Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 12303748 times)

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100680 on: September 2, 2019, 08:51:16 pm »
Not really how it happened. It was only Solanke's performances in training and in pre-season that led to us being willing to loan out Origi.

Anyway, I don't get your point. On the one hand you're questioning whether Solanke was brought in as a genuine first teamer and now you seem to be providing an example to prove that he clearly was brought in as a first teamer?

If you just let him carry on talking he’ll quite often disprove his own points :D

Ings was signed under Rodgers and seemed a fairly Rodgers-esque hard working, quick striker. Suarez-lite-lite. Solanke was highly rated, it was a pretty sensible signing. Spend good money on a youngster with the idea that they either become part of the squad or we can sell at a profit if they don’t. That’s not exactly new is it?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100681 on: September 2, 2019, 08:51:24 pm »
I think journos close to the club are able to write from sources connected to the club and from what they seen themselves.

I’ve not seen anything from King, nor know him personally, to suggest (as you are) he’s a liar.

Except I haven't called him a liar.

For me he is a mouthpiece of the club and for me the piece he wrote is cherry picked to support the club and to show Duncan in a poor light. Timing is everything at the time the favoured journalists were on piece and were eulogising over the kids being given chances in the States. Duncan leaves and he comes out with a hatchet piece.

For me Rubie and the likes of Pearce and King have all done the same thing which is doing PR pieces for their own ulterior motives. Personally I don't trust what any of them are saying.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100682 on: September 2, 2019, 08:57:04 pm »
If you just let him carry on talking he’ll quite often disprove his own points :D

Ings was signed under Rodgers and seemed a fairly Rodgers-esque hard working, quick striker. Suarez-lite-lite. Solanke was highly rated, it was a pretty sensible signing. Spend good money on a youngster with the idea that they either become part of the squad or we can sell at a profit if they don’t. That’s not exactly new is it?

I think the primary motivation was that Ings had run down his contract and was available at below market value. A young English striker available for around a third of his value. For me there is a common theme there. English strikers are massively over valued and all three of Ings, Solanke and Duncan were available at way below their true value.
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100683 on: September 2, 2019, 08:59:23 pm »
If that's a hatchet piece you live a very sheltered life  ;D
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100684 on: September 2, 2019, 09:01:05 pm »
Rubie  ::)

If his career tanks then the only people to blame would be that creep and Bobby himself.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100685 on: September 2, 2019, 09:01:21 pm »
I think the primary motivation was that Ings had run down his contract and was available at below market value. A young English striker available for around a third of his value. For me there is a common theme there. English strikers are massively over valued and all three of Ings, Solanke and Duncan were available at way below their true value.

Isn't that what every non-petro dollar club does/would like to do in that they look to find value in the transfer market. Forgive the rudimental reasoning but wouldn't the club be thinking that If they work out, great, if not, they could be able to sell them at a profit and reinvest in the squad?
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100686 on: September 2, 2019, 09:08:04 pm »
Isn't that what every non-petro dollar club does/would like to do in that they look to find value in the transfer market. Forgive the rudimental reasoning but wouldn't the club be thinking that If they work out, great, if not, they could be able to sell them at a profit and reinvest in the squad?

From a business perspective yes it makes perfect sense. Which I am fine with but then I don't think it fair to have a hysterical reaction if a player doesn't want to be treated like a commodity and wants to do what they consider is best for their career.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100687 on: September 2, 2019, 09:14:38 pm »
I think the primary motivation was that Ings had run down his contract and was available at below market value. A young English striker available for around a third of his value. For me there is a common theme there. English strikers are massively over valued and all three of Ings, Solanke and Duncan were available at way below their true value.

And therein lies your problem Al, you can’t see past your own prejudices. You think the primary motivation of the club as a whole is about market value and making money.

Solanke was not a £18 million player when we signed him. You’ll embarrass yourself further to suggest that again. He was a good, highly rated young striker. He’d pretty much proven that he wasnt particularly prolific up to that point in his career. Nothing more. He was the same as practically any other young player we sign, if they do well they’ll go up substantially in value.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Hazell

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100688 on: September 2, 2019, 09:14:54 pm »
From a business perspective yes it makes perfect sense. Which I am fine with but then I don't think it fair to have a hysterical reaction if a player doesn't want to be treated like a commodity and wants to do what they consider is best for their career.

I don't necessarily disagree (although it's not just a business perspective, it's also a footballing perspective) but this particular situation is extraordinary given Duncan's agent's comments and him bringing his mental health into the public domain. Neither of us know know what the exact truth is and as usual with these things, we probably never will. I guess Duncan and his agent ultimately got what they wanted (and there's nothing wrong with Duncan wanting to leave) although they went about it in a bizarre fashion.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100689 on: September 2, 2019, 09:18:42 pm »
Sky just had a reporter based in Italy on saying the Bobby Duncan deal is actually €500k upfront + up to €1m based on appearances + sell on clause so deal may not be as good as is being reported in the uk press
Whether it was $2m, $500k or a bag of footballs makes little difference to us.  A potentially disruptive player is off our books.

If he defies the odds and makes it at Fiorentina then we have the 20% sell-on.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100690 on: September 2, 2019, 09:33:33 pm »
I don't necessarily disagree (although it's not just a business perspective, it's also a footballing perspective) but this particular situation is extraordinary given Duncan's agent's comments and him bringing his mental health into the public domain. Neither of us know know what the exact truth is and as usual with these things, we probably never will. I guess Duncan and his agent ultimately got what they wanted (and there's nothing wrong with Duncan wanting to leave) although they went about it in a bizarre fashion.

I think the club has got what it wanted aswell a profit on the player albeit a smaller one than they were hoping for. As for the agent  modern transfers often have a pantomime villain at the heart of it. Either the player or the agent takes the flak. Although I think Rubie has gone way over the mark in this instance.
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Offline PIPA23

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100691 on: September 2, 2019, 09:41:25 pm »
good luck to him, he will need it.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100692 on: September 2, 2019, 09:45:58 pm »
For me Rubie and the likes of Pearce and King have all done the same thing which is doing PR pieces for their own ulterior motives. Personally I don't trust what any of them are saying.

Yet you're literally being more critical of the Club, because they signed a young player and sold him for a profit, and a fairly reputable journalist, because they said a player wasn't ready for first team football, than you are to the agent - who accused an entity of bullying, *lied* about mental health issues and has a history of sexist and homophobic comments.

Just... Why?
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100693 on: September 2, 2019, 10:05:18 pm »
I think the club has got what it wanted aswell a profit on the player albeit a smaller one than they were hoping for. As for the agent  modern transfers often have a pantomime villain at the heart of it. Either the player or the agent takes the flak. Although I think Rubie has gone way over the mark in this instance.

Agree for the most part although not sure 'most' modern transfers do, they usually go through without any issues or even mention of an agent (and that's why this one has caused so much comment), unless of course Mino Raiola is involved :P
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100694 on: September 2, 2019, 10:18:17 pm »
Yet you're literally being more critical of the Club, because they signed a young player and sold him for a profit, and a fairly reputable journalist, because they said a player wasn't ready for first team football, than you are to the agent - who accused an entity of bullying, *lied* about mental health issues and has a history of sexist and homophobic comments.

Just... Why?


Please tell me that was rhetorical.
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100695 on: September 2, 2019, 10:56:41 pm »
My take on this is that the Club have made decisions on the likes of Kent, Camacho and Duncan amongst others and had decided that they didn't have a future here so they wanted to offload them and not loan them out. For me we have discovered a nice little sideline in bringing in the likes of Duncan, Solanke, Elliot and Ings on cut price compensation deals. We can then look to sell them on at a premium if they don't work out.

I'm confused here.  What is the problem with this?  We brought players in who ultimately weren't thought to be good enough for the level we are at.  Are we supposed to just let them go for free?  I think you sometimes forget that this is a business and these things have to be taken into account. 

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100696 on: September 3, 2019, 12:35:53 am »
Details of the Ryan Kent deal from Joyce

Kent to Rangers done. £6.5m initial fee, plus £1m in add ons. Liverpool negotiated 20pc cut of future sell on as belief is he could return to PL in future. Leeds United had £4.5m bid rejected on August 7 and FC Krasnodar £5m two weeks ago.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100697 on: September 3, 2019, 02:43:41 am »
It's the prerogative of a football club to try and get players at the lowest prices and sell them on at the highest prices, particularly when they're not needed in the first team.

It's also the prerogative of a football player to try and play as much as they can at the highest level they can, particularly when they are young players that need to play to develop.

None of that is really the issue here. The club has time and again tried to get good deals, including loans, for our young players, because that is both in the club's best interest and the player's. A young player that thrives at the right club takes a step in a positive direction to a real career, whether at Liverpool or elsewhere. If elsewhere is the answer, Liverpool reaps the benefits financially. There's plenty of scope for win-win there.

The issue on this occasion appears to be that Duncan's agent doesn't want his client to go through any of that process and instead wants him to be sold at age 18 to a foreign club.. because he's way more likely to get first team minutes there? Without knowing enough about just how good Duncan is (from what I've seen in pre-season friendlies, he's more than good enough to have a professional career somewhere, but far from a guarantee to be a top tier footballer, let alone at an elite club), it seems like this is a lose-lose situation. The club gets none of the opportunity to actually invest in the player's career path, and the player goes overseas where he has far fewer friends and none of the language to guide and advise him. Unless of course his agent knows something we don't, and Fiorentina is a better developer of young talent than Liverpool.

It's really a lose-lose-lose, because even the agent ultimately gets a cut of a tiny transfer fee, whereas if he had allowed Duncan to follow the path of his colleagues, it's pretty clear that there's a much bigger payday down the track.

Offline kloppismydad

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100698 on: September 3, 2019, 03:07:15 am »
I can't be the only one who thinks Al 666 is a shill?
Mark my words. Top 8 will be a massive struggle.
We won't make any big signings this season and we will go back to being a top4 club.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100699 on: September 3, 2019, 07:12:42 am »
I'm confused here.  What is the problem with this?  We brought players in who ultimately weren't thought to be good enough for the level we are at.  Are we supposed to just let them go for free?  I think you sometimes forget that this is a business and these things have to be taken into account.

It's the club doing what they should be doing.

If you look at Kent or Solanke under previous regimes we would have loaned them out till their value went to zero. The club were firm with Kent not being loaned.

The way we got our money back off Benteke and deal we got for Ings. It wouldn't have happened under Teflon Ayre or Parry.

Whether more of the sales should be invested back in the team is an argument worth making, but for years we wanted the club to be more effective at transfers.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2019, 07:18:34 am by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100700 on: September 3, 2019, 07:34:21 am »
Good luck to Kent, the contrast in how he and Duncan went about things is huge. Hope he does really well for Rangers, seems a good lad

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100701 on: September 3, 2019, 08:53:43 am »
I can't be the only one who thinks Al 666 is a shill?

At this point he’s become a poster who has a hatred of the owners so ingrained into him after years of arguing how bad and wrong they are, and someone who is clearly ridiculously stubborn and too proud to admit they were wrong, that he takes any chance to shout from the rooftops if he sees a chance.

He’s kind a parody account these days.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100702 on: September 3, 2019, 11:01:31 am »
At this point he’s become a poster who has a hatred of the owners so ingrained into him after years of arguing how bad and wrong they are, and someone who is clearly ridiculously stubborn and too proud to admit they were wrong, that he takes any chance to shout from the rooftops if he sees a chance.

He’s kind a parody account these days.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100703 on: September 3, 2019, 03:28:53 pm »
If I may move the conversation on for a mo, with Glatzel out for months and no Duncan, the U23s will have to rely on Brewster dropping down rather too heavily.  There is no other no 9 except Fidel O’Rourke and he has little experience at U23 level being still an U18s.  He didn’t even get that much play last season with Glatzel and Duncan on fire.   Bearne (also an U18s in age) is really only a No10 or wide man, ditto Harvey Elliott when he also drops from the firsts.  Our U23 defensive line is going to get severely tested this season.  Even if we have an interest in Wigan’s Gelhardt, we cannot buy until January.   I can see us bumping along the bottom of the table this season.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100704 on: September 3, 2019, 04:18:26 pm »
Has Larouci been spotted in the training pictures with the first team? He's listed with the first team on the website but I can't recall seeing him in the training pictures.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100705 on: September 3, 2019, 04:46:25 pm »
I'm confused here.  What is the problem with this?  We brought players in who ultimately weren't thought to be good enough for the level we are at.  Are we supposed to just let them go for free?  I think you sometimes forget that this is a business and these things have to be taken into account. 

I have already addressed this in an earlier post. I agree wholeheartedly that from a business perspective that bringing in players cheaply and then looking for the maximum return makes sense. The thing is we aren't talking about stocks or shares here or goods we are talking about human beings here.

If you are going to treat players as commodities that can be bought and sold then don't complain when you get negative press when the Club's financial return and what the player perceives as the best thing for their career don't align. 
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100706 on: September 3, 2019, 04:56:26 pm »
Good luck to Kent, the contrast in how he and Duncan went about things is huge. Hope he does really well for Rangers, seems a good lad

yeah. looks like a decent lad. maybe his agent is pretty decent too. and he have achieved way more than duncan as well.

Hope he and ojo shines under gerrard. Playing in the Europa league will also be beneficial in the long term hopefully.

Offline phil236849

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100707 on: September 3, 2019, 07:07:01 pm »
I have already addressed this in an earlier post. I agree wholeheartedly that from a business perspective that bringing in players cheaply and then looking for the maximum return makes sense. The thing is we aren't talking about stocks or shares here or goods we are talking about human beings here.

If you are going to treat players as commodities that can be bought and sold then don't complain when you get negative press when the Club's financial return and what the player perceives as the best thing for their career don't align. 

This is competitive football, big boy sh!t.  Buying and selling is part of the rules of engagement.  We do not behave badly.  Your agenda seems to be fuelled by the Duncan episode, where  in fact we were trying not to sell, but to develop the player, and then we gave him his wish when his agent pressed.  The agent's tantrum was well-publicised but all media reports have been sympathetic to the Club.  A choir of one ain't a choir

Offline Fromola

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100708 on: September 3, 2019, 07:36:36 pm »
I have already addressed this in an earlier post. I agree wholeheartedly that from a business perspective that bringing in players cheaply and then looking for the maximum return makes sense. The thing is we aren't talking about stocks or shares here or goods we are talking about human beings here.

If you are going to treat players as commodities that can be bought and sold then don't complain when you get negative press when the Club's financial return and what the player perceives as the best thing for their career don't align.

If the club have told the player to leave and find another club, before this all kicked off, then there's the point to be made.

If it's the player who has chosen to leave then the club are within their rights to at least be able to negotiate a reasonable settlement, rather than have their pants pulled down by Fiorentina and the agent. The club have worked hard to build up a reputation for standing their ground. You can't let people walk all over you, whether it's players, agents or other clubs.

You know yourself how certain agents and agencies took the piss out of us for years. I'd rather this approach than the days of the likes of Purslow sorting out Cole and Carragher with crazy contracts when the club was bankrupt and jobs for the boys.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2019, 07:42:55 pm by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100709 on: September 3, 2019, 08:03:42 pm »
This is competitive football, big boy sh!t.  Buying and selling is part of the rules of engagement.  We do not behave badly.  Your agenda seems to be fuelled by the Duncan episode, where  in fact we were trying not to sell, but to develop the player, and then we gave him his wish when his agent pressed.  The agent's tantrum was well-publicised but all media reports have been sympathetic to the Club.  A choir of one ain't a choir

If we don't behave badly then why did Duncan have to train with Wigan until he was old enough to avoid our ban on signing academy players.
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Offline phil236849

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100710 on: September 3, 2019, 08:07:50 pm »
If we don't behave badly then why did Duncan have to train with Wigan until he was old enough to avoid our ban on signing academy players.

Was Duncan complaining then? 

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100711 on: September 3, 2019, 08:17:31 pm »
Was Duncan complaining then? 

Sorry but you don't judge whether you are acting correctly by asking whether a player you have clearly tapped up is happy or not.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100712 on: September 3, 2019, 11:04:24 pm »
Sorry but you don't judge whether you are acting correctly by asking whether a player you have clearly tapped up is happy or not.

You are complaining that the club used Duncan as a commodity, and you are relying on Duncan having to train with Wigan to avoid our ban, which plainly he was happy to do.  Which means you are just complaining.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100713 on: September 3, 2019, 11:21:45 pm »
Flanagan now Duncan, what a mad link we have with Fiorentina .
No time for caution.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100714 on: September 3, 2019, 11:27:34 pm »
Aquilani and N’goo as well

We must have some kind of partnership going with them
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100715 on: September 3, 2019, 11:38:01 pm »
I have already addressed this in an earlier post. I agree wholeheartedly that from a business perspective that bringing in players cheaply and then looking for the maximum return makes sense. The thing is we aren't talking about stocks or shares here or goods we are talking about human beings here.

If you are going to treat players as commodities that can be bought and sold then don't complain when you get negative press when the Club's financial return and what the player perceives as the best thing for their career don't align.

The conversation probably needs to move on at this point but I don't think people are upset that the player wanted to leave it was more how the agent acted that got people upset. 

Offline Fromola

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100716 on: September 4, 2019, 11:51:46 am »
Flanagan now Duncan, what a mad link we have with Fiorentina .

Their scout must have LFCTVGo
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100717 on: September 4, 2019, 04:19:26 pm »
Fuck the Daily Mail.
Abolish FIFA

Offline Floop

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100718 on: September 4, 2019, 04:44:14 pm »
Have to say I expected to see Herbie Kane go on loan to a championship this season, will be interesting to see what the plan is for him.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100719 on: September 4, 2019, 05:54:55 pm »
Bit odd considering he spent pre-season with the U23s, is listed with the academy boys, and doesn't appear to be training with the first team squad now the season has started. Curtis Jones appears to ahead of him in the pecking order and he'll struggle to make the starting line up for the league and FA Cup games unless there are injuries.