Topic: The barbarity that is Syria

[oldfordie]

Looks like the USA have lost all faith in the UN. the USA will act regardless with or without UN backing, probably with the UK+France.

[So… Howard Philips]

Doesnt seem to bother them in Yemen.

Probably because the Yemeni's haven't a functioning Air Force nor an effective air defence system.

Easier and safer to bomb Sanaa than Damascus.

[Libertine]

Turkey, Saudia Arabia and Qatar could of ended it early.  They could of taken out Assad's air force pretty quickly for starters.

I'd have little faith in the ability of their armed forces to achieve that and zero faith in their motives.

Syria is what happens when the West abdicates responsibility. It's been utterly shameful.

[Circa1892]

Looks like the USA have lost all faith in the UN. the USA will act regardless with or without UN backing, probably with the UK+France.

The UN Security Council is a lost cause. The veto makes collective action impossible.

[Conocinico]

This situation would not have been perfect if we had put troops on the ground to manage the conflict, but it is difficult to se how it could be any worse.

Speaking of that, how's Libya getting on nowadays?

[oldfordie]

The UN Security Council is a lost cause. The veto makes collective action impossible.

Yep. am sure the USA agree, they veto and life goes until the next attack.

[bigbonedrawky]

And there it is.

A regional solution. A great pity it didn't happen but they, like the West, didn't want to get embroiled in a civil war.

Turkey Quatar and Saud's Arabia have been up to their necks in this " Civil War " since the first weeks . They didn't send their Airforce though
they sent thousands of jihadi's instead, without these the "Civil War" would of been over within weeks or even months.   
And they didn't do it for the Syrian people, Democracy or Human Rights They did it so they can get a gas pipe from Saudi Arabia to Turkey
and then across the Bos to Europe.Which would end the reliance on Russian gas...Plus they get to rid themselves of the troublesome Jihadi's
who might cause unrest at home. ( A bit like Salman Abade going to Libya and then on to Syria ).
Ps     
Iran and Syria had also agreed to build a gas pipe from Iran to the Med but it looks like Iran is now looking East to India and China.
 
On the subject of western intervention ...Afgan Iraq and WMDs  f*cked that one up... Even the UN sanctioned "No fly zone " in Libya were abused.
It's almost as if the policemen of the World have a lack of credibility and a bit of a reputation for lying and making things worse.
I don't suppose it helps when the majority of our leaders are habitual liars, who lack credibility ...     
 

[Conocinico]

The UN Security Council is a lost cause. The veto makes collective action impossible.

I don't know. Isn't having a limit to power a good thing, even if that limit is in the hands of an absolute c*nt?

It's almost as if the policemen of the World have a lack of credibility and a bit of a reputation for lying and making things worse.

I think this is true too. You fuck with your credibility at your peril.

[Circa1892]

I don't know. Isn't having a limit to power a good thing, even if that limit is in the hands of an absolute c*nt?

It absolutely is, in theory. But Russia and the US have abused their veto consistently for decades.

I’d say the UN has about the same credibility as the League of Nations now.

[killer-heels]

It absolutely is, in theory. But Russia and the US have abused their veto consistently for decades.

I’d say the UN has about the same credibility as the League of Nations now.

So Trump aas right, it is a bag of shite.

[Yorkykopite]

Just revealed that the Syrian army deliberately tracked down and killed the Sunday Times journalist Marie Colvin.

[classycarra]

On the subject of western intervention ...Afgan Iraq and WMDs  f*cked that one up... Even the UN sanctioned "No fly zone " in Libya were abused.
It's almost as if the policemen of the World have a lack of credibility and a bit of a reputation for lying and making things worse.

Do tell how the west has made things worse? Bit of an odd conclusion when you're railing on western intervention.

So western intervention is bad, but their lack of intervention this time has made things worse? So much cognitive dissonance!

[J_Kopite]

This thread is astonishing...

It consists of details of an interview of one of the ISIS Beatles... British terrorists.

https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/982935563694215168?s=21

He’s quite happy with slavery but not parking tickets...

This man is a filthy excuse for a human being..

Why even give him coverage to air that filth? Fucking seriously?

[TepidT2O]

Why even give him coverage to air that filth? Fucking seriously?

I think it’s important to see these people.  To see how utterly self obsessed and without remorse they are.

[J_Kopite]

I think it’s important to see these people.  To see how utterly self obsessed and without remorse they are.

Completely disagree, they're remorseless and won't change - so refuse to give them airtime to shout their disgusting views, so you don't get their message out there or give them the satisfaction of knowing they are being listened to.

[Trada]

The Times saying that May said she needs more evidence that it was Syria that did the attack.

Where to begin with that.

[TepidT2O]

The Times saying that May said she needs more evidence that it was Syria that did the attack.

Where to begin with that.

The telegraph says the opposite...

Which is odd..

[killer-heels]

The Times saying that May said she needs more evidence that it was Syria that did the attack.

Where to begin with that.

They are buying time so that they can decide what to do. Its one thing blaming Russia diplomatically. Its another to take action against the Syrian army which has Russian troops working with them.

Any large scale attack on Syria could result in Russian Army deaths and then we have the potential for a huge, dangerous conflict directly with Russia.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

The Times saying that May said she needs more evidence that it was Syria that did the attack.

Where to begin with that.

More evidence is absolutely needed.  I remain unconvinced that Assad has carried this through despite clear warnings regarding the use of chemical weapons over the last 2 years. It does not make sense at all. 

Its funny how the west never learn from the lessons in the past. Jumping into conflicts with flimsy evidence and affecting regime changes has brought a lot of peace and stability in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya so far. 

The way people are absolutely certain about Syria being responsible for this. Have they seen the evidence themselves and analysed it to reach a definitive conclusion, or are they just parroting what the media tells them? 

I hope the actors can reach a consensus on conducting in depth investigation into the whole thing by independent and neutral experts, as demanded by Russia.  Right now its just US and its 'allies' throwing accusations at Syria and Russia without any verifiable evidence. Nobody has seen the results of the so called 'investigation' conducted by US and its 'allies'.

There is far more to it than we know at the point.  The western media is inciting and parroting the need for intervention due to 'moral' reasons, the same way they did with Iraq and other such examples of failed regime change programmes.

Military action right now is pretty much the worst thing the west can do, given the fact that Russia WILL retaliate if they are impacted in any way.  This is not a weak Iraq or a stateless Afghanistan we are talking about.  This is Russia, with an Airforce the size of all of Europe and South America combined  and more nuclear weapons you could ever hope to count.

I am fully aware of the fact that many on here hold a steadfast belief in the authenticity and veracity of US and its 'allies' claims, unshaken by lessons offered by history. As far as they are concerned, its the gallant west 'rescuing' poor Syrians from the diabolical Syrian regime and their unholy allies in Russia and Iran.  Its a great narrative to tell your people to justify invasion and regime change.

I am loath to enter into a debate on this as this is not the right forum for it. 

[Yorkykopite]

More evidence is absolutely needed.  I remain unconvinced that Assad has carried this through despite clear warnings regarding the use of chemical weapons over the last 2 years. It does not make sense at all. 

Its funny how the west never learn from the lessons in the past. Jumping into conflicts with flimsy evidence and affecting regime changes has brought a lot of peace and stability in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya so far. 

The way people are absolutely certain about Syria being responsible for this. Have they seen the evidence themselves and analysed it to reach a definitive conclusion, or are they just parroting what the media tells them? 

I hope the actors can reach a consensus on conducting in depth investigation into the whole thing by independent and neutral experts, as demanded by Russia.  Right now its just US and its 'allies' throwing accusations at Syria and Russia without any verifiable evidence. Nobody has seen the results of the so called 'investigation' conducted by US and its 'allies'.

There is far more to it than we know at the point.  The western media is inciting and parroting the need for intervention due to 'moral' reasons, the same way they did with Iraq and other such examples of failed regime change programmes.

Military action right now is pretty much the worst thing the west can do, given the fact that Russia WILL retaliate if they are impacted in any way.  This is not a weak Iraq or a stateless Afghanistan we are talking about.  This is Russia, with an Airforce the size of all of Europe and South America combined  and more nuclear weapons you could ever hope to count.

I am fully aware of the fact that many on here hold a steadfast belief in the authenticity and veracity of US and its 'allies' claims, unshaken by lessons offered by history. As far as they are concerned, its the gallant west 'rescuing' poor Syrians from the diabolical Syrian regime and their unholy allies in Russia and Iran.  Its a great narrative to tell your people to justify invasion and regime change.

I am loath to enter into a debate on this as this is not the right forum for it. 

How often do we hear this? All based on the weird and historically illiterate idea that Assad - or any dictator - is a rational actor.

What bit of Assad’s policy since 2011 “makes sense”? I’d love to know.

[killer-heels]

Russia has said not only will it attempt to shoot down any missiles but also target the point of launch.

[Devon Red]

More evidence is absolutely needed.  I remain unconvinced that Assad has carried this through despite clear warnings regarding the use of chemical weapons over the last 2 years. It does not make sense at all. 

Its funny how the west never learn from the lessons in the past. Jumping into conflicts with flimsy evidence and affecting regime changes has brought a lot of peace and stability in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya so far. 

The way people are absolutely certain about Syria being responsible for this. Have they seen the evidence themselves and analysed it to reach a definitive conclusion, or are they just parroting what the media tells them? 

I hope the actors can reach a consensus on conducting in depth investigation into the whole thing by independent and neutral experts, as demanded by Russia.  Right now its just US and its 'allies' throwing accusations at Syria and Russia without any verifiable evidence. Nobody has seen the results of the so called 'investigation' conducted by US and its 'allies'.

There is far more to it than we know at the point.  The western media is inciting and parroting the need for intervention due to 'moral' reasons, the same way they did with Iraq and other such examples of failed regime change programmes.

Military action right now is pretty much the worst thing the west can do, given the fact that Russia WILL retaliate if they are impacted in any way.  This is not a weak Iraq or a stateless Afghanistan we are talking about.  This is Russia, with an Airforce the size of all of Europe and South America combined  and more nuclear weapons you could ever hope to count.

I am fully aware of the fact that many on here hold a steadfast belief in the authenticity and veracity of US and its 'allies' claims, unshaken by lessons offered by history. As far as they are concerned, its the gallant west 'rescuing' poor Syrians from the diabolical Syrian regime and their unholy allies in Russia and Iran.  Its a great narrative to tell your people to justify invasion and regime change.

I am loath to enter into a debate on this as this is not the right forum for it.

Russia just vetoed an independent investigation. Assad has a long history of denying access to outside investigators and even humanitarian organisations. I agree that evidence is paramount, but I also think it's important to recognise that Russia and Assad are doing everything they can to prevent evidence gathering. They are acting exactly as a guilty party would be expected to act.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

How often do we hear this? All based on the weird and historically illiterate idea that Assad - or any dictator - is a rational actor.

What bit of Assad’s policy since 2011 “makes sense”? I’d love to know.

Any dictator clinging on to power will do everything to convince the world that they are the least worst option for Syria and dropping chemical weapons on citizens is literally the worst way to go about trying to accomplish that.  They have won the war, the remaining rebels could be crushed in a few months with Russia and Iran's assistance or at worst remain an annoyance rather than a genuine threat.

Basic law of self preservation applies equally to 'irrational' dictators. Despite everything else, the most favourable outcome for him is to hang on to power and participate in the future elections.

I can understand one or two bad decisions, but this is beyond irrational. This is self defeating and that is why i remain skeptical of the narrative going around in the media and forums. Its all very convenient and in place.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Russia has said not only will it attempt to shoot down any missiles but also target the point of launch.

And they absolutely have the firepower to do that, which is why the threat of war is very real here. Putin will be politically obliged to react with equal or greater force to any US provocation in Syria, which will mean escalation and the looming possibility of a nuclear war.

The west need to back down from their "lets do something NOW" stance and allow for more thorough investigation by credibly neutral parties and wait for the outcome. No good is going to come out of it.

I keep harping back to history, but see for yourself how many 'successful' interventions and engineered regime changes have been made in the last few decades? None, if I can recall correctly.

[Nobby Reserve]

Any dictator clinging on to power will do everything to convince the world that they are the least worst option for Syria and dropping chemical weapons on citizens is literally the worst way to go about trying to accomplish that.  They have won the war, the remaining rebels could be crushed in a few months with Russia and Iran's assistance or at worst remain an annoyance rather than a genuine threat.

Basic law of self preservation applies equally to 'irrational' dictators. Despite everything else, the most favourable outcome for him is to hang on to power and participate in the future elections.

I can understand one or two bad decisions, but this is beyond irrational. This is self defeating and that is why i remain skeptical of the narrative going around in the media and forums. Its all very convenient and in place.

I think that the most likely culprits are the Syrian military - but the points you raise about motive and implications are very valid, and I just cannot see any sense in the Assad regime using them in a situation they'll have 'resolved' soon anyway. Especially when the potential consequences to themselves are so clear and possibly dire.

Point to Devon Red - the US proposed an independent investigation with the power to apportion blame. Russia vetoed that and proposed an independent investigation that would deliver its results to the UN Security Council, who would then decide on apportioning blame. Russia obviously wanted the opportunity to influence the announced conclusion, but they were - at least on the face of it - happy for an independent investigation to be undertaken.

[Devon Red]

Point to Devon Red - the US proposed an independent investigation with the power to apportion blame. Russia vetoed that and proposed an independent investigation that would deliver its results to the UN Security Council, who would then decide on apportioning blame. Russia obviously wanted the opportunity to influence the announced conclusion, but they were - at least on the face of it - happy for an independent investigation to be undertaken.

Exactly, Russia wanted to have the power to influence the outcome of the investigation, making it no longer independent. Voting against a genuinely independent investigation with full powers makes the Russians look guilty.

Also, this news breaking; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43725352 "The World Health Organization (WHO) has demanded "unhindered access" to Douma in Syria, to check reports from its partners that 500 people have been affected by a chemical attack there." I assume that an innocent Assad would grant this access immediately.

[TepidT2O]

A must read article on the evidence of the attack...

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

[killer-heels]

A must read article on the evidence of the attack...

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

Its quite clearly Syria. But unfortunately saying we stand against the use of chemical weapons and then proving that by potentially killing Russian soldiers is completely different. This could escalate massively and its absolutely right that everyone is taking their time over this.

Hopefully there is a good ending because a potential war against Russia isnt good, no matter what you are standing up for.

[Nobby Reserve]

Sage words in the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/10/israel-russia-syria-netanyahu-iran-middle-east

[CornerFlag]

"Russian military says samples taken from the site of the alleged chemical weapons attack in Syria did not find any poisonous substances"

Oh well, case fucking closed then.

[killer-heels]

Looks like it will be the USA and France definitely carrying out some attack. We seem to be reluctant but probably will be dragged into it. Hopefully we stay the hell away from any military response.

[killer-heels]

Cable and the Lib Dems supporting some military action. What a knob head he is.

[TepidT2O]

Cable and the Lib Dems supporting some military action. What a knob head he is.

On what grounds?

[ShakaHislop]

Theresa May 'to act on Syria without MPs' vote' - sources

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43719284

So much for "Parliamentary sovereignity"

[killer-heels]

On what grounds?

On the grounds that he wants some news headlines for himself so people dont forget who he is.

[killer-heels]

Theresa May 'to act on Syria without MPs' vote' - sources

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43719284

So much for "Parliamentary sovereignity"

Ridiculous if it comes to that. We should not be anywhere near this right now. Let the French, States and Russia be the ones to kick the war off.

[TepidT2O]

On the grounds that he wants some news headlines for himself so people dont forget who he is.

Surely as the head of the third biggest party .... he should be giving his oppinion...?

Just a thought.

[killer-heels]

Surely as the head of the third biggest party .... he should be giving his oppinion...?

Just a thought.

Fair enough. It was a crap one to be fair.

[classycarra]

Ridiculous if it comes to that. We should not be anywhere near this right now. Let the French, States and Russia be the ones to kick the war off.

This parochial attitude is exactly how we got here.

We had a chance to ground Syria's airforce several years ago, making it harder for them to mass murder their civilians. Milliband, sharing your motivation, condemned them for party political gain (having a knock on effect internationally).

Inaction and stepping back is still a choice and, equally, it has consequences

[killer-heels]

This parochial attitude is exactly how we got here.

We had a chance to ground Syria's airforce several years ago, making it harder for them to mass murder their civilians. Milliband, sharing your motivation, condemned them for party political gain (having a knock on effect internationally).

Inaction and stepping back is still a choice and, equally, it has consequences

We are talking about the possibility of attacking locations and forces that could include many Russian forces and equipment. This would result in a far more serious set of consequences than in 2013, for everybody.

One of Russia’s defence committee has said that the Kremlin is talking to the US army so there is a big chance that they are all working at ensuring people and equipment are moved about and a larger scale attack than last time comes about without casualties. But its still incredibly dangerous.