Author Topic: Masters of the Air - HBO Series  (Read 3373 times)

Offline meady1981

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Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« on: January 29, 2024, 07:03:53 pm »
Not sure if this is the right thread to resurrect for the new Masters of the Air series.

Watched 2 eps, was a bit worried it was straying into glossy Pear Harbour territory at first but it's settling in nicely and Im enjoying it.

One small gripe, why is anyone English always either a Cholmondley-Warner wanker or bumbling ruddy farmer in these.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 05:52:47 pm by Alan_X »

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2024, 07:06:14 pm »
Not sure if this is the right thread to resurrect for the new Masters of the Air series.

Watched 2 eps, was a bit worried it was straying into glossy Pear Harbour territory at first but it's settling in nicely and Im enjoying it.

One small gripe, why is anyone English always either a Cholmondley-Warner wanker or bumbling ruddy farmer in these.

The cheeky, chappy Cockney wide boy, a Michael Caine Alfie lite, will be along shortly.

Oh, and a romantic but conflicted Irishman who’s hidden his RAF role from his Republican family. ;D

Offline meady1981

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2024, 07:20:35 pm »
The cheeky, chappy Cockney wide boy, a Michael Caine Alfie lite, will be along shortly.

Oh, and a romantic but conflicted Irishman who’s hidden his RAF role from his Republican family. ;D

Oh yeah, I forgot about the apples and pears, get your mince pies round that plonker in BoB

Offline RedSince86

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2024, 08:34:02 pm »
Waiting for the all the episodes to be done then bingeing over a weekend.

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2024, 10:30:25 pm »
There’s only two out isn’t there?

nevermind me, I thought we were talking about The Pacific
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Offline meady1981

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2024, 08:43:54 am »
nevermind me, I thought we were talking about The Pacific

Sorry I’ve confused matters!

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2024, 12:00:35 pm »
Is this new series based on anything real?

from wiki:

It is based on the 2007 book Masters of the Air: America's Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany by Donald L. Miller and follows the actions of the 100th Bomb Group, a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bomber unit in the Eighth Air Force in eastern England during World War II.

It’s sad there being no talking-head snippets at the start.


War ended nearly 80 years ago, so would be very surprised if there was many, if any, alive now.

Can't believe Band of Brothers came out 23 years ago. :o
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 12:03:33 pm by Rob K »
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Offline meady1981

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2024, 01:15:23 pm »
from wiki:

It is based on the 2007 book Masters of the Air: America's Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany by Donald L. Miller and follows the actions of the 100th Bomb Group, a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bomber unit in the Eighth Air Force in eastern England during World War II.


War ended nearly 80 years ago, so would be very surprised if there was many, if any, alive now.

Can't believe Band of Brothers came out 23 years ago. :o

Meant sad as in they’re all dead!

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2024, 01:22:00 pm »
Meant sad as in they’re all dead!

Blimey when I started work 50 years ago two of my older colleagues had flown in Bomber Command and one in another office had been a Spitfire pilot.

Not surprisingly they never talked about the war.

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2024, 01:34:56 pm »
Blimey when I started work 50 years ago two of my older colleagues had flown in Bomber Command and one in another office had been a Spitfire pilot.

Not surprisingly they never talked about the war.

As David Niven said, when he visited an old friend who was in a war cemetery. "Niven, here are 27,000 reasons why you should keep your mouth shut."
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Re: The Pacific - HBO Series
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2024, 01:41:15 pm »
from wiki:

It is based on the 2007 book Masters of the Air: America's Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany by Donald L. Miller and follows the actions of the 100th Bomb Group, a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bomber unit in the Eighth Air Force in eastern England during World War II.


War ended nearly 80 years ago, so would be very surprised if there was many, if any, alive now.

Can't believe Band of Brothers came out 23 years ago. :o

The armoured clash in the BoB episode Carentan is supposed to be the most accurate depiction of armoured warfare on screen. In the vehicles involved, the small unit tactics involved, and the reactions of the soldiers on both sides.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2024, 05:53:10 pm »
Split into a new topic.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2024, 06:14:50 pm »
Split into a new topic.

Change the title to "Masters of the Air - Apple Series" then ;)
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Offline Schmarn

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2024, 10:51:28 pm »

A bit hit and miss so far. The flight scenes are gripping. Less enthused by the back slapping in bars which is heavy on stereotypes both for the Americans and the Brits.

Will be interested to see if they address the issues of morality around carpet bombing. Not an easy one even now.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2024, 11:37:38 pm »
Elvis is in it.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2024, 11:45:16 pm »
A bit hit and miss so far. The flight scenes are gripping. Less enthused by the back slapping in bars which is heavy on stereotypes both for the Americans and the Brits.

Will be interested to see if they address the issues of morality around carpet bombing. Not an easy one even now.

Less of an issue back then. Only an issue in modern days and asymmetrical warfare. Germany pioneered the bombing of civilians, having done so on a number of occasions before the Allies took it up. And back then, you didn't have "carpet bombing". You had tactical bombing (mostly more accurate with less interference), and you had strategic bombing (less accurate due to high and multiple levels of interference). Use tactical bombers in areas with high interference, and you lose the lot (eg. the grievous losses of Stukas in the BoB). They bombed as accurately as their technology and the battlefield would allow.

FWIW, even tactical bombing can be inaccurate at times. While the US strategic bombers infamously bombed the wrong country on occasion, their tactical bombers dented their ground troops and killed one of their generals in the preparations for one (aborted) operation.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2024, 12:19:04 am »
Less of an issue back then. Only an issue in modern days and asymmetrical warfare. Germany pioneered the bombing of civilians, having done so on a number of occasions before the Allies took it up. And back then, you didn't have "carpet bombing". You had tactical bombing (mostly more accurate with less interference), and you had strategic bombing (less accurate due to high and multiple levels of interference). Use tactical bombers in areas with high interference, and you lose the lot (eg. the grievous losses of Stukas in the BoB). They bombed as accurately as their technology and the battlefield would allow.

FWIW, even tactical bombing can be inaccurate at times. While the US strategic bombers infamously bombed the wrong country on occasion, their tactical bombers dented their ground troops and killed one of their generals in the preparations for one (aborted) operation.

I’m not sure how one might categorise the bombing of Dresden or Tokyo as tactical but I agree entirely that at the time very few would have questioned it especially as both Axis regimes initiated war and were fanatically supported by the vast majority of their citizens.

I get the sense the series is alluding to the point as they make great play of the Americans’ initial strategy of daylight bombing to ensure accuracy (and at one point their refusal to drop their load over Germany) as against the British preference for night time bombing and “hitting anything German”. No idea if that difference of approach was true or fictional.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2024, 01:29:59 am »
I’m not sure how one might categorise the bombing of Dresden or Tokyo as tactical but I agree entirely that at the time very few would have questioned it especially as both Axis regimes initiated war and were fanatically supported by the vast majority of their citizens.

I get the sense the series is alluding to the point as they make great play of the Americans’ initial strategy of daylight bombing to ensure accuracy (and at one point their refusal to drop their load over Germany) as against the British preference for night time bombing and “hitting anything German”. No idea if that difference of approach was true or fictional.

It was what they believed. The British deemed daylight bombing to involve too high a rate of losses, and believed they had ways of mitigating accuracy issues. The Americans thought they had ways of mitigating the danger, and had the means to maximise accuracy in day time. As it turned out, night time wasn't as safe as the British thought it was, but they could mitigate the loss of accuracy to some extent. As it turned out, for at least the first year or so the Americans didn't really have an answer to the danger, and their belief in the accuracy of their technology (given the circumstances) was misplaced. Eventually, they found solutions to their respective problems. But what you said above was what they believed at the time.

BTW, the Germans didn't think of Dresden as an atrocity. If you look at the wiki entry for that raid, you'll find a range of estimates for the death toll, with 25k being the lowest, and going into 6 figures for higher estimates. 25k was the estimate the Germans came up with, after thoroughly investigating it using all the records they had. It was the Allies, perhaps fearing being pulled up for their actions and regretting what they did, who came up with higher estimates. The highest estimates are from pro-German historians post-war who want to argue that both sides were the same and that the Germans didn't deserve especial condemnation.

Oh, and the likes of Dresden and Tokyo were strategic bombings. Strategic bombing aims for a target on a map and aims to disable the target. Tactical bombing aims to complement simultaneous operations on the ground. Strategic bombers are on level flight as they go over the target area. Tactical bombers aim for a more specific target, such as a convoy, a building, or an area where enemy are forming up. The two types generally use different aircraft types (think B-17 Flying Fortress versus Stuka), with the Mosquito possibly being the only common aircraft successful at both.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2024, 02:42:46 pm »
A bit hit and miss so far. The flight scenes are gripping. Less enthused by the back slapping in bars which is heavy on stereotypes both for the Americans and the Brits.

Will be interested to see if they address the issues of morality around carpet bombing. Not an easy one even now.

The scenes where the fighter planes come at them looks good and real I'm guessing. They appear as dots in the distance and are gone past in seconds. Must have scared the shite out of them. I could barely see them before they hit. Could have been Messerschmitts or Stukas but they were gone so fast I couldn't see them. Which is a pity as you can see the B-17s all of the time. Actually probably not Stukas as the were dive bombers?
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2024, 03:11:10 pm »
The scenes where the fighter planes come at them looks good and real I'm guessing. They appear as dots in the distance and are gone past in seconds. Must have scared the shite out of them. I could barely see them before they hit. Could have been Messerschmitts or Stukas but they were gone so fast I couldn't see them. Which is a pity as you can see the B-17s all of the time. Actually probably not Stukas as the were dive bombers?

Probably Messerscmidt Bf-109s or Focke-Wulf Fw-190s
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Offline Schmarn

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2024, 06:21:15 pm »
The scenes where the fighter planes come at them looks good and real I'm guessing. They appear as dots in the distance and are gone past in seconds. Must have scared the shite out of them. I could barely see them before they hit. Could have been Messerschmitts or Stukas but they were gone so fast I couldn't see them. Which is a pity as you can see the B-17s all of the time. Actually probably not Stukas as the were dive bombers?

Yep not Stukas. The chilling thing for me was that on the long range missions, there was no fighter escort so they were very much sitting ducks in daylight if the Luftwaffe spotted them in time. They may have had escorts later in the war but at that stage, fighters only had enough fuel for limited time over enemy territory.

One of the reasons why the Luftwaffe were at a real disadvantage in the Battle of Britain and why the RAF suffered heavy losses conducting raids over France in the years before D-Day.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2024, 07:02:04 pm »
Really great stuff when they're up in the air but not particularly warming to either of the two leads. I find Austin Butler a bit too smouldering. Keoghan's accent is pretty ropy.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2024, 09:13:19 pm »
Elvis is in it.

He peaked with Vanessa Hudgens, poor actor imo.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2024, 11:40:14 pm »
Yep not Stukas. The chilling thing for me was that on the long range missions, there was no fighter escort so they were very much sitting ducks in daylight if the Luftwaffe spotted them in time. They may have had escorts later in the war but at that stage, fighters only had enough fuel for limited time over enemy territory.

One of the reasons why the Luftwaffe were at a real disadvantage in the Battle of Britain and why the RAF suffered heavy losses conducting raids over France in the years before D-Day.

That was why Bomber Command switched to night bombing, as they were suffering unsustainable losses in daytime bombing. And losses dropped after switching to night time bombing, but they weren't as immune as they thought they were, as there was still flak, and there were night fighters.

The USAAF believed they had the solution, by using tight formations and heavily armed bombers, they could mutually support each other with an impenetrable wall of firepower, as well as ensure a tight bombing pattern. Except that all disappeared when enemy fighters appeared in numbers. And of course, flak was an even greater threat in daylight.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #24 on: February 2, 2024, 02:13:00 pm »

Episode 3 is excellent. Features the attack on the ball bearing factory at Schweinfurt. Series has really found its feet.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #25 on: February 2, 2024, 03:47:28 pm »
Really great stuff when they're up in the air but not particularly warming to either of the two leads. I find Austin Butler a bit too smouldering. Keoghan's accent is pretty ropy.

Along with Torres, probably the only fella I would say "yeah, go on then, I will give it a go". He is ridiculous and in fact I hate him for it. The Mrs goes a bit funny when he's on TV as well. Mind you she had a thing for Stevie, and currently Alisson gets ogled by her.
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Offline meady1981

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #26 on: February 2, 2024, 08:37:46 pm »
Re-watched the first two again and it’s already better than Pacific for me - I am actually warming to the characters myself, despite how beautiful they are. Think the effects are a bit sub-standard though especially the CGI planes. I know it’s different in the air but BoB felt incredibly realistic and that was 20 years ago.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #27 on: February 3, 2024, 08:59:29 pm »
They are doing a series of podcasts about the 8th Air Force on We Have Ways of Making You Talk at the moment, in case anyone is interested in more of the history behind the series. They also did an interview with the lead writer of the series a couple of weeks ago and an interview with the last surviving member of the 100th Bomb Group back in October.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #28 on: February 5, 2024, 01:26:28 pm »
Two episodes in and I'm not warming to it at all despite my high expectations. So far I'm finding the characters largely irritating rather than engaging. I'll stick with it but I think I'll be watching on my own as my Mrs has already bailed out (pun intended).

As for America's precision bombing strategy. When my dad was leading the allied campaign to liberate Italy (that's how he described it to me) his position near the front line came under sustained bombing one day by the Americans. They lost a few lads. I guess having hapless navigators wasn't restricted to the squadron portrayed on tv.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #29 on: February 5, 2024, 04:18:12 pm »
It’s not a patch on band of brothers but I’ll stick with it. Weirdly, the on the ground effects seem worse than BoB despite all the advances.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #30 on: February 5, 2024, 06:17:16 pm »
Just watched a Youtube essay about Pacific being the most expensive HBO series of all time due to practical effects and how it didn't really make much back - BoB had a huge budget - which it made back and some, hence the gamble on Pacific, but most of it was through DVD sales which were flatlining around Pacific. It's so common now to see projects rely heavily on CGI to drastically lower the budgets, but in doing so they completely water down the quality of the CGI with the overwhelming quantity they churn through. So if anything, CGI seems to be largely regressing. The bits in Africa in Ep 3 remind me of some of the recent Star Wars shmultz visually (Andor withstanding).
« Last Edit: February 5, 2024, 06:19:55 pm by meady1981 »

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #31 on: February 5, 2024, 06:35:05 pm »
God this is dire. Pure chocolate box. The battle scenes look like video games. And not a cliche left unturned.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2024, 03:15:13 pm »
So the Elvis guy in the latest episode…

Spoiler
so is he dead? Bit weird the main character just vanished. Felt like one of those methods where they don’t show it, you ‘assume’ he’s dead and then oh look, they actually crash landed and he’s a pow in Belgium in the next episode.

[close]

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2024, 04:56:41 pm »
Spoiler
I expect he crashed somewhere and will prove irresistible to the local women.
[close]

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2024, 10:49:08 pm »
Worst episode yet. It’s really not good - how has it got 86% on rotten tomatoes?!? I was so excited for it after seeing some early 5/5 reviews. What am I missing? I don’t care about a single character. Maybe, the dog, but that’s it.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2024, 07:38:59 am »
It seems redundant to compare this now to BoB, it’s a completely different set of circumstances bar Hanks & Spielberg being involved. But the best thing about BoB was that each episode was almost a whole play in itself, with a beginning and end, from the viewpoint of a defined character-arc, within an overarching whole-series play. The hour episode felt like three hours. Masters of the air just feels like a collection of scenes shoved together that just whizz past. I actually don’t mind the acting, or dialogue, but I couldn’t care less about the lad going into London to get laid with a mysterious pissed off Polish women in front of a big CGI blitz scene. It just all feels like chat GPTs idea of a war story. Maybe ww2 war movies  have just been way oversaturated now.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 07:41:12 am by meady1981 »

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2024, 08:22:39 am »
I would honestly take Memphis Belle over this and it was fairly shit, if memory serves.

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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2024, 09:02:36 am »
Not sure if this is the right thread to resurrect for the new Masters of the Air series.

Watched 2 eps, was a bit worried it was straying into glossy Pear Harbour territory at first but it's settling in nicely and Im enjoying it.

One small gripe, why is anyone English always either a Cholmondley-Warner wanker or bumbling ruddy farmer in these.
My thoughts exactly.  And why, if there's a fight, do they make us look like queensbury rules chumps who then get knocked out with one punch?  Is there any need for this?
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2024, 10:52:01 am »
It seems redundant to compare this now to BoB, it’s a completely different set of circumstances bar Hanks & Spielberg being involved. But the best thing about BoB was that each episode was almost a whole play in itself, with a beginning and end, from the viewpoint of a defined character-arc, within an overarching whole-series play. The hour episode felt like three hours. Masters of the air just feels like a collection of scenes shoved together that just whizz past. I actually don’t mind the acting, or dialogue, but I couldn’t care less about the lad going into London to get laid with a mysterious pissed off Polish women in front of a big CGI blitz scene. It just all feels like chat GPTs idea of a war story. Maybe ww2 war movies  have just been way oversaturated now.

Pretty much my take. In Band of Brothers, the group who started at Currahee run through the series with some being lost and some recruits joining (Replacements). But they aren't just repeating the same battle, they deal with different scales of conflict, with different viewpoints, and for me, the main point is that in BoB they have agency. The last episode of Masters I watched kind of made the point for me. They are having a party because one crew has completed 25 missions and is going home and the general take on how to complete 25 missions is "be lucky".

Basically, if you're a crew member in a B-17 you do your job as best you can, but when fighters attack you or you fly through flak, it's luck and sheer weight of numbers that might get you through each mission.  If you have a successful mission it's actually boring from the bomber's point of view - the 'win' takes place thousands of feet below with tons of high explosive  blowing up munitions factories and civilian workers. So the drama is all about the flak/fighter/bomber interactions and things going pear-shaped.

With BoB, all I need to do is see the episode titles and it brings it all back: Currahee; Day of Days; Carentan; Replacements; Crossroads (possibly my favourite episode - I hear the sound of running boots and see the face of the young German soldier just from that one word title); Bastogne; The Breaking Point; The Last Patrol; Why We Fight; Points.
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Re: Masters of the Air - HBO Series
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2024, 05:20:16 pm »
My thoughts exactly.  And why, if there's a fight, do they make us look like queensbury rules chumps who then get knocked out with one punch?  Is there any need for this?

Same in 1923. One of the chinless English aristo wonders actually challenged someone to a duel. In 1923.
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