Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

The FA's Statement:
"It is alleged that Suárez used abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour towards Manchester United's Patrice Evra contrary to FA rules. It is further alleged that this included a reference to the ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race of Patrice Evra."

Liverpool FC's Response:
"We will discuss the matter fully with him when he returns from international duty, but he will plead not guilty to the charge and we expect him to request a personal hearing.  Luis remains determined to clear his name of the allegation made against him by Patrice Evra.  The Club remain fully supportive of Luis in this matter."

http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/Disciplinary/NewsAndFeatures/2011/luis-suarez-20-12-11
"An independent regulatory commission has found a charge of misconduct against Luis Suárez proven, and have issued a suspension for a period of eight matches as well as fining him £40,000, pending appeal. The decision is as follows:[/size]
• Mr Suárez used insulting words towards Mr Evra during the match contrary to FA Rule E3(1);[/size]
• The insulting words used by Mr Suárez included a reference to Mr Evra's colour;[/size]
• Mr Suárez shall be warned as to his future conduct, be suspended for eight matches covering all first-team competitive matches and fined the sum of £40,000;[/size]
• The [penalty] is suspended pending the outcome of any appeal lodged by Mr Suárez.[/size]
"Mr Suárez has the right to appeal. An appeal must be lodged within 14 days of the date of the written reasons for the decision. The penalty is suspended until after the outcome of any appeal, or the time for appealing expires, or should Mr Suárez decide not to appeal."

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/liverpool-fc-statement-20-12-11 [/size]
Liverpool Football Club is very surprised and disappointed with the decision of the Football Association Commission to find Luis Suarez guilty of the charges against him.We look forward to the publication of the Commission's Judgment.  We will study the detailed reasons of the Commission once they become available, but reserve our right to appeal or take any other course of action we feel appropriate with regards to this situation.

We find it extraordinary that Luis can be found guilty on the word of Patrice Evra alone when no-one else on the field of play - including Evra's own Manchester United teammates and all the match officials - heard the alleged conversation between the two players in a crowded Kop goalmouth while a corner kick was about to be taken.

The Club takes extremely seriously the fight against all forms of discrimination and has a long and successful track record in work relating to anti-racist activity and social inclusion.  We remain committed to this ideal and equality for all, irrespective of a person's background.

LFC considers racism in any form to be unacceptable - without compromise.  It is our strong held belief, having gone over the facts of the case, that Luis Suarez did not commit any racist act.  It is also our opinion that the accusation by this particular player was not credible - certainly no more credible than his prior unfounded accusations.

It is key to note that Patrice Evra himself in his written statement in this case said 'I don't think that Luis Suarez is racist'.  The FA in their opening remarks accepted that Luis Suarez was not racist.

Luis himself is of a mixed race family background as his grandfather was black.  He has been personally involved since the 2010 World Cup in a charitable project which uses sport to encourage solidarity amongst people of different backgrounds with the central theme that the colour of a person's skin does not matter; they can all play together as a team.

He has played with black players and mixed with their families whilst with the Uruguay national side and was Captain at Ajax Amsterdam of a team with a proud multi-cultural profile, many of whom became good friends.

It seems incredible to us that a player of mixed heritage should be accused and found guilty in the way he has based on the evidence presented. We do not recognise the way in which Luis Suarez has been characterised.

It appears to us that the FA were determined to bring charges against Luis Suarez, even before interviewing him at the beginning of November. Nothing we have heard in the course of the hearing has changed our view that Luis Suarez is innocent of the charges brought against him and we will provide Luis with whatever support he now needs to clear his name.

We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms.  Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult.[/size]


This thread is for discussion of the above but here are a few ground rules:
1.  Please try to avoid baseless speculation.
2.  As ever, no abuse, be that of other users or any of the parties involved in this case
3.  This is a heavily moderated thread, posts that do not really add to the discussion or are deemed to be inflammatory or defamatory may well be removed.

We will endeavour to keep this first post updated with news and relevant information as thing progress (other mods feel free to jump in and add / edit as required).

[Matt8Pie]

Where is it said that the case will be in 4 weeks time? Is that for definite?

[Passmaster Molby]

The key here for the FA now is the context behind Suarez comments, and this hearing is where Luis will get the opportunity to explain his reasoning for using the term he has admitted using.

If he can prove to the FA that the term in his mother language has a totally different meaning to what it does in english (does the word exists in the Oxford dictionary?) then how can they find him guilty?

To find Suarez guilty, they will need to prove that he used the term to undermine and insult Patrice Evra, and that is why I feel the club are backing Luis' argument to the hilt because they know the term was not used in a derogatory manner.

[NANDO09]

Can suarez play before the court case?

[Cruiser]

Can suarez play before the court case?

Of course he can, theres no ban on him. He hasn't been proven guilty of anything.

[stevo7]

The one thing I don't like about this is the word 'charge'. When people are charged with something they seem to have to carry aroungd the stigma of the 'charge' even when found innocent.

Couldnt the FA have said we are convening a 'hearing' to hear both sides of the allegations? (which in a sense they are).

 

[rushyman]

I would like to know why this has reached this stage. It will stun you to know Im no great legal mind, so id like to know why it went from an investigation to this stage. Has a witness come forward etc?

Apologies if any of the aforementioned has been covered VdM or I am missing the woods for the trees which is a very big possibility

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I would like to know why this has reached this stage. It will stun you to know Im no great legal mind, so id like to know why it went from an investigation to this stage. Has a witness come forward etc?

Apologies if any of the aforementioned has been covered VdM or I am missing the woods for the trees which is a very big possibility

It's a good question.  I think the honest answer is that nobody outside those directly involved really knows.

[Fruity]

Where is the evidence that he used the word "Negrito". Unless anyone can show a link etc surely its all speculation

[rushyman]

It's a good question.  I think the honest answer is that nobody outside those directly involved really knows.

Thanks mate

I do hope its not a case of 'come on lads Ive got no back up here, just say you heard him' or similar within the club. I never thought I could hate united more.  That would do the trick if is the case

And to think Demento said before the game it was time for a bit of peace between the two. This could do irreversible damage, whatever thread of a bridge is left it could be set ablaze by cannon fire over the next month or so

[4pool]

No one knows what word(s) Luis is alleged to have uttered on the pitch. The media have speculated with the help of Mr. Ferguson.

All Luis has claimed is he called Patrice Evra a name his own team mates call him.

So answer for yourself, do the likes of Rio, Nani, etc call Patrice the word used in the media. And if they do then it might be claimed Mr. Ferguson has also called Patrice that name. Whether in jest or not because everyone else calls him that at Man Utd..

[lfcbabe1984]

I'd like to see the evidence for myself so that I can make an informed decision. Either way I will support Luis as I know the term was not used with any malice behind it.

[rocco]

Where is the evidence that he used the word "Negrito". Unless anyone can show a link etc surely its all speculation

There none .

[Kwaideng]

No one knows what word(s) Luis is alleged to have uttered on the pitch. The media have speculated with the help of Mr. Ferguson.

All Luis has claimed is he called Patrice Evra a name his own team mates call him.

So answer for yourself, do the likes of Rio, Nani, etc call Patrice the word used in the media. And if they do then it might be claimed Mr. Ferguson has also called Patrice that name. Whether in jest or not because everyone else calls him that at Man Utd..

Almost  exactly  just what I was about to post mate.

Is there any chance that someone could shut that big mouthed twat Ferdinand up on twitter.

Every day he is giving it the verbals about something.

 I don't read/follow  all that   twitter  shite  but it seems that journalism has sunk so low these days that they just copy and paste off facebook and twitter  and its on the fucking TV  news at six etc.

[richmond-red]

In previous threads on this subject I have seen excellent posts defining the difference between "charged" and "guilty". Unfortunately, for the large majority of football fans on other club forums/fora, and 100% of the "popular" media, the two words are synonymous in Luis's case. I fear that, no matter what the verdict, he will carry this "racist" label for the rest of his career in England.

[Fiasco]

The actual claims that he used the word ' negrito ' are totally uncorroborated, so on that basis there is actually no evidence or no possible explanation, either. I still don't understand how you can charge someone with a racial offense without any significant evidence. For all we know, and there is almost certainly things we don't know about involving this case, at the minute it is one persons word against somebody elses.

Another thing that has been put out there is that he's also being charged with offensive language, not racial, which could mean him calling him one of 100 degratory names. So Suarez is the only one to do that? It happens in every single game in every single league every weekend without fail. Any amateur league, anything it happens so why signal out Suarez? Hell, even the referees are subject to abuse from players in most games themselves. Football in this country is an absolute joke and the dealings of issues on and off the pitch get worse and worse each year. It's only my eternal love for this club that keeps me going.

[MiddleMan]

shame, this. however, i do think it will propel him to new heights as a player. if he has the personality i think he has, he likes to prove people wrong and show his worth on the pitch. best way to shut people up is to make your name as one of the best players in the world.

he will.

[Red_Rich]

I would like to know why this has reached this stage. It will stun you to know Im no great legal mind, so id like to know why it went from an investigation to this stage. Has a witness come forward etc?

It is my belief that Evra had no evidence ... until Luis gave him a glimmer of some by admitting the use of the word Negrito.

It's now up to the FA to decide whether or not Suarez meant this as a racist remark and whether it's enough to warrant Evra's complaint.

[TheTeflonJohn]

shame, this. however, i do think it will propel him to new heights as a player. if he has the personality i think he has, he likes to prove people wrong and show his worth on the pitch. best way to shut people up is to make your name as one of the best players in the world.

he will.

Spot on

[Chakan]

It is my belief that Evra had no evidence ... until Luis gave him a glimmer of some by admitting the use of the word Negrito.

It's now up to the FA to decide whether or not Suarez meant this as a racist remark and whether Evra, obviously taking it as a racist remark, is warranted.

He didn't even admit that, the press and Ferguson inferred it from what Luis said.

[TheTeflonJohn]

He didn't even admit that, the press and Ferguson inferred it from what Luis said.

This is were I am a bit lost. Has Luis admitted saying this? People keep saying he admitted it and some are saying he didn`t

[Chakan]

This is were I am a bit lost. Has Luis admitted saying this? People keep saying he admitted it and some are saying he didn`t

What Luis said was that he only called Evra what his teammates called him. He never said he used the word "Negrito". The Press and Ferguson inferred it from that.

[R.A.La]

The FA's Statement:
"It is alleged that Suárez used abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour towards Manchester United's Patrice Evra contrary to FA rules.

Has any other player ever been charged with this towards another player?

[TheTeflonJohn]

What Luis said was that he only called Evra what his teammates called him. He never said he used the word "Negrito". The Press and Ferguson inferred it from that.

Got it.

Cheers mate

[rob1408]

This is were I am a bit lost. Has Luis admitted saying this? People keep saying he admitted it and some are saying he didn`t

He's admitted saying something, something he believes isn't racist.  It's just speculation as to what the word is, Ferguson's lapdog at The Guardian has said it's 'negrito'.

[Alan_X]

Can people stop debating a word that may or may not have been used.

[smitalfc]

Quote from: Red_Potato on Today at 06:05:58 PM

That's dentalist! You dentalist bastard!
This discussion on racism is nonsense. Racism is the persecution of someone due to a physical / cultural attribute.
Racism used to be really series shit like getting shot, lynched, beaten, burned out of your house, or slightly less serious shit like being denied rights like voting, optimal public health care - demoted to a second class citizen in general.
Without meaning to piss anyone off, but a bit of name calling on a football pitch isn't really the racism that Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela was concerned about. Slagging someone's physical attributes in a team sport is common place. Not necessarily pleasant at times, but not a hanging offense. Look at Peter Crouch - every commentator has to mention his height in some way or other every time he does something on the pitch. What if every commentator mentioned a persons skin colour every time they got the ball? There would be outrage.
I think the racism issue has become so over sensitized, that it's now bordering on the ridiculous, which is actually detrimental to anti-racism causes. It means racist issues cannot even be discussed in civil debate. You cannot even argue for ethnic minorities to obey national laws without being immediately defeated by being called a racist.
I was in a pub one evening and some fucker from London looked at me and said "hey shorty" to get a few cheap laughs for him and his mates. I'm 6ft 9in so you could see what he was (predictably) trying to do. I looked at him and said "alright snowflake" - he was black, so it was a like-for-like exchange. He went fucking mental.
I think everyone needs to reflect on what racism really is. It's so much more than name calling - millions of Africans and there global cousins will tell you the true evil meaning of racism. Wars for rights were not fought simply because black people were tired of being called names.
Evra should just fuck off, grow a pair of balls, and reply in kind to Luis - bugs bunny maybe, the tooth fairy, or what about just a
buck-toothed fucker?
By the way, one of my best mates is an Indian chick, so anyone who wants to call me racist can fuck right off.

Excellent post from the other thread sums up my thoughts perfectly.   

Hmm. Not so sure myself.

I'm not talking about the Suarez Evra thing here because I don't know what happened there. But as a general proposition:

There is a difference between good natured consensual banter that may refer to someone's colour, and repeated name-calling which refers to someone's colour. The latter is discrimination in my view,  because it is designed to distress, disturb, undermine and generally generate discomfort in that person on the grounds of their colour.

As for suggesting that it is the same as calling someone a name because of another physical attribute e.g. height or weight,  isn't
it the case that people normally pick on am attribute that is considered unusual  I.e being too tall or too fat or too thin. So is it being suggested suggested that skin colour other than white  is unusual or comment worthy in the same way as extremes of height or weight?

[McSquared]

Suarez should have, and from now on should not say another word on the matter. I know he is trying to allude to his innocence  by saying what he has already (just the comment about what his team mates call him), but he should realize that the agenda driven press, united and FA (speculation?) are waiting for anything to jump on and spin against him. Media already talking up his forthcoming 6 game ban today :-/

[Fiasco]

The FA's Statement:
"It is alleged that Suárez used abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour towards Manchester United's Patrice Evra contrary to FA rules.

Has any other player ever been charged with this towards another player?

They probably have but it isn't common place. What I susepct there though his that is merely a back-up option, he's going to be charged with abusive language regardless, and if they can get the racist one to go with it then they will. If not, well nasty little Suarez called a grown-up man a dickhead on the pitch and we're fining/suspending him for it. It's a joke.

[redk84]

Quote from: Red_Potato on Today at 06:05:58 PM

That's dentalist! You dentalist bastard!
This discussion on racism is nonsense. Racism is the persecution of someone due to a physical / cultural attribute.
Racism used to be really series shit like getting shot, lynched, beaten, burned out of your house, or slightly less serious shit like being denied rights like voting, optimal public health care - demoted to a second class citizen in general.
Without meaning to piss anyone off, but a bit of name calling on a football pitch isn't really the racism that Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela was concerned about. Slagging someone's physical attributes in a team sport is common place. Not necessarily pleasant at times, but not a hanging offense. Look at Peter Crouch - every commentator has to mention his height in some way or other every time he does something on the pitch. What if every commentator mentioned a persons skin colour every time they got the ball? There would be outrage.
I think the racism issue has become so over sensitized, that it's now bordering on the ridiculous, which is actually detrimental to anti-racism causes. It means racist issues cannot even be discussed in civil debate. You cannot even argue for ethnic minorities to obey national laws without being immediately defeated by being called a racist.
I was in a pub one evening and some fucker from London looked at me and said "hey shorty" to get a few cheap laughs for him and his mates. I'm 6ft 9in so you could see what he was (predictably) trying to do. I looked at him and said "alright snowflake" - he was black, so it was a like-for-like exchange. He went fucking mental.
I think everyone needs to reflect on what racism really is. It's so much more than name calling - millions of Africans and there global cousins will tell you the true evil meaning of racism. Wars for rights were not fought simply because black people were tired of being called names.
Evra should just fuck off, grow a pair of balls, and reply in kind to Luis - bugs bunny maybe, the tooth fairy, or what about just a buck-toothed fucker?
By the way, one of my best mates is an Indian chick, so anyone who wants to call me racist can fuck right off.

Excellent post from the other thread sums up my thoughts perfectly.   

But, I fear Suarez is doomed.  The media feeding frenzy will take over like it does so often.  There is a whole industry out there that will jump on the bandwagon and keep this going and going to fill the 24/7 news programmes and sell the papers.   They will not let go until Suarez becomes the sacrifical lamb.

Disagree with that post you agree with.   

Obviously having someone call you names is not the same as being persecuted or burned out of your house. Those are SEPERATE CRIMES IN THEIR OWN RIGHT. the trigger being through race, ignorance, fear what have you....

The fights against racism in the past are different to the fights against racism today because the whole subject matter has become so taboo!! Because of the historic figures u mentioned.....it is by far the perfect world, but something as high profile as football has to be seen as clean-cut. in my opinion, purely by the fact that it influences so many people.....therefore comparing it to everyday situations we all face with like-minded ppl/friends/whatever is not the same and never will be.

I don't think Suarez has done anything other than try to wind up Evra to benefit himself and the team in that specific game.....that could be my rose-tinted point of view though.

if he done that using racist comments intentionally. he's wrong, he'll get banned for a bit and fined, life goes on.

If he was only trying to belittle Evra and not insinuate anything racist....this has already gone too far and has ruined Suarez's image for no reason. Which stinks to high heaven.

Its a lose-lose situation in a way.....but i for one won't comment anymore (or try not to) until we're closer to finding out the outcome.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Be an interesting path if the FA go down the route of banning everyone that says anything nasty to anyone else on the pitch in any circumstances.

[Red_Rich]

He didn't even admit that, the press and Ferguson inferred it from what Luis said.

Okay, you're right.  this is what Suarez is quoted as saying ...

"The FA will have to clarify things with [Evra]," Suárez said. "There is no evidence I said anything racist to him. I said nothing of the sort. There were two parts of the discussion, one in Spanish, one in English. I did not insult him. It was just a way of expressing myself. I called him something his team-mates at Manchester call him, and even they were surprised by his reaction."

Suárez added: "These things happen in football, in the heat of the moment. They leave someone looking bad. Now we have to see how the matter is decided and then, for him as much as me, we will have things clear. And wherever the fault lies, we are going to have to say sorry."


The bit in bold is what people are now assuming is the "Negrito" word, meaning 'mate' or 'pal'.

I'm not entirely sure where this has become written in stone, that he said THAT word.

[John C]

OK I could be wrong and I don't know why I think it but I thought it had been established this week that he had used the word negrito which compelled the FA to make the charge.
Having read a few explanations and interpretations about its meaning and indeed that it could not be racist at all, I'm wondering how the FA will resolve this correctly. I once called someone 'lad' on here and he took offence and reacted negatively. In Liverpool its not unusual to hear someone say 'alright lad', so will the FA have to engage a South American language expert, because they are in no position to make a clear and defined judgement. They could get this badly wrong if they don't undertake a thorough process of regional  language research.

[Hazell]

Be an interesting path if the FA go down the route of banning everyone that says anything nasty to anyone else on the pitch in any circumstances.

I would think that's highly unlikely given the scope of it. But it'll be interesting to see if Suarez is reprimanded over 'comments', which aren't racist (if that's the case) but still offensive.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

OK I could be wrong and I don't know why I think it but I thought it had been established this week that he had used the word negrito which compelled the FA to make the charge.
Having read a few explanations and interpretations about its meaning and indeed that it could not be racist at all, I'm wondering how the FA will resolve this correctly. I once called someone 'lad' on here and he took offence and reacted negatively. In Liverpool its not unusual to hear someone say 'alright lad', so will the FA have to engage a South American language expert, because they are in no position to make a clear and defined judgement. They could get this badly wrong if they don't undertake a thorough process of regional  language research.

You and I have seen how easy it is for casual, normal words meant in one way to be taken entirely and literally the opposite of what was intended mate. It's that easy. If we all looked back on our lives and someone saying something to us and us taking it the wrong way, it's only through dialogue that you realise it wasn't what you first thought..

[Nonex]

Forgive the fact that I don't have a source but I read somewhere that Suarez could get a 5-6 game ban. Can anyone confirm if this is actually true?

[R.A.La]

They probably have but it isn't common place. What I susepct there though his that is merely a back-up option, he's going to be charged with abusive language regardless, and if they can get the racist one to go with it then they will. If not, well nasty little Suarez called a grown-up man a dickhead on the pitch and we're fining/suspending him for it. It's a joke.

If they ever tried to enforce this it would be the end of football in this country. There would be no players available to play they'd all be banned. Fucking joke of a "charge".

If it starts going tits up for Luis we should demand that the police investigate it. What worries me is, if the police decide Terry has no case to answer, that the FA will drop the matter using the Schmicel v Wright case as a precedant, and leave Luis to carry the can for the "kick it out" campaign, the same as Masch carried the can for "respect".

[foxfang4]

Okay, you're right.  this is what Suarez is quoted as saying ...

"The FA will have to clarify things with [Evra]," Suárez said. "There is no evidence I said anything racist to him. I said nothing of the sort. There were two parts of the discussion, one in Spanish, one in English. I did not insult him. It was just a way of expressing myself. I called him something his team-mates at Manchester call him, and even they were surprised by his reaction."

Suárez added: "These things happen in football, in the heat of the moment. They leave someone looking bad. Now we have to see how the matter is decided and then, for him as much as me, we will have things clear. And wherever the fault lies, we are going to have to say sorry."


The bit in bold is what people are now assuming is the "Negrito" word, meaning 'mate' or 'pal'.

I'm not entirely sure where this has become written in stone, that he said THAT word.

The case is based on Evra claiming that Luis is lying about his intentions...which cannot be proved either way.

[mightymoose1972]

A couple of questions ...

1) Why have the FA taken so long to bring this charge? I thought that they had introduced rules to speed up their processes.

2) Why has Luis been charged by the FA but the police aren't investigating, yet John Terry has been investigated by the police but the FA haven't charged him? What is different about the alleged incidents?

3) If the FA find Luis guilty, what is the likely / maximum punishment that he could face? Would there be any grounds for appeal?

Thanks in advance

[Twelfth Man]

Harbhajan being charged with calling Symonds a 'bandra' 'monkey' springs to mind. In India bandra is a commonly used term to refer to mischievous, cunning, characteristics, it has absolutely NO racial connotations. To children it is commonly used as naughty. To adults it refers to someone who is cunning. It does not have the racial connotations it has in the West. i think negrito has the similar usage in Latin America.