Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[scatman]

I'm not sure about Real, really think La Liga is kind of poor defensively nowadays, seems very easy for them to roll over teams with their stars, but when it comes to the big games, the better "teams" do the job as they are more fluid in movement and passing like Sevilla on the weekend. I'd say this Real team would not cope with the battering we gave to the last Real team last season at Anfield, result would still be the same, or maybe even worse as mentioned above Kaka and Ronaldo don't track back.

[hesbighesred]

This is just from my own observation but sometimes feel he has a loss of focus during the game due to being overrun by emotion/passion.  Yes, I know that is part of the fuel which drives him on but at times, imo, his emotions are in control of him rather than the other way around.  He makes a number of rash decisions, small things but they can be significant, when he is playing like that.

The Mascherano from the other day against Chelsea is the one we need to see more often.  Cool, calm, calculating.  He was completely focused that day and it is so unfortunate he lost that ball in midfield (even though I don't completely blame him, 5 players behind the ball at that time and yet we got beaten by 3 of theirs, wtf) because he would have been the platform which got us at least a result.

Torres is another one who can get rattled and lose focus. 

Ahhh right, sorry, I get you, there is a distinction there and I see what you mean. Just when people say 'discipline' I tend to assume it's at least partly related to fouls, excessive mouthing off, retaliation, that kind of thing, where I think apart from Mash being mouthy he's actually hugely disciplined for a DM. In your terms I think you have a good point - he does sometimes seem to lose focus. He's often mouthy and focussed at the same time but your right, he was very on it against Chelsea and it's great when his drive is targetted like that. Shame about that mistake.

[Sangria]

If Mascherano goes - Momo Sissoko is the guy I would go for...he and Benitez have a good relationship as it is and with Felipe Melo at Juve - Momo could be squeezed out there.

Otherwise Hernanes is leading the next generation of great DMs. Not sure if he would come to Liverpool though over an Italian or Spanish club. Lee Cattermole wouldn't be a bad shout either but his value could be astronomical now given the English premium. Finally Ramires is another Brazillian with very high energy levels who would be a potential Mascherano replacement...

Why not Spearing? His passing is tidy enough to be passable, and all that's needed is someone who is fanatically devoted to the cause. In the little I saw of him in the Madrid game, he did seem to have a knack of winding up the opposition, possibly because they felt insulted to be playing against this 15 year old. If he can continue that even after opponents realise he's a 20-21 year old playing for a proper team, it should go some way towards winning the midfield for his partner. Just send him out there with instructions to make the opponents hate him.

[b_joseph]

Change of subject - Revista last night.

They were talking about Surreal Madrid's lack of balance and inability to compete
in midfield. This after one loss to Sevilla.

Is it fair comment? I know we're studiously avoiding thoughts of Xabi, but how has he done thus far? How are they developing?

They are Real Madrid. They are who everyone expects them to be, all style but not enough substance when you compare them to Barca at the moment.
Doesnt mean that they cant win because they have played for awesome footie this year already but it will require a ton of luck. Casillas gets worked like no other top flight keeper does..its amazing how many times he makes worldie saves for them.
It is odd to watch Kaka be relegated to being a spectator though. They remind me of the US Olympic team of recent years before Beijing. Lots of stars but they dont quite complement each other enough to all play at their maximum level.

On Essien - Kind of amazing how he is clearly Chelsea's best player but you never read anything or hear anything that praises him after a match. IMO, he was the only Chelsea player who stood up to be counted against us and very rarely didn anything wrong, if at all.
He's actually a player I've thought Real Madrid should go for. They always wanted to replace Makelele but with someone of better ball quality, he'd be perfect....He'd Gerrard 2003/04 that league on a weekly basis.

[nocturnalvin]

Change of subject - Revista last night.

They were talking about Surreal Madrid's lack of balance and inability to compete
in midfield. This after one loss to Sevilla.

Is it fair comment? I know we're studiously avoiding thoughts of Xabi, but how has he done thus far? How are they developing?

i have watched Real quite abit mostly with curiosity and of course a certain Xabi does the trick as well. Even while they were raking up straight wins, i don't think they have clicked as a team yet.

Kaka plays the game in a idiosyncratic way that the team has to pretty much be built around him. He likes to come really deep and goes on those rampaging runs. But as he goes on those runs, the rest of the team mostly remain stagnant.
In the earlier games, it looked as if the instructions were simply to pass the ball to Ronaldo and let him do the rest. It has been individual performances rather than a collective effort. Raul will continue to be a touchy issue, and i don't think Pelligrini has the balls to drop him despite the ever improving Higuan and Benzema.

I still rate Barca as the team to beat. Ibra has been crucial, scoring the first goals in quite a few games, and we have yet to see Iniesta in full fitness. Henry looked the closest to his arsenal days. Along the same subject, i doubt Barca would return with a bid for Masch. I think they will go strongly for Fabregas and David Villa the next season.

[Fuzion6]

The best replacement for Mascherano woudl be De Rossi - give you something going forward and is good aerially in set pieces both attacking and defending. However I feel he will never leave Roma.

[sjh]

Hello all. Been reading this thread for ages and have finally managed to sign up so I can post. Great debate everyone. Wanted to share this I came across on the Guardian website...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/oct/07/fabio-capello-england-confederations-cup-report

I normally ignore Kevin McCarra's articles but I was drawn in by his headline about Englands World Cup base given altitude levels in South Africa, and happened to stumble upon a FIFA report on the Confed Cup buried in an article. Now I know most teams were quite poor but it still makes for an interesting read.

The playmaker

Fifa says All of the teams played attacking football. They played with one striker up front and another in a slightly more withdrawn role. To be able to play the ball forward quickly, teams needed central defenders with the ability to launch attacks, but also a "No10", a role expertly performed by stars such as Kaká. As soon as their teams had possession, these players moved into space between the opposition's lines and made themselves available for a pass or spun to face the opponent's goal

Breaking down defences

Fifa says All of the teams favoured a flat back four with zonal marking. They quickly attempted to form a defensive barrier of eight or nine players when the opposing team was in possession to limit the space available to attack. Defences were packed so tightly that teams had to play around them. The favoured option was via the wings - of the 44 goals scored, 21 originated on the wing. Spain's tactic was to play passes forward quickly, with players switching positions before the ball was crossed

Counter-attacks

Fifa says The quality of counter-attacks was vital. Teams switched rapidly between defence and attack, using four or five (rather than one or two) players who all knew their roles. Brazil gave perfect demonstrations of how to switch quickly to attack, move the ball quickly through midfield and play a killer final ball, eg Robinho's goal in their group match against the United States. In a number of situations the opposition were vulnerable after they had not been able to organise their defence correctly

Set pieces decisive

Fifa says The quality of set pieces had a telling effect on many matches. Brazil, in particular, were efficient and precise, so it came as little surprise when the decisive goal in the final [against the United States] came from a corner. Four of Brazil's 10 goals in the group stage came from dead-ball situations, and a direct free-kick from Daniel Alves in the semi-final paved their way. Egypt beat Italy with a header from a corner and the decisive goal in the third-fourth play-off was from a Spain set piece

The two areas of most interest to me are the ball playing centre backs (which I happen to think is our biggest failing so far this season) and set pieces (which I think is our second biggest failing).

As widely discussed Agger can help with the ball playing centre back issue but I still think we need a new centre back who is dominant in the air in both boxes.

I also think height should be a major factor in who we replace Mash with (should we need to). I recall reading somewhere that Rafa doesn't like small players (maybe the Paco Lloret book which I think mentions Rafa knowing players heights by heart) and so I'm surprised when with line up with Insua, Mash, Lucas and Yossi in the same team. I happen to think this is a big reason Riera started against Chelsea. Problem is there aren't many players around who can cover as well as Mash.

[scatman]

welcome sjh, nice post there, it is funny how most of that is quite reminiscent and relevant of our own team, the zonal marking, the way the teams played with a front man supported by a midfielder in the hole (no10) and how defences were packed tightly. Also it's not like our counter attack is very slow...

[killer-heels]

welcome sjh, nice post there, it is funny how most of that is quite reminiscent and relevant of our own team, the zonal marking, the way the teams played with a front man supported by a midfielder in the hole (no10) and how defences were packed tightly. Also it's not like our counter attack is very slow...

Really? I think our counter attacking could and should be much quicker. We may not be helped by the fact that we don't have many pacy players, particularly on the wings. But the likes of Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun, Johnson and Insua show this tendancy, which we need to show more of.

Then again, it doesn't help that Lucas and Mascherano are unable to, when they get posession, carry the ball and play an excellent forward pass. I guess the ability to play this early pass is something we have got worse at with Alonso leaving. Hopefully Aquilani can do this (as well as 100's of other things we are asking of him).

[lionel_messias]

SJH, great first post!

By that article we can see that we need:

AGGER

AQUILANI

and zonal marking is fine, so long as you get a barrier of 8 or 9 players behind when the opp. are attacking.

Oh and if you cannot defend set-pieces (or Score from them) YOU ARE BASICALLY SCREWED!

[Varmenni]

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/technicaldevp/01/09/92/45/ffc09report.pdf

Here is the report

[sjh]

Thanks Varmenni. It's very similar to the UEFA technicain reports which you can find here (right hand sidebar).

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=256/newsid=454570.html

They regularly refer to the importance of fast transitions in these reports i.e. effective counter attacking.

[scatman]

Really? I think our counter attacking could and should be much quicker. We may not be helped by the fact that we don't have many pacy players, particularly on the wings. But the likes of Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun, Johnson and Insua show this tendancy, which we need to show more of.

Then again, it doesn't help that Lucas and Mascherano are unable to, when they get posession, carry the ball and play an excellent forward pass. I guess the ability to play this early pass is something we have got worse at with Alonso leaving. Hopefully Aquilani can do this (as well as 100's of other things we are asking of him).

Heels, i didnt say it was fast either, but I did say it was not slow the last counter attack I remember ending in a goal was against Hull where from a defensive corner we scored pretty much in a few seconds. We don't do it all the time and like you I am hopeful it gets better! Though I'd prefer our team to not have to counter attack and control every single game scoring goals at ease

[royhendo]

Good man SJH - nice to see you, to see you nice.

[redtrev]

OFF TOPIC A LITTLE HERE.

Just being thinking about something lately and would value the people on here opinions

The whole where gerrards best position is thing has been bugging me lately. I ve up till latetly always thought his best position is in the hole behind torres. there link up play is amazing at times rarely seen these days.
but lately considering the season so far and our form i ve had a rethink and think now s the time for a return to center mid. We need a leader now and gerrard needs something to help him explode. for us to win the league we need him now gerrard 2004/2005 is the man we need to get our title fight started. I think he can drive the team on better playing box to box as much as rafa will allow, sliding tackles, using his body strength brushing people aside. Driving into the box with intent a doing his thing. this liftes the team and the fans,sets a high tempo which is absolutely vital for us but is to often absent.

Oh how i wish we had another great player than can link with torres as good i think,. cough..
DIRK

Please give me your thoughts!!

[Degs]

OFF TOPIC A LITTLE HERE.

Just being thinking about something lately and would value the people on here opinions

The whole where gerrards best position is thing has been bugging me lately. I ve up till latetly always thought his best position is in the hole behind torres. there link up play is amazing at times rarely seen these days.
but lately considering the season so far and our form i ve had a rethink and think now s the time for a return to center mid. We need a leader now and gerrard needs something to help him explode. for us to win the league we need him now gerrard 2004/2005 is the man we need to get our title fight started. I think he can drive the team on better playing box to box as much as rafa will allow, sliding tackles, using his body strength brushing people aside. Driving into the box with intent a doing his thing. this liftes the team and the fans,sets a high tempo which is absolutely vital for us but is to often absent.

Oh how i wish we had another great player than can link with torres as good i think,. cough..
DIRK

Please give me your thoughts!!

The thing is that Gerrard doesn't have a BEST position because of how good he is, if you play him on the right wing he's amazing and scores 20 odd, right back and we win the champions league final, off the centre forward and he forms a deadly partnership allowing us to beat the Mancs 4-1.


For me though I like having Stevie in the middle of the park, it's the position where he will see the most action.  Where to play him though doesn't revolve around where HIS best position is but where our worst is.  If you drop him back into centre mid and play Dirk up front who do you play on the right? Yossi, fine but who on the left Riera, Babel? Nah no thanks.

Ideally I'd love to see Stevie and Masch/Lucas in the middle of the park, it would allow Stevie to go on his headless chicken runs while another less attacking midfielder holds station.  Then up top Torres and Babel.  I know people get down on Babel but he's just got that strikers instinct ready to come out, whenever I see him at the match and he's moved up front he fits in, one touch passing and beating a man.  I don't hold the notion that if you're a good centre forward you should be a monster on the wing, let alone on the wrong wing.  Torres played on the right for Atleti and at one point only scored 13 goals in 40 matches (05-06) the same was true in the following season scoring only 15 again in 40 matches.  Compare that to the 33 goals in 46 games in his first season here and you see the difference.

Having Masch, 2 centre halves, and the energiser bunny Dirk Kuyt to run back I honestly don't think we'd be top heavy and while we're often credited with creating alot of chances we squander far too many by hoping for the extravagant when an easy ball would suffice.  People say Torres doesn't need a partner, that he needs somebody behind him but I point to David Villa and the unselfish nature of Torres in a Spain shirt.

It would give our attack such a boost to have 3 actually pacey players running at defences as it stands now we have Torres and then Stevie 20 yards back looking for that killer pass. 

We were playing 4-4-2/4-3-3 before we played Fiorentina and Chelsea but we got scared, we put the stoppers on the fullbacks and shifted to last years shape. It didn't work, Stevie and Torres were isolated as the wide men were having to create everything on their own as Masch and Lucas were generally just passing sideways (although Lucas did get some good balls forward but not enough) and the full backs were stuck backwards (less so against Chelsea).

I think with the 4-2-3-1 we can dominate possession but the problem with that is that we don't have the players to do something with it, Carragher and Skrtel pass it to each other or 300 feet in the air and Lucas and Mach won't go forward and take on players when we're in that formation.  Every single out ball we produce comes from out wide and as a result it's a hopeful cross into the box against Chelsea giants.

Ina  perfect world for me Aquilani comes in and does exactly what Gerrard does in the middle of the park and allows Stevie to stay further forward but until he laces up his boots then that drive that forward momentum we miss with Alonso gone has to be filled either by Lucas and Stevie together or by a free Stevie and a holding station Masch.

Now:
------------------Masch--------
---Kuyt--------------------Yossi
--------Gerrard------------------

-----------Babel----Torres------

Later:

-----------------Masch-------
--------Aquilani---------------

--Kuyt-------------------Yossi
------------Gerrard------------

--------------Torres-----------

So in answer to your question Stevie's best position is that big green rectangle in the middle fo the ground.

[socrates the sophist]

We were playing 4-4-2/4-3-3 before we played Fiorentina and Chelsea but we got scared, we put the stoppers on the fullbacks and shifted to last years shape. It didn't work, Stevie and Torres were isolated as the wide men were having to create everything on their own as Masch and Lucas were generally just passing sideways (although Lucas did get some good balls forward but not enough) and the full backs were stuck backwards (less so against Chelsea).

I don't think the full backs became more defensive because we are scared per say, I think it is because Rafa found out that we cannot support that system yet, from the defensive point of view (surprisingly).
When Johnson in particular goes forward, there is a lot of room for Carra to cover. I think the games against Bolton and West ham has convinced Rafa that Carra and Johnson can't play on the same side. Hence Carra was moved to the left channel. But with Mascherano still inefficient (although he had a great game st the bridge), it is still a bit difficult for the CBs to cover the full backs, hence our full-backs have to be a bit more defensive minded for now. It will be interesting to see what happens when agger is fully fit.

[Roger Federer]

Ideally I'd love to see Stevie and Masch/Lucas in the middle of the park, it would allow Stevie to go on his headless chicken runs while another less attacking midfielder holds station.

I'm sorry that I quote just this one thing from your long and well-argued post, but how are 'headless chicken runs' something positive? To not know when and where to run is as big a weakness a CM can have, and although Gerrard is a very good midfielder, his decision-making and positioning are the reasons why I think a more forward and free role behind Torres is his best, for him and the team.

But, I can see why you think Gerrard is needed in central midfield until Aqulani is fit again. Not sure I agree fully, I believe we'll see the team improve more from an upturn in Gerrard's form, rather than a change of his position.

 

[Yorkykopite]

I'm sorry that I quote just this one thing from your long and well-argued post, but how are 'headless chicken runs' something positive? To not know when and where to run is as big a weakness a CM can have, and although Gerrard is a very good midfielder, his decision-making and positioning are the reasons why I think a more forward and free role behind Torres is his best, for him and the team.

So do I. Gerrard is an instinctive player. He is brilliantly reactive and plays his best football when he doesn't have time to think. Therefore the further forward he plays the more devastating he is. In central midfield you'll never get the best out of him. Discipline and a certain amount of time on the ball just don't suit the lad. When he has to think about a pass he tends to mess it up. When he has to weigh his options and think through where to run he often makes surprisingly wrong-headed choices. And being Stevie, the other players sort of go along with them. Under Rafa he's been best either 'in the hole' or on the right wing. I wouldn't mind seeing him play on the right again, although that would mean dropping Dirk Kuyt (who's no good at all behind Torres). 

[Degs]

I'm sorry that I quote just this one thing from your long and well-argued post, but how are 'headless chicken runs' something positive? To not know when and where to run is as big a weakness a CM can have, and although Gerrard is a very good midfielder, his decision-making and positioning are the reasons why I think a more forward and free role behind Torres is his best, for him and the team.

But, I can see why you think Gerrard is needed in central midfield until Aqulani is fit again. Not sure I agree fully, I believe we'll see the team improve more from an upturn in Gerrard's form, rather than a change of his position.

So do I. Gerrard is an instinctive player. He is brilliantly reactive and plays his best football when he doesn't have time to think. Therefore the further forward he plays the more devastating he is. In central midfield you'll never get the best out of him. Discipline and a certain amount of time on the ball just don't suit the lad. When he has to think about a pass he tends to mess it up. When he has to weigh his options and think through where to run he often makes surprisingly wrong-headed choices. And being Stevie, the other players sort of go along with them. Under Rafa he's been best either 'in the hole' or on the right wing. I wouldn't mind seeing him play on the right again, although that would mean dropping Dirk Kuyt (who's no good at all behind Torres). 

This was the crux of my argument though lads, at the minute we're lacking a driving force from midfield, and when we've looked our best this season it's when Stevie's dropped back as part of a 3 (vs. Stoke) or played in the middle alongside somebody else in a 4-4-2 (Burnley, Hull).

Ideally you want Stevie behind Torres and being instinctive, devastating etc. unleashing his natural firepower and slick passing.  Without the balls coming from behind him though (oooh matron) he's as useless as the Pope's dick.  Chelsea was a fine example, nothing came through to Stevie, Masch and Lucas passed it between each other before passing it out wide, the ball was then flung in from the touchline and Stevie had to fight for any scraps Torres could knock down.

Like I say if Aquilani can hold his shape and be disciplined in the midfield he'll be a better option than Stevie is but until he's fit and playing a few matches then I'd rather have Stevie's mental runs from box to box, his 30 yard passes forward and his crunching tackles in the middle than the lack of creativity we have now because at the minute we're doing Gerrard and Torres a disservice by giving them almost no service.

Until then I'd rather have Stevie trying to make right and wrong choices than making no choices at all.

Yes in a perfect world he's right behind Torres forming the deadly partnership but with Skrtel, Carragher, Masch, and Lucas offering little to nothing in the way of forward motion there's a massive vacuum that he can fill even if he's not perfect at it (which he isn't) and runs about like a headless chicken.  I don't want him to stay there, I want Aquialni to be fucking boss but that's wishful thinking for now.
 

[Varmenni]

Masch and Lucas passed it between each other before passing it out wide

Which pass are you referring to? The one from Lucas to Mascherano, the Mascherano to Lucas at 10 minutes in or the one after 52 minutes?

Or possibly all three

[-Daws-]

Evening people

New look RAWK eh? How adorable.

It’s funny. When we sold Xabi and signed Aquilani, I like many others, was expecting to see us switch to the more fluid 4-3-3, but to be honest I’m not sure we have really seen that as often as expected. I was expecting to see Stevie dropped onto the right side of that 3 man midfield and share the load with Aqui/Lucas of getting up and down the pitch. I certainly think given a free role from there that we’ll see the best of him, channelling his running up and down the pitch with the freedom to be the most attacking midfielder of the three, rather than being restricted to supporting Torres constantly and playing more across the pitch than up and down it.

I’ve stated my reasons during the summer, as to why I think this will get the best out of Gerrard, almost right in between playing as a right sided player and behind Torres on the right of a three man midfield; Channelling that energy up and down the park rather from side to side with his back to goal an awful lot (as tends to be the case playing behind Nando). I thought this was the system Rafa wanted to switch too as well.

Now we have seen cases of Lucas and Gerrard mixing it up every now and again, but I’d still say from what I have seen, that Gerrard’s starting position is behind Torres, and Lucas just behind/next to Mascherano, like Xabi used to be. Not sure why this is, or why we chose to sign Aquilani instead of a more direct replacement for Xabi if Rafa wanted to stick too our old system. It’s hard to put your finger on and to be honest I’ve been a busy boy the last few months and haven't seen as many games as I'd like. My only though is, maybe Javier hasn’t adapted to his more playmaking role well enough, and therefore Lucas is dropping in next to him to try and share that burden of responsibility. Nevertheless I’m unconvinced we are able to play 4-2-3-1 without Xabi, because we haven’t got his passing abilty to spread the game as much and the likes of Gerrard can’t find the space because the wingers are tucking in too get involved more. It’s hard to put you’re finger on really, and because I’ve been a busy boy the last few month, I haven’t seen as many games as usual. But something’s different. Something isn’t quite right. And I don't think dropping Gerrard into the middle on a regular basis will solve that. He hasn't looked any better in there than Masch or Lucas (who has been the most consistant of th three).

Anyway, Just to throw something out there and maybe take the impetus off of the Gerrard and his best position subject (it’s been done to death, and we all have different opinions which we tend to stick too). I was thinking t’other night about how year on year, we seem to solve one problem, and develop another.

For instance, last season we were very good against the big sides and couldn’t beat the smaller teams. That’s completely switched. We’ve gone from being shocking defensively with zonal marking, to being solid at the back, to shocking defensively again over the course of the last few seasons. We suffered maybe from too much rotation in Rafa’s first season, now we have a better squad we don’t seem to use it as much (FI – If Rafa wasn’t a huge fan of a player a few years back, they’d still get games so we could rest players, we don’t see that as often now and we have better players). We couldn’t score enough goals in Rafa’s early years, now we can’t stop scoring. Rafa’s first season, we couldn’t do anything away from home but were a force at Anfield, the next year that switched, and does pretty much every season.

Is there something in this? Or have I just imagined it/smoked to much weed the last few years?

[nocturnalvin]

nice new look i thought, nice job from the admins.

i share the same observation Daws, but thats how it has been in football. There is no such thing as final piece in the jigsaw. We thought we did when we signed the self-proclaimed governor in Paul Ince but we didn't.

I recently commented that the spine that was so good last couple of years, right down the middle, is suddenly looking frail. Torres will get fitter mentally i am sure, but Lucas and Masch still leave us doubting. Carra and Skrtel though leave us with no doubt that it is shaky. Suddenly the flanks doesn't seem like an issue anymore with the form of Yossi, and the addition of Johnson. Kuyt was fantastic the last part of last season, and started the season scoring goals. Its still debatable if Kuyt remains the best choice going forward on the right though.

Chelsea looks the most formidable, not because they are so bloody impressive. I somewhat think the quality of the top 4 this season has fallen, but chelsea remains strong because its the same group that has played together for a long time. I even think that the manager didnt really have to do much to get them going. Scolari was poor at a European club level, yet Chelsea seem to get going until the internal thing erupted, they were never too far away last season. Even Avram Grant got them going strong for most part of his tenure. Its just the same players, albeit same strong players.

the African Nations Cup will cause them problems, but as some of us have noticed, they are not playing the top teams during that period in January. My only concern is if we can keep up until then. Stevie needs to, regardless of his position, get back to his consistent self real quick if that is to happen.

And i do have a feeling that Rafa fails to challenge this season, dumb & dumber will likely make him leave. That is scary.

[abhred]

And i do have a feeling that Rafa fails to challenge this season, dumb & dumber will likely make him leave. That is scary.

Scary as it might be, challenging is the very least we should achieve this season. No doubt about that. If we don't, it will be a failed season, and that's after 6 years under Rafa.

[nocturnalvin]

Scary as it might be, challenging is the very least we should achieve this season. No doubt about that. If we don't, it will be a failed season, and that's after 6 years under Rafa.

absolutely. It should be considered a failure despite mitigating reasons.

[b_joseph]

Degs - Thats partly on Stevie to improve his game ( the DVD thing is a great sign ). If nothing is getting through to him, it is up to him to move into various areas to make himself effective. Its a shame that he came into this new position so late in his career and his lack of familiarity shows up sometimes and manifests itself in some performances that arent good or bad, just very vanilla.

If I was him, I'd pull out to the left when things arent going well and try to cut infield when on the ball...Kaka was very good at this in Milan.

[Vulmea]

Not sure its 'cycles' think its just the fact we haven't won the title and its one excuse after another - performances against the top 4, attacking away from home, a good start, win your home games - if United had dropped four more points we'd be saying fortress anfield won us the title and we didn't lose at home all season

zonal marking is just a self fulfilling prophecy

we need to concentrate on winning the next game - one game at a time -  everything else is a statistic which can be bent to prove whatever point you want

we'll always be one piece short until we win the title

[bigbear]

absolutely. It should be considered a failure despite mitigating reasons.

I don't buy that.

When Benitez took over I had no hope whatsoever that we'd become the side we have (well there's always hope) or attract the players he has.

I never thought I'd see us in the semi final of the Champions League let alone do that almost every year and get in two finals.

However, like all human nature, when you're given something better than you've ever had, after a moment of being grateful we want more.

With an ounce more luck last year we could have won the title and we are among the contenders again. If we're not at least under Rafa I am confident we will be next year.

[blackshuck]

Hey there Level 3ers,

I'll start off by saying this thread is awesome.  I've only just been able to register but have read the entire thread plus the RM book and more.

A thought that was triggered by the mentioning of 'cycles' was also the effect of the international breaks on our squad. I'm in a bind especially this current one because the Dutchies came all the way down here to Australia for a friendly, which helps a lot with the growth of the game in this country BUT Dirk and Babel will also suffer from having to travel so far to only play 45 minutes each (Babel came on for Dirk at half-time).  Plus it also seems that Torres and Gerrard are carrying groin injuries while with their international teams and Lucas and Mascherano having to travel to South America also.

Is there any kind of statistical analysis by the boffins out there that indicates the effect on our previous seasons?  I'm sure Rafa has mentioned before how frustrating it is for him.  I think I remember someone saying that our Champions League form was often unaffected but our league form did suffer?

Do you think this international break will benefit us this time around following a few less than favourable results?  Or will it hinder the our moves towards a more fluid system of play?

[Joe_Singh]

Hey there Level 3ers,

I'll start off by saying this thread is awesome.  I've only just been able to register but have read the entire thread plus the RM book and more.

A thought that was triggered by the mentioning of 'cycles' was also the effect of the international breaks on our squad. I'm in a bind especially this current one because the Dutchies came all the way down here to Australia for a friendly, which helps a lot with the growth of the game in this country BUT Dirk and Babel will also suffer from having to travel so far to only play 45 minutes each (Babel came on for Dirk at half-time).  Plus it also seems that Torres and Gerrard are carrying groin injuries while with their international teams and Lucas and Mascherano having to travel to South America also.

Is there any kind of statistical analysis by the boffins out there that indicates the effect on our previous seasons?  I'm sure Rafa has mentioned before how frustrating it is for him.  I think I remember someone saying that our Champions League form was often unaffected but our league form did suffer?

Do you think this international break will benefit us this time around following a few less than favourable results?  Or will it hinder the our moves towards a more fluid system of play?

One thing I will say is that there is definitely a difference in mindset between ourselves and yernited for example. I mean if you take a look at this break for instance Gerrard is checked out by the England physios yet Rooney gets to go back to yernited. I do think that relationships are being worked on by Rafa as he has mentioned he has spoken to the Danish guys regarding Agger and the Dutch regarding the Australia trip. I think its also the mindset of the players themselves too, I think Mr. Ferguson has managed to get trhough to his players as to what to do in what scenarios.

[Yorkykopite]

I've just seen the new Xabi Alonso. That's the good news. The bad news is that he's 35. Anyone else sit there admiring Kulchy for Belarus tonight. What a player.

Don't think the ITV commentators mentioned him once. 

[lomokompakt]

very very 2 footed as well.

mind you he had a CM partner and a defence who's willing to pass him all the time.

very very interesting to watch Belarus play. their idea of short passing game is wonderful to watch at times, and utterly frustrating when it didnt work.

[socrates the sophist]

I've just seen the new Xabi Alonso. That's the good news. The bad news is that he's 35. Anyone else sit there admiring Kulchy for Belarus tonight. What a player.

Don't think the ITV commentators mentioned him once. 

Who are the two players you're referring to? sorry to come across as stupid

[RedMichelFerri]

Who are the two players you're referring to? sorry to come across as stupid

He is referring to Kulchy of Belarus whose style reminded him of Xabi but he is 35 year old.

[Yorkykopite]

very very 2 footed as well.

mind you he had a CM partner and a defence who's willing to pass him all the time.

very very interesting to watch Belarus play. their idea of short passing game is wonderful to watch at times, and utterly frustrating when it didnt work.

Yes, the whole team was a bit underpowered and seemed unable to change gear. But Kulchy's movement off the ball and the fact that he had Xabi-like eyes in the back of the head meant it was impossible NOT to pass to him. He was simply always there to help a teammate running out of space. (There was a bloke on the other side, Barry I think he's called, who looked like a schoolkid in comparison).

He played for Dinamo Moscow for a few years but other than that has messed around in the Russian league with second-grade teams. Does anyone know much about him?   

[Roger Federer]

Found this article about the 'Danish Dynamite' - team of the 80's yesterday, and it's a (very, very) long and, in my opinion, brilliant read. I'm too young to remember anything from -84 or -86, but Michael Laudrup was something of an idol growing up, and a fantastic player in the early 90's for Barcelona, so I soon found out about this - in Denmark atleast - mythical team, that a young Laudrup was a very influential part of. And even though we here in Sweden are supposed to dislike our neighbours across the water, I have always admired them for their style of play (as big a contrast to Sweden's as you can get), and carefree attitude on the pitch (which probably stood in their way of success, as the manager Piontek remarked after he quit/got fired) .

Hope everyone enjoys the article as much as I did: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/oct/13/forgotten-story-denmark-1980s

This is an introduction to the players that took part: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/oct/13/danish-dynamite-the-players

[Sangria]

Found this article about the 'Danish Dynamite' - team of the 80's yesterday, and it's a (very, very) long and, in my opinion, brilliant read. I'm too young to remember anything from -84 or -86, but Michael Laudrup was something of an idol growing up, and a fantastic player in the early 90's for Barcelona, so I soon found out about this - in Denmark atleast - mythical team, that a young Laudrup was a very influential part of.

The boy's a genius. The Soviet side from that time was another impossibly cool side. Not something I appreciated at the time, but the admiration grew with my understanding of the game. Mexico 86 was a showpiece of cool in general, with the Brazilians and the French as well.

[Roger Federer]

The boy's a genius. The Soviet side from that time was another impossibly cool side. Not something I appreciated at the time, but the admiration grew with my understanding of the game. Mexico 86 was a showpiece of cool in general, with the Brazilians and the French as well.

Indeed he was. Perhaps the best player Liverpool have ever missed out on. He was supposed to sign in the early 80's, but had a change of heart and opted for Juventus instead. Probably for the best - who knows how he would have evolved as a player in the shadow of King Kenny.

Denmark met the Soviets in a very important World Cup-qualifier in -85, a game described in the article by our own Molby (who was on the bench) as "the best match I've ever seen", and by Laudrup simply as "the game". It ended 4-2 in favour of the Danes, extended highlights can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txn6AZnnqhI and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDSnTKANru8&feature=related

[armchair-fan]

I had almost forgotten about that Danish team.  Mexico '86 was the first World Cup I was old enough to watch and I really wanted Denmark to go well as Jan Molby was my hero.  I realised they must be a good side as he wasn't an automatic first teamer for them.  Have to say I also loved their kit from that era.  Funny to see Frank Arnesen in those clips, I hadn't appreciated he was such a good player in his day, just tend to think of him in his Chelsea role of recent years.

[hassinator]

Indeed he was. Perhaps the best player Liverpool have ever missed out on. He was supposed to sign in the early 80's, but had a change of heart and opted for Juventus instead. Probably for the best - who knows how he would have evolved as a player in the shadow of King Kenny.

Denmark met the Soviets in a very important World Cup-qualifier in -85, a game described in the article by our own Molby (who was on the bench) as "the best match I've ever seen", and by Laudrup simply as "the game". It ended 4-2 in favour of the Danes, extended highlights can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txn6AZnnqhI and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDSnTKANru8&feature=related

not sure what would possibly have gone wrong under king kenny but he went to juve because they offered him four times as much as us in wages.

oh how the game has changed since then and he would indeed have been superb playing behind rushie.

EDIT: armchair fan that danish kit was indeed superb.