25 * 38 games = 85.5)

At the moment we have 15 points out of possible 27.. 15/27 * 100 = 55.5% which means average about 1.7 points per game.. If we continue with that ratio our total points of the season would be about 65 points which is a bit scary ..

Last season after 9 games we had 23 points (7 wins 2 draws) ... average of 2.56 points per game  ! So we almost have dropped a point per game (almost)

If we take last years total average of 2.25 points per game after 9 games we would have around 20 points so we are only 5 points behind this season which is not the end of the world but we need to improve.

If we return to a 2.25 points per game average as per last season for the remaining of this season we will finish the season with about 81 points which means that we need to win about 22 games out of possible 29 (lose 7 games more).  Very feasible in my opinion.

If we were to return to 86 points like last season we need average 2.45 points per game which means we need to win 24 out of the remaining 29 games or win 22 , lose 1 and draw 6. Which is still quiet feasible but less room to allow for error.

And it's going to be a tough ask.

[killer-heels]

It is a tough ask simply because we don't have a solid base and foundation in which to rely on. In my opinion, its a test that is beyond this team.

I would have more confidence in some of our more defensive sides we have had in the past few years being able to get 23 wins from 29 games.

At the moment, we can't keep a clean sheet even if our lives depended on it.

[Hank Scorpio]

Call me crazy, but I do think it is realistically possible.

We've had a number of issues since the end of last season and things have not exactly gone our way.  If I were to list a few; Assou-Ekotto slamming one top corner (he's never scored before, what are the odds?), OG's, foreign objects scoring goals and not to mention losing a couple of very influential members of the squad during the summer (+ Mascherano having his head turned).  Injuries have been a nightmare this season and things can only get better on that front.

If we had a similar set of results with the likes of Agger, Aquilani and Aurelio playing week in, week out, I would doubt our potential to go on a winning run.  But I would like to see these guys in the team on a consistent basis, along with Gerrard and Torres at full fitness, before completely writing off our season.

[scatman]

we'll be fine, trust in the team, the revival starts tonight against a rejuvenated Lyon, if we can beat them then like someone said earlier success breeds success, beating the Mancs would surely provide that. You could say this is like the boro game last year, a big CL game afterwards and the mancs following up.

[BazC]

I did some quick and crude calculations the other day as well. On average, to reach an 85points target (which would put us 'there or there abouts' in my opinion) we'd need to average more points per game than we did last season, which was of course our best ever PL campaign. So at the moment, we're needing to improve a lot on last season just to get to where we were!

I suppose the nature of the game is that all it takes is one good/bad result for everything to change. We need to beat the Mancs in my opinion. We've already given them a decent headstart and need to claw it back now. 10 points behind them at this stage and I won't be expecting any title challenge let alone a win.

P.S- read the Mascherano stuff from djphal. Dunno why it was locked (I think djphal's given good info in the past)- because everyone can see how Masch's a shadow of his former self. I'd be pissed off if he goes, but then it might be for the best if his heart's not in it. I'd have Sissoko back as well to replace him though it probably wouldn't happen (I think Juve love him over there).

[abhred]

What did he say about Masch? I missed it.

[BazC]

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=248823.0

Of course if he does go there's no way Spearing should be the first choice back there. No way in hell. We'd need to get another 'destroyer' in there.

[abhred]

Hmm, how reliable is this guy?

If this is true, then Masch seems to be an even bigger c*nt than I had thought. And I called him a mercenary twat a few weeks back.

Lee Cattermole makes more sense as the days go by.

[Juan Loco]

Yaya Toure please. Was saying this in the summer so I hope some of you doubters have watched what else he brings to the team that the little mercenary coward does not in the early games this season. The lad's epic .

Seriously, I'd fucking carry him to Barcelona for Toure in exchange and then paraphrase Paisley's remarks about King Kenny if I managed to get out of El Prat with Toure in a red shirt.


Oh, and Yorky; the new Xabi Alonso isn't a pensioner in Belarus, he's a young, English, Liverpool fan playing for the blueshite. He's not hard to miss, he's the one with Henry Winter's mouth locked tightly around his cock.

[killer-heels]

I think with Rafa's record with central midfielders and the general number of good-to-very good defensive midfielders out there I think we won't have to worry much about a replacement for Mascherano in the same way as Alonso, who is a fairly unique player.

Cattermole and Toure are just a couple of names. Masch is not in the Reina-Torres-Gerrard league of players that would make me cry if they left and in my opinion, we can get better. I still think he is behind other midfielders in that role simply because I don't think his ability on the ball matches the likes of Essien, Toure or even Diarra.

The only thing that pisses me off is the attitude and the way he has gone about things. Can't say he is a player I would have much time for, even now as he is a Liverpool player.

Also, a player of his supposed level would have been offered a new contract straight away if we wanted to keep him/he wanted to stay. The fact that no such contract has been offered speaks volumes.

[Degs]

Yaya Toure please. Was saying this in the summer so I hope some of you doubters have watched what else he brings to the team that the little mercenary coward does not in the early games this season. The lad's epic .

Seriously, I'd fucking carry him to Barcelona for Toure in exchange and then paraphrase Paisley's remarks about King Kenny if I managed to get out of El Prat with Toure in a red shirt.


Oh, and Yorky; the new Xabi Alonso isn't a pensioner in Belarus, he's a young, English, Liverpool fan playing for the blueshite. He's not hard to miss, he's the one with Henry Winter's mouth locked tightly around his cock.

I'd prefer Keita but he's 3 years older.

[sjh]

Aren't African players going to be absolutely buggered after the African Nations and the World Cup in 2010?

Not that having two key CM from South America helps a lot either.

[abhred]

I want De Rossi. De Rossi, and Gerrard in the same midfield. That would be fucking ridiculous.

He's the best defensive midfielder (maybe Essien) by miles IMO.

[Roger Federer]

Yaya Toure please. Was saying this in the summer so I hope some of you doubters have watched what else he brings to the team that the little mercenary coward does not in the early games this season. The lad's epic .

Seriously, I'd fucking carry him to Barcelona for Toure in exchange and then paraphrase Paisley's remarks about King Kenny if I managed to get out of El Prat with Toure in a red shirt.


Oh, and Yorky; the new Xabi Alonso isn't a pensioner in Belarus, he's a young, English, Liverpool fan playing for the blueshite. He's not hard to miss, he's the one with Henry Winter's mouth locked tightly around his cock.

In the summer I hoped - against all odds - that out of our two central midfielders we'd sell Mascherano and keep Alonso. And get Toure in exchange. Was never going to happen, but we'd been a better team if it did, of that I'm certain. Don't think (a non-commited) Mascherano will be anywhere near as hard to replace as Alonso.

Haven't seen a game with Everton this season, but  you're talking about Rodwell, right?