Topic: Time to stop and think....

[stfabians]

Rafa has got to try and stop outsmarting other managers who you simply can't outsmart - why - because they don't go into games with tactics and game plans!!!  Rafa is obsessed with what other teams will do, and in the end he just outsmarts himself.  The only time he wasn't is when we played that amazing brand of footy at the end of last year.  Something in that run got to him, that has made him go back into his shell (so to speak) and become even more obsessed with tactics and worries.  As it is, we've conceded more points and goals than ever!!!

The answer (I THINK< NOT KNOW) is the two Chelsea games (champions league) and the 4 - 4 draw with Arsenal.  The champions league game more so, because that would have hurt him big time, four goals conceded in one half, whilst scoring two ourselves, which realistically should have been enough when the agg score was 3-3 at the start of the second half in the second leg!!!

He's also so stubborn, if we had lost every game this season, he wouldn't change his system / way of doing things!!!

Question is, after 5 years, does it work???

[todda]

agree with stfabians,  Rafa needs to concentrate on what we are going to do rather than what the other team is going to do.  We need to start making teams worry about us again, which seems to have gone from other teams thoughts, most teams come to Anfield or at their own grounds thinking "we can get something today" Rafa needs to be more attacking and put fear into sides and stop playing the big hoof against teams like Wolves.

Pass and Move Rafa.  Start doing it again it is our way.

[Yakyb]

Before you say why you want him out, just think about this:

Rafa's one of ours. He'll know when it's time to go, (and don't anyone start saying he's only here for the money).

Think about what you are actually saying when you call for him to be sacked. Is that the values you live by - screaming for a man to be sacked?

We do our business in private. Let Purslow and Rafa talk it through - in peace and quiet. If they decide to keep going - great.

We are always banging on about keeping the Liverpool history and values. Screaming for change and histrionics isn't what we're about.

[Fat Scouser]

Like yorky i thought 6 years in the making we would look more like Valencia and less like Stoke city!

Didn't want to put up the whole of both this post and Yorky's, but the last sentence sort of covers it....

Rafa doesn't send them out on the pitch and tell them to play like that. And yes, he prefers Duck Kite the water carrier above Babel, but I do meself.

As for the Wolves game.... did Rafa settle for a point by refusing to bring on Babel and Aquilani?

Well, I think he made the one attacking substitution he wasn't weary of making by bringing on N'Gog, and hoped to nick a goal and all three points, but wasn't going to gamble anymore than that.

But I also agree with what he seemed to be thinking... we could have just as easily lost that game had he gambled and threw on Babel and Aquilani. In fact, I'd go as far as to say, a month ago, we would have lost that game regardless of what he would have done.

And I know the two posts are looking back at the big picture of Rafa's tenure, but Rafa has to look at the big one ahead...
In our situation, the loss of revenue by not finishing fourth is far more important than our entertainment. So, that game can't really be judged until the end of the season as a point gained or two lost.

As for the big picture this season.... I'd like a trip to Hamburg, and to finish at least third with a cherry on top - the Mancs dropping down to 5th would be nice. But I'm prepared to write it off as our Seasonus Horribillis.

To me it's just a vicious cycle...
The shit pre-season led into a bad start. Too much football for Gerrard and Torres led to the injuries. The injuries, bad reffing, unsettled line ups, and sheer bad luck, led to heads dropping. Heads dropped, the lack of confidence took over. Other manager's/teams were onto it like a pack of hyenas and went all out against us. The media pressure and constant Skywashing affected the team and the fans. And on and on it went, each thing making the other worse.

As for the actual performances...
The lack of confidence has led the team to drop back and defend far too deep - going against everything Rafa has instilled in them. The whole team implodes back on itself. The defence launches the ball instead of playing it short and building. There's no one up there to collect it. The ball comes straight back at us.

How do we get out of this, well again I believe in Rafa... We work hard.

But I think this slump has gone on for so long that until we get a fully fit Torres and Gerrard on the pitch you better get used to it and be prepared to watch some horrible shit on a stick performances, but hopefully picking up maximum points.

I know. I know. But I live in hope. And I firmly believe once we get something like our full 11 on the pitch in some state of match fitness, the real LFC will stand up and we'll be seeing something more like Valencia than that shit on stick Stoke lookalike that we seen on Tuesday.

[rafathegaffa83]

I agree with that 99.99%. The only thing I'd say is... they are good enough. And if we ever got something like our full 11 on the field in something resembling a full state of fitness, we'd be whacking the likes of Wolves and a match for any of the top teams. And that's where all the problems stem from...

The slow start, injuries and sheer bad luck have led to a complete lack of confidence. And the likes of Mick McCarthy then send their teams out like a pack of hyenas after a wounded sheep. Each set back compounds it, and I see no answer until we have a fully fit team because from now until the end of the season every team we play will set about us in the same way.

Get Torres, Gerrard, Yossi, Johnson and Agger back on the pitch along with a fully fit Masch and Aquilani (It's time to set this lad loose) and we'll start knocking some results together. But the longer this goes on, the more the rest will allow their heads to drop.

Other than that, I have no answers. But I know one thing.... sacking Rafa isn't the solution. And the hysterical amongst us should think back a little to how we was before the man arrived, because if he walks or is pushed, and the club is left solely in the hands of H&G.... this period could soon be getting screamed about on here as the good old days.

Didn't want to put up the whole of both this post and Yorky's, but the last sentence sort of covers it....

Rafa doesn't send them out on the pitch and tell them to play like that. And yes, he prefers Duck Kite the water carrier above Babel, but I do meself.

As for the Wolves game.... did Rafa settle for a point by refusing to bring on Babel and Aquilani?

Well, I think he made the one attacking substitution he wasn't weary of making by bringing on Ngog, and hoped to nick a goal and all three points, but wasn't going to gamble anymore than that.

But I also agree with what he seemed to be thinking... we could have just as easily lost that game had he gambled and threw on Babel and Aquilani. In fact, I'd go as far as to say, a month ago, we would have lost that game regardless of what he would have done.

And I know the two posts are looking back at the big picture of Rafa's tenure, but Rafa has to look at the big one ahead...
In our situation, the loss of revenue by not finishing fourth is far more important than our entertainment. So, that game can't really be judged until the end of the season as a point gained or two lost.

As for the big picture this season.... I'd like a trip to Hamburg, and to finish at least third with a cherry on top - the Mancs dropping down to 5th would be nice. But I'm prepared to write it off as our Seasonus Horribillis.

To me it's just a vicious cycle...
The shit pre-season led into a bad start. Too much football for Gerrard and Torres led to the injuries. The injuries, bad reffing, unsettled line ups, and sheer bad luck, led to heads dropping. Heads dropped, the lack of confidence took over. Other manager's/teams were onto it like a pack of hyenas and went all out against us. The media pressure and constant Skywashing affected the team and the fans. And on and on it went, each thing making the other worse.

As for the actual performances...
The lack of confidence has led the team to drop back and defend far too deep - going against everything Rafa has instilled in them. The whole team implodes back on itself. The defence launches the ball instead of playing it short and building. There's no one up there to collect it. The ball comes straight back at us.

How do we get out of this, well again I believe in Rafa... We work hard.

But I think this slump has gone on for so long that until we get a fully fit Torres and Gerrard on the pitch you better get used to it and be prepared to watch some horrible shit on a stick performances, but hopefully picking up maximum points.

I know. I know. But I live in hope. And I firmly believe once we get something like our full 11 on the pitch in some state of match fitness, the real LFC will stand up and we'll be seeing something more like Valencia than that shit on stick Stoke lookalike that we seen on Tuesday.

Spot on

[MerseysideRedsFan]

Brilliant post FS. Totally agree.

[yafoy]

, we've never been able to open teams up in the final third and create clear-cut chances consistently game-in, game-out. 

never, not even last season, scoring 4 goals a game?

[Stan.]

never, not even last season, scoring 4 goals a game?

Don't think we've ever had a season were we've scored 4 goals a game.

[killer-heels]

In response to FS' post, can a bad pre-season have such a massive influence on players? When we were performing bad in pre-season you dare not mention it, otherwise you were told to 'get a grip' or told 'its only pre-season ffs'.

We performed badly in pre-season but it could be possible that there may have been other things behind the scenes that led to the players confidence dropping massively. The loss of Alonso clearly hit the squad hard, with Gerrard and Reina giving negative and almost defeatist interviews before and just at the start of the season.

But isn't improving the mentality and instilling confidence part of what a top manager has to provide? We started the season with still a fair number of healthy players and our spine pretty much fit and ready. The poor form right at the start then seem to lead to a further reduction in confidence. Bad form seems to also be met with injuries, with players coming back early than normal due to wanting to help the team.

Many teams have injuries and many of the teams we have lost and dropped points to should really be beaten with the squad we have, even with the injuries.

Also, it is quite possible that under Rafa we could easily have another poor run of form and then a host of injuries. But should this then lead to the team becoming totally different to what they were last season and what we were hoping they would become? I haven't been watching football for long but what I have seen in the Premier League is that it seems to reward those teams that stick to its principles and their goals and don't compromise on it. It is thus questionable that Rafa's approach of going into his defensive shell everytime we hit a period of bad form will ever lead to sustained glory in the league.

Gerrard's interview and Rafa's comments suggest that, although players may be defending deep as a result of a lack of confidence, that Rafa himself is currently more concerned with keeping a clean sheet and nicking an odd goal.

My personal opinions are that Rafa should get one more season realistically to turn it around, even if we don't come in the top 4. But I personally think Rafa himself has to improve because he has mistakes this season, starting with the mentality he set.

[yafoy]

amazing - this thread, with mostly reasonable exchanges , has only 6 pages, whilst the "sly sports " Juve rumour thread has 16 or so..like load of hens pickign at a carcass..no wonedr the media love to pull us apart , we open the door to let our enemy in..

[Kop4]

..........I haven't been watching football for long but what I have seen in the Premier League is that it seems to reward those teams that stick to its principles and their goals and don't compromise on it. It is thus questionable that Rafa's approach of going into his defensive shell everytime we hit a period of bad form will ever lead to sustained glory in the league.

Gerrard's interview and Rafa's comments suggest that, although players may be defending deep as a result of a lack of confidence, that Rafa himself is currently more concerned with keeping a clean sheet and nicking an odd goal.

My personal opinions are that Rafa should get one more season realistically to turn it around, even if we don't come in the top 4. But I personally think Rafa himself has to improve because he has mistakes this season, starting with the mentality he set.

[/b]

Maybe not watching football for long , but so much sense.  Rafa would get another season from me too but he really needs to shut up an put up.  He has many faults as well as qualities that need to be addressed.

However, if he wants out himself, then go now and close the door.

[yafoy]

My personal opinions are that Rafa should get one more season realistically to turn it around, even if we don't come in the top 4. But I personally think Rafa himself has to improve because he has mistakes this season, starting with the mentality he set.

? agreed he deserves the time, at least to prove he did not start with the wrong "mantality" maybe the players like Steve and Nando shoudl ask themselves what damage they have done to our chances by playing in meaningless compettitons and NOT being fit to play for us, who pay their wages and whom they tell us they want to wine the league for, I doubt their intentions , but I think they have to share in the responsibility ..

and...our injuries have been "extra-ordinary" , even from the first game when Carra and Skrtel crocked each other within 15 mins, ..surely in your life there are times when U just have no luck, accidents, make mistakes and cant do a thing right, even when U are doing everything  like u did before...? thats our season, as FS said the viscous circle, along with too many weak fans that have jumped on board in recent years or been spoilt by old glories..

we really should hold togetrher for reasons that surely dont need repeating, all the best, lass , goodnight , I have had enough of this sh*te x

[Gnurglan]

He's also so stubborn, if we had lost every game this season, he wouldn't change his system / way of doing things!!!

Question is, after 5 years, does it work???

First, I think you have a valid point in us believing more in our own qualities. But that's easier said than done when the basics (pressing game and defending set pieces for instance) have not worked.

But the system, I disagree there. We may set ourselves up as 4-2-3-1, but that doesn't mean it's always the same. And of course he's stubborn. He believes in his methods. I'd be very worried if he was to change his fundamental beliefs now.

[Tomaldinho]

I love Rafa the man, there's no doubt he's one of us and cares about the club, you can see it in his eyes every time he gets interviewed after a bad result. I love that he does that rather than sulk in his dressing room like that shithouse Ferguson. I'm livid every time those pathetic media twats give him the same rude, obnoxious interviews they wouldn't dream of treating other managers with. He still manages to come out during such a horrible time and give this horrible treatment the scorn it deserves with jest and good humour. I respect him to the fullest for this.

The truth is I'm not sure anymore if Rafa is the right guy to manage us. I certainly don't want him to be cast aside without a chance like some of our so called fans who join in with the jibes against his nationality or his physique like they were any old manc or the neanderthal fan of some no-mark outfit in the lower leagues. They should be cast aside instead.

There's no doubt that the circumstances for Rafa aren't perfect right now and of course there are more important things going on away from the pitch. Of course it would be better if these could be sorted out first so that Rafa could get a fair crack. That would certainly be my ideal scenario.

All I'm saying is that it's extremely worrying to see so many fans still following without question.

It frustrates me when I come on here and read some of the stuff that is said. We all know what the Liverpool way is but I didn't think being in denial was part of it.

I don't even get to many games and alot of people will tell me that means I don't get the right to comment. But I still watch the games, and I don't really see how anyone else who does, at the ground or on the telly, can still have a opinion of Rafa the manager being perfect.

Of course he hasn't had the absolute ideal situation to do his job, but we still need to be realistic and say that this season he hasn't done the best with what he's been given and when people talk as if he's perfect you have to ask "are our standards slipping?". Obviously don't want to detour from my point but to use an example of the incredible support that Lucas gets on here, it is astonishing. I notice a vast number of posters take every possible little opportunity to praise Lucas, especially for his consistency. Has consistently mediocre become praiseworthy? In my eyes it is symptomatic of an attitude where people refuse to accept that Rafa can do any wrong whatsoever.

Earlier in the thread someone managed to spew out that "Liverpool FC aren't about winning trophies" just to fit their argument and if that's not denial I don't know what is.

I'm sure I'll be slated for some of the above but my gripe is with people who say "people only think we've gone shite because they've been brainwashed by the media". They're wrong. Obviously people can see for themselves what's happening on the pitch.

Maybe I'm missing the point and the it's become necessary to follow blindly for a while. As I said Rafa is one of us and we'd feel 100 times worse if he were replaced by some G&H yes-man collecting a wage. I suppose being a manager of a club like Liverpool is more than just what goes on in the games and noone showed that more than Shanks. There's no doubting Rafa as a man to represent us as people and in that regard we should surely treasure him. It's just disappointing to listen to people spout as if once the Yanks are gone it will be plain sailing to 19, 20 and beyond.

As I said earlier the ideal outcome would be to support Rafa, ride out this horrible horrible storm and hope that then and only then does he get to be judged as whether he's the man to lead us on afterwards.

I just don't think its necessary to lie to ourselves along the way.

[Keens]

Last Updated: Thursday, 15 June 2006, 13:37 GMT 14:37 UK  BBC Website

 
Liverpool cleared to sign Alves 
 
Alves has been a long-term target of Liverpool's Rafael Benitez
Sevilla have reluctantly agreed to sell defender Daniel Alves to Liverpool, but say the Reds have yet to match their asking price, believed to be £8m.
The 23-year-old's agent Jose Rodriguez said his client was very interested in a move to Anfield.

"Daniel is happy where he is but he wants to improve like anyone else," Rodriguez told AS newspaper.

"I do not want to say he does not want to stay at Sevilla but it is clear he is attracted by a move to Liverpool."

Alves is a long-term target of Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez.

Sevilla president Jose Maria del Nido said: "We're already talking big money but Sevilla don't want to lose Daniel.

"He has let us know the offer from Liverpool is the most important. But he has not put pressure on us and we don't have a harsh relationship with him."

Brazilian Alves has been at Sevilla for four years now and impressed during their Uefa Cup success in 2006, most notably in the 4-0 demolition of Middlesbrough in the final.

Liverpool are thought to have already made a £7m bid for the player, which was deemed too low by his current employers.

Del Nido added: "Liverpool have not yet made us an offer which is acceptable. Until they meet our asking price, there's no deal."

 
IF ONLY THIS HAPPENED.................................................

[ChrisV]

Rafa doesn't send them out on the pitch and tell them to play like that.

Does he tell Carra (among others) not to constantly hoof the ball? If not, why not? If so, how come he's still doing it? It's not like misplaced passes where it's a form issue. It's a decision making issue. If Rafa can't influence the decision making of players then he isn't doing his job. Same deal with this:

The lack of confidence has led the team to drop back and defend far too deep - going against everything Rafa has instilled in them.

Again, if Rafa can't even get his players to be in the right place on the park, then is he the man for the job? It's like if you went to a restaurant and the food was shit and someone said "well it's not the head chef's fault, he doesn't tell the cooks to cook like that". It's the head chef's fucking job to make them cook properly. Rafa can't influence form - he couldn't make Keane stop missing sitters - but it's his job to make sure the team do the right thing strategically.

I don't get how you can separate managing ability from the ability to motivate players. People always talk about how the players would have walked through fire for Bill Shankly. Isn't that a (large) part of what made him a good manager? If Rafa doesn't have that kind of command of his players, doesn't that detract from his ability to be a good manager?

But I also agree with what he seemed to be thinking... we could have just as easily lost that game had he gambled and threw on Babel and Aquilani. In fact, I'd go as far as to say, a month ago, we would have lost that game regardless of what he would have done.

You get two more points for a win and only lose one for a loss. Making a substitution could be nearly twice as likely to convert a draw into a loss as to convert it into a win, and it would still be a good gamble.

In our situation, the loss of revenue by not finishing fourth is far more important than our entertainment. So, that game can't really be judged until the end of the season as a point gained or two lost.

Given that we're already out of the top four, gambling for points is even more important. Finishing 6th at the end of the season is not really any worse than 5th, while finishing 4th is huge. It's like the reverse of a relegation battle (where you accept draws and try to avoid losing).

[RedChanel]

I do not know how difficult it is for me to sit behind a computer screen in the comfort of my hall and criticise the manager who is going through a hell of a time.

We do not become a poor team in just over a season. Every team has is ups and downs, but stability is the key(at least in managerial aspect) . Look at Man Utd and Arsenal.

I am confident come end of the season we can get the fourth spot, not expecting an easy ride though.

[xerxes1]

Given that we're already out of the top four, gambling for points is even more important. Finishing 6th at the end of the season is not really any worse than 5th, while finishing 4th is huge. It's like the reverse of a relegation battle (where you accept draws and try to avoid losing).

A good post overall except for this last paragraph. IF we manage 4th place, our problems are far from over and I would have little confidence that we will go any further in the CL than we did this season. It is the way we are playing which is more than a problem than simply the results.

[Gnurglan]

All I'm saying is that it's extremely worrying to see so many fans still following without question.

It frustrates me when I come on here and read some of the stuff that is said. We all know what the Liverpool way is but I didn't think being in denial was part of it.

I don't even get to many games and alot of people will tell me that means I don't get the right to comment. But I still watch the games, and I don't really see how anyone else who does, at the ground or on the telly, can still have a opinion of Rafa the manager being perfect.

He ain't perfect. This season has been well below par, in particular with last season in mind. When we talk results, we can point to all sorts of things (injuries, money, beach balls etd), but the bottom line is still that we've performed well below par. That's just the case.

The reason I believe in Rafa is I believe in his methods. I remember what he said when he first arrived. He said that he was always looking to improve. I also remember him saying that comment about having a table with three legs (so we needed to add a fourth). That's what I see and have seen for years. By no means does it guarantee future success (nothing does), but I believe he's set things up well, I believe this season is a one off and I believe we'll come out of this stronger (because we identify weaknesses and correct them). Results this season don't support those thoughts. So for me it comes down to having faith in the way we operate.

[xerxes1]

He ain't perfect. This season has been well below par, in particular with last season in mind. When we talk results, we can point to all sorts of things (injuries, money, beach balls etd), but the bottom line is still that we've performed well below par. That's just the case.

The reason I believe in Rafa is I believe in his methods. I remember what he said when he first arrived. He said that he was always looking to improve. I also remember him saying that comment about having a table with three legs (so we needed to add a fourth). That's what I see and have seen for years. By no means does it guarantee future success (nothing does), but I believe he's set things up well, I believe this season is a one off and I believe we'll come out of this stronger (because we identify weaknesses and correct them). Results this season don't support those thoughts. So for me it comes down to having faith in the way we operate.

Like you, I continue to believe Rafa CAN do it, but I do think that things have gone seriously off the rails since he got his new contract ( complacency perhaps) and he must take responsibility for that.His "concentrate on the next game" mantra has been a piss-take when he has ****** up the last.

He should have till the end of next season, unless he has "lost the dressing room".

[ChrisV]

A good post overall except for this last paragraph. IF we manage 4th place, our problems are far from over and I would have little confidence that we will go any further in the CL than we did this season. It is the way we are playing which is more than a problem than simply the results.

Well, yeah.... but that doesn't have much to do with what I was saying, which was simply that we ought to be aggressively going after points rather than being afraid of converting draws to losses.

[xerxes1]

Well, yeah.... but that doesn't have much to do with what I was saying, which was simply that we ought to be aggressively going after points rather than being afraid of converting draws to losses.

Agreed!

[Stan.]

Does he tell Carra (among others) not to constantly hoof the ball? If not, why not? If so, how come he's still doing it? It's not like misplaced passes where it's a form issue. It's a decision making issue. If Rafa can't influence the decision making of players then he isn't doing his job. Same deal with this:

Again, if Rafa can't even get his players to be in the right place on the park, then is he the man for the job? It's like if you went to a restaurant and the food was shit and someone said "well it's not the head chef's fault, he doesn't tell the cooks to cook like that". It's the head chef's fucking job to make them cook properly. Rafa can't influence form - he couldn't make Keane stop missing sitters - but it's his job to make sure the team do the right thing strategically.

I don't get how you can separate managing ability from the ability to motivate players. People always talk about how the players would have walked through fire for Bill Shankly. Isn't that a (large) part of what made him a good manager? If Rafa doesn't have that kind of command of his players, doesn't that detract from his ability to be a good manager?

You get two more points for a win and only lose one for a loss. Making a substitution could be nearly twice as likely to convert a draw into a loss as to convert it into a win, and it would still be a good gamble.

Given that we're already out of the top four, gambling for points is even more important. Finishing 6th at the end of the season is not really any worse than 5th, while finishing 4th is huge. It's like the reverse of a relegation battle (where you accept draws and try to avoid losing).

Good post, and highlights a lot of my worries about us at the moment.  Carragher's been hoofing aimless long balls now for as long as I can remember.  I thought perhaps there was a bit of a reliance on it when Crouch was in the side - even though he was a better player with the ball at his feet - but it seems to be ongoing and the 'hilarious' thing fans of other clubs keep informing me, is that at least arsenal and wimbledon won the second balls when they did it.

Watching us play is excruciating sometimes, and one of the worse things when we do get the ball on the deck is the reluctance of players to drop into space to receive the ball.  Considering we play with two 'holding' midfielders, the back four have so few options and regularly seem to rely on a long hoof (al la Carra) or a risky under pressure back pass to Reina (al la Skirtel/Agger).

Sometimes I literally can't believe what I'm watching when we struggle to even bother sides like Wolves.

We have seen some good football under Rafa, but we need to go out there and start bossing games - we've got the players to do so, but they currently seem so reluctant (for want of a better phrase) to simply go out and play.

[harvey-tuttle]

Agreed!

that the only positive from U, amazing ...

to those who betray the Spirit of Shankly; if you lose that which has made us the greatest club/supporters in the World, by your refusal to TRULY SUPPORT the REDS, team and manager , nor honour our "holy trinity" U (and maybe the next generation) will regret for the rest of y-our lives, its that important, theres a mil...lion worldwide Lfc fans and the world looks on, in a global mess which has sold it soul to the highest bidder/one with the most weapons..this is not a matter of life and death - its much more important ,than that...so dont be surprised if u choke at YNWA,

[adwhite40]

3. we will over come this bad run of form and go from strenght to strength.

Rafa has to stay!!!!

Love the above

[Stan.]

Last Updated: Thursday, 15 June 2006, 13:37 GMT 14:37 UK  BBC Website

 
Liverpool cleared to sign Alves 
 
Alves has been a long-term target of Liverpool's Rafael Benitez
Sevilla have reluctantly agreed to sell defender Daniel Alves to Liverpool, but say the Reds have yet to match their asking price, believed to be £8m.
The 23-year-old's agent Jose Rodriguez said his client was very interested in a move to Anfield.

"Daniel is happy where he is but he wants to improve like anyone else," Rodriguez told AS newspaper.

"I do not want to say he does not want to stay at Sevilla but it is clear he is attracted by a move to Liverpool."

Alves is a long-term target of Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez.

Sevilla president Jose Maria del Nido said: "We're already talking big money but Sevilla don't want to lose Daniel.

"He has let us know the offer from Liverpool is the most important. But he has not put pressure on us and we don't have a harsh relationship with him."

Brazilian Alves has been at Sevilla for four years now and impressed during their Uefa Cup success in 2006, most notably in the 4-0 demolition of Middlesbrough in the final.

Liverpool are thought to have already made a £7m bid for the player, which was deemed too low by his current employers.

Del Nido added: "Liverpool have not yet made us an offer which is acceptable. Until they meet our asking price, there's no deal."

 
IF ONLY THIS HAPPENED.................................................

I know I'm probably breaking RAWK rules to say this about an englishman, but there's not much in it between Alves and Johnson.  He's a freekick master, but that aside, as an attacking force Johnson at his best would hold his own against him, and quite frankly some of Alves' defending makes Johnson look like Bobby Moore.

Houllier missing out on Ronaldo to the mancs is the killer for me.