Topic: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread

[Corkboy]

I do the same mate, read a bad first line then skip straight to the reply box

Depending on the poster, I might not even read the first line.

[Billy The Kid]

Carl I'm not going to pull you on anything anymore

You're going to drink no matter what I say

[Sir Harvest Fields]

Im going to drink if thats what im happy with. If i get to a point im uncertain then i will re-evaluate my situation. There are stats etc that can cover a whole plethora of outcomes and situations with regards to my drinking but im working on the ' being happy' part first. I need to be good with myself imo before i can work on other areas. Im not wasted 24/7 anymore, im working hard, im settled and when i feel its time ill move on and work on another aspect of my life, which in turn could lead to a more positive outlook on maybe another aspect in my life. Its a work in progress and its one i am working hard on. Im not kidding myself as to the task in hand, you may scoff but i can do no more than try.

[AndyInVA]

Im going to drink if thats what im happy with. If i get to a point im uncertain then i will re-evaluate my situation. There are stats etc that can cover a whole plethora of outcomes and situations with regards to my drinking but im working on the ' being happy' part first. I need to be good with myself imo before i can work on other areas. Im not wasted 24/7 anymore, im working hard, im settled and when i feel its time ill move on and work on another aspect of my life, which in turn could lead to a more positive outlook on maybe another aspect in my life. Its a work in progress and its one i am working hard on. Im not kidding myself as to the task in hand, you may scoff but i can do no more than try.

I like this post.

Billy has done awesome things in his life and more power to him.

Im with Carl and just dont buy that total abstinence is the only way for all people. I think its the best way for most people but I don't accept it has to be that way for everyone. I havnt been massively smashed in 2013 but I do have anything from 0 to 2 beers to one bottle of wine if Im on my own at home. I dont feel the amount I drink has had any negative impacts in my life for 2013. When Im not on my own i dont drnk and its easy.

Well done Carl.

[Sir Harvest Fields]

I dont disagree with any of Billys advice, its good advice. I maybe one step from total fuckup but right now im in a place where im happy. I cant say total abstinence is the only answer as there are many answers out there , im finding one that suits me. If one doesnt then ill find another.

[Billy The Kid]

One thing you should all bear in mind is this:

If you tell an alcoholic who is still drinking, to do what he feels is best for him, then he will invariably keep drinking. Its the nature of the addict

Another thing:

Addicts who say that they'll quit at some point in the future are usually the ones who unintentionally drink themselves to death

[Red Genius]

Not had a drink since last weekend, off to catch a flight to Portugal tomorrow to spend some time with the folks, eat up some late calendar sun. Set myself a little routine already, early starts with a number of lengths in the pool then breakfast, then either a run or a bike ride / bit of tennis with the old man.

I'm tackling it like free rehab, because i just need to get away from my own influence install some barriers and with some support along the way get my head back into a happy place. It's too convenient to just turn to beer to block out whatevers going on in my head, deal with the problems and get the fuck on with my life without my good old mate 'alcohol' that really aint much of a mate. 

[Billy The Kid]

with some support along the way

This is key. Get all the support you can. If you try to do it all on your own you'll probably fail.

Seems like you're making good inroads though. Well done

[Mr Dilkington]

Not had a drink since last weekend, off to catch a flight to Portugal tomorrow to spend some time with the folks, eat up some late calendar sun. Set myself a little routine already, early starts with a number of lengths in the pool then breakfast, then either a run or a bike ride / bit of tennis with the old man.

I'm tackling it like free rehab, because i just need to get away from my own influence install some barriers and with some support along the way get my head back into a happy place. It's too convenient to just turn to beer to block out whatevers going on in my head, deal with the problems and get the fuck on with my life without my good old mate 'alcohol' that really aint much of a mate.

Never thought a post on an internet forum would make me proud, but that there just did.

Absolutely chuffed for you mate - keep at it.

[AndyInVA]

Addicts who say that they'll quit at some point in the future are usually the ones who unintentionally drink themselves to death

How about this

I am an addict but i have no real intention of ever quitting. I have quit hard liquor and I have not had any since I quit totally about five years but then went back on beer and wine about a year ago. I have quit binge drinking and only drink moderately in 2013.

Alcohol is no longer a negative force in my life.

Personally, I feel if you quit for almost three years without any relapse it may change how booze affects you and your mental relationship with it.

You may be the kind of person who falls into a deep pit after the first sip or you may not.

But frankly, I strongly feel that if alcohol is a negative force in your life and you want to quit you should absolutely go cold turkey for two years to even give yourself a fighting chance of ever having a normal drink again

but Billy is right

its a lot easier to just totally QUIT

and stay quit

to make the decision should go back should be made from a position of long term sobriety and abstinence

[Tepid water]

When you say moderate, how much is that?

[Johnnyboy1973]

.

Unless time is moving a lot quicker for me these days I remember not that long ago you being arrested by the police, relationship splitting etc. You followed it up a few days later, by telling us how Billy used to irritate you by telling you that you had to quit altogether and then went on to say, guess what, he was right and you were returning to AA.

Unless, I am dreaming and this never happened or it did, but it is no longer or relevance.

EDIT: Found it

.

I am sure you can understand my negativity when you said that, only in January, but seem to be saying the opposite nine months later.

[Billy The Kid]

Alcohol is no longer a negative force in my life.

Really?

[Sir Harvest Fields]

Really?

Whats to say it isnt?

[blert596]

Confusing me this with Andy. And to an extent you as well karl I suppose.

Is it a conscious decision to say "well, I'm happy enough I know I'm fine still drinking". Or is it the addiction disguising itself as though you're making the decision to keep feeding it?

It's hard for me to work out why it would be a conscious decision to keep feeding it when you have all seen first hand what it's done to you and others around you.

Sorry if that sounds a little patronising, its certainly not meant to be. Never having been there I cant get my head round it.

[Billy The Kid]

Whats to say it isnt?

Why don't we just call a spade a spade and say it like it is?

[Billy The Kid]

It's hard for me to work out why it would be a conscious decision to keep feeding it when you have all seen first hand what it's done to you and others around you.

Sorry if that sounds a little patronising, its certainly not meant to be. Never having been there I cant get my head round it.

Its nothing to worry over. They're just waiting for their relationship with alcohol to return to normal and everything will be rosy again

It should happen any day now

[Corkboy]

Its nothing to worry over. They're just waiting for their relationship with alcohol to return to normal and everything will be rosy again

It should happen any day now

Whereas you have front row seats for their upcoming crash and burn, which should also happen any day now.

Death and taxes, folks. Anything else is a matter of probability only. None of you can say with any certainty whether SHF or Andy will fall back or thrive or just sort of bumble along. But both of them seem to be good at the moment, so one would have thought that the classy thing to do would be to wish them well.

[cowtownred]

Whereas you have front row seats for their upcoming crash and burn, which should also happen any day now.

Death and taxes, folks. Anything else is a matter of probability only. None of you can say with any certainty whether SHF or Andy will fall back or thrive or just sort of bumble along. But both of them seem to be good at the moment, so one would have thought that the classy thing to do would be to wish them well.

I'm with you Corkboy.

[Billy The Kid]

None of you can say with any certainty whether SHF or Andy will fall back or thrive or just sort of bumble along.

With respect sir, I can say it with a fair amount of certainty. I too am an alcoholic. I know the traits. I know the thought patterns. I know the addicts way of thinking. I know the behavior and way of living. I've done it myself. I did it for years. I also interact with other alcoholics everyday of my life. I listen to them talk at great length about all of the aforementioned. There's a definite correlation. The trends are all the same. There is (weather you want to acknowledge it or not) a significant amount of certainty in what I've said

When alcoholics chose to continue drinking, the percentage of them who eventually end up destroying their lives is quiet large. Its the vast vast majority. We're not talking about 50/50 numbers here. Or random cases. We're talking about a percentage that's in the high 90's. So If you still want to question the "certainty" of what I say in this thread then go ahead. But I can assure you I'm far better versed on this stuff than you are. And not because I take pleasure in listening to myself harp on. Its because I need to know about it in order to save myself from dying from it

This is a rather cunning disease. So cunning that it can cause people who are unfortunate enough to suffer from it, to unintentionally kill themselves. I've been trying to tell that to Carl for over 2 years now. I've been trying to help him. Just like I did with Paul. I did all I could to help him. And just like I do with Andy. I may be harsh with them from time to time, but its only because I genuinely want to see them getting on the straight and narrow. Its a tragic fucking disease man. The last thing I want is "front row seats" to see any person fuck their lives up. I can assure you of that. Nor do I enjoy saying "I told you so".

[Sir Harvest Fields]

I see where you are coming from Billy and i totally understand your viewpoint. What i dont get is why, just one small little person like me or Andy etc , can buck the stats you use and maybe have a happier relationship with drinking. There is no certainty in all this. Total abstinence is your thing, that works for you and thats great. No matter what i say you will just keep saying we will crash and burn in a pit of fire of our own making.

Its not all about alcohol, its all the little things that made you turn to alcohol. The things i am working hard on so that i can in turn work on other aspects of my life. Ive said it before in here that i have to be happy with myself to start on other areas of my life.

Thing is, if i was abstinent , there would be a queue of people waiting for me to do a barrel roll off the wagon and jump in a fire. That day MAY never come but it MAY do. Damned if i do, damned if i dont. Always one drink away from a fuck up, tee-total or not. You can talk about what it does to peoples lives and ive seen it also so i know, i also know that i tread a very fine line, but its just as fine as an abstinent one. Just my opinion and you can drop every stat onto the page to ' prove ' me wrong but i am determined to try. 

Im not destined to failure mate , i am in charge of my destiny and ive come to realise that im not the person i was, im still a twat but im a happy twat that is trying to lead a more ' normal ' exsistence with alcohol. 
There is nothing to say i will succeed, there is also nothing to say i wont, and stats mean nothing. I am the stat that matters , my stats are what are important to my struggles. No one elses.


Carl.

[libby_lfc]

You do what works for you Carl.

We can all have our opinions, and we can look at the stats, but they don't predict how you will end up. They give an idea, but nothing is set in stone.

I've seen you evolve in this thread, and if, like you said, you're identifying and changing the behaviours and little things that make you turn to alcohol, then good for you, and I think you can do it.

If not, we're here.

All you can do is try. It's something you'll battle for the rest of your life, and if not going completely off the booze is how you want to do it, and makes it that bit easier for you, then go for it.

I've always admired you for never giving up the battle.

[AndyInVA]

Billy is nothing but consistent and I totally support his opinion to be as harsh as he wants with me or anyone else in this thread.

I dont feel Billy wants to see anyone crash and burn, its just a phrase he used to try and spell shit out for those who cant see it.

I read Billys post and on some level I do agree. I can see it coming.

Right now I have something to live for. I have my daughter around me and giving her a stable upbringing is vital to me.

But if I look a long way into the horizon, I can see something that its not too appealing.

Once she has grown up and left home and I am living off some investments that hopefully come good, then I can see myself as a lonely old man with nothing to make me happy but booze. I know that I am not off booze for good, but for right now I am able to turn it on and off with ease.

[Corkboy]

With respect sir, I can say it with a fair amount of certainty.

I know you're not being a dick, Billy, and I know you mean well. I also know you've been through the wringer and have that experience. But there is no certainty, about anything. Perhaps you should try to accept that.

[Billy The Kid]

But there is no certainty, about anything. Perhaps you should try to accept that.

I don't want to pick an argument with you cb. I've read enough of your posts over the years to know that you're one of the more enlightened posters on here. I generally find myself agreeing with you on a lot of topics. But in this case, I think you're over simplifying something without fully appreciating its severity. Your comment about there being no certainty in anything is slightly reductionist, especially when said in a context such as this one. I.E a discussion about a disease as severe as alcoholism.

Lets say you stood at the top of an AA room, in front of countless people, all trying their utmost to repair their lives, in the wake of enduring years of suffering at the hands of alcoholism

And lets say you repeated your assertion that there is no certainty in anything.

What would you do if one of them raised their hand and asked "does that mean that there is no certainty that I'll return to ruining my life if I pick up a drink today?"

How would you answer that one? I'm just curious. What advice would you give him?

[Corkboy]

Lets say you stood at the top of an AA room, in front of countless people, all trying their utmost to repair their lives, in the wake of enduring years of suffering at the hands of alcoholism

And lets say you repeated your assertion that there is no certainty in anything.

What would you do if one of them raised their hand and asked "does that mean that there is no certainty that I'll return to ruining my life if I pick up a drink today?"

How would you answer that one?

First off, let's get rid of the false analogy. This thread is not an AA meeting. I would have no business at one, I'm a stone cold atheist for a start, so they can get fucked with that higher power shit.

I'll answer it anyway, if you like. The same. Honestly, and probably a bit too literally. There is no certainty in such things, this is a matter of fact. There are outliers and exceptions in every domain of human behaviour. I know drinkers, serious drinkers, have done all my life. It's a spectrum. Some people can do it without a problem (other than health), some can do it and be successful but are utter pricks to live with, some get lost in it and wither while functioning with frightening normality. Some die, some thrive. I know people who have been mildly pickled for fifty successful years. I used to know people who were drunk all the time and then killed themselves.

You're not the only kind of drinker there is, Billy, and nor are the people who go to AA meetings.

[Billy The Kid]

I'm a stone cold atheist for a start, so they can get fucked with that higher power shit.

I stopped reading after that. I'll read the rest of your post tomorrow. But for now I'm done

Fucking hell lad. I know you like a pop at religion, but that is a horrendous statement to come out with

And I say that to you as someone who doesn't believe in a god either

I'm honestly gobsmacked at what you've just said there

[Sir Harvest Fields]

Id answer it the same. There is no certainties in anything in life apart from death. All we can do is try but to say something is certain with regards to this disease is wrong. Nothing is certain, its that simple.


You hold a lot of faith in AA Billy , and that has worked for countless people and will continue to do so. Other methods will work for others. To discount any other method is unfair. Its about finding what works for certain individuals and their current circumstances and there relationship with alcohol.


What is this ' higher power ' that Corkboy refers to? Is it something used at an AA meeting? Does it imply God or something. Genuine question.

[Corkboy]

What is this ' higher power ' that Corkboy refers to? Is it something used at an AA meeting? Does it imply God or something. Genuine question.

Yes, it's part of the AA programme.

"The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power."

"Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Power

[Sir Harvest Fields]

Except in a few cases?

So its possible then for someone to do this without a higher power?

[Tepid water]

Except in a few cases?

So its possible then for someone to do this without a higher power?

From what I have read, people can be very flexible about the higher power.
It can just be love for your family, your personal happiness, that sort of thing (not sure if that's the intention, but that's how I've read people have interpreted it).

[Billy The Kid]

What is this ' higher power ' that Corkboy refers to? Is it something used at an AA meeting? Does it imply God or something. Genuine question.

Yes, the turning to a "higher power" is part of the AA recovery program. However it does not imply the existence of any god whatsoever. AA is also NOT associated with any religion whatsoever.

Yes, it's part of the AA programme.

"The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power."

"Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Power

Corkboy, again I respond to you with respect, but your wading in on something that you clearly know very little about. Your making a gross and ill-informed assumption that a higher power (as perceived in AA) equates to a god of some sort, that is associated with a religion of some sort. You are wrong sir. Very very wrong. You've already pointed out that you would have no business at an AA meeting. So how could you possibly be in any position to comment on what the higher power is, or is meant to be perceived as? Let alone comment on it with any degree of true understanding? Nothing you've posted from your 'copy and paste' trip to wiki even remotely backs up your claim.

I would have no business at one, I'm a stone cold atheist for a start, so they can get fucked with that higher power shit.

That's an absolute whopper of a statement. Bizarre beyond belief. And tells me you really don't know what you're talking about. I can only assume that you're of the notion that alcoholics who attend AA are religious. And that the "higher power shit" is rooted in the belief of a biblical god of some sort. I don't know if you're aware, but AA doesn't associate itself with any religion whatsoever. It never has done to the best of my knowledge. Obviously there are some members who do have religious beliefs. That's their prerogative.

But many others don't hold those kind of beliefs. I'm not religious. I don't believe in gods of any name, shape or form. I'm willing to guess there are millions of others just like me. AA isn't exclusive to god believers mate. Alcoholism is a disease that can fuck up anyone who is unfortunate enough to suffer from it. Including atheists like me. Should I get fucked also? For believing in "higher power shit'? Or are you sure this isn't a case of you talking about something that in truth, you know nothing about?

Hence I'd respectfully suggest that you perhaps think that one through again before you go dismissing an organization (that's made of people merely trying to help each other) as one that can "get fucked" with their "higher power shit". On the lame assumption that their beliefs or tools for recovery contradict your position as an atheist.  People in AA are there because they suffer from a very dangerous disease. Not because its a place of prayer or worship. I know you love a dig at religion from time to time, but AA isn't church sir. 


 

[Billy The Kid]

From what I have read, people can be very flexible about the higher power.
It can just be love for your family, your personal happiness, that sort of thing (not sure if that's the intention, but that's how I've read people have interpreted it).

Correct

For me, the "power greater than" is the sober me. The "myself" part is the addict in me.

So in other words, the sober me is a higher power than the addict me

Notice I didn't mention god once. Or religion for that matter

[Billy The Kid]

You hold a lot of faith in AA Billy , and that has worked for countless people and will continue to do so. Other methods will work for others. To discount any other method is unfair. Its about finding what works for certain individuals and their current circumstances and there relationship with alcohol.

To tell you the truth Carl. I haven't been to AA in quiet a while. I took the recovery tools that they offer, and applied them on my own. Others prefer to attend regularly as it helps them to maintain their recovery. So yes, you are indeed correct. Different methods work for different people. I certainly don't discount other methods, so long as they work and help maintain sobriety. And that is the key point. Being able to maintain it

There are a lot of recovering addicts like me who are not regular attendee's of AA. You don't have to attend regularly in order to fully understand this disease. You can gain a lot of insight from simply reading, or just talking to others who are in recovery. A quick look back at ones time of excessive usage will also bring a wealth of further understanding. If you revise your behavior and actions throughout your time of usage, you will notice that it is glaringly apparent that this disease has a plethora of common and reoccurring traits amongst the majority of sufferers

Which leads me back to my initial astonishment at some of the phrases being branded about in here. Especially ones like "no certainties about anything". Whilst it may be true that there are exceptions to the rule from time to time, the overwhelming amount of evidence on the contrary, would strongly suggest that that is a dangerously flippant statement to make. Especially when said in reference to a disease as perilous as alcoholism. And the reason I use the word dangerous, is because of the overwhelming number of tragic cases where people have reverted to old habits, and ended up destroying their lives because of the cunning nature of this addiction. Sure, there may be no certainties, but alcoholism isn't something you want to take a risk with, is it? Considering the well known, and often tragic dangers of it. Which if you check in detail, are worryingly common

Its a bit like putting Gary Glitter in a kids pool unsupervised, and trying to reassure them that he wont fuck one of them, on the basis that there are no certainties in life. I mean, I wouldn't be inclined to jump in the pool and take the risk. In much the same way I wouldn't trust myself with a drink in my hand. If you catch my drift?

[Sir Harvest Fields]

Indeed i do Billy, and that was a great post. I dont think anyone is taking this disease flippantly but i totally understand your concerns. It is a massive risk to keep drinking and think i/we have it under control as it is not that simple. I also understand the evidence that you offer supports your fears and arguments and i respect that. What i must say is that things change, mental states, lifestyles,priorities etc that can help someone lead a more ' normal ' association with alcohol. Get out of the mindset that made one think they needed that drink both physically and mentally.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

What i must say is that things change, mental states, lifestyles,priorities etc that can help someone lead a more ' normal ' association with alcohol. Get out of the mindset that made one think they needed that drink both physically and mentally.

For me this is the danger though. You're relying on stability in the rest of your life to prop up your control of your alcohol. The sad fact is that life has a habit of throwing you curveballs through no fault of your own. Even where they have no problem whatsoever with alcohol people lose jobs or get ill, relationships break down etc etc. Do you think you could continue to drink safely if your current stable situation was to change in some way?

Andy is in the same boat and has even said explicitly that he fears that when his daughter leaves home his alcohol use will escalate.

It may be being co-opted by the Tories recently but the old JFK quote "The time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining" seems quite appropriate here.

[Corkboy]

Yes, the turning to a "higher power" is part of the AA recovery program. However it does not imply the existence of any god whatsoever. AA is also NOT associated with any religion whatsoever.

Corkboy, again I respond to you with respect, but your wading in on something that you clearly know very little about. Your making a gross and ill-informed assumption that a higher power (as perceived in AA) equates to a god of some sort, that is associated with a religion of some sort.

I'm not. I realise many people do look for a god as a higher power but many don't. It clearly is a reference to something supernatural ("nor any other human being") but I know people use it their own way. There are pages and pages on the web of agnostics and atheists discussing the efficacy of AA and the concept of higher power. I don't understand the concept of a higher power at all, it just doesn't work for me. If it works for you and your sober self being the higher power, fine. There is no such thing as a second you, but as I said if it works for you, great. Not for me, though. Being hyper rational will do that to you. I simply cannot conceive of a higher power, in any form.

I also don't agree with the concept of a higher power in AA because of what it stands for. I don't agree with the statement I copypasted off wiki because it seems like victim bullshit to me. Nobody is powerless. I don't like the concept of handing over your will and accepting powerlessness. Alcoholism is a behavioural disorder, I don't think it's helpful to characterise recovery in those terms.

But for what it's worth, I regret my choice of words. My opinions on AA are entirely personal and if it works for other people, then I shouldn't tell them to get fucked. Sorry.

[Sir Harvest Fields]

Just to say, ive got engaged to my girlfriend. Seemed the right thing to do. We can change...

[Red Genius]

Just to say, ive got engaged to my girlfriend. Seemed the right thing to do. We can change...

Congrats Carl!! Really pleased for you.

[Tepid water]

Just to say, ive got engaged to my girlfriend. Seemed the right thing to do. We can change...

Fantastic news!!

Congratulations mate.  You really should start a thread to shout it out!