Topic: Liverpool 0 - Real Madrid 3 FT

[Chakan]

Surely that's down to coaching then? Getting everyone to defend as a unit is something that's done on the training field, not by buying a new player or two...

For example, Ronald Koeman was was quite right in saying on Sky yesterday that winning starts with being solid defensively, and spoke about how he would always dedicate one day of training per week to training the defensive systems, or "units", whereby he splits the defenders and midfielders up to coordinate their movements as units of 4. Either the players are completely ignoring what they've been training during the week, or the coaching staff aren't doing their job right. I don't know which it is but I'm starting to think its the latter.

Well in 3 years we're still a shambles. We've had what 6 different CB's now? So i'd say it's down to the coaching.

[oojason]

Somethings got to give.... All the CB's Brendan has recycled in his 3 year tenure can't have ALL been individually poor... its mind boggling how no matter who plays CB in our system they all end up looking terrible.... Agger, Coates, Carragher, Skrtel, Toure, Sakho, Lovren, ... where does it end?!

Those are all fine CB's, so its becoming very clear that the defensive issues are systematic and not only individual. When was the last time the back 4 stepped up in unison to play someone offside for example? Man City are amazing at doing that but we seem totally incapable of it for some reason.

Something is clearly wrong back there - as great as the 1st goal was tonight (a truly exquisite lobbed pass for a 1-2 for Ronaldo to get onto the end of) - watch Lovren - for some reason he runs out of the defencive line for no reason when there is already Moreno and another Red in front of him close to James, leaving a large space for anyone to run into between him and the goalie.

It's a great goal - but poor decision making from Lovren to position himself there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCp_eIAnt74 (pause it on 1 second into the vid)

[Twelfth Man]

I'm sorry but that's utter bull. We don't have the luxury of having Ronaldo, Isco, Benzema , Rodriguez in the team.

Might as well just take Lovern and Skrtel off then seriously. If he's not going to fix the defense the whats the fucking point of having them on the pitch?

Twelfth, some of us would agree with that, but where exactly do we draw the line on the system vs. individual fault?

When opponents are strolling through our midfield because we are set up to be so attacking is one thing, but when our defenders and midfielders have an inability to even mark or defend long balls and crosses, something has to give. I find it a bit of a conundrum!

Chakan last year we had an attack to match them, despite the relatively weaker midfield.
Reese, I agree to a certain extent, individual mistakes in defence is costing us, but I can't help thinking that having a tad more solidity in-front of the defence would help turn these error strewn displays into something we see with the same individuals at international level, where they look dominant, Sakho being the main example.

[rickardinho1]

i believe Brendan found his level today. he knew what Real can do, there was no change in tactics, formation and got a hiding. even after 3 yrs of management, we are unable to sort out our defence, even after spending a fortune on that then basically there is something very wrong. for people saying we were good in the 2nd half, it was because Real took the foot of the gas pedal, you know there is a classico round the corner.

I thought the formation and tactics were absolutely fine. Johnson and Henderson had clearly worked on doubling-up on Ronaldo together, forcing Ronaldo to go to the right wing after a while where Moreno and Allen repelled him, before he finally tried his luck down the middle for the goal, for which there's only so much you can do against a player like him.

After the 1-0 goal Real hand the upper hand and with players like Kroos and Modric who can play keep-ball for 90 minutes between themselves it was always going to be tough.

The only real issue is how we defend set-pieces and crosses, mainly the 2nd phases. The 2nd phase is how QPR scored their 1st goal, and exactly how Real scored their 2nd today, and is clearly a problem that needs a lot of work.

[Romford_Red]

i believe Brendan found his level today. he knew what Real can do, there was no change in tactics, formation and got a hiding.

Is this the same Brendan who was lauded just last season for being able to chop and change his tactics and formations seemingly at will, to blow opponents away?

You've got a very short memory.

[Lady_brandybuck]

Feel very sorry for Rodgers for all the criticism he's getting from deluded fans.
Liverpool were a team that for many years had finished consistently around 7th place before he took over.

Rodgers takes them to second, using youngsters and improving players along the way and playing some of the most exciting football we've seen for decades.
Now he's being criticized by people because we've been beaten by the best team in the world.

Sure, we need to improve. The defence is a worry and we're missing some great strikers. But he's only falling short of the high standards that he set himself.

I think we need to show a lot more patience and understand that fixing the problems is a work in progress and therefore will take a bit of time.

Sorry but the bit in black is just pure stupidity or you just woke up of a comma

[rickardinho1]

Something is clearly wrong back there - as great as the 1st goal was tonight (a truly exquisite lobbed pass for a 1-2 for Ronaldo to get onto the end of) - watch Lovren - for some reason he runs out of the defencive line for no reason when there is already Moreno and another Red in front of him close to James, leaving a large space for anyone to run into between him and the goalie.

It's a great goal - but poor decision making from Lovren to position himself there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCp_eIAnt74 (pause it on 1 second into the vid)

Yeah I noticed that too, even though its a little harsh to blame him alone.

[rickardinho1]

Sorry but the bit in black is just pure stupidity or you just woke up of a comma

You must have been in a coma from 2010-2013 when the team finished 7th, 7th, 8th, or something along those lines....

[BUSHMILLS]

Your arse? No thanks. What I'm saying is that this guy took over the management of our club with absolutely no credentials to warrant the appointment.  He presented a 180 page dossier to persuade FSG that he was the man for the job. I'm simply asking if a humiliation by Real Madrid, who Rafa had destroyed, was something he anticipated 50 months into his tenure? Of course not. So things have gone wrong. Bad signings, ridgid tactics and a 'philosophy' that has simply not been seen during his tenure. Rodgers might be our saviour,  but watching us this season suggests he isn't.

Piss off.

Would you have said the same of Shankly after our 'humiliation' at the hands of Ajax or Red Star?

He's relatively inexperienced at the top level. He's made mistakes. We're having a stuttering start to the season. We've just been hammered.

On the other hand, he's got us back into the CL. We've lost one of the world's best players. Our star striker is out injured. And that team who hammered us? They're the best in the world right now.

I'm no "sunshiner" but your thinly disguised 'Rodgers-isn't-man-for-us' posts are really shit. Jeez, we were laughing at the Bitters for calling for Bobby's head last week (before they recorded that momentous, DVD-inducing home win against Villa).
 
By the way, if he really did provide FSG with an 180-page dossier, then good. I'm sure Rafa (not exactly a 'back-of-a-fag-packet' man) would have approved.

[B0151?]

He presented a 180 page dossier to persuade FSG that he was the man for the job. I'm simply asking if a humiliation by Real Madrid, who Rafa had destroyed, was something he anticipated 50 months into his tenure? Of course not. So things have gone wrong. Bad signings, ridgid tactics and a 'philosophy' that has simply not been seen during his tenure. Rodgers might be our saviour,  but watching us this season suggests he isn't.

1. What does a dossier have to do with anything?
2. What does Rafa winning a match 5 years ago have to do with anything?
3. 50 months?
4. It's bloody October. You posted this last season "He has done wonders with the resources he has and his comparatively limited managerial experience.  I was not ecstatic when he joined us, I am now, this guy is going to improve us until we are not simply aiming for top four, but expecting to win the league and frightening better sides than Chelsea. Looking forward to the last two games and the next seaon with great anticipation. "

You've been supporting this club for a long time, I really can't understand why 2 months of a new season has made you so negative and disrespectful of a guy you were ecstatic about a few months ago. Have a little faith eh?

[Ken-Obi]

Best team won.

So much wrong with this shite. Where to begin?

It began when we finished with 2 points of the champions last season. We're expected to be trashing Real 5 - 0 this season.

[thelinnen]

We got bummed by the best team in Europe. Thanks Ancelotti for taking off Ronaldo before it could get any worse, although I think that's because he had an eye on the derby. If we don't kick off next season with a new pacy striker and two commanding centre backs then we haven't made any progress. Take top 4 and a cup and run this season.

[Chakan]

Chakan last year we had an attack to match them, despite the relatively weaker midfield.

Yes we did and it took almost 2 years for that to come good. We don't have anywhere near that attack this year. Specially with Sturridge being made of glass. We're not going to be scoring 3/4/5 goals a game. Hell we're struggling to score 1. If we had actually worked on the defense and got it functioning as a unit we might be in a better position this year. As it is we're up shit creek without a defense.

[Samie]

Piss off.

Would you have said the same of Shankly after our 'humiliation' at the hands of Ajax or Red Star?

He's relatively inexperienced at the top level. He's made mistakes. We're having a stuttering start to the season. We've just been hammered.

On the other hand, he's got us back into the CL. We've lost one of the world's best players. Our star striker is out injured. And that team who hammered us? They're the best in the world right now.

I'm no "sunshiner" but your thinly disguised 'Rodgers-isn't-man-for-us' posts are really shit. Jeez, we were laughing at the Bitters for calling for Bobby's head last week (before they recorded that momentous, DVD-inducing home win against Villa).
 
By the way, if he really did provide FSG with an 180-page dossier, then good. I'm sure Rafa (not exactly a 'back-of-a-fag-packet' man) would have approved.

great post mate bit in  black had me bursting out laughing like a loon. 

Rafa ala Mike Bassett.

[Wernerred]

  We looked great for the first 15 minutes  Gutted

[Ken-Obi]

What's with Ancelotti and coaching awesome teams?

[Lady_brandybuck]

You must have been in a coma from 2010-2013 when the team finished 7th, 7th, 8th, or something along those lines....

6-8-7. only in three seasons in more than 15 seasons at least. That's not consistency.

[ReeNah]

I think we're very lucky to have played that game this early in the tournament. I think BR will take a lot from that match, learn and be better for it for the rest of the tournament. Good to see the likes of Sterling and Lallana really try to take it to the opposition. Basel lost which means we're still in with a great shout to make the next stage.

[ThePoolMan]

Of course we do not have the individual quality Real has but we have beaten better teams on paper before but not better on the field. In Istanbul we had a weaker team but we beat a better team in AC Milan when we were 0-3 down.

The problem is that we do not play like a team anymore - and the players themselves know this. Even before the game, the team did not believe they could beat Real  - and this was seen from the words of Gerrard during his press conference where he said that we were underdogs in our own stadium. We lost the game before we even played it.

The difference with Istanbul was not just that we had a Gerrard who was at the height of his powers but also that we had a far more experienced manager at the top level of European competition in Benitez who knew how not only to beat the top teams but to win cups. The players believed in Benitez's ability to turn things around and his tactical acumen helped us turn the tide.

There is a silver lining to this in that Rodgers is still learning to be a top manager. This was one of the weaknesses of hiring a young and less experienced manager like him but on the other hand if he finds a way to learn from this and get better and fashion a new way of playing that will be able to engender the same belief from his players and that can cause us to play as a team uin attack and defence again, this could be the same turning point for us that the game was for us after the Red Star Belgrade match which caused us to change our approach and which truly launched Liverpool towards European domination.

If that involves the need for him to eat humble pie and bring in better coaches who can help create better organisation in the team, then that pill has to be swallowed because we were humbled yesterday in Anfield by as team that was far better than us and that we had no serious challenge to, and that is simply unacceptable.

[alvaro]

Well considering Basle lost then its good news because beating Ludogorets and Basel by two goals guarantees we are through without any concern on the rest of the games.
Anyway I think today showed that we are very far from competing with europe elite, its not getting worse than this.

That being said the question should be, what is the plan for the return game at Madrid? We have to play there in 13 days and losing 3-0 again shouldnt be the expectation.  Im thinking at being more defensive oriented putting players in the middle because we are just not outscoring them if we open the game. Maybe the option is playing with Lallana, Sterling and Coutinho up front with no striker like we did today in the second half. We need to keep the game close for as long as possible because we have enough talent in our midfield to create problems for the defence. A draw against Real would be a really positive result and its not like Madrid will go gung-ho for the win if the game is tied in the second half. 

Onwards and upwards, there is still everything to play for. If we manage to qualify then Sturridge plus hopefully a new signing will give the team much better chances to compete with the best.

[thelinnen]

[creed111]

Have to preface this by saying we lost to the best, tied for the best, team in the world. A team that had scored 32 goals in 7 games coming in to today. As a fan of the sport, I can watch that midfield trio of Isco, Kroos and Modric dove-tail off each other all day. Relentless team, and this was without Ramos and Bale. Varane was outstanding and is outstanding, so quick across the ground. If Ilori can become half that good, we'll have a talented CB.


I can say a lot, both of the goods and the bads, but I just want to say one thing. Yes their first was so exquistely classy that I want to buy an iPad and have a loop of that goal framed on a wall. But Gerrard again is so easily ghosted by its saddening. Clyne for S'hampton is a quick example of how poor we are at tracking runners. It's mainly his decision making, far too often he "stabs" in on the ball for the tackle. Missing it. Thus perpetuating the 1-2. Ronaldo's obviously brilliant enough to see a 1-2 on his own. But the way Gerrard dives in to win a tackle literally makes the 1-2 the clearest option for a player. Even average players do it because it's so open. That is what stings the most from this game. The set piece goals are a disgrace but we've all talked about our deficiencies defensively on aerially balls enough. We rarely talk about how glorious our team would operate if we had a Matic type, technical ball-winner at the base. Gerrard is my idol, don't get me wrong, he should still play. But he misses on sooo many of the nuances of the position

Oh and Remy sure would have been nice to have...

[Bobinhood]

oh yeah, well....Wait till last year!

[istvan kozma]

The worrying thing for me wasn't that Madrid have my quality than us, it was that their industry and intensity was also better over the 90mins. Look at Isco's performance with and without the ball and compare how we defended set pieces to how they did, thing's like that we had to be better than them if we had any chance of getting anything out of the game.

[NealFrom25Yards]

Markovic has bags of potential.

Unfortunately, they're these ones.



 

[ThePoolMan]

My take:

- We're clearly lacking a striker who runs deep, plain and simple. Blame Balotelli if you want, but he just isn't that profile of player, and I think he'll improve when playing with Sturridge next to him. It is frustrating that he never passes when he should though.

To single out Balotelli for not pressing Kroos on the 2nd goal is fair in isolation, but its totally unfair to blame him while at the same time ignoring how slack everyone else was. After Mignolet made the punch, everyone else was walking casually out of the box - not a single midfielder ran out to press the ball, and the CB's sank too deep to quickly (again)

Set-pieces, set-pieces, set-pieces... It can't be that f*cking hard to teach can it? Its BASICS!

Too many fans have been making excuses for the coaching and blaming the players but there is only one answer left and the coaches have to take a good look at themselves. If they can't get the same players who do well for their national teams to play well for Liverpool, then they have to be replaced by better coaches. As the manager, Rodgers has been shown up by his coaches and by his own inability to solve the defensive problem. It is just not accceptable to watch us lurch from one defensive mess to another and he needs to find the answer fast or bring in better coaches to help him find it.

[Ken-Obi]

Have to preface this by saying we lost to the best, tied for the best, team in the world. A team that had scored 32 goals in 7 games coming in to today. As a fan of the sport, I can watch that midfield trio of Isco, Kroos and Modric dove-tail off each other all day. Relentless team, and this was without Ramos and Bale. Varane was outstanding and is outstanding, so quick across the ground. If Ilori can become half that good, we'll have a talented CB.


I can say a lot, both of the goods and the bads, but I just want to say one thing. Yes their first was so exquistely classy that I want to buy an iPad and have a loop of that goal framed on a wall. But Gerrard again is so easily ghosted by its saddening. Clyne for S'hampton is a quick example of how poor we are at tracking runners. It's mainly his decision making, far too often he "stabs" in on the ball for the tackle. Missing it. Thus perpetuating the 1-2. Ronaldo's obviously brilliant enough to see a 1-2 on his own. But the way Gerrard dives in to win a tackle literally makes the 1-2 the clearest option for a player. Even average players do it because it's so open. That is what stings the most from this game. The set piece goals are a disgrace but we've all talked about our deficiencies defensively on aerially balls enough. We rarely talk about how glorious our team would operate if we had a Matic type, technical ball-winner at the base. Gerrard is my idol, don't get me wrong, he should still play. But he misses on sooo many of the nuances of the position

Oh and Remy sure would have been nice to have...

"Regrets are anchors that prevents one from moving forward". - unknown -

I'd substitute that with "what ifs".

[oojason]

Yeah I noticed that too, even though its a little harsh to blame him alone.

Absolutely mate - Gerrard in the DM position doesn't track the runner (Ronaldo) - and his focus along with Lovren's switches to James on the ball (who Moreno is already close to) and all 3 are taken out of the game.

Though it is a beautifully executed goal by Real - the first-time shot is superb and gives Skrtel no chance of getting across in time - which he may well have done usually as probably a large percentage of forwards in that position would have taken a touch before shooting (damn that Ronaldo!).

[Skidder.]

Has anyone got one of those mates who sort of like... Has to verbalise his mental processes?

[Yerolo]

    I needed that after seeing all the negativity on these boards this morning

[NealFrom25Yards]

I think all that needs to be said about it is that OUR OWN manager thought it was stupid and disrespectful, which is why he hauled him off at half time. Which also means that the "so what if he swapped shirts" people ridiculously defending him are completely and utterly wrong.

We don't know that's why he took him off...well, unless I've missed something, which is entirely possible.

I wasn't in favour of signing Balotelli. He hasn't done anything on the pitch to change my mind. That said, I have no problem with his 'attitude', I just don't think he's a very good player, or a player who's at all suited to what we're building - but I really hate the scapegoating that he's getting.

In my mind, he's been nothing but respectful of the club and the fans since he arrived.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

Something is clearly wrong back there - as great as the 1st goal was tonight (a truly exquisite lobbed pass for a 1-2 for Ronaldo to get onto the end of) - watch Lovren - for some reason he runs out of the defencive line for no reason when there is already Moreno and another Red in front of him close to James, leaving a large space for anyone to run into between him and the goalie.

It's a great goal - but poor decision making from Lovren to position himself there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCp_eIAnt74 (pause it on 1 second into the vid)

Look at that video again, mate. It's Stevie that leaves his man, Ronaldo, by chasing the ball to Rodriguez. Three men close in on Rodriguez and a bit of magic finds Ronaldo open, done deal.

Second one I was screaming 'OUT' at Johnno. This defense doesn't know how to step up to catch them offside. Basic defending, but we play too deep or don't move as a unit. It happens again & again, and it's not just Johnno. Comes down to the training ground at basic defensive drilling.

Third one, typical shambles from set pieces we've seen over & over, not just from your Real Madrids.

We need a new defensive coach & get some drilling done at Melwood.

Oh, and a half decent keeper would help, too.

[GregCharrua]

1. We lost to an in-form Real Madrid side that's playing fantastic football.

2. Goals 2 and 3 were preventable. Almost all goals scored are. Otherwise, the defense and the entire team looked much more together, and put in a good shift.

3. We're still missing Suarez and Sturridge. Right now, there's no one on the team that looks like a goal threat. There was a lot of good build up and work going on, but when it came time to get a shot off we were snuffed out or just lacked the killer edge.

4. We almost won the league last year and that has really made Rodgers life difficult. We piggy-backed on an in-form Suarez and Sturridge, but the team as a whole still had much work to do - otherwise we would have won the league. I like everyone had hope that this season we'd more or less pick up where we left off but we haven't and that was the most likely and reasonable outcome. Too many are holding the squad to that standard, when its just not going to happen. We want top 4 this season and to keep improving and to strengthen the entire squad. Anything else is a happy bonus.

5. Balotelli isn't so awful. Not sure if he got hooked for swapping shirts or Rodgers just wanted to put more pressure on RM with more pressing. But it isn't his 'fault' that the team is where it is. He's just one of a squad.

6. Our transfer business wasn't shit. Lallana, Lovren, Moreno, Manquillo, and Can are all looking pretty solid. Markovic will take time and he's young. Lambert is a back up striker that loves the club and fights his heart out for us. Balotelli is a 16m signing, the media fanfare is not about his football, yet we are looking to him as if we paid 70m and he was a world-class signing. He wasn't and isn't. And it's way to early to damn him.


I understand how a lot of you feel, my gut hurt watching to the end, but imagine how the squad is feeling. Everyone knows we need to do better. They are working on it. There is no switch to flip and make it better that Rodgers is stubbornly ignoring.

We're going to get better.

And tonight was a shame, but it wasn't the end of the world.

[rickardinho1]

Who is the defensive coach?

I don't think we need to abandon the attacking philosophy, since most of the goals we're conceding aren't down to getting countered on or being caught out by the ball on the ground, but rather due to basic structural errors when the team is defending aerial balls as a unit (eg. Jagielka goal, QPR's two, set pieces, etc).

Surely a knowledgeable defensive brain could sort out most of these issues and get the back 4 playing an offside trap instead of collapsing in on itself?... someone like Carragher, Hyypia, Steve Clarke, whoever... It wouldn't even need to be someone working full-time with the team, just someone who can come in once a week to drill the back 4 to get them coordinated.

It's fair enough wanting a "leader" like Lovren, but if you're not using time on the training pitch effectively to get the back 4 coordinated then the defense is never going to be functioning. It should be the first item on Rodgers' agenda right now imo.

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

You know what keeps striking me about the game. It wasn't all the obvious stuff, it is that Ronaldo was better at defending set pieces for them than any of our defenders were for us.
That is not some throw away joke, it is what actually happened. Maybe the best attacker in the world, just helping out at the back, seemed better drilled than our defenders at the basics.
There is no shame in being beaten by Real Madrid. There is no need, in my opinion, to start finding which defender/midfielder to blame for Ronaldo's goal, that was magic, just admire it. But the other goals. That is what has happened all season, and was not unusual last year.
We've spent what, close to 60 million the last two seasons to improve our defence and are we better, at actually defending than the team he inherited from Kenny? Not a chance.
Being more vunerably because you are a team that's attacking nature leads to more risks is fine. I am happy with that trade off. But that is not the same as being opened up, every game, by exactly the level of football skill that lower league players could manage.
That is why the witch hunt for Mario is so frustrating. He has been a poor signing and nobody needs to pretend otherwise, but a less mobile and intune than we'd like striker is not where attention needs to be.

[Ken-Obi]

The team probably did a lot of work on ball and player movement, and not enough on player movement without it - I think Zola commented about that a couple of weeks ago IIRC.

[AndyInVA]

I thought the first 20 minutes were a joy to watch and really put a smile on my face as I felt we slugged it out with them

the moment of brilliance for the first goal clearly blew the stuffing out of the team and it was down hill from there. Just never recovered which was a bit disappointing. seeing Glen Johnson as our left back closest to the scorer for the second showed how run ragged our defence was as everyone was out of position

I saw Ballotelli play in Charlotte for AC Milan and he is clearly not the run around merchant back he acted as a great lay off man and was able to provide some excellent balls from center out to the wing and lay offs to on coming mid fielders. I really feel that Ballotelli/Sturridge is a partnership with potential. But he clearly not a lone striker and really needs to be in a 4-4-2

the bottom line is that we got clearly beat by a better team and the defence seems to have the same issues against all our opponents (except Tottenham)

[Historical Fool]

lol at MR

[ThePoolMan]

There is no shame in being beaten by Real Madrid.

You make many good points but on this point I would have to disagree. We should be ashamed at being trounced like that.

Of course Real has more quality than we do. But we have to be angry at losing 0-3 to ANYONE in our own stadium. Of course losing by that margin to Real is better than losing 0-3 to QPR but we have to get angry enough about being shown up on home ground to fight for a win.

They can be better in skill but they should never outfight us or outwork us - what more in our own stadium. It is up to the players and the manager now to draw up that indignation to turn Real over in THEIR own stadium.

[B0151?]

How annoying is it that we were banging in goals from set-pieces for fun last year and now when we're really struggling, it's just not happening? Like, not even close.

It's a cop out to blame them but when you think back to our tough games last season, we really did come through with those type of goals. Either to get us rolling or to keep us in the game. I'm aware this is a pointless thing to rant about, but blah.