Topic: Lionel Messi

[FlashGordon]

Is there a breakdown out there anywhere of when these goals were scored in Champions League knockouts and what time of the game etc.

All well and good saying he's scored more goals but they could be in the last 16 against Schalke etc. when they're already 4-0 up on aggregate.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Is there a breakdown out there anywhere of when these goals were scored in Champions League knockouts and what time of the game etc.

All well and good saying he's scored more goals but they could be in the last 16 against Schalke etc. when they're already 4-0 up on aggregate.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2244072.html

It's a goal for goal comparison in the knockout stages but there is not a time when they were scored

[RayPhilAlan]

Messi is much better at manipulating the ball to do what he wants - touch, control, putting the ball where he wants - than cRonaldo (who is also very good at it, arguably only Messi and Neymar of current players are better).

Messi is much better at reacting to the opposition player's movement and body shape- e.g. sensing how the defender/keeper is about to move or how they're balanced/which foot the weight of their body is on - so he can exploit that by putting the ball where they can't get to it. Ronaldo is also good at this but it's not even close - Messi is a genius at it.

Messi has a much better understanding of how he can exploit the shape of the opposition's back line at a given time so is better at knowing the right ball to play (and as mentioned earlier, he is brilliant at executing that by putting the ball where he wants it). Playmaking basically.

cRonaldo is much better at using his physicality than Messi. No one bullies the grizzled Atletico or Juve centre backs. No one except cRonaldo that is. It's a trait that's possibly frowned upon by people who see football as an art, but it's bloody effective and an amazing tool to have in a team's locker - if you can't play a team of the park, bully them in the air instead. Drogba and Shearer made excellent careers of the back of that. cRonaldo is better than both of them at it. In fact, he's probably the best there's ever been at that.

cRonaldo is possibly the best I've ever seen at centre forward positioning. Again, maybe not an appreciated quality, but exploiting the space and defenders movement by being in the right place at the right time is a really important quality. Players like Lineker and Inzaghi have made excellent careers on that back of that, and all top strikers, like Fowler, have had phenomenal positioning strength. In my opinion cRonaldo is better than all of them at it. Not sure how good Messi is at that as he doesn't play as a traditional striker so hasn't really needed to try it. He'd probably be boss at it tbf.

cRonaldo is better than Messi at delivering goals in the big games, as his CL knockout record attests.


Overall I think Messi is the better player.

That's a good summary, just one question: when you say better at delivering goals, do you mean scoring, or scoring plus assisting?

[mikey_LFC]

I think that’s a fairly good summary.

The thing is, when I look at decent footballers your description of what Messi is better at there, is pretty much what I am looking for. Ball manipulation and reading of the game, or understanding and execution.

I’d tend to distinguish great footballers from great goal scorers. Harry Kane is probably the clearest example of this. Ronaldo is like the very best Harry Kane.

Only point I’m not convinced on is who is better on the big occasion. Messi has scored in every champions league final he’s played in and has the better scoring record in el Clasicos, which are huge occasions every time.

I’d actually say in Ronaldo has been ineffective in 3 out of the 4 finals Real Madrid have won with him. He was also less effective than you’d want in his United finals, including the 2008-09 final when Messi ran the show.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Yes, at the same time not all knockout matches are equal in terms of quality of opponents.

[and that goes for both players]

This is true but the sheer volume of goals that cRonaldo has scored more than Messi in the late stages makes me think he's better at delivering goals in those games. And he seems to do it against top opposition (Atleti, Juve, Munich, etc) a hell of a lot in those games.

This graphic is now a couple of years out of date - Ronaldo has increased his 'lead' over Messi in this regards in those two years - but you get the drift.

That's a good summary, just one question: when you say better at delivering goals, do you mean scoring, or scoring plus assisting?

I meant scoring, but I was surprised to find out today that Ronaldo has assisted more times than Messi in the CL over the last 10 years too - not sure what stage those goals came in though. (See here - https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=255148.msg16530474#msg16530474)

Only point I’m not convinced on is who is better on the big occasion. Messi has scored in every champions league final he’s played in and has the better scoring record in el Clasicos, which are huge occasions every time.

He hasn't - he didn't score in 2015.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Messi's goals and assists in knock-out stages of the CL

2 goals v Celtic [07/08]
3 goals, 2 assists v Lyon,Bayern,Chelsea,United [08/09]
6 goals v Stuttgart,Arsenal [09/10]
6 goals, 2 assists v Arsenal,Shaktar,Real,United [10/11]
8 goals , 1 assist, v Bayer, Chelsea, Milan [11/12]
3 goals v Milan,PSG [12/13]
2 goals v Man City [13/14]
2 goals, 3 assists v Bayern,PSG,City [14/15]
3 goals v Arsenal [15/16]
1 goal v PSG [16/17]
3 goals, 1 assist v Chelsea [17/18]
2 goals, 2 assists v Lyon [18/19]


Goals: 41
Assists : 11
Total Contribution: 52

[jooneyisdagod]

I don't judge who is the best player of a generation based on just the last two seasons (and CL knockout football this season has just started), so it's a silly argument you are making and thus doesn't require a response. We have over a decade of Ronaldo's performance in the most important and difficult comeptition against the best teams in Europe to judge him on.

In terms of stats, they are close to eachother on every other front. The deciding factor for me is their performance when it really counts which is the CL. Messi wins the eye tests no doubt, but Ronaldo's influence and importance at the truly highest level is greater than Messis. Messi is younger and can catch up on Ronaldo, but until he does, I am going with Ronaldo.

The Mane argument is exactly what you're putting forward but with the names reversed and in a different time period. And you say it's silly. I hope you can see exactly how stupid your line of argument is. I hope you're not a scientist because you seem to cherry pick the one statistic to suit you while ignoring absolutely everything else. As others on this thread have also said, that's very "LFC when it suits".

Ronaldo has nowhere near the same assists as Messi unless you ignore a bulk of the season, which you're keen to do, not because it makes sense but because it suits you. You're chatting some absolute shit here to be honest. No two ways about it.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[slaphead]

Is there a breakdown out there anywhere of when these goals were scored in Champions League knockouts and what time of the game etc.

All well and good saying he's scored more goals but they could be in the last 16 against Schalke etc. when they're already 4-0 up on aggregate.

I could be well off with this but I always get the feeling that a lot of Ronaldo's goals are scored the last third or so of a game. Which isn't a criticism at all, quite the opposite, but he's always a great bet to score last. His game seems to go up a gear when the fitness levels are tested.

[Dull Tools]

Even if Messi had never scored a goal he would be better than Ronaldo.

If we are just talking goals scored the Maradona is well out of the question. It's rididulous.

[mikey_LFC]

Yeah was misremembering the finals. Was sure he’s scored In that 2015 one.

Either way he’s been exceptional in every final, unlike Ronaldo.

[Djozer]

Anyone who thinks Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi is just a bit weird, really. Better at scoring goals in European knockouts, better in the air, better at posing and preening. That's literally it.

[jooneyisdagod]

Moreover, Messi IS the system. He dominates games and owns the play. This probably explains why his "influence" isn't as great in the later stages of the CL where other teams are also incredibly strong. Ronaldo hangs in the periphery of the game looking to poach a goal. And the late stage CL games where Real don't dominate plays into his strengths somewhat as the margins are finer, and a goal poacher would be very useful to have in those circumstances.

But no matter how you look at it, Messi often creates his own goals with a dribble and a piece of genius. Ronaldo is fantastic at most things but he cannot and does not score the type of goals Messi does frequently. Messi could score the kind of goals Ronaldo does easily, headers apart.

[dimwit]

...Ronaldo...Ronaldo...

What the fuck..

And there I was going about my life figuring there can't be anyone anymore in the world placating the ill named, thus the fake Ronaldo, christiano as the best of the best,
the king of the hill, so to speak.

Even though in every metrics imaginable to the sport, he's been inferior.

Amazing player? Yes!
Goalscorer of his era? Absolutely!
Won everything on his own?... Err no..

As many have pointed out in this thread, Ronaldo wouldn't be what he is without the amazing teams built around him. He was great because, not instead of those teams.

Now this is not a dig on the diving c*nt, far from it. He is the epitome of a player realising his shortdoings at a young age and adjusting to that, making the absolute best out of what he had. And he really did that.

Became the monster infront of goal, both for opposition and his own team. Egos and such.

But Messi he is not, fair play for giving him a run for his money though.

[Red Being]

So classicos are bigger than CL quarters, semis and finals?

So, you need to further rank the big games, and then assess the performance? How silly is that? The clasico is as big as it can get with respect to this rivalry. Do you think the Madrid team or Ronaldo would have taken a clasico lighter than any of their CL games?

[Red Being]

cRonaldo is better than Messi at delivering goals in the big games, as his CL knockout record attests.


Overall I think Messi is the better player.

Just why don't you consider the fact that there can be BIG GAMES in the league as well? Just why? Don't you realize that a good number of clasicos during Ronaldo's Madrid era were as good as any CL game in terms of 'bigness'?

[PoetryInMotion]

What the fuck..

And there I was going about my life figuring there can't be anyone anymore in the world placating the ill named, thus the fake Ronaldo, christiano as the best of the best,
the king of the hill, so to speak.

Even though in every metrics imaginable to the sport, he's been inferior.

Amazing player? Yes!
Goalscorer of his era? Absolutely!
Won everything on his own?... Err no..

As many have pointed out in this thread, Ronaldo wouldn't be what he is without the amazing teams built around him. He was great because, not instead of those teams.

Now this is not a dig on the diving c*nt, far from it. He is the epitome of a player realising his shortdoings at a young age and adjusting to that, making the absolute best out of what he had. And he really did that.

Became the monster infront of goal, both for opposition and his own team. Egos and such.

But Messi he is not, fair play for giving him a run for his money though.

Yeah, this 'Carrying' Real Madrid on his own thing is extremely tedious and tiresome. One of the most expensively assembled squads with World Class players in every position, yet only he carried them for all their wins. Ridiculous and absolute drivel.

[Red Being]

Guardiolas Barca was the best team in it's time because they won the CL 2 out of 3 season. It's for no other reason. Had they not won any champiosn leagues in those 3 seasons, they would never never be considered the best team of it's time. Look at Guardiola's Bayern to see how they would be viewed.

which team do you think is better - Pep's Barca or Zidane's Madrid?

[PoetryInMotion]

Maradona was the artist, Ronaldo is the end product and Messi is the complete package.

That's my view on these players. My Top 10 ranking based on watching old footages, games & reading a lot of material (only attackers & attacking midfielders in it) would be Messi, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Garrincha, C Ronaldo, Zidane, Puskas and Ronaldo (Brazillian).

[Xabi Gerrard]

Just why don't you consider the fact that there can be BIG GAMES in the league as well? Just why? Don't you realize that a good number of clasicos during Ronaldo's Madrid era were as good as any CL game in terms of 'bigness'?

Champions League knockout games are generally 'bigger' in my opinion because the stakes are so much higher - you either go through or you're out all together. That's rarely the case in league games. I agree that some La Liga Classicos have also had massive stakes (due to the closeness between the teams and the lack of remaining games to rectify a loss), but those are rare.

Oh, and "Just why? .... Just why?" Relax mate.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Maradona was the artist, Ronaldo is the end product and Messi is the complete package.

Think that's unfair to characterize Maradona as just an artist. Yep, he was an artist, but he was also an aggressive hard-as-nails fucker with as much, if not more, determination than the likes of Souness and Roy Keane.

[Mark Walters]

which team do you think is better - Pep's Barca or Zidane's Madrid?

Pep's Barca would play Zidane's Madrid off the park.  It wouldn't even be close.

[Vinay]

which team do you think is better - Pep's Barca or Zidane's Madrid?

Pep's Barca has pissed on better Madrid team than Zidane's. Literally.

[Corkboy]

Pep's Barca has pissed on better Madrid team than Zidane's. Literally.

[Samie]

Rijkaard's Barca would piss and shit on both. 

[Xabi Gerrard]

Pep's Barca has pissed on better Madrid team than Zidane's. Literally.

I remember the famous Golden Shower of 2010 well

[puroresu_kid]

Just look at a heatmap for Lionel Messi and then ask yourself how the hell does a player who operates in those areas get so many goals, so many assists and influence a game so much.   Messi's heatmap is more similar to a David Silva than a player who who scores 35+ goals a season, it defies logic.

I dont need some list of trophies to tell me who is the better player.  Just watch them play and it's not even close.  Ronaldo is an amazing player and truly one of the greats but Lionel Messi is the greatest and I dont expect to see anyone like him for decades.

[Broad Spectrum]

 

[PoetryInMotion]

Think that's unfair to characterize Maradona as just an artist. Yep, he was an artist, but he was also an aggressive hard-as-nails fucker with as much, if not more, determination than the likes of Souness and Roy Keane.

I didn't say he was 'just' an artist. You're putting words on my mouth there. I'm giving equal importance to the word 'artist', which is why Zidane also scores high in my all-time list. What I meant is that out of the three players in discussion, those were the terms that I'd use to describe them primarily.

After all, I think Maradona is the 3rd best player ever.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Ronaldo is an amazing player and truly one of the greats but Lionel Messi is the greatest and I dont expect to see anyone like him for decades ever.

When he finishes he will have all the records and nobody will come close

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Moreover, Messi IS the system. He dominates games and owns the play. This probably explains why his "influence" isn't as great in the later stages of the CL where other teams are also incredibly strong. Ronaldo hangs in the periphery of the game looking to poach a goal. And the late stage CL games where Real don't dominate plays into his strengths somewhat as the margins are finer, and a goal poacher would be very useful to have in those circumstances.

But no matter how you look at it, Messi often creates his own goals with a dribble and a piece of genius. Ronaldo is fantastic at most things but he cannot and does not score the type of goals Messi does frequently. Messi could score the kind of goals Ronaldo does easily, headers apart.

The difference in his performances between Barca and Argentina would suggest otherwise.

[elsewhere]

At what age do you see him retiring? There has been talks 3-4 years ago that he is not the same player anymore and his decline will be big but he actually plays like he has improved in the last few years. He is already 31, even though the way he plays now needs his pace and quickness, because that he is so genius in reading the defenses, I can see him playing until 36-37. Heck, I would actually pay him a fee at age 37 just for freekicks and corners alone.

For those who follow him well, did he ever say he is into management after retiring?

[jooneyisdagod]

The difference in his performances between Barca and Argentina would suggest otherwise.

He is still the system for both teams. The difference is that Argentina's pieces don't fit so nicely into the system that is Messi and they have not had a coach that could make it fit. Nevertheless, they've made it to two Copa America finals and one world cup final. Not so bad for a broken system.

[Clayton Bigsby]

At what age do you see him retiring? There has been talks 3-4 years ago that he is not the same player anymore and his decline will be big but he actually plays like he has improved in the last few years. He is already 31, even though the way he plays now needs his pace and quickness, because that he is so genius in reading the defenses, I can see him playing until 36-37. Heck, I would actually pay him a fee at age 37 just for freekicks and corners alone.

For those who follow him well, did he ever say he is into management after retiring?

If his pace drastically goes he will just go further back and score a mere 20 goals a season every season. As long as you surround him with two water carriers he will still take a a whole team with one shoulder drop and be as creative as ever. I see him playing 3-4 years at Barca and then for Newells Old Boys as a swansong because he has mentioned that in the past

[elsewhere]

https://www.marca.com/en/football/barcelona/2019/03/20/5c9211c9e5fdea3b078b45e9.html

Head Of European Genome Archive Claims Messi Could Be Cloned

The head of the European Genome Archive claimed that he could clone Messi with the help of modern science.

"We could get a player very similar to Messi. We would be able to clone him with current techniques and get something that would look like a twin. If would be as if two twins had been born and one of them would have been kept frozen in a time chamber. Then 20 or 30 years later we would return him to his correct time. If everything had went well, it would be the same," said Arcadi Navarro.

Navarro added that a clone wouldn't necessarily guarantee a superstar player.

"Genetics gives us a scope. This person could have the same potential as Messi but in the end, Messi's footballing qualities have two components. One is very clear and it is genetic and the other is educational, circumstantial and environmental. Messi is Messi and isn't who he is only because of genetics. He is a product of his environment, of growing up in La Masia, of the hormonal treatment he received...What genetics does is to give a potential, as was the case with Messi but whether that is fulfilled or not comes down to the circumstances and what happens around us," he added.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Imagine if they clone him but he refuses to be a footballer and work as a notary public instead.

[elsewhere]

If his pace drastically goes he will just go further back and score a mere 20 goals a season every season. As long as you surround him with two water carriers he will still take a a whole team with one shoulder drop and be as creative as ever. I see him playing 3-4 years at Barca and then for Newells Old Boys as a swansong because he has mentioned that in the past

[oojason]

Bagged both goals in the 2-0 win vs Espanyol today... 1 a Panenka style freekick - https://streamable.com/xma4l


https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1112033530274566144:-

'Messi reaches 40 goals (all competitions) for the TENTH consecutive season'


https://twitter.com/optajose/status/1112040534456057858?s=21:-

'334 - @FCBarcelona_es ’s Leo Messi is now the player to win more games in LaLiga history  (334, alongside Iker Casillas). Myth.'

[newterp]

The free kick goal was horrible. What are the defender and goalie doing?

[gamble]

Shoot me if I’m wrong, was he aiming for the defenders head or one of his own teammates heads?

[oojason]

'Another Lionel Messi masterclass | His highlights vs Man Utd as he tore them apart' - from BT Sport...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/LHa4abHa96M" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/LHa4abHa96M</a>

[rushyman]

Jones bottom is sore