Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[killer-heels]

ah set piece delivery, Aurelio's delivery has been a bit odd in the last 2 games, noticed him overhit corners a few times yesterday and it really annoyed me especially as Agger usually gets himself on the end of a lot of near post corners. This definately needs to be improved, goals from set pieces make all the difference, who can take set pieces for us now? who should we have taking them?


EDIT:

just read a Gedo post saying that Gerrard and Torres are not going to be fit in time for Sunday..

See, set piece delivery is something which I find odd. We all mention it and we don't see any sort of improvement, which I find very strange seeing that Rafa obsesses over details.

Its his responsibility and we still have an issue here.

Yes I have read that about Gerrard and Torres. Fantastic.

[hesbighesred]

ah set piece delivery, Aurelio's delivery has been a bit odd in the last 2 games, noticed him overhit corners a few times yesterday and it really annoyed me especially as Agger usually gets himself on the end of a lot of near post corners. This definately needs to be improved, goals from set pieces make all the difference, who can take set pieces for us now? who should we have taking them?

Well, Aquilani has an oddly shaped face, much like Pirlo, so that surely means he must have a similar genius with a dead ball, no? Haircuts comparable too - the omens are good...

Yeah spot on, we've never always pressed - but our defensive shape has been Fooball Manager esque at times, it's breaking down far to easily and we look so vulnerable on the break. We also don't seem to have that ability to grind things anymore - like Lyon. Done from a set-piece, done on the break. It makes a lot more sense when form is iffy to go Utd style and just bore the shit out of the other team, like Milan used to and like we used to. I can't stand it that 1-0 or equalising to 1-1, just seems almost meaningless these days.

Liverpool and corners is one of life's great mystery's. Maybe there is something in that 'Anfield gypsy curse' rumour that was doing the rounds, because it's pretty much been the same forever. Maybe Houllier was different but then, at times, that team did seem like a bunch of cloggers and was grim in open play towards the end, and shipped them for fun towards the end too.

Interesting actually that Utd have conceded 0 from set plays. I wonder how much of that is down to great defending and how much due to free-kicks just not being given against them? I'd love to see a stat for the number of 'dangerous' set-pieces conceded by club, because there is no way that Utd actually tackle less hard or less dangerously than we do - they've got dirty players all over the place.

As for Skrtel, he isn't world class yet but I don't think he's all that far from it. 24 is still very young for a defender, unfortunately, Agger on top form aside, that pretty much holds true for all our defenders. We've bridged the quality gap through superior organisation but the lessons just don't seem to be sticking at the moment - but then I wouldn't blame our senior players, and indeed Rafa for going into this season demoralised. I've no doubt they're trying, but how can you hide how gutted you must feel when promised investment and given fuck all?

I was in another thread comparing it to Everton. Every season they build to a great finish. Every summer Moyes is promised investment, he looks all happy and positive and talks about getting 'business done early this year'. What actually happens is funds aren't released until he sells someone, he ends up doing business at the end of the window and they start the next season looking utterly, almost catastrophically shit. By around Autumn the players from last season remember that, actually, they haven't gone shit, Moyes is still a good manager, a few wins get them going again and they build to another impressive finish - I think that's a massive factor in what's happened to us.

Anyway, on Skrtel, no, he isn't yet, but I think he has the potential to be. Our defense last season, on the pitch, was no better in terms of individuals, yet if we'd conceded at that rate this season we'd be top of the league, quite possibly with a handsome gap on our rivals already. Unfortunately, was also simply don't have the means to buy in 'world class' if that's what we need - and we needed Johnson and Aquilani a lot more than a not that huge but possibly very important upgrade on Skrtel/Carra. It would take £20million for that kind of 'guarantee' of class, and given the weaknesses elsewhere that just simply isn't going to happen, in the meantime we have to hope Skrtel can grow into that status.

Which is also a big reason I'm keen to see Carra get a bit more bench time, he may regain form but the fact is he is not going to get better, and his time is increasingly limited. We need to develop Agger and Skrtel as individuals and as a pair and it won't happen while Carra remains inexplicably undroppable. I honestly think Chelsea suggested that a rest can do his personal form a lot of good anyway - and three very good CBs all competing, thus motivated and hungry, could also help make up for the slight shortfall in class we have compared to Utd and Chelsea in that area.

[sjh]

Slightly random tangent...

What I find ironic is how people in the media slate Lucas for not being a 'Brazilian' midfielder. Yet the current Brazil side are big, strong, organised and fast. And they rely on set pieces and counter attacks for most of their goals.

If concentrating on set pieces is good enough for Brazil it should be good enough for all top sides.

[hesbighesred]

just read a Gedo post saying that Gerrard and Torres are not going to be fit in time for Sunday..

Strangely that doesn't dent my overall optimism one bit.

Of course, it means we are significantly less likely to win the game, but for the season as a whole it is absolutely CRUCIAL that we get out of the 'G&T will save us and we're nothing without them, NOTHING'. Win with those two back and it just reinforces the two man team cliche - we know what they can do, its the squad that needs to step up if we're going to turn this around and maybe even win stuff. It's the Kuyt's, Benny's, Skrtel's and Carra's, Lucas and Mash'swhoever - so many of them are captains and leaders in their own right, many of them have been the heartbeat of over-achieving former sides. Being in G&T's shadow doesn't suit them at all, we need squaddies capable of not just stepping in, but being quality in their own right. We need squaddies who don't just shine when G&T aren't there but have the balls to perform when those two are off form, or to shine and take responsibility even when they're at their best.

We need a team of at least 15/16 players who are, to a degree interchangable.

So, this makes it harder to win, but it makes the benefits of winning even greater if we can manage it, and it takes a load of G&T's shoulders as well, which could make a massive difference. Yorkie's very left-field Pacheco shout actually looks rather less crazy now, maybe even Voronin who, for all that he's been maligned, for me has played the 'Gerrard' role better than anyone when I've seen him thus far - and I include Gerrard in that.

Whoever gets the nod - be it Ngog, Voronin, Babel, Riera - this is a massive OPPORTUNITY for them. This is your game lads, this is where you get to go from being an also ran to a thoroughbred.

Bollocks to it, bring it on. It there was even a hint of complacency in the Manc camp this news will surely magnify it further. Harder to win, but as I say the benefits are even more tangible because we NEED the squad to step up. Again, what better game for them to step-up to than this?

[hesbighesred]

Slightly random tangent...

What I find ironic is how people in the media slate Lucas for not being a 'Brazilian' midfielder. Yet the current Brazil side are big, strong, organised and fast. And they rely on set pieces and counter attacks for most of their goals.

If concentrating on set pieces is good enough for Brazil it should be good enough for all top sides.

They are absolutely lethal on the break too, and base it on a solid defence.

The thing is, they also add those 'non-brazilian' qualities to their traditional play - they can still keep possession for days under Dunga, and the full backs still act like wingers for so much of the time. Maybe not the most fluent Brazil side you've ever seen, but it's like us last season or Rafa's Valencia - a fractional loss in fluency is more than compensated for by the fighting capability and adaptability that defence, set play strength and countering affords them.

It means also that, like Valencia, they can face on team (Houllier's Liverpool) and one-touch possession them off the park, then face another team (Barca) and annihilate them with direct football and counter attacking.

Tactical versatility is a massively under-rated asset - if it weren't Arsenal would actually win things.

[sjh]

It means also that, like Valencia, they can face on team (Houllier's Liverpool) and one-touch possession them off the park, then face another team (Barca) and annihilate them with direct football and counter attacking.

Tactical versatility is a massively under-rated asset - if it weren't Arsenal would actually win things.

Bloody good point that.

[killer-heels]

I agree that, for the sake of this team, its better that we go into this game without Gerrard and Torres.

My criticisms of the team has been the lack of leadership and responsibility of the likes of Mascherano, Skrtel, Lucas and both that and the form of players like Carragher. The only players that have taken the lead bar Reina, Gerrard and Torres this season have been Johnson and Benayoun.

Personally, I question the rest of the squads ability to lead and thats why we are in this position. But, if these players want to be a part of this club if Rafa is still around and if the clubs ownership issues are ever resolved, then on Sunday they have to prove it because Rafa is ruthless enough to bin the majority of them.

[royhendo]

Nothing like a defeat the dust the soapboxes off and get the creative juices flowing, eh lads?

brilliant. Juan, sorry for the uppity bollocks a page or two back incidentally.

92a - thanks mate.

 

EDIT:

just read a Gedo post saying that Gerrard and Torres are not going to be fit in time for Sunday..

<chic>oh what a joy<\chic>

...and the other more famous lyric. Or not.

[Degs]

Martin Kelly right-back, Glen Johnson right-wing.
Happy days.

[Yorkykopite]

Martin Kelly right-back, Glen Johnson right-wing.
Happy days.

Glen Johnson, right back, Martin Kelly centre back (with Agger), Ryan Babel, right wing. All three playing in their natural positions. Even happier days.

[Degs]

Slightly random tangent...

What I find ironic is how people in the media slate Lucas for not being a 'Brazilian' midfielder. Yet the current Brazil side are big, strong, organised and fast. And they rely on set pieces and counter attacks for most of their goals.

If concentrating on set pieces is good enough for Brazil it should be good enough for all top sides.

The big difference here is that Brazil do play a defensive game, a counter-attacking approach with 2 solid defensive midfielders but they have the faith to leave their attackers up the pitch.

Ahead of the back 6 the forwards are always in and around the area: Robinho, Fabiano, and Kaka.  Pacey, accurate and in the right spots, even without the ball.

By the time we win the ball Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt, Benayoun etc. are in our own half and we've got no pace to break with.

The Brazilians have faith in the defenders to defend and attackers to attack.  They're the total opposite to this level 3/Saachi ideal that we hold in such high regard.

[Juan Loco]

brilliant. Juan, sorry for the uppity bollocks a page or two back incidentally.

It's a bit late for that now you twat.


... Nah, I can't say I'd noticed anything out of the ordinary Roy

Glen Johnson, right back, Martin Kelly centre back (with Agger), Ryan Babel, right wing. All three playing in their natural positions. Even happier days.

No chance of happening though, let's be fair.

I'm hoping for 4-4-2 with Yossi and Riera on the flanks, Diggler straddling the line between poacher and pest and Babel looking like a footballer. As close to last seasons system without Nando and Gerrard as possible. If nothing else I want us to press the fuckers to death and harry them to a point.

If Nando, Gerrard and Aquilani are all fit enough to make the bench and are able to offer a difference off there then fantastic. I'd fear going in with N'gog, or particularly Kuyt as the one up front on their own however. We should not be letting them out of their own half without a battle.

[Yorkykopite]

No chance of happening though, let's be fair.

Absolutely zero chance  . Too much pace for one thing.   

[hassinator]

Absolutely zero chance  . Too much pace for one thing.   

kelly looked really good last night, didn't he?  big, pacey and he got his crosses in.  i think his physique suggests that he will be a centre back - to think he won't completely fill out until his 20s - but not sure i'd want him slipped in there under these circumstances. 

i hear what everyone's saying about carra but i don't think the utd game is one i'd want to start without him.  its the biggest game of the year so far and i suspect it may play to his qualities when he should have a big chance to redeem himself.

i think the fact we conceded again from a set piece illustrates that constantly changing the personnel is going to make the unit less effective.  how many times have we played the same four defenders in consecutive games?  how much does that obviously disrupt the creation of and instinctive and definitive response? 

[sjh]

The Brazilians have faith in the defenders to defend and attackers to attack.  They're the total opposite to this level 3/Saachi ideal that we hold in such high regard.

But doesn't RM say in his book that teams need to have the ability to drop back down to Lvl2 when the game situation dictates?

A front 4 of:

                                       Torres

Some pacey monster  ---  Gerrard --- Dirk/Yossi

would be pretty good on the break and also capable of the lvl3 stuff when appropriate.

[liverbnz]

Would anyone go with N'Gog on Sunday? He is taking an awful lot of abuse on the mainboards, despite a pretty good performance. He is more likely to keep a hold of the ball than either Kuyt or Babel. I thought he did that very well last night. The missed chance (which was excellently controlled) and the poor ball ball near the end (think JL mentoined this too), seemed to stick in people's minds come the final result. I thought his control off the chest was top class, and he was laying off the ball and getting himself into decent positions.

PS: Aquafresh playing now for the ressies.

[Degs]

Would anyone go with N'Gog on Sunday? He is taking an awful lot of abuse on the mainboards, despite a pretty good performance. He is more likely to keep a hold of the ball than either Kuyt or Babel. I thought he did that very well last night. The missed chance (which was excellently controlled) and the poor ball ball near the end (think JL mentoined this too), seemed to stick in people's minds come the final result. I thought his control off the chest was top class, and he was laying off the ball and getting himself into decent positions.

PS: Aquafresh playing now for the ressies.

I don't think he was good, but neither was he awful.  He won the ball alot but didn't do anything after that, for a player with the control and pace he has he needs to turn and run at players.  As it is he put in a great partners performance last night but he did it in the lone strikers role.  The likes of Di Santo at the weekend against Burnley showed what N'Gog should be doing, winning it and passing it immediately to Gerrard, Benayoun, Kuyt, etc. but once Gerrard went off our one outlet was gone.

Having said that he shouldn't be starting on Sunday, he'll get outmuscled by Vidic and Ferdinand and he wont run at players.  I must have said 50 times I want Babel out of the door, gone, but if he's here throw him in his natural up front position running inbetween the pair, have Johnson on the right skinning Evra (Lennon does it every year) and I'd again play Kelly at right-back.  Carragher and Agger centre halves (Carragher may be playing bad but people haven't noticed how bad Skrtel has been because of Carra's fall from grace).

Even then though it's fitness permitting, it's silly for me, you, or even Rafa to speculate a team when any or all of Torres, Gerrard, Aquilani, Johnson, Kelly, Riera and N'Gog could all not start or all be in contention for a first team spot.  If Gerrard is fit he has to be dropped back though.

[liverbnz]

I don't think he was good, but neither was he awful.  He won the ball alot but didn't do anything after that, for a player with the control and pace he has he needs to turn and run at players.  As it is he put in a great partners performance last night but he did it in the lone strikers role.  The likes of Di Santo at the weekend against Burnley showed what N'Gog should be doing, winning it and passing it immediately to Gerrard, Benayoun, Kuyt, etc. but once Gerrard went off our one outlet was gone.

Having said that he shouldn't be starting on Sunday, he'll get outmuscled by Vidic and Ferdinand and he wont run at players.  I must have said 50 times I want Babel out of the door, gone, but if he's here throw him in his natural up front position running inbetween the pair, have Johnson on the right skinning Evra (Lennon does it every year) and I'd again play Kelly at right-back.  Carragher and Agger centre halves (Carragher may be playing bad but people haven't noticed how bad Skrtel has been because of Carra's fall from grace).

Even then though it's fitness permitting, it's silly for me, you, or even Rafa to speculate a team when any or all of Torres, Gerrard, Aquilani, Johnson, Kelly, Riera and N'Gog could all not start or all be in contention for a first team spot.  If Gerrard is fit he has to be dropped back though.

I'm with you completely on Babel. I'm fed up with him and fear there is no hope. He just doesn;t have it between the ears and he is a shitbag the majority. Although, for this game I can see why people would want Babel in against United. Vidic still looks suspect on the turn and Rio has lost a bit of pace due, most likely to his back problems. Babel's pace could expose that weakness, Only thing is I fear the ball coming back at us real quick with Babel up front.

Gedo says no on Gerrard and Torres.

[Vulmea]

@Vulmea.

I can't agree one bit about Ngog's attitude - his attitude looks fine to me. As for the relative ages - Rafa prefers to bring his players through when they're physically ready. Whatever you say about Insua, physically he's been massively impressive. To an extent the same goes for Ngog and the bought in young players.

Insua, for example, is a better defender now, after half a season around the first team, than Clichy will ever be - and he's catching up quick in attack.

Anyway, that's me getting hugely sidetracked. I still can't remember there being better youngsters on the fringes than Kelly, Ayala, Spearing, Ngog, Insua etc for many a long year. Insua has already shown that the good ones will get minutes - so will Kelly. He should now be 2nd choice RB after Johnson, and should play in the Carling and get a few appearances and plenty on the bench too - his versatility is also a huge asset because he can play across the back 4, it doesn't take that many injuries for him to be rotated in again.

It's only now that he's got a crop of youngsters that he's got faith in - and Kelly (Insua too) look far better than Warnock did in his early appearances, and you say he didn't get games but in fact he did, he got lots of chances under Rafa, none under Houllier at all and frankly owes a lot to Rafa,  - and you ask when they'll get games - but they are getting games.

For years we've been saying he should try youngsters instead of cheap squaddies - well - isn't that exactly what he's doing? How else do youngsters get games?- Kelly had a top debut, looks physically ready, is in the CL squad ahead of Degen and I would be surprised if we see Degen at all now, I would think Kelly has displaced him as reserve RB.


In short, you're not going to dent my optimism in that respect Of course, Gulasci and Nemeth have also both excelled on loan, and were stars in the Hungary u20's run to the semi's of the world cup for that age group -

Pacheco and Della Valle are just the pick of the iceberg - there's very few players in that reserve team who don't look to at least have the potential to raise some decent cash - we made money off Anderson, for example, and have replaced him with Amoo who looks, for me, just as good at that level, and with a far more likely to succeed type of physique. Bouzanis is another one, Ecclestone another - it's a far cry from when Djimi Traore was one of our hottest defensive prospects - I remember seeing him and he was hugely limited compared to Ayala, for example, yet he really was one of our hottest defensive prospects.

 

Some interesting points and many I agree with however......

I firmly belive that the kids have to be pushed - the likes of Spearing and Darby, Pacheco and Nemeth all stagnated last year - at a smaller club they would have been seriously blooded by now and without developing at the right time I dont think they'll ever reach their potential.

Warnock had a sesaon out on loan at Coventry under ged (got their player of the season) and was still bound for the exit door before rafa arrived and wanted to review all of our players - warnock did play he did have chances but he made too many mistakes slipped down the order and was sold - problem is he wasn't good enough early enough and you dont get the time otherwise - thast why I think something has to give - Kelly had a good debut but he made mistakes - bound to but we can't afford them

We'll agree to differ on Ngog and we'll also have to differ on Insua - physically I think he's short in more ways than one - his stamina is suspect and he tires too easily (as shown by his poor lapses in concentration) - Ngog does look to have the physical attributes though. Insua really surprised me when he played for the first team because to be honest I'd seen nothingin the stiffs - good going forward, good cross, good feet but slow in the turn, poor positionally and he switches off too much.

Youngsters on the fringes - we've always had prospects but the new order with youngster bought in to supplement the locals clearly provides more options - in terms of chnaces though - Ayala comes in does well , especially against Stoke but then we buy Krygiakos despite that and despite Kelly also being available - why because Rafa can't trust the kids in the prem and thast exactly where they need the experience. Training with the first team must help but it is not enough. An apperance here and there isn't enough either these guys need to learn their trade with a run of games, build their confidence, dead rubbers in the Cl, a game or two in the league cup not good enough. To go back to last years stagnation of good players - these lads only get 10 years at the top - delaying  a year or worse 2 and thats 20% of their career down the tubes. Our appproach is of necessity conservative and will continue to be which almost ensures we wont get the players through we could or need. The growth of squads killed off reserve team football and nothing has replaced it except  a half baked  youth league. A competitive U21 league  would be better than the current mongrel system. Another idea would be to chnage the league cup format to groups and gurantee the youngsters a set number of games but I am now digressing.

Gulacsi is  a good shout - quietly impressive but a goalkeeper can be ruined by one bad game so fingers crossed  -

agree on the stiffs but as I've tried to highlight we wont know until we see them - there can be slow burners but still most talent is spotted by 18 - there is a balance between over playing, pressure and development but I'm not sure Rafa has it right in fact despite the fact he is eminently more qualified I think he's got it wrong - Pacheco should be playing first team football, all of our stiffs should be at some point this year not dooing well in a meaningless reserve league

I thought Traore looked brilliant for the reserves to be honest, as did John Welsh, Darren Potter, Ritchie Patridge, Lee Peltier, David Raven, Jon Ostemobor, Adam Hammill, Paul Anderson, Neil Mellor - its not  a good yardstick to judge by...............

[JP-65]

Nemeth missed nearly all of last season being injured a variety of times, that's why he stagnated!

[No666]

he put in a great partners performance last night but he did it in the lone strikers role.

Nail on head, for me.

[Vulmea]

Nemeth missed nearly all of last season being injured a variety of times, that's why he stagnated!

he did have some injuries its true but he also turned down the chance of  a season long loan before the season started -prefering to be on the fringe of the first team - where guess what he would have stagnated anyway.............changed his mind in jan and got crocked go figure

[redy]

This has probably been discussed and I missed it, but how criminal was it of Lucas and Insua to let Govou go right in front of them and not track back and let a 2 v1 situation develop against Agger?

[Vulmea]

This has probably been discussed and I missed it, but how criminal was it of Lucas and Insua to let Govou go right in front of them and not track back and let a 2 v1 situation develop against Agger?

Not actually criminal at all, not in a legal sense...................

[Juan Loco]

Was it an optical illusion? Is my mind playing tricks on me? Did flicking between masterchef, the ressies and the Milan game not work properly? 'Cos I swear I saw Clarence Seedorf giving 'Wor Xab the run around. At 33.

What a player. That's the kind of experienced, quality, I wish we could add cheaply. Plays fucking everywhere too and is just a class act. Plus he's as good a guarentee of a European Cup win as you can find. Unless you're Inter.

[JP-65]

he did have some injuries its true but he also turned down the chance of  a season long loan before the season started -prefering to be on the fringe of the first team - where guess what he would have stagnated anyway.............changed his mind in jan and got crocked go figure

He was injured as the season began.

[Varmenni]

This has probably been discussed and I missed it, but how criminal was it of Lucas and Insua to let Govou go right in front of them and not track back and let a 2 v1 situation develop against Agger?

I think it was more of a failure to communicate.  I think Agger was supposed to come out and pick him up but he was more concerned with doubling up on Gomis.  You can see here -> http://www.101greatgoals.com/videodisplay/3695756/ that he had a few seconds to come out, but went napping and ended up chasing the action.  More worrying is that you can see Insúa just jogging back.  Mascherano does well to sprint back to help Agger but is just a second to late.  Carra anticipates that one og Skrtel, Reina or Gomis will get to the cross and tucks in a bit to be in a position to possibly deal with a rebound, but then none of them does and the ball rolls just out of reach and falls perfectly for the Lyon player and Bob is your uncle.

On another note...  Rudolf Rednose and Brian Laudrup just found an old Leeds vs Milan game where Dida had another howler not unlike tonights

Edit:

Just got home after two Red Bulls and a gallon of adrenaline. Spent almost FOUR HOURS one-to-one with Rafa. Incredible, eye-opening day
about 4 hours ago

From Tomkins's Twitter thingy

[royhendo]

That'll be an ineresting read.

[Redsnappa]

That'll be an ineresting read.

Fellers, it's a wonderful piece.

Crisis? What crisis indeed....dark days at the moment, but the future is brighter than ever.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2009/10/my-day-with-crisis-hit-benitez/

[scatman]

very nice, wish i could know the details that tomkins found out! We all know how the media portray Rafa and you have to feel sorry for the man, seems like an impossible task for him at this club. Great read.

[Vulmea]

He was injured as the season began.

and after already turning down the opportunity to move.....thats not the point I'm trying not very successfully to make....Pacheco, Spearing, Darby, Plessis played well pre-season and were not injured. Would the lad have developed any more than them, would he have had the first team opportunities they didn't if he hadn't been injured?

Its back to the John Welsh argument - was he hampered by not being given games to develop or was he just not good enough - the fact that Baines, Barton, Nugent and Nolan have all come through as established prem players after leaving the club, whilst the club itself has graduated just  Warnock and Guthrie (both of whom have developed further since leaving) also lends fuel to the argument that something isn't right.

Sure Insua and Ngog are currently on the fringe and have been given opportunities but they arrived for over a million quid each - Lucas was just 20 when he arrived - none of them stood out in the reserves but all were fast tracked into the first team squad -

El Zhar is also an odd one - he arrived at 21 (same age as Agger and Babel when they arrived) so not really a 'reserve' player yet because he cost 250k he gets the tag youngster and a lot of slack - Babel gets crucified despite having contributed more - because of his body language or price tag I'm not sure - likewise with Lucas.

I'd agree we have a very talented bunch of kids coming through I just dont see how we will maximise that potential with the current demand for success - Wenger has tried at Arsenal and won nothing using a similar poicy of buying in young players at 18/19/20/21.

[Yorkykopite]

Just read the Tomkins piece. It's very hard to know what to make of it since he's, naturally, unable to reveal anything of substance. It's no surprise, therefore, that the two posts above me draw completely opposite conclusions:

Fellers, it's a wonderful piece.
Crisis? What crisis indeed....dark days at the moment, but the future is brighter than ever.

We all know how the media portray Rafa and you have to feel sorry for the man, seems like an impossible task for him at this club. Great read.

'Future brighter than ever'? 'An impossible task for him at this club'? We're just as confused as ever aren't we?    And the Tomkins article adds nothing we don't already know - except perhaps yet more evidence of the limitless reserves of optimism in its author.

[Redsnappa]

Just read the Tomkins piece. It's very hard to know what to make of it since he's, naturally, unable to reveal anything of substance. It's no surprise, therefore, that the two posts above me draw completely opposite conclusions:
'Future brighter than ever'? 'An impossible task for him at this club'? We're just as confused as ever aren't we?    And the Tomkins article adds nothing we don't already know - except perhaps yet more evidence of the limitless reserves of optimism in its author.

Yorky, I found it reassuring that despite the pressure all around, things carry on as normal at Melwood. Not that I expected Mr Tomkins to go Rafa bashing, especially after the VIP treatment he received from the man himself.

I am beginning to think, despite my own optimism, that, for a variety of reasons - the loss of Xabi, the poor form of established players, the injury list and the good early season form of the Europa League scrabbling teams, to name a few - that we will not win League or CL honours this season and that we are taking a step back to go forward next season. Undoubtedly we will improve form and have a great run to finish in the top four - there is too much class and too much experience in the squad and staff to believe otherwise.

So, with a difficult (but not impossible) tie at the Emirates coming up, I believe an assault on the FA Cup is our best chance of silverware this season.

However, a win on Sunday will probably change my mind..... again.

[hesbighesred]

Just read the Tomkins piece. It's very hard to know what to make of it since he's, naturally, unable to reveal anything of substance. It's no surprise, therefore, that the two posts above me draw completely opposite conclusions:
'Future brighter than ever'? 'An impossible task for him at this club'? We're just as confused as ever aren't we?    And the Tomkins article adds nothing we don't already know - except perhaps yet more evidence of the limitless reserves of optimism in its author.

It maybe doesn't add much 'new', but it does rather confirm that the Tomkins view of things - the type of analysis he makes of situations, is actually pretty much bang on in terms of Rafa's approach. In that sense it tells us that Tomkins is 'right', if you like, and given Rafa's track record it strikes me that maybe Tomkins shouldn't be dismissed as a mere cheerleader as so many do (I don't mean to suggest that you personally dismiss him as such).

Besides, I don't know about you but it makes me optimistic not to know that Tomkins is feeling optimistic, but that Rafa has still clearly got plenty of energy, enthusiasm and is still doing his absolute best to improve us. That kind of calm and attention to detail also strikes me as exactly the sort of thing we need at the top of the club in the current situation, and even more so with the kind of owners we've been saddled with.

It also shows that any criticism of Rafa made in terms of his transfer record needs to take into account the massive handicaps he's worked under, and it also shows that, contrary to what some still believe, Rafa cares a massive amount about the youth system at the club and treats it with the same importance and attention to detail that he does the first team squad.

As for the opposite conclusions, well, he is working under incredible duress, but at the same time if he can sail us through these choppy waters then, with someone like him in charge, we have great reason for optimism beyond that, no?

[hassinator]

Was it an optical illusion? Is my mind playing tricks on me? Did flicking between masterchef, the ressies and the Milan game not work properly? 'Cos I swear I saw Clarence Seedorf giving 'Wor Xab the run around. At 33.

What a player. That's the kind of experienced, quality, I wish we could add cheaply. Plays fucking everywhere too and is just a class act. Plus he's as good a guarentee of a European Cup win as you can find. Unless you're Inter.

awesome player and i've been banging that drum for a while - gary mac deux?

[lionel_messias]

Here a suggestion for a double transfer from one club, given our problems in midfield:

Steven Defour and Axel Witsel?

Defour the natural all rounder a lot of teams rate and Witsel the nasty destroyer. Improves the squad in that key area, allowing Mascherano to check out for hideous cashmoney and adds some rest/competition for Aquilani?

[hesbighesred]

awesome player and i've been banging that drum for a while - gary mac deux?

He's superb isn't he? He won't be going anywhere though, unfortunately. He's also the only player to win the European Cup at three different clubs, quite and achievement really.

Here a suggestion for a double transfer from one club, given our problems in midfield:

Steven Defour and Axel Witsel?

Defour the natural all rounder a lot of teams rate and Witsel the nasty destroyer. Improves the squad in that key area, allowing Mascherano to check out for hideous cashmoney and adds some rest/competition for Aquilani?

Decent shout that - if Mascherano were sold we could possibly afford both of them with the fee, juuuust about.

[Yorkykopite]

It maybe doesn't add much 'new', but it does rather confirm that the Tomkins view of things - the type of analysis he makes of situations, is actually pretty much bang on in terms of Rafa's approach. In that sense it tells us that Tomkins is 'right', if you like, and given Rafa's track record it strikes me that maybe Tomkins shouldn't be dismissed as a mere cheerleader as so many do (I don't mean to suggest that you personally dismiss him as such).

Besides, I don't know about you but it makes me optimistic not to know that Tomkins is feeling optimistic, but that Rafa has still clearly got plenty of energy, enthusiasm and is still doing his absolute best to improve us. That kind of calm and attention to detail also strikes me as exactly the sort of thing we need at the top of the club in the current situation, and even more so with the kind of owners we've been saddled with.

It also shows that any criticism of Rafa made in terms of his transfer record needs to take into account the massive handicaps he's worked under, and it also shows that, contrary to what some still believe, Rafa cares a massive amount about the youth system at the club and treats it with the same importance and attention to detail that he does the first team squad.

As for the opposite conclusions, well, he is working under incredible duress, but at the same time if he can sail us through these choppy waters then, with someone like him in charge, we have great reason for optimism beyond that, no?

The idea that PT is still optimistic means very little I think. There is something of the Comical Ali about his despatches. You know, "the Americans have been annihilated and her forces are retreating in chaos toward the frontier" a couple of hours before the fall of Baghdad. Having said that I do want to believe him. I want to believe that Rafa is withstanding the pressure that comes from losing 4 important games on the trot because you can imagine anyone beginning to crack a bit under that. 

The stuff about the size of players was odd, wasn't it? Has there ever been a smaller team than Barcelona? Or a greater one? Just hope Pacheco isn't ruled out because he'll lower the team's average size.

[Juan Loco]

The stuff about the size of players was odd, wasn't it? Has there ever been a smaller team than Barcelona? Or a greater one? Just hope Pacheco isn't ruled out because he'll lower the team's average size.

Barcelona don't have to play Stoke, Villa, Everton and so forth every week. They play nice footballing teams who inevitably end up conceding possession and territory at the Nou Camp and just sit back waiting for the goal to come.

I agree with you about the Pacheco bit but the Barcelona thing just isn't comparable. There isn't the same onus on set pieces in La Liga.

[Yorkykopite]

Barcelona don't have to play Stoke, Villa, Everton and so forth every week. They play nice footballing teams who inevitably end up conceding possession and territory at the Nou Camp and just sit back waiting for the goal to come.

Well until Stoke qualify for the Champions League and launch Delap throws at the Barca defence we'll never know I suppose. My guess is that Barca would beat them about 12-0 on aggregate.

Villa - courtesy of our poor form - may however find themselves up against Barca next season. If that happens I wouldn't expect Martin O'Neil to be any more successful with his 'up and at 'em' style than he was at Celtic.