Author Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)  (Read 926858 times)

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3240 on: October 28, 2017, 10:43:56 pm »
That's actually where I'm getting at. I just don't see that's what we're doing.

At Dortmund it took him 2-3 seasons to shape the side before it was ready for a 4 year push on all front for trophies. I think he was giving the existing players, which were better than the ones he inherited at Dortmund, a chance to fit the system. It's almost 2 years to the day and several still look a poor fit for his system so it's possible this is just the red line he drew on his calander at which point he will start washing out people who don't fit regardless of profile?

We have a habit of reading a lot into whatever little information we have - and I am guilty of doing it myself too. The truth is we will never really know. This is just me vocalising my internal monologue from watching the game today. It looks like the day he gave up trying his poorly fitting options for the #6 role and solved it with a tactical hack.

I just cannot see him persisting with 3 at the back going forward. Which means I think we will sign someone suitable for that role to replace Can once his body meets his head which is in Turin already.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3241 on: October 28, 2017, 10:44:19 pm »
I am looking forward to when we actually have Lallana,Salah,Firmino,Coutinho,Mane all on the same pitch. Lallana in midfield will help us tremendously.

-------------------Henderson----------

--------------Lallana--------------Coutinho------------

---------Salah---------Firmino-------Mane------------


That's our best possible front 6.

Offline Charles Foster Kane

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3242 on: October 28, 2017, 10:56:08 pm »
At Dortmund it took him 2-3 seasons to shape the side before it was ready for a 4 year push on all front for trophies. I think he was giving the existing players, which were better than the ones he inherited at Dortmund, a chance to fit the system. It's almost 2 years to the day and several still look a poor fit for his system so it's possible this is just the red line he drew on his calander at which point he will start washing out people who don't fit regardless of profile?

We have a habit of reading a lot into whatever little information we have - and I am guilty of doing it myself too. The truth is we will never really know. This is just me vocalising my internal monologue from watching the game today. It looks like the day he gave up trying his poorly fitting options for the #6 role and solved it with a tactical hack.

I just cannot see him persisting with 3 at the back going forward. Which means I think we will sign someone suitable for that role to replace Can once his body meets his head which is in Turin already.
Fair enough. And I agree about the speculation train. We all do it. I was just so underwhelmed by this summer transfer window. We went more backwards than forwards in my idea of what we're trying to do. If you think Klopp still has this under control then fine enough by me.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3243 on: October 28, 2017, 11:24:28 pm »
Fair enough. And I agree about the speculation train. We all do it. I was just so underwhelmed by this summer transfer window. We went more backwards than forwards in my idea of what we're trying to do. If you think Klopp still has this under control then fine enough by me.
The argument could be made that we function against top sides (needed to win cups) with the GK and defence from last season. But we didn't function without Mane, or as Klopp looks at players as skillsets, his pace.

Therefore adding at least, ideally two, players who had pace to the side was critical. For me personally, I think we needed more needles players. Or players who operate in tight spaces. Chamberlain fits as a bit of both. He has shown in the handful of games he played in midfield that he can play though sides and work between the lines. It's a small sample size but we have to be hoping that is the player we can build him into in our side. He also has pace - albeit he doesn't effectively use it the same way Mane or Salah would.

But the likes of Keita & Lemar are needle players. The likes of Barcelona & Man City were always loadad with such players as they are the difference makers in a league season and you drag 3 points away from the bus parkers.

The problem is the back 6 has regressed quite badly, bar Moreno who is having a nice little comeback.

Mignolet in the last 10 games was putting up Lloris/Courtois form in terms of shot stopping. Matip & Lovren in front were giving up the lowest number of shots over the course of the season. As well as the 3rd lowest expected goals in total from those shots. Clyne at RB was a dependable option who was one of, if not the strongest player in the league in 1-v-1 defending.

This season we whoever we play at RB is easily beaten in 1-v-1s. We have given away at least 5 (maybe more) goals already where someone easily beats the right back and crosses ultimately resulting in a goal. Mignolet has regressed to his form which got him dropped for Karius last season in terms of shot stopping. Matip - who looked very reliable - now seems to alternate between that and a horror show from one week to the next. He's already ha more bad performances this season that all of last season. Lovren has also regressed badly.

The biggest regression of all is the midfield screen in front of that lot, which was outstanding at screening the back four - we conceded 0 shots from through balls or dribbles into the box last season. This season already we have conceded plenty off of through balls and almost every goal we see I can trace back to a starting point where we fail to put pressure on the ball. Plus Can and his walking... whatever that is about.

Long story short - there was reasons to be optimistic that there was something there that could be improved upon. Or, failing that, would be enough to hit our fallback targets until such time our primary targets to upgrade where available. Unfortunately Clyne's injury and the collapse in GK, CB & #6 roles means things look far worse than last season back there. It means the doom mongers for whom the sky is falling finally have their falling sky to point at and proclaim how right they were. :D

I always felt this summer the key thing for me was adding pace (Salah), a left back (Milner's legs have gone, or soon would and Moreno didn't look capable), a needle player (Keita) and another CB. Those were my 4 targets, we hit 3, albeit one of them with a one year delay. Never thought it was cause for panic and we should be okay for 70-75 points minimum with last seasons squad and a few key additions. I didn't anticipate Mignolet, Matip, Lovren, Clyne and our entire center midfield having this start to the season though.
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Offline wemmick

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3244 on: October 28, 2017, 11:29:53 pm »
I am looking forward to when we actually have Lallana,Salah,Firmino,Coutinho,Mane all on the same pitch. Lallana in midfield will help us tremendously.

-------------------Henderson----------

--------------Lallana--------------Coutinho------------

---------Salah---------Firmino-------Mane------------


That's our best possible front 6.

Player for player, but I would hesitate seeing Henderson and Coutinho in midfield together again. They don’t provide enough balance between defense and attack. So far, we’ve been porous against the counter without Lallana and Gini as our #8s. Crazy as it might sound, I think Gini is a better all round midfielder than Coutinho, although the latter’s attacking play is far superior.

Offline Charles Foster Kane

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3245 on: October 28, 2017, 11:41:05 pm »
The argument could be made that we function against top sides (needed to win cups) with the GK and defence from last season. But we didn't function without Mane, or as Klopp looks at players as skillsets, his pace.

Therefore adding at least, ideally two, players who had pace to the side was critical. For me personally, I think we needed more needles players. Or players who operate in tight spaces. Chamberlain fits as a bit of both. He has shown in the handful of games he played in midfield that he can play though sides and work between the lines. It's a small sample size but we have to be hoping that is the player we can build him into in our side. He also has pace - albeit he doesn't effectively use it the same way Mane or Salah would.

But the likes of Keita & Lemar are needle players. The likes of Barcelona & Man City were always loadad with such players as they are the difference makers in a league season and you drag 3 points away from the bus parkers.

The problem is the back 6 has regressed quite badly, bar Moreno who is having a nice little comeback.

Mignolet in the last 10 games was putting up Lloris/Courtois form in terms of shot stopping. Matip & Lovren in front were giving up the lowest number of shots over the course of the season. As well as the 3rd lowest expected goals in total from those shots. Clyne at RB was a dependable option who was one of, if not the strongest player in the league in 1-v-1 defending.

This season we whoever we play at RB is easily beaten in 1-v-1s. We have given away at least 5 (maybe more) goals already where someone easily beats the right back and crosses ultimately resulting in a goal. Mignolet has regressed to his form which got him dropped for Karius last season in terms of shot stopping. Matip - who looked very reliable - now seems to alternate between that and a horror show from one week to the next. He's already ha more bad performances this season that all of last season. Lovren has also regressed badly.

The biggest regression of all is the midfield screen in front of that lot, which was outstanding at screening the back four - we conceded 0 shots from through balls or dribbles into the box last season. This season already we have conceded plenty off of through balls and almost every goal we see I can trace back to a starting point where we fail to put pressure on the ball. Plus Can and his walking... whatever that is about.

Long story short - there was reasons to be optimistic that there was something there that could be improved upon. Or, failing that, would be enough to hit our fallback targets until such time our primary targets to upgrade where available. Unfortunately Clyne's injury and the collapse in GK, CB & #6 roles means things look far worse than last season back there. It means the doom mongers for whom the sky is falling finally have their falling sky to point at and proclaim how right they were. :D

I always felt this summer the key thing for me was adding pace (Salah), a left back (Milner's legs have gone, or soon would and Moreno didn't look capable), a needle player (Keita) and another CB. Those were my 4 targets, we hit 3, albeit one of them with a one year delay. Never thought it was cause for panic and we should be okay for 70-75 points minimum with last seasons squad and a few key additions. I didn't anticipate Mignolet, Matip, Lovren, Clyne and our entire center midfield having this start to the season though.
We don't function against top sides at the moment though. And I don't agree about the 3 in 4 transfer statistic. I refuse to count Keita this year and Lemar felt like a club started rumour. I say we got one out of three. But we are also in Europe which means we needed more players. That was ignored.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3246 on: October 28, 2017, 11:53:26 pm »
Player for player, but I would hesitate seeing Henderson and Coutinho in midfield together again. They don’t provide enough balance between defense and attack. So far, we’ve been porous against the counter without Lallana and Gini as our #8s. Crazy as it might sound, I think Gini is a better all round midfielder than Coutinho, although the latter’s attacking play is far superior.

If you look at that as a Dortmund side - You would have Bender-Protect (Hendo), Gundogan-Link Play (Lallana), Kagawa-Create & Support attack (Coutinho). In that sense, as a three, the problem would be Henderson as he doesn't protect the defence at that level. As you say, swapping Gini for Coutinho, who then shares that burden with Henderson, worked last season.

Gini chipped in with goals and assists as did Lallana. Lallana linked play. Gini and Hendo protected the defence. There was good balance. 
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Offline Charles Foster Kane

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3247 on: October 28, 2017, 11:59:22 pm »
If you look at that as a Dortmund side - You would have Bender-Protect (Hendo), Gundogan-Link Play (Lallana), Kagawa-Create & Support attack (Coutinho). In that sense, as a three, the problem would be Henderson as he doesn't protect the defence at that level. As you say, swapping Gini for Coutinho, who then shares that burden with Henderson, worked last season.

Gini chipped in with goals and assists as did Lallana. Lallana linked play. Gini and Hendo protected the defence. There was good balance.
No. There was never a good balance.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3248 on: October 29, 2017, 01:39:45 am »
Player for player, but I would hesitate seeing Henderson and Coutinho in midfield together again. They don’t provide enough balance between defense and attack. So far, we’ve been porous against the counter without Lallana and Gini as our #8s. Crazy as it might sound, I think Gini is a better all round midfielder than Coutinho, although the latter’s attacking play is far superior.

I agree but thats still better than the other options we have.

Offline Zee_26

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3249 on: October 29, 2017, 04:46:01 pm »
If that hack, means never having to see Henderson run backwards to Matip and take the ball of his toes, then so be it.

At one point in the first half Matip waves him away but he just doesn't get it.

Yeah that was most frustrating. Especially as Henderson then went and made a pass that Matip would have made anyway.

One thing I couldn't understand was that at times in the first half yesterday we effectively had about 4 men around the half way line. Was really odd as thereafter the midfield pretty much left it to either Klavan or Matip to start the attack. But the midfield never really broke the line. It made our attacking play look really blunt.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3250 on: October 29, 2017, 06:14:57 pm »
If you look at that as a Dortmund side - You would have Bender-Protect (Hendo), Gundogan-Link Play (Lallana), Kagawa-Create & Support attack (Coutinho). In that sense, as a three, the problem would be Henderson as he doesn't protect the defence at that level. As you say, swapping Gini for Coutinho, who then shares that burden with Henderson, worked last season.

Gini chipped in with goals and assists as did Lallana. Lallana linked play. Gini and Hendo protected the defence. There was good balance.

Which begs the question for me: What do we do with Coutinho for the rest of this season? He isn't a better winger than Mane and Salah, nor would he be a better option in midfield than Lallana or Gini if Henderson/Can plays at the #6. Just pure speculation, but I wonder if this is part of the reason Klopp didn't seem too bothered about losing him this summer. Terrific attacker, but maybe not as adaptable to the #8 as I dreamed. At this point, I think he is 100% a #10 in a side that doesn't generally use one, or is slightly unbalanced with one (drifting in from the left wing). Shows how much different we're playing now than under Rodgers, and maybe how much Klopp has changed since Dortmund, with much greater emphasis now on the role of the #8s. Having Lallana, Gini, Keita, and potentially Ox and Woodburn as our #8s next season doesn't appear to leave much room for an orthodox #10, like Coutinho or Kagawa.     
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 06:17:06 pm by wemmick »

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3251 on: October 29, 2017, 06:25:43 pm »
nor would he be a better option in midfield than Lallana or Gini.     
Imo he would be a much, much better option as AM than two of them or anyone else for that matter. Few games he played there this season he was outstanding but had to be pushed forward into front 3 due to injuries. If you give him a chance you'll see he'll do a great job for us there this season.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3252 on: October 29, 2017, 09:13:08 pm »
Imo he would be a much, much better option as AM than two of them or anyone else for that matter. Few games he played there this season he was outstanding but had to be pushed forward into front 3 due to injuries. If you give him a chance you'll see he'll do a great job for us there this season.

Well, I hope you're right, mate. I expect his attacking play will be great whether as drifting #10 or #8, but I don't see much evidence that Klopp is trying to convert him into a box to box midfielder for his peak years, or that Klopp will eventually use a tripartite midfield with a #6, #8, and #10, like he did at Dortmund.

I mean, even at the U23 level, are we developing #10s? I don't get to watch the U23s live much, unless I can find links to re-watch their matches, but from the highlights it seems like the best candidates to become first team #10s (Ejaria and Woodburn) play as #8s in midfield, in roles similar to Gini and Lallana, unless they are playing with two strikers. All I'm saying is that the way Klopp has our side setup doesn't appear to make much room for Coutinho in the long-term. He probably won't displace Mane and Salah on the wings, and I'm not seeing many signs that Klopp wants a #10 in midfield. He already converted two of them into starting #8s last season.         
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:06:18 pm by wemmick »

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3253 on: November 3, 2017, 07:06:00 pm »
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3254 on: November 4, 2017, 12:47:15 pm »
Not sure if anybody else noticed this against Maribor - there was one point where they had 11 players in their box from open play. Their full back won the ball in the corner of his own box and passed it to their furthest forward player - the striker, also in his own box. Never seen that before. They took parking the bus to extremes. Usually sides - e.g. Burnley will press as soon as the ball enters the defensive 3rd - known as a high defensive press. Maribor had a low defensive press, if any. That the game didn't descend into a long range shooting match, as we have seen in the past, is a HUGE credit to the players IMO. When they are giving you the 25 yards around their box to shoot from the temptation must have been huge.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3255 on: November 4, 2017, 12:57:06 pm »
Not sure if anybody else noticed this against Maribor - there was one point where they had 11 players in their box from open play. Their full back won the ball in the corner of his own box and passed it to their furthest forward player - the striker, also in his own box. Never seen that before. They took parking the bus to extremes. Usually sides - e.g. Burnley will press as soon as the ball enters the defensive 3rd - known as a high defensive press. Maribor had a low defensive press, if any. That the game didn't descend into a long range shooting match, as we have seen in the past, is a HUGE credit to the players IMO. When they are giving you the 25 yards around their box to shoot from the temptation must have been huge.

Yeah i saw it. Its tough to get past that no matter how good you are creatively. Felt like that against Yeovil last season.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3256 on: November 4, 2017, 02:25:24 pm »
Not sure if anybody else noticed this against Maribor - there was one point where they had 11 players in their box from open play. Their full back won the ball in the corner of his own box and passed it to their furthest forward player - the striker, also in his own box. Never seen that before. They took parking the bus to extremes. Usually sides - e.g. Burnley will press as soon as the ball enters the defensive 3rd - known as a high defensive press. Maribor had a low defensive press, if any. That the game didn't descend into a long range shooting match, as we have seen in the past, is a HUGE credit to the players IMO. When they are giving you the 25 yards around their box to shoot from the temptation must have been huge.
Were they really parking the bus.When they recovered the ball they did seem to want to string passes together

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3257 on: November 4, 2017, 02:42:23 pm »
Were they really parking the bus.When they recovered the ball they did seem to want to string passes together
The two are not mutually exclusive. One refers to a side in their defensive phase, the other in their attacking phase.

The starting position of Klavan & Matip was a good 10-15 yards inside their half and they still had a 15 yard head start on Mesanovic should they need to counter. Mesanovic at times was in their own box, in open play.

The pass maps and average positions for the game is quite telling.



Never seen anything like that. The average position of all outfield players for both sides is in their half. Yeah... they parked the bus. Then covered it in concrete.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3258 on: November 4, 2017, 08:46:34 pm »
Stevie is totally spot on.

You don't need to push your fullbacks up away from home, get two guys to protect the back 4 to build a platform for our front 4 to kill teams on the break 13/14 style. I think every PL team at home will be tempted to attack especially under pressure of home fans.

Today is a very good blueprint on how to play away from home.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3259 on: November 4, 2017, 10:49:52 pm »
At the first half we made 1 chance->goal from counter attack
we scored 1 goal  and made 1 shot  from corners   

I really don't see how todays perfomance is a good choice for away games

I don't think other teams will leave so much open space on their defence for our attackers if the game is 0-0 at half time, but if our attackers are in such form maybe it worth the risk

« Last Edit: November 4, 2017, 10:59:49 pm by macnianios »

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3260 on: November 4, 2017, 11:14:02 pm »
Interesting today going with a 442, morphing into a 424 at points. The two full backs playing support and supply roles rather than overlapping and penetration. Gini (who was brilliant today) and Can (also very strong) were charged with screening the back four and trying to find the forwards but not making runs from deep to support them. Firmino didn't drop off as much and played more like a second striker rather than a false 9. The way we set up and our game plan was akin to how Ferguson set his sides up away from home.

West Ham did a solid job restricting us at first but ironically got to gung ho at a corner that gave us our lead. Once we quickly made it two bar a nervy 15 minutes after they scored we controllled the game pretty well and were able to pick our moments to counter without throwing numbers forward.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3261 on: November 4, 2017, 11:28:31 pm »
Interesting today going with a 442, morphing into a 424 at points. The two full backs playing support and supply roles rather than overlapping and penetration. Gini (who was brilliant today) and Can (also very strong) were charged with screening the back four and trying to find the forwards but not making runs from deep to support them. Firmino didn't drop off as much and played more like a second striker rather than a false 9. The way we set up and our game plan was akin to how Ferguson set his sides up away from home.

West Ham did a solid job restricting us at first but ironically got to gung ho at a corner that gave us our lead. Once we quickly made it two bar a nervy 15 minutes after they scored we controllled the game pretty well and were able to pick our moments to counter without throwing numbers forward.

I couldn't really get a handle on our formation today.

Probably the closest I could come up with was a 4-2-2-2, with Can and Gini sitting, Firmino and Mo as the front two and Ox and Mane in between but very narrow. It was the complete opposite to the Maribor game where the gap between front and back was ridiculously small but we were spread across the pitch.

Today the gap between the defence and attack was huge and West Ham simply couldn't cope. There were no wide players to mark so their players got sucked in and then our players took it in turns to exploit the wide areas.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3262 on: November 4, 2017, 11:37:42 pm »
A poster in the game thread mentioned about Moreno actually being better defensively than going forward because Moreno was going backwards and inside all the time against West Ham. I think it was actually Bilic's tactics that overloaded our left hand side and they invited us to go down the right with Gomez. It was clear in the first half but we didnt take advantage of it. I think its credit to Moreno's form this season that teams are tactically loading up and inviting us to go elsewhere. Bilic done the same when he turned us over at Anfield 3-0 under rodgers. Gomez was playing left back and Bilic just overloaded on our right hand side knowing Gomez couldnt take advantage down the left. It was also a sign of Moreno's growth that he didnt go walkabouts like an headless chicken but he just held his position and stayed patient. When the game was stretched in the second half he could then bomb down the left into a lot of space. He his really playing under control these days.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3263 on: November 5, 2017, 12:05:36 am »
A poster in the game thread mentioned about Moreno actually being better defensively than going forward because Moreno was going backwards and inside all the time against West Ham. I think it was actually Bilic's tactics that overloaded our left hand side and they invited us to go down the right with Gomez. It was clear in the first half but we didnt take advantage of it. I think its credit to Moreno's form this season that teams are tactically loading up and inviting us to go elsewhere. Bilic done the same when he turned us over at Anfield 3-0 under rodgers. Gomez was playing left back and Bilic just overloaded on our right hand side knowing Gomez couldnt take advantage down the left. It was also a sign of Moreno's growth that he didnt go walkabouts like an headless chicken but he just held his position and stayed patient. When the game was stretched in the second half he could then bomb down the left into a lot of space. He his really playing under control these days.

I think you are right discipline was the key word today. Usually against us Billic sets up deep and narrow with his defence basically covering the six yard box and giving us space down the sides safe in the knowledge that we aren't really equipped to beat sides from crosses.

He would of loved us to end up spread across the pitch with very little defensive depth like we did against Maribor but we refused to be drawn into that kind of game. The interesting bit was the commentators and pundits talking about West Ham not pressing and not showing pride and passion. For me West Ham wanted to play a low block and wanted to bring us on to them but we refused.

We kept possession and were quite happy to knock it around and draw them out. West Ham didn't know what to do they looked like a side who wanted to drop off and get narrow but couldn't because we played with discipline.

The other thing was Macca going on about players ball watching on BT Sport. For me it wasn't about that it was about West ham players getting sucked into the middle of the pitch because of the way we setup. It wasn't a case of ball watching but of players trying to pick up their man. Their full backs went looking for the likes of the Ox and Mane and then the likes of Salah and Firmino exploited the wide positions they had vacated.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3264 on: November 5, 2017, 12:28:40 am »
A poster in the game thread mentioned about Moreno actually being better defensively than going forward because Moreno was going backwards and inside all the time against West Ham. I think it was actually Bilic's tactics that overloaded our left hand side and they invited us to go down the right with Gomez. It was clear in the first half but we didnt take advantage of it. I think its credit to Moreno's form this season that teams are tactically loading up and inviting us to go elsewhere. Bilic done the same when he turned us over at Anfield 3-0 under rodgers. Gomez was playing left back and Bilic just overloaded on our right hand side knowing Gomez couldnt take advantage down the left. It was also a sign of Moreno's growth that he didnt go walkabouts like an headless chicken but he just held his position and stayed patient. When the game was stretched in the second half he could then bomb down the left into a lot of space. He his really playing under control these days.

Good post. I noticed it last week with Moreno against Huddersfield, he must have passed back inside to Klavan or Henderson a few dozen times throughout the game because there was just nothing on down his left. There would be a defender in front tracking and then 10 yards deeper another covering any run. You make a good point, because teams are wary of Moreno now and he will kill you with his pace if you give up space down that channel and especially so if Mane is there (those two link up well).


Offline Zee_26

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3265 on: November 5, 2017, 06:02:11 am »
I couldn't really get a handle on our formation today.

Probably the closest I could come up with was a 4-2-2-2, with Can and Gini sitting, Firmino and Mo as the front two and Ox and Mane in between but very narrow. It was the complete opposite to the Maribor game where the gap between front and back was ridiculously small but we were spread across the pitch.

Today the gap between the defence and attack was huge and West Ham simply couldn't cope. There were no wide players to mark so their players got sucked in and then our players took it in turns to exploit the wide areas.

Was just about to post the same. Looked about as close to that formation but the with the front four being incredibly fluid. Think of the four Ox and Mane had the most fixed starting positions but then they were free to move inside or out at will it seemed.

Even Can and Gini playing behind were rotating and taking it in turns to join in the attack. But also were really disciplined in defence at the same time. I thought Can did excellent in handling Carroll and played him very cleverly by drawing the fouls every time they competed for headers.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3266 on: November 5, 2017, 09:43:53 am »
I couldn't really get a handle on our formation today.

Probably the closest I could come up with was a 4-2-2-2, with Can and Gini sitting, Firmino and Mo as the front two and Ox and Mane in between but very narrow. It was the complete opposite to the Maribor game where the gap between front and back was ridiculously small but we were spread across the pitch.

Today the gap between the defence and attack was huge and West Ham simply couldn't cope. There were no wide players to mark so their players got sucked in and then our players took it in turns to exploit the wide areas.

I'd say it was a 4-2-2-2 although maybe it was meant to be a 4-2-3-1 with Salah as the 10 but given Firmino isn't a focal point it muddies the waters as to what it became. Either way I liked it, in part because I'd said I wanted to see Salah play as a 10 for the past month - as we saw from his 2nd by playing him there you're getting him in a lot more positions to score. I just hope Klopp sticks with it, all you have to do is shift Mane back right (where he looks more unpredictable) and Coutinho can slot in on the left.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3267 on: November 5, 2017, 10:35:01 am »
It was almost surreal listening to Klopp explaining that the idea was to go with 442 and sit a little deeper.

Since the start of last season it was always 433 with the exact same ideas regardless of the opponent or venue.

I find it encouraging that he's willing now to change the approach and slightly adapt to our opponent - it's even more intriguing when you consider that as per Klopp they only worked on it for one day. Tactical tweaks are not always gonna work but it's nice that after a few bad performances on the road Klopp looked at the situation with open mind in order to find the right balance in the team.

Hopefully this trend will continue and there will be no more square pegs in round holes like last season at times.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3268 on: November 5, 2017, 11:56:13 am »
It was almost surreal listening to Klopp explaining that the idea was to go with 442 and sit a little deeper.

Since the start of last season it was always 433 with the exact same ideas regardless of the opponent or venue.

I find it encouraging that he's willing now to change the approach and slightly adapt to our opponent - it's even more intriguing when you consider that as per Klopp they only worked on it for one day. Tactical tweaks are not always gonna work but it's nice that after a few bad performances on the road Klopp looked at the situation with open mind in order to find the right balance in the team.

Hopefully this trend will continue and there will be no more square pegs in round holes like last season at times.

We were missing a lot of first team players. With Henderson and Lallana missing, you can’t really play that midfield 3 we did last season - and we would play it whenever they were all fit, because it was blowing away most teams it came up against.

With Can, a half fit Gini, no Clyne... the roles were different. The number 6 wasn’t the one making the 3 at the back, but it was Gomez tucking in. When everyone’s fit, Clyne’s further forward, Henderson’s the one dropping in, for example.

It’s why I can’t wait for everyone to come back. We can finally start pressing teams again and start ripping into them properly. We’ve got a great amount of quality up front in attack, but our game play from deep leaves a lot to be desired. We saw it in the first half yesterday. It was only because we got 2 goals in quick succession that opened it up more - they simply had to attack us more, and we just picked them off at will after the 3rd.

When we see Lallana, Coutinho, Clyne and Henderson back, we should be able to dictate the pace of a game and control midfield a lot more. And when those Man City and Spurs twats rock up to Anfield later in the season we should be able to put them to the sword.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3269 on: November 5, 2017, 12:03:24 pm »
When everyone's back and fit we're definitely gonna see more of the ball and the pressing will be better but I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday's game plan of being compact and conservative at the back while using all the pace of the front 4.

I think if you really want to get the best out of likes of Mane and Salah it's more likely to happen in open box-to-box games rather than against parked buses where it's difficult to find the space and they can't really utilize their pace to the fullest extent.

Regardless it's important that we added another tactical option that we can use in certain situations. It makes us more versatile and pragmatic which can only be a good thing.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3270 on: November 6, 2017, 01:56:05 am »
https://statsbomb.com/2017/09/set-pieces-and-market-efficiency/

Interesting bit here from Knutson on set piece expertise. Chelsea scored way more from set pieces than City last year, despite scoring around the same in open play.

It's an article to sell his consulting services, but I do wonder whether we as a club couldn't be spending more time on set pieces than we are.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3271 on: November 6, 2017, 02:20:13 am »
https://statsbomb.com/2017/09/set-pieces-and-market-efficiency/

Interesting bit here from Knutson on set piece expertise. Chelsea scored way more from set pieces than City last year, despite scoring around the same in open play.

It's an article to sell his consulting services, but I do wonder whether we as a club couldn't be spending more time on set pieces than we are.

The two things I know is that:-
1. The last training session we do before every game is dedicated to defensive set pieces. Lucas confirmed this recently.
2. We do actually work hard on attacking set pieces.

We also frequently do clever little things that are new to me. Like remember Coutinho kneeling behind the wall to prevent ground shots? Or the screens we have been using on freekicks as long as Klopp has been here - coinciding with a huge upturn in Coutinho's freekick success rate. Or that clearly very well rehearsed routine we saw at the weekend. Salah signalling it, Mane making a run across the front post to where he was delivering. Never seen that before. It looked game-specific to get at the static players they have near post.

The biggest problem we have is a lack of people who attack the ball in the boxes. Without them, all the rehearsing in the world only gets you so far. Klavan, Matip & Gomez are all incredibly passive as center backs go. Even Can doesn't attack the ball in the air with any conviction. Grujic is probably the best we have at the club in that regard. Short arses like Moreno and Gini are probably our most aggressive players at attacking the ball in the air. I suspect with Subotic, Lewa & Hummels here, we would be seeing a fair few more set piece goals and better defending off them also. Which is why I have been hammering on about the need for height in the #6 role and whoever replaced Lovren to be at least equal to him if not better in the air.
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Offline Redcap

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3272 on: November 6, 2017, 02:26:08 am »
The two things I know is that:-
1. The last training session we do before every game is dedicated to defensive set pieces. Lucas confirmed this recently.
2. We do actually work hard on attacking set pieces.

We also frequently do clever little things that are new to me. Like remember Coutinho kneeling behind the wall to prevent ground shots? Or the screens we have been using on freekicks as long as Klopp has been here - coinciding with a huge upturn in Coutinho's freekick success rate. Or that clearly very well rehearsed routine we saw at the weekend. Salah signalling it, Mane making a run across the front post to where he was delivering. Never seen that before. It looked game-specific to get at the static players they have near post.

The biggest problem we have is a lack of people who attack the ball in the boxes. Without them, all the rehearsing in the world only gets you so far. Klavan, Matip & Gomez are all incredibly passive as center backs go. Even Can doesn't attack the ball in the air with any conviction. Grujic is probably the best we have at the club in that regard. Short arses like Moreno and Gini are probably our most aggressive players at attacking the ball in the air. I suspect with Subotic, Lewa & Hummels here, we would be seeing a fair few more set piece goals and better defending off them also. Which is why I have been hammering on about the need for height in the #6 role and whoever replaced Lovren to be at least equal to him if not better in the air.

It seems like set pieces have been an issue for us since forever though. With the exception of 2013-14, when Skrtel scored something like 8 goals, we've never been especially good at getting to the end of corners or free kicks, and criticisms of our defending of set pieces seem to go all the way back to Rafa days. I'm not sure how fair those criticisms are - a part of it at least was certainly just a general English antipathy in the commentariat against zonal marking, but it's definitely been a long time since I remember thinking "Okay, the opposition is taking a corner but we've most likely got that managed."

Have we just had passive attackers of the ball all this time? Wasn't Matip quite a good attacker of the ball at Schalke?

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3273 on: November 6, 2017, 08:03:24 am »
When everyone's back and fit we're definitely gonna see more of the ball and the pressing will be better but I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday's game plan of being compact and conservative at the back while using all the pace of the front 4.

I think if you really want to get the best out of likes of Mane and Salah it's more likely to happen in open box-to-box games rather than against parked buses where it's difficult to find the space and they can't really utilize their pace to the fullest extent.

Regardless it's important that we added another tactical option that we can use in certain situations. It makes us more versatile and pragmatic which can only be a good thing.
Ye Klopp noted how our players looked uncomfortable with this style. It would be good if we could learn this deeper defending as an option and it should make our defending mindset in general better.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3274 on: November 6, 2017, 01:58:16 pm »
We need to see Klopp form his team now....that squad that is gonna create the dynasty.

I should hope he's well aware we need to kick on now. He has formed a fantastic attack, needs some work still but mostly there...
But the defence and midfield have often let him down. Injuries etc. can't be accounted for but he has not made enough moves in the market for the time he's had here imo.....

We can't assume every signing will be bang on, so will they be given the 2 years the players he inherited were? Dangerous game that.

My hope is that I think maybe he's worked with what he's got whilst making plans on what he wants his final squad to look like. Because he had no idea coming into this country as it's different to what he's used to. That is the only thing that makes sense to me.....given the fact he also took long to build his Dortmund side.

I don't think he is looking to do a Dortmund replica, just maybe the process is the same. I am hoping that he and his team are certain of what they want now and last summer was the beginning of the real shaping of this squad in his vision
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Offline YerBaldyHead

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3275 on: November 6, 2017, 03:06:27 pm »
Unlikely as it is to happen, i'd love us to go with 4-4-2 again after the break in the next run of games. Get the feeling that the 4-3-3 has been sussed out by a lot of teams and it doesn't particularly suit us when you look at our squad.

Maybe look at Monaco from last season and line up something like:

               Mignolet
Gomez Matip Klavan Moreno
Mane Can Lallana Coutinho
          Salah Firmino

Really don't think we suit playing possession football (in the way City do) at all. If they're all fit, you can safely assume Mane, Salah, Firmino and Coutinho will be starting most games. Those are our 4 principal attackers and all of them are very direct runners who aren't naturally posessession focused players who like to patiently build up play.

Also, with the risk of sounding very Allardyce, having two banks of 4 when defending *should* help us out at the back, and having two holding midfielders *should* stop us getting turned over on transitions.

Offline YerBaldyHead

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3276 on: November 6, 2017, 03:15:31 pm »
Also...

Although i've firmly been in the 'buy a fucking striker' camp for the past 2 seasons, if Mo Salah hits 30 this season i'm all for having him at #9 next year and replacing him with someone like Lemar and going:

           Salah
Lemar Firmino Mane

(Assuming Coutinho leaves obviously)

Mertens and Griezmann are two of the best around at the minute and they were both wingers until a few years ago

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3277 on: November 6, 2017, 06:22:29 pm »
Also...

Although i've firmly been in the 'buy a fucking striker' camp for the past 2 seasons, if Mo Salah hits 30 this season i'm all for having him at #9 next year and replacing him with someone like Lemar and going:

           Salah
Lemar Firmino Mane

(Assuming Coutinho leaves obviously)

Mertens and Griezmann are two of the best around at the minute and they were both wingers until a few years ago

If Salah does score 30goals why the hell would you want to change his position?

Offline YerBaldyHead

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3278 on: November 6, 2017, 07:38:03 pm »
If Salah does score 30goals why the hell would you want to change his position?

Because his ability to score isn't hindered by the position in attack he plays. He's scored from all over this season, 2 on Saturday from ST.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #3279 on: November 7, 2017, 10:20:28 am »
Our wingers are our strikers. One of the main reasons our wingers are so dangerous is because our number 9 is so brilliant at dragging defenses out of position.



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