Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 383848 times)

Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3520 on: April 7, 2017, 04:26:33 pm »
Sorry, just to be clear I am not meaning to diminish the power of (and the need for) negotiations, nor suggesting the action overnight was in any way ideal.

Would seem remiss, if criticising the Labour position, not to point out the known "consequences" of Obama choosing to go down the negotiation route to achieve the same goal intended by dropping high explosive (ie "to degrade Assad's capability to use chemical weapons"). The first consequence of Trump's action was for the Russians to say they'll bolster Syria's air defence systems even further.
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Online Trada

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3521 on: April 7, 2017, 04:37:27 pm »
All seems like all for show to me.

Tell the Russians, who tell the Syrians and then launch a strike.  From the pics I have seen they destroyed a few empty hangars.

And Russia saying that only 23 of the missiles reach the air field so God know what happened to the other 36.

It will be interesting when the USA show the attack pictures or will they, if its true how little damage they did.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3522 on: April 7, 2017, 04:39:06 pm »
And Russia saying that only 23 of the missiles reach the air field so God know what happened to the other 36.

It will be interesting when the USA show the attack pictures or will they, if its true how little damage they did.
Of course we need to trust Russia's word here.... which is far from impartial...


Of course they may be correct..   could be incompetence, dodgy kit or even deliberate missing...  who knows?
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Online Trada

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3523 on: April 7, 2017, 04:47:31 pm »
Of course we need to trust Russia's word here.... which is far from impartial...


Of course they may be correct..   could be incompetence, dodgy kit or even deliberate missing...  who knows?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4C21oXoxZME" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4C21oXoxZME</a>
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3524 on: April 7, 2017, 04:47:58 pm »
Would seem remiss, if criticising the Labour position, not to point out the known "consequences" of Obama choosing to go down the negotiation route to achieve the same goal intended by dropping high explosive (ie "to degrade Assad's capability to use chemical weapons"). The first consequence of Trump's action was for the Russians to say they'll bolster Syria's air defence systems even further.

Right, but I wasn't talking about Obama's route - which was taken after the Parliamentary vote if I remember correctly (would readily concede I am not fully up to speed on this).

What I mean is, I don't remember Labour voting on the prospect of Obama and the international community negotiating away tons of chemical weapons. They appeared to be negotiating with the Government, at least in part, with an aim of securing an unprecedented party political victory in Parliament. At least, that's not how I recall it playing out at the time.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3525 on: April 7, 2017, 04:58:18 pm »
Of course we need to trust Russia's word here.... which is far from impartial...


Of course they may be correct..   could be incompetence, dodgy kit or even deliberate missing...  who knows?

Things like this reminds me of the Falklands war when the RAF bombed the main runway and said they had made it unusable and no plane can take off now.

Then suddenly Argentina released footage of a cargo plane taking off from the airport after the attack.

At the time the news programs were looking closely at footage saying it was fake and camera tricks. I remember them saying something about the smoke against the tail of the plane or something.looked fake.

But it turned out in the end they were telling the truth and the RAF had totally missed the runway.

The first thing that disappears after something like this is the truth and thats from all sides.
« Last Edit: April 7, 2017, 05:00:12 pm by Trada »
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3526 on: April 7, 2017, 05:09:25 pm »
Right, but I wasn't talking about Obama's route - which was taken after the Parliamentary vote if I remember correctly (would readily concede I am not fully up to speed on this).

What I mean is, I don't remember Labour voting on the prospect of Obama and the international community negotiating away tons of chemical weapons. They appeared to be negotiating with the Government, at least in part, with an aim of securing an unprecedented party political victory in Parliament. At least, that's not how I recall it playing out at the time.

The Parliamentary vote was on whether to launch military strikes as a first response to Assad's use of chemical weapons. Air defences (including within civilian areas), airfields, and then the task of hitting whatever sites and stockpiles were known about. As you say, attempting a multilateral discussion on getting the weapons out didn't come into it. There were also reports that the Iranian nuclear deal would also have been derailed by attacking. So, yes, negotiations to get 1000 tons of chemical weapons weren't even on the table in the Parliamentary vote.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3527 on: April 7, 2017, 07:39:38 pm »
Corbyn's statement on US military action in Syria is awful today as well. I mean genuinely awful.

I'm no fan of Corbyn but I can't see what is wrong with his statement. You might feel that the content is perhaps somewhat naive but I can't see how you can describe the underlying sentiment as "genuinely awful". If your problem is with the expression/writing then again I personally disagree. I feel that by any standards (and particularly the standards set by previous statements by Corbyn) it is expressed with a good deal of clarity, avoiding the equivocation that he so often falls into.

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3528 on: April 7, 2017, 08:22:18 pm »
Of course it's a matter of opinion but I don't see how you could justify raising all that money from private school fees and then using it to give free meals to kids who's parents could easily afford them anyway. Surely it would be much better to put the resources into schools in deprived areas where resources are tight? Reducing class sizes for example?

 What's wrong with the underlined statement? Jeremy Corbyn and his team are terrible at politics. Even if a policy is well thought out and justified, they never get it across in a way that the public really likes and end up suffering in the polls for it. As the opposition, they don't have to implement their policies, they just have to dislodge the government somehow. If this policy goes some way towards doing that (it won't) then it's fair game.

 Corbyn's statement on US military action in Syria is awful today as well. I mean genuinely awful.

The underlined statement "but if it scores some points then fair enough" - I took to be a throwaway line (in your view) which implied no commitment to it whatsoever.

I don't take kindly - especially in politics - to a) people who make those sort of statements of political intent and are lying  and b) people who think it's points-scoring and an acceptable part of the political hurly-burly - whether the statement's actually a truth or a lie. That is the cynicism I mentioned and objected to.

As for JC's condemnation of the US strike against Syria and his recommended way forward, once again we are totally and diametrically opposed in opinion.

I thought Jeremy's statement was eloquent, to the core point and totally statesmanlike in all of its content. Furthermore in terms of international law and diplomacy, it was bang on the money all day long.

THERE IS NO VERIFIED EVIDENCE yet to support Trump's macho strike against Assad (and in so doing, indirectly at Putin) has targetted the perpetrator responsible .
The ex UK Ambassador to Syria spoke very clearly on this today and in his informed view, this was likely a Jihadi set-up as only Assad / Putin stood to LOSE  once this was released to the watching world. So what could possibly be THEIR motive for having done it? Let's have some common practical sense applied here please instead of yah-sucks-boo!
« Last Edit: April 7, 2017, 08:29:59 pm by JohnnoWhite »
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3529 on: April 7, 2017, 08:50:32 pm »
Jeffrey Goldburg has an article in The Atlantic on how Trump's returning to policy responses which Obama wasn't sure were always of value.

Quote
President Obama’s foreign policy doctrine, like many foreign policy doctrines, was contradictory at times, and it sometimes lacked coherence. Obama himself resisted the desire of others (including yours truly) to corral his various foreign policy and national security impulses into a comprehensive, globe-spanning, capital-D doctrine. But Obama possessed a number of well-developed foreign policy predispositions, and he exhibited, over time and under pressure, extraordinary fidelity to some of these views. One such view held that the U.S. has traditionally paid too much attention to the Middle East, and that, in any case, even concentrated American attention could not make the region a better place—and actually, in some instances, made it worse. Another of Obama’s salient foreign policy views held that the U.S., particularly in the Middle East, had traditionally been too quick to pursue military solutions to problems that neither represented core U.S. national security interests, nor were susceptible to amelioration by missile strike.

Quote
But what is not wholly novel about Trump is that he, and his top advisers, under pressure to respond to Assad’s use of chemical weapons, reached for the same playbook that Obama resisted opening. This decision returns the U.S. to a historic norm. In other words, President Obama failed to convince Washington to put away the playbook permanently.

But now that the playbook is back off the shelf and in use, it is worth considering just why Obama was so hesitant to confront Syria, and its sponsors in Moscow and Tehran, militarily. In 2013, Obama feared, not without justification, the second- and third-order consequences of an American missile strike on the regime. Even before he became president, Obama worried greatly about slippery slopes in the Middle East. In Syria, he understood that Assad would most likely survive an American missile strike on his airbases; the day after such strikes ended, Assad, Obama believed, would have emerged from his hiding place, and declared victory: The greatest power in the world tried to destroy him, and failed. Obama was acutely aware that a one-off strike (a theoretical strike described as “unbelievably small” by his secretary of state, John Kerry), could possibly have served as a convincing brush-back pitch, but he was also aware that such a limited strike could have been wholly ineffectual, and even counterproductive. Assad and his allies, understanding that the appetite of average Americans for yet another Middle Eastern war was limited, could have tried to provoke Obama into escalation. An all-out war against the Syrian regime would have been, in many ways, Obama’s Iraq. And Obama wasn’t interested in having his own Iraq.

The curious thing is that Donald Trump is also not interested in having his own Iraq. And yet here he is. Obama was known for an overly cerebral commitment to the notion of strategic patience. Trump seems more committed to a policy of glandular, non-strategic impatience. Obama may have been paralyzed by a phobic reaction to the threat posed by the slippery slope. Donald Trump now finds himself dancing at the edge of the slippery slope his predecessor so assiduously avoided.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/04/the-obama-doctrine-rip/522276/

Syrian planes were flying, today, from the airfield attacked overnight. Other than bumping up Raytheon's share price, what did Trump accomplish? What did he set out to accomplish? What is his next step? Has he even thought through those things?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3530 on: April 7, 2017, 09:20:18 pm »
The underlined statement "but if it scores some points then fair enough" - I took to be a throwaway line (in your view) which implied no commitment to it whatsoever.

I don't take kindly - especially in politics - to a) people who make those sort of statements of political intent and are lying  and b) people who think it's points-scoring and an acceptable part of the political hurly-burly - whether the statement's actually a truth or a lie. That is the cynicism I mentioned and objected to.

As for JC's condemnation of the US strike against Syria and his recommended way forward, once again we are totally and diametrically opposed in opinion.

I thought Jeremy's statement was eloquent, to the core point and totally statesmanlike in all of its content. Furthermore in terms of international law and diplomacy, it was bang on the money all day long.

THERE IS NO VERIFIED EVIDENCE yet to support Trump's macho strike against Assad (and in so doing, indirectly at Putin) has targetted the perpetrator responsible .
The ex UK Ambassador to Syria spoke very clearly on this today and in his informed view, this was likely a Jihadi set-up as only Assad / Putin stood to LOSE  once this was released to the watching world. So what could possibly be THEIR motive for having done it? Let's have some common practical sense applied here please instead of yah-sucks-boo!

 Politics is cynical, though, Johnno. It always has been, it always will be and whether we like it or not you have to be cynical to get anywhere. Cameron and Osborne were a pair of cynical bastards, Blair and Mandelson were as cynical as it could possibly be, the current shitshow of a government is the very definition of cynicism (confused cynicism but cynicism nonetheless). If being cynical gets the Tories out and you have to lie a bit along the way then that's absolutely fine by me.

 I just wish Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne had shown some of the cynicism they show in internal disputes to the Tories from day one. And yes, before you mention it, I know the "Blairites" have been equally cynical towards Corbyn. As I say, that's just politics.

 Corbyn's statement was predictable waffle. He may as well just release the same statement every time the issue of military action by the West is raised - he's that dogmatic he'll never change his stance. Bosnia? No! Kosovo? No! Iraq? No! Afghanistan? No! Syria? No! Then the one time he gets it right (accidentally) on Iraq, he's held up as some sort of prophet.
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Offline kennedy81

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3531 on: April 7, 2017, 09:58:34 pm »
Of course we need to trust Russia's word here.... which is far from impartial...


Of course they may be correct..   could be incompetence, dodgy kit or even deliberate missing...  who knows?
Yeah, it's impossible to know much with any real certainty. Those missiles are said to have a 99% success rate and are accurate to within 1 meter.

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3532 on: April 7, 2017, 10:06:45 pm »
'You lot'? 

Politics is pragmatic because the world isn't black and white.  Often politicians are trying to pick the least bad option.  Often politicians are trying to deal with people with equally heart felt but utterly conflicting interests..

It's the way the world is, it's the way the world will always be...

It's the way it is because those that hold this tawdry view prolong the continuing con that "that is how it is".  Break the fucking mould and FFS, stop making me laugh - I've got chapped lips.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3533 on: April 7, 2017, 10:14:44 pm »


 Corbyn's statement was predictable waffle. He may as well just release the same statement every time the issue of military action by the West is raised - he's that dogmatic he'll never change his stance. Bosnia? No! Kosovo? No! Iraq? No! Afghanistan? No! Syria? No! Then the one time he gets it right (accidentally) on Iraq, he's held up as some sort of prophet.

Enlighten us...if you were the Labour leader (or at least writing their statements) what would your statement have been?

I would have included an explicit statement that Assad's position as Syria's head of state was now untenable. But I can't think of much else I'd change?
« Last Edit: April 7, 2017, 10:17:02 pm by Sammy5IsAlive »

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3534 on: April 7, 2017, 10:20:26 pm »
Enlighten us...if you were the Labour leader (or at least writing their statements) what would your statement have been?

I would have included an explicit statement that Assad's position as Syria's head of state was now untenable. But I can't think of much else I'd change?

 I'd have explicitly supported military action which reduces or eliminates completely the Assad regime's ability to use chemical weapons on babies and children.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3535 on: April 7, 2017, 10:35:56 pm »
I'd have explicitly supported military action which reduces or eliminates completely the Assad regime's ability to use chemical weapons on babies and children.

As much as I dislike Corbyn, if you think that dropping a few missiles on a single airbase is going to achieve that aim then I think he is coming across as far more credible than you are.

In military terms dealing with Assad is pretty black and white. Chucking a few missiles around will make next to no difference to him. To remove him by military means entails large scale, boots-on-ground intervention in direct opposition to Russia. I don't know about you but that seems a pretty bad plan to me.

« Last Edit: April 7, 2017, 10:46:50 pm by Sammy5IsAlive »

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3536 on: April 7, 2017, 11:30:08 pm »
As much as I dislike Corbyn, if you think that dropping a few missiles on a single airbase is going to achieve that aim then I think he is coming across as far more credible than you are.

In military terms dealing with Assad is pretty black and white. Chucking a few missiles around will make next to no difference to him. To remove him by military means entails large scale, boots-on-ground intervention in direct opposition to Russia. I don't know about you but that seems a pretty bad plan to me.

 I didn't claim it would achieve that aim. But can you tell me, yes or no, do you support military action which reduces Assad's ability to use chemical weapons on his own people? Because that's my position.

 The burden of proof ain't on the people supporting intervention. It's on those opposing it. I don't claim to know the solution but good luck to anyone arguing for the morality of standing by and watching Assad torture and gas his own people.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3537 on: April 7, 2017, 11:36:14 pm »
I didn't claim it would achieve that aim. But can you tell me, yes or no, do you support military action which reduces Assad's ability to use chemical weapons on his own people? Because that's my position.

 The burden of proof ain't on the people supporting intervention. It's on those opposing it. I don't claim to know the solution but good luck to anyone arguing for the morality of standing by and watching Assad torture and gas his own people.

So because "it's your position" do you have any response, any counter-argument to the position taken by the former UK ambassador to Syria who today categorically stated that the responsibility for the gassing being laid at Assad's door MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE that Assad and Russia were the perps? His view was that the truth was far more likely to be that the Jihadis who oppose Assad did the disgraceful deed themselves to put Assad and Russia in the frame. It stinks to high heaven above of an almighty frame-up.

Get it investigated via the UN and get to the source and let's not have anyone unilaterally firing 40, 50 or 59  Cruise missiles on the whimsical and unsubstantiated supposition that it definitely WAS Assad. That path inevitably leads to the lunacy and the absolute conflagration that WW3 would bring.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 12:08:14 am by JohnnoWhite »
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3538 on: April 7, 2017, 11:54:22 pm »
I didn't claim it would achieve that aim. But can you tell me, yes or no, do you support military action which reduces Assad's ability to use chemical weapons on his own people? Because that's my position.

 The burden of proof ain't on the people supporting intervention. It's on those opposing it. I don't claim to know the solution but good luck to anyone arguing for the morality of standing by and watching Assad torture and gas his own people.

My position is that I don't support piecemeal intervention that is only going to have a tiny short term effect on the use of chemical weapons when it has the potential to escalate what is currently a local conflict into an international conflict and potentially a Cuban Missile Crisis for the 21st century.

If we (as the UK or the 'West' in general) want to use the resources available to us to efficiently do some good in the wider world then I would suggest that we stop trying to play billy-big-bollocks with Russia in Syria and instead send some food down to South Sudan. I don't know how much a cruise missile costs but I would imagine it buys quite lot of loaves of bread/immunizations/water pumps.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/feb/20/famine-declared-in-south-sudan
 

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3539 on: April 8, 2017, 12:04:53 am »
So you have no response, no counter-argument to the position taken by the former UK ambassador to Syria who categorically stated today that the stigma of the gassing being laid at Assad's door MAKES NO SENSE and the truth is far more likely to be that the Jihadis who oppose Assad did the dirty deed? It stinks to high heaven of a frame-up. Get it investigated via the UN and get to the source and let's not go firing 40, 50 0r 59  Cruise  missiles on the whimsical suspicion that it WAS Assad. That path potentially leads to the lunacy and the absolute conflagration of WW3.

Can we have a link to that Johnno? I wasn't aware of the Jihadi forces having any access to air elements, where have these planes come from to drop the bombs? Where were they flying from?

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3540 on: April 8, 2017, 12:09:56 am »
Hear hear Sammy!! A voice of reason in the midst of madness. So LISTEN!!
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3541 on: April 8, 2017, 12:14:16 am »
Can we have a link to that Johnno? I wasn't aware of the Jihadi forces having any access to air elements, where have these planes come from to drop the bombs? Where were they flying from?

The ambassador was interviewed on tonight's channel 4 news around 6.00 pm via headphones and all that. There was no mention of any planes dropping bombs or anything in that interview Sammy. The view of the ex-ambassador was given in this link  http://tapnewswire.com/2017/04/ex-uk-ambassador-to-syria-assad-wasnt-behind-any-chemical-attack-possibly-fake-news-anyway/
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3542 on: April 8, 2017, 12:45:03 am »
The ambassador was interviewed on tonight's channel 4 news around 6.00 pm via headphones and all that. There was no mention of any planes dropping bombs or anything in that interview Sammy. The view of the ex-ambassador was given in this link  http://tapnewswire.com/2017/04/ex-uk-ambassador-to-syria-assad-wasnt-behind-any-chemical-attack-possibly-fake-news-anyway/

Thanks for that! Given his previous position you'd hope that he knows what he is talking about, although a quick google suggests that he is not an entirely unbiased observer - he has been consistently pro-Assad/anti intervention in Syria. The BBC quoted a chemical weapons expert as stating that the possibility that the casualties resulted from an airstrike on rebel chemical munitions as "pretty fanciful" (that was from a scientific rather than a political viewpoint - his opinion was that if you blew up a store of Sarin you would do just that rather than cause any chemical incident).

I guess there remain the possibility that Jihadi forces waited for an airstrike before releasing the gas in the hope of blaming Assad/Russia. But in the absence of any evidence to to contrary I would stick by the principles of Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is most likely to be true.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3543 on: April 8, 2017, 02:31:43 am »
My position is that I don't support piecemeal intervention that is only going to have a tiny short term effect on the use of chemical weapons when it has the potential to escalate what is currently a local conflict into an international conflict and potentially a Cuban Missile Crisis for the 21st century.

If we (as the UK or the 'West' in general) want to use the resources available to us to efficiently do some good in the wider world then I would suggest that we stop trying to play billy-big-bollocks with Russia in Syria and instead send some food down to South Sudan. I don't know how much a cruise missile costs but I would imagine it buys quite lot of loaves of bread/immunizations/water pumps.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/feb/20/famine-declared-in-south-sudan

The world system is anarchic. There are very few norms which are considered sacred by almost every global actor but the use (or non-use) of chemical weapons is one of them. Given the suffering that already goes on without the use of Sarin and other poisons, I'd say that's a pretty good thing overall.

 Do we know where Trump's intervention will lead? No. Do we know if this was a one-off or part of something wider? No. Are there troubling potential outcomes from this? Yes, undoubtedly. Does any of this justify standing by whilst Assad gasses his own people? No. Not for me. When we say we'll watch you gas the fuck out of children and babies and then release some nonsense statements about political solutions, we haven't got a leg to stand on.

 And as an aside, if you're peddling the shite about Assad having "no motivation" to gas his own people you are firmly on the side of Katie Hopkins and Alex Jones. No serious outlets are pushing the idea that this was anything other than the regime stamping on the throats of its own people. The far left (yes, Johnno, you) and far right are chillingly similar when it comes to these issues.

 Edit: to be clear, I am not applauding Donald Drumpf here. He could get everything right for the next eight years and I still wouldn't praise him, such are his crimes prior to this. And no, I haven't got a clue what his motives are. But if the West stood idly by whilst Assad used chemical weapons (again!) we would have lost something. Something big.

 Anyway, this is off topic. Apologies.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 05:16:09 am by TravisBickle »
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3544 on: April 8, 2017, 04:36:42 am »
The ambassador was interviewed on tonight's channel 4 news around 6.00 pm via headphones and all that. There was no mention of any planes dropping bombs or anything in that interview Sammy. The view of the ex-ambassador was given in this link  http://tapnewswire.com/2017/04/ex-uk-ambassador-to-syria-assad-wasnt-behind-any-chemical-attack-possibly-fake-news-anyway/

Other reports on that site:

Six Jewish Companies Control 96% of the World’s Media viewed recently: 9618

Shrimpton “Westminster Bridge Attack Was Allowed To Happen By British Intelligence.” viewed recently: 3954

666: Microchips for Everybody instead of Money Coming viewed recently: 2320

Why did Tony Blair and Gordon Brown rush MI5 to Portugal to 'help' the McCanns, and why were they demanding all photographs from everyone there? viewed recently: 1746

Rothschilds Caught Orchestrating US Election Outcome – Trump, Like Clinton, Is A Rothschild Puppet viewed recently: 1670

The ex-Ambassador may or may not have some inside information but I have to say that the fact that it's posted on a rabidly anti-semitic conspiracy website colours my view on it.

What on earth are you doing reading that shite?

*edit - wow! It's a pretty much conspiracy theory full house: chemtrails, flouride, smart meters controlling your home... I had to search but they have anti-vaccination (including vaccination by chemtrails), UFO stories and possibly the top story on the site:

CONFIRMED: ANTI-GERMAN PARASITE ANGELA MERKEL IS A JEW! viewed recently: 1587 with a picture of Donald Drumpf and a load of Nazi flags.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 04:49:19 am by Alan_X »
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3545 on: April 8, 2017, 05:01:03 am »
I have sympathy for Corbyn's position. Unless you're the IRA or Hezbollah or whatever, he thinks violence is a bad thing so understandably he wants to try and go through the UN even if he must know (maybe he doesn't) that the Russians have spent the past few years vetoing almost everything which would have a meaningful impact upon Assad.

There is a point buried deep in what Corbyn is saying. And that's what the most effective way is to end Assad's war crimes? Realistically, it means an allied force being prepared to invade Syria. Which is the solution absolutely no-one is willing to risk. So lobbing a few cruise missiles to no great effect but lots of media coverage does seem to have lots of potential downsides and few upsides - if one discounts the willy waving brigade jumping on board the Trump train for a bit.

My view is the same as it was last time round. Make the case to intervene in a meaningful way (and with a view to the long term consequences and commitment needed to do that) but please don't pretend that the one thing Syria is really missing is even more high explosive being dropped from above.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3546 on: April 8, 2017, 06:48:42 am »
Is there proof that Asaad was responsible for the chemical weapons attack?

I just can't fathem the logic of him risking him so much, when he has practically won. He's a horrible human being, but by all accounts he is no idiot either, so what would he get from carrying out such an attack, with little positives?

Seems to be a white wash by the media, other than soundbites saying he did it. But i'd just like to see the evidence to make my own mind up.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3547 on: April 8, 2017, 06:59:05 am »
<snip>

Just in relation to this post. The source of the link doesn't mean that the ex-ambassador doesn't have a some insight but he's one voice among many and he's an ex-diplomat, not a military expert. Linking to that site as the source points to either the acceptance of a particular conspiracy world view, or at best a lack of concern over the agenda that underpins those sources.

It's all very well to question the 'Mainstream Media' but at least there is some control over them. I don't know how or why anyone would ever end up linking to a site that believes in UFOs, that has stories by people claiming that the Westminster attack was controlled by the Germans, stories promoting Jewish World government stories, and expect anyone to take them seriously.

Keep an open mind on whether the gas attack was exactly what it's claimed to be, but a biased source posted on a nut-job website doesn't help the discussion in any way.

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3548 on: April 8, 2017, 07:26:20 am »
Is there proof that Asaad was responsible for the chemical weapons attack?

I just can't fathem the logic of him risking him so much, when he has practically won. He's a horrible human being, but by all accounts he is no idiot either, so what would he get from carrying out such an attack, with little positives?

Seems to be a white wash by the media, other than soundbites saying he did it. But i'd just like to see the evidence to make my own mind up.

What is the logic? You tell me. Why would Assad imprison, torture and murder Syrians? A more relevant question might be why would anyone doubt that a murdering bastard like Assad has used chemical weapons against his enemies?

From Al Jazeera:

UN blames Syria forces for third chemical attack

UN investigators say Syrian forces were behind a chemical weapons attack on civilians in Idlib province in March 2015.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/blames-syria-forces-chemical-attack-161022033828052.html

From Human Rights Watch:

Targeting Civilians, Indiscriminate Attacks, Use of Incendiary Weapons, Cluster Munitions, and Chemical Weapons

More than 117,000 have been detained or disappeared since 2011, the vast majority by government forces, including 4,557 between January and June 2016, according to the Syrian Network for Human Rights. Torture and ill-treatment are rampant in detention facilities; thousands have died in detention.

The Islamic State (also known as ISIS), and the former Al-Qaeda affiliate in Syria, Jabhat al-Nusra, which changed its name to Jabhat Fath al-Sham, were responsible for systematic and widespread violations, including targeting civilians with artillery, kidnappings, and executions. Non-state armed groups opposing the government also carried out serious abuses including indiscriminate attacks against civilians, using child soldiers, kidnapping, unlawfully blocking humanitarian aid, and torture.

In its fourth report, released this year, the Joint Investigative Mechanism between the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) and the UN concluded that Syrian government forces used chemicals in an attack in Idlib in March 2015. The inquiry also identified the military units responsible for flights connected to the attacks but could not name the commanders of the units due to the Syrian government’s failure to respond to crucial queries. In an earlier report, the joint inquiry had reached the same conclusion for two other attacks, in 2014 and 2015. The inquiry also previously found that ISIS had used sulfur mustard gas in an attack on areas held by armed opposition groups in August 2015.

<snip>

The number of civilian deaths from airstrikes and artillery decreased slightly following internationally brokered ceasefires in February and September, but only briefly, and unlawful attacks on civilians by all parties to the conflict persisted throughout the year. Syrian and Russian airstrikes continued to target, or indiscriminately strike civilian areas, including homes, markets, schools, and hospitals, using wide-area explosives, barrel bombs, cluster munitions, and flammable incendiary weapons.

In 2016, Human Rights Watch documented several attacks on homes, medical facilities, markets, and schools that appeared to be targeted, including a major airstrike by the Syrian-Russian coalition that hit al-Quds Hospital and surrounding areas on April 27, 2016, killing 58 civilians and patients. In August alone, there were several attacks on health facilities including in Idlib, Aleppo, Hama, and Homs.

Government forces used at least 13 types of internationally banned cluster munitions in over 400 attacks on opposition-held areas between July 2012 to August 2016, killing and injuring civilians, including children. The Syrian-Russian joint military operations, which began on September 30, 2015, have also extensively used internationally banned cluster munitions. Cluster munitions have been outlawed by most countries since their submunitions fall over a wide area, failing to distinguish between fighters and civilians and because many submunitions fail to explode and become de facto land mines that can explode, if disturbed, even after many years if they are not cleared.

Government forces, and their allies, also increasingly resorted to the use of incendiary weapons, with at least 18 documented attacks on opposition-held areas in Aleppo and Idlib between June 5 and August 10. In June, Russia Today broadcasted footage of incendiary weapons—specifically RBK-500 ZAB-2.5SM bombs—being mounted on a Russian Su-34 fighter-ground attack aircraft at a Syrian airbase. Incendiary weapons induce a chain of chemical reactions that ignite fires which are hard to extinguish and cause excruciatingly painful burns that are difficult to treat. A total of 113 countries including Russia (but not Syria) have ratified the Convention on Conventional Weapons protocol prohibiting the use of air-delivered incendiary weapons in areas with a "concentration of civilians."

While Russia continues to deny its involvement in incendiary weapons attacks in Syria, Syria has persistently ignored calls to sign the protocol and its military forces’ use of incendiary weapons has been documented since the end of 2012.

Government forces also continued using toxic chemicals in several barrel bomb attacks in violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention. Syrian government helicopters dropped barrel bombs with toxic chemicals on residential neighborhoods in opposition-controlled parts of Aleppo city on August 10 and September 6.

In a report issued on August 24, 2016, a UN-appointed investigation attributed two chemical weapon attacks earlier in 2016 to the Syrian government and one to ISIS, which is already under UN sanctions.


https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/syria#4be392

ISIS has used mustard gas which can be manufactured relatively easily and released at ground level (as in the First World War) but the latest attack appears to be Sarin delivered from the air.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3549 on: April 8, 2017, 07:33:58 am »
.
Is there proof that Asaad was responsible for the chemical weapons attack?

I just can't fathem the logic of him risking him so much, when he has practically won. He's a horrible human being, but by all accounts he is no idiot either, so what would he get from carrying out such an attack, with little positives?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/07/syria-nerve-agent-attack-why-it-made-sense-to-assad

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3550 on: April 8, 2017, 07:40:33 am »
.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/07/syria-nerve-agent-attack-why-it-made-sense-to-assad

The last two paragraphs are interesting:

“I am reading now that this strike is to make Assad not use chemical weapons any more,” said activist Abdulkafi al Hamdo.

The message from that, he said, was that the government could “go ahead with using barrel bombs, vacuum rockets, cluster bombs, phosphorus weapons and any kind, just not chemical weapons”.


It's possible Assad chanced his arm to see how far he could go. Killing 70 civilians is neither here nor there for Assad and if it had met no response from the US he could have stepped up the Sarin attacks. Now he knows he's limited to barrel bombs, incendiaries and cluster bombs when he's attacking his own people.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3551 on: April 8, 2017, 07:58:07 am »
What should not be forgotten in the midst of this is the US and their continued use of white phosphorus. A war crime in of itself.

Let's be honest - the entire world is fucked.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3552 on: April 8, 2017, 08:53:08 am »
Let's be honest - the entire world is fucked.

My dad is into his politics and history and his mantra of 'there are no good guys here' always rings true.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3553 on: April 8, 2017, 09:18:33 am »


What on earth are you doing reading that shite?

*edit - wow! It's a pretty much conspiracy theory full house: chemtrails, flouride, smart meters controlling your home... I had to search but they have anti-vaccination (including vaccination by chemtrails), UFO stories and possibly the top story on the site:

CONFIRMED: ANTI-GERMAN PARASITE ANGELA MERKEL IS A JEW! viewed recently: 1587 with a picture of Donald Drumpf and a load of Nazi flags.


The Merkel headline was my particular favourite!!

Any decent, sane person doesn't read crap like that.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 09:20:42 am by Red-Soldier »

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3554 on: April 8, 2017, 09:52:50 am »
The world system is anarchic. There are very few norms which are considered sacred by almost every global actor but the use (or non-use) of chemical weapons is one of them. Given the suffering that already goes on without the use of Sarin and other poisons, I'd say that's a pretty good thing overall.

 Do we know where Trump's intervention will lead? No. Do we know if this was a one-off or part of something wider? No. Are there troubling potential outcomes from this? Yes, undoubtedly. Does any of this justify standing by whilst Assad gasses his own people? No. Not for me. When we say we'll watch you gas the fuck out of children and babies and then release some nonsense statements about political solutions, we haven't got a leg to stand on.

 And as an aside, if you're peddling the shite about Assad having "no motivation" to gas his own people you are firmly on the side of Katie Hopkins and Alex Jones. No serious outlets are pushing the idea that this was anything other than the regime stamping on the throats of its own people. The far left (yes, Johnno, you) and far right are chillingly similar when it comes to these issues.

 Edit: to be clear, I am not applauding Donald Drumpf here. He could get everything right for the next eight years and I still wouldn't praise him, such are his crimes prior to this. And no, I haven't got a clue what his motives are. But if the West stood idly by whilst Assad used chemical weapons (again!) we would have lost something. Something big.

 Anyway, this is off topic. Apologies.

The "far left" is me is it? Wow. Just fucking wow.

The furthest "left" activity I have ever been guilty of is proudly singing the Red Flag in Tory Macclesfield Town Hall counting room back in 1978 following my failed attempt to turn around a Tory majority of over 1000 in the district ward in which I lived. I failed by some 70 votes to get elected as a Labour candidate to that same council which consisted of 60 seats - Tories held 52, Libs 4 and Labour 4.

So the next evening, I visited my local on our estate where I found a number of my promised voters and acquaintances who sadly weren't able to make it out of the pub on the previous evening. They started to "congratulate" me for "nearly overturning that Tory bastard last night." 

I said "Don't be offering anything approaching congratulations when we didn't win. I said to you at the start I would stand for this ward where we all live and that I would give it my best if you would give me and the Labour Party your vote to win a voice on that council. I know I kept my part of the bargain but wish I could say the same for the 20 or 30 of you who anchored yer arses in this vault last night."
End of history and political credentials lesson.

If that is "revolutionary Trotskyite behaviour" in your opinion Mr Bickle, then I'll show my arse in a tripe shop window.If your view and your conclusions represent the voice of reason and centre politics in this unfolding tragedy, then I will bin my existing copy of the Oxford dictionary. Clearly, you and those who share your political persuasion have re-written a version of English with which I am not familiar.
Your assertions of Assad's guilt - and by association Putin's - based on zero, nada, zilch evidence I find alarmingly incredulous. Such a stance is a threat to the peace of our world and to me and to mine and I find that disgracefully irresponsible.

Worse even than that, it's indicative of a growing mind-set within centrist/centre-right opinion  who it appears are increasingly prepared to consign the due process of a United Nations-led critical investigation of alleged war crimes to the dustbin in order to plant their flag and their political views firmly upon the anti-Corbyn high ground. In so doing, you have lost your moral compass. 

Just throw me the old number 11 shirt and I'll be content to continue to operate in left midfield. 
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 07:57:05 pm by JohnnoWhite »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3555 on: April 8, 2017, 11:47:12 am »
Other reports on that site:

Six Jewish Companies Control 96% of the World’s Media viewed recently: 9618

Shrimpton “Westminster Bridge Attack Was Allowed To Happen By British Intelligence.” viewed recently: 3954

666: Microchips for Everybody instead of Money Coming viewed recently: 2320

Why did Tony Blair and Gordon Brown rush MI5 to Portugal to 'help' the McCanns, and why were they demanding all photographs from everyone there? viewed recently: 1746

Rothschilds Caught Orchestrating US Election Outcome – Trump, Like Clinton, Is A Rothschild Puppet viewed recently: 1670

The ex-Ambassador may or may not have some inside information but I have to say that the fact that it's posted on a rabidly anti-semitic conspiracy website colours my view on it.

What on earth are you doing reading that shite?

*edit - wow! It's a pretty much conspiracy theory full house: chemtrails, flouride, smart meters controlling your home... I had to search but they have anti-vaccination (including vaccination by chemtrails), UFO stories and possibly the top story on the site:

CONFIRMED: ANTI-GERMAN PARASITE ANGELA MERKEL IS A JEW! viewed recently: 1587 with a picture of Donald Drumpf and a load of Nazi flags.

I have never followed that link. I watched the ex-ambassador Peter Ford's interview on Channel 4 news, heard his comments and that was the end of that. When Sammy asked for a link, I googled and several links came up. I know nothing of the history of that site only that it carried the words of Peter Ford. Were I the anti-Christ some on here are attempting to tag me as, d'yer think I wouldn't possess the smart-arsed nouse to know the lack of credibility pedigree that particularly you, Alan, assigned to that link and by inference to me?  Behave yourself please.

I copied the first link that came up last night to answer Sammy's request. Then this morning you and 7th cavalry rode in to have a piss-take field day. Well congratulations Alan - enjoy your moment in the sun. I think that's indicative of your particular political chagrin and which indeed, may well be votre plus forte raison d’être ici. Au revoir.

PS Notez camerades, que ce n’est pas adieu!

PPS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU5taO5vRDo&app=desktop The same ex-ambassador interviewed on the beeb's morning show.
Is this link sufficiently credible for you?

He says nothing at all different than he did on the other "questionable" forum by the way. In fact he speaks with more damning eloquence in this programme than I actually recall him having done on the one you found so hilarious. 
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 05:16:18 pm by JohnnoWhite »
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3556 on: April 8, 2017, 05:54:40 pm »
I have never followed that link. I watched the ex-ambassador Peter Ford's interview on Channel 4 news, heard his comments and that was the end of that. When Sammy asked for a link, I googled and several links came up. I know nothing of the history of that site only that it carried the words of Peter Ford. Were I the anti-Christ some on here are attempting to tag me as, d'yer think I wouldn't possess the smart-arsed nouse to know the lack of credibility pedigree that particularly you, Alan, assigned to that link and by inference to me?  Behave yourself please.

I copied the first link that came up last night to answer Sammy's request. Then this morning you and 7th cavalry rode in to have a piss-take field day. Well congratulations Alan - enjoy your moment in the sun. I think that's indicative of your particular political chagrin and which indeed, may well be votre plus forte raison d’être ici. Au revoir.

PS Notez camerades, que ce n’est pas adieu!

PPS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU5taO5vRDo&app=desktop The same ex-ambassador interviewed on the beeb's morning show.
Is this link sufficiently credible for you?

He says nothing at all different than he did on the other "questionable" forum by the way. In fact he speaks with more damning eloquence in this programme than I actually recall him having done on the one you found so hilarious. 

Wind your neck in Johnno. Plenty of others have been banned for posting links to shite half as bad as that. I made my point in my second post about the validity or otherwise of the ex-ambassador's comments. I don't disagree with the ex-ambassadors opinion because of the source, I question it because all the evidence we have is that it was air-delivered Sarin, not mustard gas.

You're a good man Johnno and you get a lot of goodwill on here for good reason. It really saddens me that your admiration of Corbyn means we'll never see eye-to-eye on the issue but there you go. We're both grown ups.

But don't ever post links to despicable anti-Semitic websites like that again. If you don't have time to check the site it can wait until you do.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 05:58:50 pm by Alan_X »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3557 on: April 8, 2017, 08:49:27 pm »
Wind your neck in Johnno. Plenty of others have been banned for posting links to shite half as bad as that. I made my point in my second post about the validity or otherwise of the ex-ambassador's comments. I don't disagree with the ex-ambassadors opinion because of the source, I question it because all the evidence we have is that it was air-delivered Sarin, not mustard gas.

You're a good man Johnno and you get a lot of goodwill on here for good reason. It really saddens me that your admiration of Corbyn means we'll never see eye-to-eye on the issue but there you go. We're both grown ups.

But don't ever post links to despicable anti-Semitic websites like that again. If you don't have time to check the site it can wait until you do.

See the underlined - I do offer my apologies for not checking out that place. Let me assure you there's not an anti-Semitic bone in my body. Anti-Israeli and that government's current policies ? For sure I plead guilty and will remain that way until an administration returns to that land that recognises it MUST administer justice, humanitarianism and political obligations towards its non-Jewish citizens. If it cannot do that in this fucking awful mixed-up world  then it cannot expect to survive.
Its tragedy was laid bare to me when I met two Israeli citizens whilst working in Romania. Boyhood friends they were - and still are. But one was Jewish and the other one Palestinian. Neither of them were religious which is neither here nor there. But religion and politics had Ulster-style stigmatised and was seeking further to divide both. Awful that two lifelong friends had to work away from home because of the bitterness in THEIR homeland.

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See bold above - this is where I have this massive and fundamental problem with your words repeated once again. On what basis do you make this evidence claim?? There's been no investigation performed, no inspection, no evidence gathered or offered to the international community other than assumptions/assertions - peddled for strategic and political manoeuvring still as yet undisclosed to both the British AND the American people - and it is extremely scary and it's certainly apparent there are agenda. Sick to death of this posturing and this misinformation.

Once again, the mass of the people of this planet aren't important enough to be considered as needing to know yet we all of us may be devastatingly impacted by decisions taken in camera. It is an insult to us all. I have to find a way to deal with this other than to be increasingly angry at the powers that control us all.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3558 on: April 8, 2017, 10:17:12 pm »
I'm not going to engage with you if you act as an Assad apologist, which is exactly what you are doing. The burden of proof is not on those of us (including 99% of credible sources) who say Assad was behind it, it lies on you. If the Jihadis or other opposition forces did it and its one great big anti-Assad stitchup, tell me when the opposition acquired air power? Genuinely. Please tell me.

My initial reaction was this: You are one extremely offensive  person - and probably unaware how offensive. NEVER call me an apologist for ANYONE! You got that? I will not delete this because you owe me some proof of culpability. Even that piece of shit Assad is deserving of PROOF of guilt!

The burden of proof as you claim lies upon those who ALLEGE much yet offer Jack shit in evidence - and a little less sanctimonious shite and a teeny bit of persuasive evidence could go a long way.

I ask you when has it been established beyond ANY possible doubt that AIR POWER was involved or are you totally locked into your words of condemnation that proof is no longer relevant for you? Substantiate that please because I have seen NOT A THING that proves air power was involved. Offer that proof and I assure you I WILL unreservedly apologise - as I trust so would you.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 10:30:52 pm by JohnnoWhite »
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #3559 on: April 8, 2017, 10:30:30 pm »
You are one extremely offensive  person - and probably unaware how offensive. NEVER call me an apologist for ANYONE! You got that?

The burden of proof lies upon those who ALLEGE much yet offer Jack shit in evidence - a little less sanctimonious shite and a teeny bit of persuasive evidence could go a long way.

When has it been established beyond ANY possible doubt that AIR POWER was involved or are you totally locked into your words of condemnation? Substantiate that please because I have seen NOT A THING that proves air power was involved. Over to you.

Even the Russians and Syrians are saying they were bombing the place at the time. I'd say that's pretty conclusive without having to need the Pentagon, the Israelis or the Turks provide radar tracks of the bombing runs. You've been banging on about common sense. Use some.
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