Topic: Why doesn't Gerard Houllier get more respect/acclaim?

[Ron]

We were playing terribly defensive in his last (?) season.
I remember a home game versus Spurs where we were defending with all before the midfield line.
We did win though, a Jari Litmanen penalty, 1-0.
But it was shameful to watch, that match.

[nicholasanthony]

[MagicB8all]

A more important topic should be why doesnt rafa get the credit or aclaim he deserves-.

would have won us the title .....eventually

Real Madrid coming in for Xabi was a massive loss though, made worse by the owners not allowing Rafa to find the replacement he wanted ... prime lesson in how to stunt a winning team

[rednich85]

while your analysis of a team that did qualify and went on to win it- 'shit'.

The football was shit. The team that went on to win the european cup was a different team. Different philosophy.

You'd know that.

[Mutton Geoff]

If it wasn't for a superhuman run by Gerrard towards the end dragging the club into the top 4 we wouldn't have been in it - wouldn't have deserved to either.

People always get it the wrong way round. Houllier doesn't deserve credit for CL05. It just means Rafa deserves even more credit for the mediocrity he had to deal with, and win with.

Mediocrity like Didi coming on at half time you mean?

 Nobody said it wasnt Rafa's team but some of you need reinvent history to defend Rafa when nobody attacked him!  It was his team, but some of his team were signed by Ged as it is with every manager since the game began, what is the problem with that statement?

 Sometimes I despair at this cult attitude towards Rafa in here, you are doing him no favours at all with this worship of him above all else within the club and its history!

[DangerScouse]

Anyone know what he ws doing on the pitch for City's post match celebrations? Is he involved there in some capacity?

[rednich85]

Mediocrity like Didi coming on at half time you mean?

 Nobody said it wasnt Rafa's team but some of you need reinvent history to defend Rafa when nobody attacked him!  It was his team, but some of his team were signed by Ged as it is with every manager since the game began, what is the problem with that statement?

 Sometimes I despair at this cult attitude towards Rafa in here, you are doing him no favours at all with this worship of him above all else within the club and its history!

LFC fans in cult worship of a manager.

No way!

Dalglish doesn't have cult worship. No siree.

[john_mac]

The football was shit. The team that went on to win the european cup was a different team. Different philosophy.

Funny, I remember Shankly talking about why the UEFA was the hardest to win i the 70s, becuase there was three or four teams from each of the top countries, often up and coming teams from the previous year. You had to be good over two years to win it, the first year to do well in your domestic league, the second to win the competition against a number of top teams from the top domestic leagues.

Pretty much if not more so like th Champions League in 2005. 

[Fitzy.]

He turned the team around very quickly in first full season

[john_mac]

LFC fans in cult worship of a manager.

No way!

Dalglish doesn't have cult worship. No siree.

He does have some c*nts who don't worship though

[KopMcGinty]

Already said i thought he was very good but I tell you one thing, a manager that had achieved what he did at LFC in 2001, at most other clubs would be regarded as their best ever or at least close to.  By our standards Ged (pre op at least) was a great manager but without a league title or a Big Ears in the bag; being great isnt' good enough to get out from the shade of Shankly, Paisley, Kenny and now Rafa.

Sorry to bring up recent ongoing events but the fact so many reds can have a negative opinion of the man shows just how high our sights are set when it comes to according some one 'legend' status.  We have 4 very hard acts for our next manager to follow.  I just hope we and the owners give who ever it ends up being the time to have a chance.

[MichaelA]

Fucking hell. By mid 2005 I think it's unlikely that Houllier would have had the momentum, energy and possibly the ability to take us to Istanbul. But it's possible. Equally, Rafa could not have taken that squad all the way to the Final without the legacy that was handed on by Ged. Although neither of them were capable of using Didi Hamann properly.

[john_mac]

Although neither of them were capable of using Didi Hamann properly.

Although he never did too badly in his Liverpool career, especially doing runners in Yokohama!

[firing squad]

I think we were building pretty nicely under him but the 2002 world cup transfers just screwed us.

sums it up.

[mikeb58]

Utter respect for the man, obviously it went a bit pear shaped towards the end, it does for most managers that's why they all move on.

The treble season was fantastic, can't see such an achievement again being made in a hurry by any prem team.

Trophy wise he it could a long while before an LFC manager tops his haul, that's the sort of legacy he rightly deserves in my opinion.

And yes, he does deserve some credit for the C/L win, he got us into the competition in the first place and 8 of his signings started the final.

If people that can't see past their total worship of Benitez to accept that....then that's their problem.

[rednich85]

Funny, I remember Shankly talking about why the UEFA was the hardest to win i the 70s, becuase there was three or four teams from each of the top countries, often up and coming teams from the previous year. You had to be good over two years to win it, the first year to do well in your domestic league, the second to win the competition against a number of top teams from the top domestic leagues.

Pretty much if not more so like th Champions League in 2005. 

You also had to be champions to enter.

I'm forever indebted to Gerard for giving me my first real taste of success as a red.

I just think that towards the end, it went bad. Very, very bad.

He does have some c*nts who don't worship though

This is true John. Too true.

[john_mac]

You also had to be champions to enter.

I'm forever indebted to Gerard for giving me my first real taste of success as a red.

I just think that towards the end, it went bad. Very, very bad.
This is true John. Too true.

Again, your short memory serves you wrong. So far as I am aware the league champions have never entered the UEFA Cup.

As i say if beating United in a final & qualifying for the champions league is very, ver bad, it's a level of badness most would bite your hand off for, right now!

[MassDriver]

Again, your short memory serves you wrong. So far as I am aware the league champions have never entered the UEFA Cup.

As i say if beating United in a final & qualifying for the champions league is very, ver bad, it's a level of badness most would bite your hand off for, right now!

afuckingmen.

[rednich85]

Again, your short memory serves you wrong. So far as I am aware the league champions have never entered the UEFA Cup.

As i say if beating United in a final & qualifying for the champions league is very, ver bad, it's a level of badness most would bite your hand off for, right now!

I was talking about entry to the european cup.

But you knew that.

[BobbyDavro]

I soured on him massively after Istanbul, and his repeated "I signed most of those players you know" statements.
It's a shame, he was really good for us until his heart op.  I remember at the start of 01/02 thinking he'd finally taken the final step of being solid allied with some flair.  His decision making in the summer of 02 I put down to his post-op state of mind: it set us back years.
There's plenty to have a pop at if you wanted to, but there's plenty of great days and nights if you want to as well.
I'll never forget the excitement of 01...sussing how to beat the mancs all the time....there's a lot to be thankful for.

I think similarly to the OP about Evans.  He was sidelined because he couldn't take us to the title, and we then took another 4 years before getting anywhere near where we were under him - 4th or 3rd every year with some marvellous football....we wouldn't mind being back there eh?

[TipTopKop]

We could have -and should have- done better under his charge.

Money was creeping into the game, but you could still make inroads and a decent title charge without the astronomical figures of today that are needed.

I don't put Robbie's departure on him as much as Thommo's, but his obsession with Heskey and persistence with certain players that were clearly not delivering was furstrating at times.

I guess by the time Souness and Evans left, people were already setting their expectations to a lower level than years past, not for me though, I just felt for the years he was there, we should have done something more.

[Coolie High]

Mediocrity like Didi coming on at half time you mean?

 Nobody said it wasnt Rafa's team but some of you need reinvent history to defend Rafa when nobody attacked him!  It was his team, but some of his team were signed by Ged as it is with every manager since the game began, what is the problem with that statement?

 Sometimes I despair at this cult attitude towards Rafa in here, you are doing him no favours at all with this worship of him above all else within the club and its history!

Spot On!

[Coolie High]

I remember his time fondly, and till this day he is still probably my favourite manager. Probably for no other reason than the fact he given my age he gave me my earliest memories of sucess as a supporter of this club, i can still remember the treble till this very day, to me it ranks pretty close to the Champions League win and i am forever thankful to Houllier for that. Also it was under him, where we truly moved forward as a 21st century club, a lot of his groundwork made it easier for the likes of Rafa to have success, and least we not forget when comparing league finishes the two managers records are pretty much similar, even though Rafa is held in a much higher regard by most.

[Coolie High]

We could have -and should have- done better under his charge.

Money was creeping into the game, but you could still make inroads and a decent title charge without the astronomical figures of today that are needed.

I don't put Robbie's departure on him as much as Thommo's, but his obsession with Heskey and persistence with certain players that were clearly not delivering was furstrating at times.

I guess by the time Souness and Evans left, people were already setting their expectations to a lower level than years past, not for me though, I just felt for the years he was there, we should have done something more.

United were still the biggest spenders during his time here, the likes of Leeds Arsenal and Newcastle as well were not afraid to pay big sums for players.

[Z e u s]

I think Houiler set the foundations for Benitez to flourish.

Before Houiller took over we were a mess.

- Any cross that came into our box, the defense couldn't header it away.  Our defense were awful.
- Off the pitch we had the spice boy image and we were a joke.
- We hadn't won a trophy for ages.

Houiller took over and made us far more professional.  He changed the diet and players couldn't get away with drinking etc.

He bought Westerveld, Hamann, Hyypia and Henchoz and over night we went from having an awful defense to one of the best in Europe.

He bought back trophies to the club.

Houiller did the revolution at the club.  Benitez built on it and we evolved after, but Houiller set the foundations and is not appreciated enough IMO.

[BobbyDavro]

See it's that kind of post Zeus that fucks me off.

We won a trophy in 95 under Roy, got to the FA Cup final in 96 (and were favourites against United), and were in the hunt for the title every year until the clocks went forward.
There were problems, of course there were, but were they really worse than we had in the summer of 04?  Hyppia and Hamann in Roy's team and we'd have been champions.  Each manager lives or dies by his signings....Roy wasn't too good on the defensive side, Ged wasn't too hot on the attacking side.
04 it was more about "no creativity...no idea what to do in the final third...backs against the wall hope to hit them on the break" - both Evans and Houllier finished on sour notes.

[WhiteHeat]

I forgot a few things. G-wiz.

Doesn't change the fact the football under Houllier was shit.

You have great recollection skills. Well in.

His last season we were dire. Everton away and Birmingham away apart, the football was pretty awful. We did win at Old Trafford a few weeks before the end, but they were on the beach almost. A memory I have was our timid UEFA Cup exit to Marseille, which was the first time Drogba made his presence known.

That said, 00-01 and 01-02 were superb seasons and at least we did pick up a cup in 02-03 despite the ordinary league form.

[Z e u s]

See it's that kind of post Zeus that fucks me off.

We won a trophy in 95 under Roy, got to the FA Cup final in 96 (and were favourites against United), and were in the hunt for the title every year until the clocks went forward.
There were problems, of course there were, but were they really worse than we had in the summer of 04?  Hyppia and Hamann in Roy's team and we'd have been champions.  Each manager lives or dies by his signings....Roy wasn't too good on the defensive side, Ged wasn't too hot on the attacking side.
04 it was more about "no creativity...no idea what to do in the final third...backs against the wall hope to hit them on the break" - both Evans and Houllier finished on sour notes.

Didn't we have the best defensive record one season under Evans? 

[Coolie High]

See it's that kind of post Zeus that fucks me off.

We won a trophy in 95 under Roy, got to the FA Cup final in 96 (and were favourites against United), and were in the hunt for the title every year until the clocks went forward.
There were problems, of course there were, but were they really worse than we had in the summer of 04?  Hyppia and Hamann in Roy's team and we'd have been champions.  Each manager lives or dies by his signings....Roy wasn't too good on the defensive side, Ged wasn't too hot on the attacking side.
04 it was more about "no creativity...no idea what to do in the final third...backs against the wall hope to hit them on the break" - both Evans and Houllier finished on sour notes.

And it was exactly the same in Benitez last season.

[Macphisto80]

And it was exactly the same in Benitez last season.

Was it really? Do you forget we were skint, had two massive c*nts running us and were taking us down to a Leeds level of existence?

[john_mac]

Out of interest does anybody think that Shankly takes any credit for us winning the European Cup in 1977?

I do. Be clear, I'm not comparing Houllier to Shankly in any way shape or form, but I am saying that Houllier turned the proffessional outlook of the club, signed players of the calibre of Hamman, Hyppia and Finnan (and OK Baros, Traore & Cisse), also gave the likes of Gerrard his head and by any measure helped develop Jamie Carragher.

Yes Rafa Benitez deserves every credit in the world for winning the European Cup with what he had at his disposal but Gerard did play a role, however minor you may feel that was, in building the platform from which it was won.

[drpepe]

I loved Houllier,

Though I wish he'd kept some of his more bitter comments to himself since leaving the Club, the text message and the references to Istanbul being his achievement were distasteful but he was the first Liverpool manager I properly knew and I experienced some great memories with him.

Sometimes it's time for managers to go and he and his side were starting to unravel towards the end, and it was time for a change at the Club but he dragged us kicking and screaming into the modern game, had that incredible season in 2001, and had Liverpool in his heart.

Don't understand how anyone has any bitterness with regards to seeling Fowler. In fact his autobiography in relation to their feud reflects poorly on Robbie, not Gerard. We got a good amount of money for a player who was not as effective as he had once been.

Allez, Allez.

yep, i have always thought that.

I was never concerned that we would suffer from selling fowler- he was in obvious decline.

[Coolie High]

Was it really? Do you forget we were skint, had two massive c*nts running us and were taking us down to a Leeds level of existence?

The football played and the position we finished was.

[Hazell]

Can this not turn into a Rafa thread. I am aware people have axes to grind one way or another but can this remain about Ged and what he did for us?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Out of interest does anybody think that Shankly takes any credit for us winning the European Cup in 1977?

I do. Be clear, I'm not comparing Houllier to Shankly in any way shape or form, but I am saying that Houllier turned the proffessional outlook of the club, signed players of the calibre of Hamman, Hyppia and Finnan (and OK Baros, Traore & Cisse), also gave the likes of Gerrard his head and by any measure helped develop Jamie Carragher.

Yes Rafa Benitez deserves every credit in the world for winning the European Cup with what he had at his disposal but Gerard did play a role, however minor you may feel that was, in building the platform from which it was won.

There's a radio broadcast somewhere from 1977 on the net where the commentator starts talking to Shanks who was somewhere around, giving Shanks the compliment of building the team that had just won, and Shanks speaks in terms of "We" and "our planning" that led to the success, as if he were still manager.

That's the thing that gets me about the cult of personality surrounding our managers: all of the good to great ones were here because they loved the club (and I'd include Evans in that). Souness was about Souness - even as a player he was all about himself. Hodgson was all about the England job. But from Shanks to Paisley to Fagan to Kenny I to Evans to Ged to Rafa to Kenny II - all of these managers loved the club and the supporters, and any discussion that talks one manager up over another instead of observing their positive impacts on the club and their obvious love for the people who make the club (the fans) is driven by internal territorialism rather than external territorialism (instead of saying "Rafa was better than Ged" or "Ged should get credit for Istanbul", surely the sentiment should be to look outwards at other clubs and say "Look at all the great managers WE have!")

[MassDriver]

There's a radio broadcast somewhere from 1977 on the net where the commentator starts talking to Shanks who was somewhere around, giving Shanks the compliment of building the team that had just won, and Shanks speaks in terms of "We" and "our planning" that led to the success, as if he were still manager.

That's the thing that gets me about the cult of personality surrounding our managers: all of the good to great ones were here because they loved the club (and I'd include Evans in that). Souness was about Souness - even as a player he was all about himself. Hodgson was all about the England job. But from Shanks to Paisley to Fagan to Kenny I to Evans to Ged to Rafa to Kenny II - all of these managers loved the club and the supporters, and any discussion that talks one manager up over another instead of observing their positive impacts on the club and their obvious love for the people who make the club (the fans) is driven by internal territorialism rather than external territorialism (instead of saying "Rafa was better than Ged" or "Ged should get credit for Istanbul", surely the sentiment should be to look outwards at other clubs and say "Look at all the great managers WE have!")

Brilliant post. 

[thereader]

What was that joint manager stuff at the start of his time all about anyway?

[redannie]

Anyone know what he ws doing on the pitch for City's post match celebrations? Is he involved there in some capacity?

He works for French TV

[Cormack Snr]

You also had to be champions to enter.

I'm forever indebted to Gerard for giving me my first real taste of success as a red.

I just think that towards the end, it went bad. Very, very bad.
This is true John. Too true.

Gerard gave you your first taste of success, I always had you down as an auld c*nt.

[zimmie'5555]

What was that joint manager stuff at the start of his time all about anyway?

That was absurd. It was almost as though nobody had the heart to tell Roy Evans that we wanted to bring in a new manager.