Author Topic: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?  (Read 17992 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Clearly there were a number of factors at work in the Premiership 'failure' last season: a new overseas coach inheriting a mixed collection of players and struggling to find a balance suitable for the hurly-burly of the English game; the unprecedented injury list that derailed many of his best efforts; the litany of appalling refereeing decisions in the first half of the season (and they were bad), and so on.

   The sale of 'steady-but-unspectacular' players like Heskey and Murphy added to the problems, as I've suggested before: instead of the steadiness of those two seasoned pros, there were overseas players trying to settle in. It turned out that Fernando Morientes settling into the English game wasn't even as effective as Emile Heskey in an average season –– but of course, once settled, we should see Morientes prove why he's one of the best strikers around, and a far better option than the big Leicester-born man. That's the nature of transitional seasons.

   But I can't help drawing the conclusion that it was the absence of one player who cost Liverpool between 10-20 points: Michael Owen. A great goalkeeper and a great goalscorer can each be worth that many points if they are at the top of their game.

    The football, and the approach play, was far better last season than it had been since 2002 (and arguably before then, too). Often there just wasn't a striker capable of putting the chances away –– although at times there were not fit strikers, full stop.

   The Reds suffered 14 league defeats, but 11 were by just a single goal. A further seven games were drawn. Turning those defeats into draws, and those draws into victories, required just a single goal each time.

   That's 18 goals that could have won Liverpool a further 25 points. Of course, as hypothetical as it all is, even Owen wouldn't have been able to score in all of those games. And his style is more suited to two up front, whereas Rafa prefers the 4-2-3-1 formation. But Owen's reliability over the course of a season would have been very beneficial to Benítez.

   Michael Owen was the man who, for a number of years, had turned poor team performances into points, and good team performances into comfortable victories. Djibril Cissé had been the very same man for Auxerre –– a 30-goal-a-season finisher –– but he was struggling to adapt to English football when his leg broke; his performance against Aston Villa in May suggested he had finally come to terms with how the game works over here. But his season was a virtual write-off.

   As a self-confessed Milan Baros fan, I have to admit defeat on the argument of his effectiveness. I really felt that when given a regular start he'd provide 25-goals. By December he was nearly halfway there. When Cissé was suddenly injured, and it was just down to Milan, he delivered.

   But then two things happened. First, Baros picked up an Owenesque hamstring injury. He did so immediately after scoring his first hat-trick for the Reds, and suddenly his building momentum had the rug pulled from underneath it. He came back too soon, rushed back into action by a desperate Benítez, and struggled in games; his confidence quickly evanesced.

   Next, Fernando Morientes arrived. Given the Czech's goalscoring record from then onwards, it must have undermined Baros, and on top of this, the two failed to strike up an understanding. (No shame in that, as these things rarely click instantaneously.) Baros' place in the side wasn't assured, and then he got sent off against Everton. While Owen had barren runs, two goals in six months –– the tally Baros managed in the second half of the season (albeit with six weeks out injured) –– wasn't a statistic associated with the ex-No.10. Owen might go seven or eight games without a goal, then get nine in his next nine.

   Baros is a great individual striker, but he is clearly difficult to play alongside. I remain a big fan, and his clever running off the ball led to the crucial Champions League goals against Chelsea and AC Milan (the third was the result of his delicate flick to Gerrard). But after two seasons as a bit-part player, his third –– with Owen in Madrid –– left as many nagging doubts as the two when he was under-utilised. I expected conclusive proof that he was the right man. Nine league goals from open play was not good enough.


Depressing?

It may depress many that the Reds may be going from Owen to Baros to Crouch in just two summers. But it's the bigger picture that counts.

   The reaction to the possible signing of Crouch has astounded me –– to the point where I am still defending the concept of signing such a player.

   A year ago I would have felt the same as the naysayers. But some players come of age a little later than others, and Crouch appears to be doing that. Often it's down to finally finding a manager who knows how to use him (so not Graham Taylor at Aston Villa, when Crouch was just 21), and who puts his faith in him. Crouch is one of those players who sticks out like a sore thumb if he does something wrong. He's easy to mock, so opposing fans do so.

   Benítez is a canny operator. He knows what he needs. For starters, Peter Crouch is able to hold the ball up. As a tall striker, he's difficult to mark –– his ungainly style actually works in his favour, as he's not easy for a defender to 'read'. He has excellent control and quick feet. Holding the ball up is very important if you have a selection of attacking midfielders, or a second striker, all hoping to join play. All of these things have been noted by Rafa's scouts, Sven Goran Eriksson's scouts, and the scouts at many other clubs. Just not by Joe Public.

   I'd be very surprised if Crouch ever had a 25-goal season, or managed to get close to 20 on a regular basis –– although his league record of 51 goals from 132 starts is very respectable. But to me he looks like the kind of player who others will thrive around, especially quick players like Cissé, small players like Luis Garcia and Sinama-Pongolle, and attacking midfielders like Gerrard. I could even see Cissé or Sinama-Pongolle playing in a role as a right-winger-cum-striker, as one of the three players playing just off of the target man.

   Crouch may not be a truly outstanding header of the ball –– like Morientes –– but he's still good in the air, and being so tall, that can count for a lot. He is very dangerous in the air –– let's not start arguing otherwise. Especially as a target man.

   Morientes is a superb attacker of crosses, but I now realise that he's not a target man –– as we were warned. El Moro drops deep to link play, and isn't actually the greatest at playing as the furthest player forward and winning flick-ons against taller defenders. His strength is timing headers by attacking the ball played in from the flanks. A giant alongside him, for instance, would take care of the opposition's tallest centre back. More freedom for Morientes to get headers on goal.

   Crouch is not particularly quick, but he's not slow either. He can dribble past players, as he showed against Everton last season, when he went on a mazy run. He is not the player he is caricatured to be. Reds need to start trusting their manager on this one.

   Benítez likes his 'possibilities', his options. Crouch gives him that. With forwards like Cissé, Morientes, Crouch, Luis Garcia and Sinama-Pongolle (plus Kewell, if he gets fit and finally proves himself), you have every base covered, to use baseball parlance. You can set your team out to play in about 15 different ways by mixing and matching that lot. From those you have extreme pace, strength, skill, unprecedented height, holding-up skills and heading ability, plus proven goalscorers.
   
   Remember: at Valencia last season, the defence asked their new boss, Claudio Ranieri, how he wanted them to defend. "As you did last year under Benítez", said the Italian. The reply came, "But we had five different ways of defending, depending on how the opposition set out their stall." Quick-witted and thinking on his feet, the Italian said "Oh...".

   Possibilities. Options. Alternatives. It gives your team the chance to exceed the sum of its parts. As a random example, Jermaine Defoe might be a better player than Crouch, but he wouldn't provide an alternative to a fit Cissé.


Not good enough

I keep hearing that Crouch is 'not good enough to play in a title-winning side'. Frankly, this is an illogical argument. It's the sum of eleven parts that matters; not one individual. Rafa is clearly in the belief that Crouch would help others –– such as Luis Garcia –– exceed their previous levels.

   Crouch's fee does sound a little excessive given what he has thus far achieved in the game, but sometimes it's worth paying twice or even three times the going rate for a player if what he can add to your team is indefinable in monetary terms. For example, I give you two players I was very excited about when they signed for Liverpool in 2000: Christian Ziege and Gary McAllister.

   One ended up costing £8m –– I was wrong to believe he would be a raging success. The other was a free transfer. While many at the time expressed dismay at the signing of McAllister, I felt it was a very clever piece of business. But I had higher hopes of Ziege.

   Had McAllister cost £8m, everyone would have been up in arms. Outraged! Ziege –– a sure-fire hit if ever there was one after his superb season in the Premiership with Boro and his 50+ German caps –– ended up being worth next-to-nothing to Liverpool. For a short while, McAllister was a truly 'priceless' gem. If you now asked Gérard Houllier if he would have paid £8m for McAllister in the summer of 2000 if he had known then what would follow in 2001 and 2002, he'd say "of course".

   A player is only worth what he adds to your team. The time to judge what he is worth to you is not when he signs, on the basis of what he's done at another club (and all the failings that may be associated with that club), but what he has given over the course of his contract at your club. If you have no money to spare, then of course it counts at the time of the transfer; but if a manager has a vision, then he has the right to run with it and show people the results over time; not be prejudged.

   I don't care about the Crouch who was at Aston Villa as a youngster playing under Graham Taylor; I am interested in him playing for a genius like Benítez: a man who has won the Uefa Cup, Spanish League title and Champions League with two different clubs and little cash in thirteen months. Try telling me he doesn't know what he's doing?
   
   I am still confused at the notion that 'you can't win the league with a player like Crouch', or 'X team wouldn't buy him'. It's horses for courses. Look at Ruud van Nistelrooy (no pun intended) –– great striker, everyone agrees (bit of a cheat, though).

   Now compare him to Andy Cole, that joke figure at Man United in the 90s.

   In the four years since RvN arrived at United, he has been incredibly prolific (with the exception of last season, when he managed 'just' 16 in 27 games). But whereas United, with Cole as their main striker, won the league most seasons and won the Champions League in 1999 (the very trophy now permanently on display at Anfield, as we now all know), since RvN arrived they have finished 3rd, 1st, 3rd and 3rd, and won just one further trophy: the FA Cup.

   You cannot attach all (or even much) of the blame to RvN for United's recent failings: there are a myriad reasons. But while the Dutchman outshines Cole on an individual basis, Cole was the more successful player. Maybe Cole had better players around him. Maybe the balance of the team was better. But Cole, for all his faults, proved more than good enough. In terms of trophies-per-season, RvN hasn't. Everyone said 'imagine what United will be like once they add a world-class striker'. They did, and they've had their worst four years for over a decade.

   Then there's that other over-priced, overrated 'joke' player from a couple of years ago: 'Fat' Frankie Lampard. The Fatty to Crouch's Skinny, he was a plodding midfielder who was never marked out for greatness; even his cousin, Jamie Redknapp, felt he'd just make an average top division player. Lampard was at Crouch's age –– 24 –– when his game clicked into gear. Now he's the Footballer of the Year. Who saw that coming?

   Chelsea provide another comparison. In half a season in a very poor Southampton side –– who finished bottom –– Crouch scored as many goals as Didier Drogba managed all season –– for the clear winners of the Premiership title. Drogba cost £24m, nearly five times what we offered for Crouch, and four times what it is believed it will take to land Crouch (£6m).

   Was Drogba worth £24m? As Chelsea count their medals this season, clearly he was. You can argue until you are blue in the face (no pun intended) about how good an 'individual' Drogba is. But he was key to Chelsea's tactics. He played in the games –– and they won the games. Add them up, and they won the league. End of story.

   Djimi Traore is a Champions League-winning left-back. He may not be as good as Ashley Cole, but Ashley Cole is not a Champions League-winning left-back. Neil Mellor isn't remotely as good as Michael Owen, but only one of them contributed to Liverpool winning the Champions League. Igor Biscan has a Champions League-winners' medal. Patrick Vieira doesn't. While you need a core of world-class players –– and hopefully Rafa will sign some more this summer –– you also need those who can contribute in their own idiosyncratic way. Real Madrid are the proof that signing world-class players who do not fit into the grand scheme of things is counterproductive.

   Liverpool could play Ringo Starr up front and if the Reds won the league, he'd be good enough. If over a series of two or more seasons a striker isn't cutting it at Anfield, then you can draw conclusions. Before he's signed is not the time.


Gamble[/i]   

Signing someone like Crouch is always a gamble. Can he handle the pressure at a big club? Can he keep his form and rhythm when being rotated?

   Who knows? You can wonder, but you can't say either way for sure. You could argue that alongside better players he'd actually look much more accomplished –– it can't be easy shining in an awful Southampton side under severe pressure in a relegation dogfight, after all. A player signing for Liverpool can either think "I'm not good enough to be here" and crumble, or say to himself "I must be good, I'm at Liverpool". You only know that once he's there.

   If other mocked players –– such as Biscan and Traore –– can improve beyond recognition under Rafael Benítez, then so too can Crouch, and Crouch has just had a great season. Of course, it could go either way, like any signing. But I'd call it a calculated gamble, not a blind one.

© Paul Tomkins 2005


Important "Golden Past, Red Future" update: price to increase from £9.99 to £12.99 on its release date of June 20th.
 

£12.99 is what we had announced some time ago as the R.R.P, and it is what we will be selling the book for at www.paultomkins.com once the book is released. As previously mentioned, we are currently speaking to a number of book retailers and online stores, and selling it ourselves at £9.99 is confusing issues a little, and causing some logistical problems which could make it difficult for us to use a couple of these outlets. Obviously we want to be able to reach as many Reds as possible.

Instead of just immediately bumping up the price to its R.R.P. now, we'll wait until the book is officially released on 20th June. That gives everyone fair warning. People who were really keen and have already ordered should of course be perfectly happy at this news, and hopefully everyone will now have the option to buy at the current  cheaper price, or wait until it's released knowing full well that it will then cost the R.R.P..



Offline a partridge in seat_5c

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2005, 10:10:13 am »
please stop it with the Crouch stuff until I've been the chemists

my valium's run out

Offline Floundy

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2005, 10:16:29 am »
That's a good read Paul, and it has made me look a the Crouch situation in a different light and yet still I can't help feeling a bit underwhelmed by the prospect of signing him.  I can't seem to explain why, especially as he outscored all of our top scorers in the league this season. 

Maybe I just don't like the idea of signing him because he is a bit of a figure of fun, and also because of his disastrous spell at Villa. 

If he does join us then I pray he proves my gut feeling wrong, and proves your post right
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Offline Mark.

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2005, 10:19:19 am »
I am also rather taken-a-back at the possibility that Crouch could be a Liverpool player within the next few days. It's true, he does provide Rafa with an extra option, but since when did an 'option' cost as much as much as £6 million? I find it quite amazing that Morientes, a proven striker at the top level for many years, with respectable records at every club he's played at may cost LESS than someone who was playing for Norwich City in the first division just last season, averaging 1 goal in every 5 games. It's a point that has been mentioned alot over the past couple of days, but I can't get it out of my head that he might just be another Ricketts or Phillips. They all followed similar patterns, good seasons with regular football, no injuries - and then the England call up, doing reasonably well.

I also feel to some extent that Rafa feels he is obliged to start looking closer to home for his signings. If you all remember, he came under some criticism for selling Owen and Murphy and bringing in 4 Spaniards over the Summer and then another in January. Maybe that with the physicality of the Premiership, he has realised that the 'bull-dog' (no pun required with regards to Crouch) element to an English player is required?

Regardless, if Crouch does come I have faith in Rafa to prove to me that Crouch is LFC 'material'.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 10:21:24 am by Mark. »

Offline inky2

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2005, 10:19:27 am »
not if he scores goals :)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 11:15:44 am by inky2 »
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Offline Tweedy

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2005, 10:21:03 am »
Paul great argument as usual, but you still haven't convinced me I'm afraid.

I understand the arguments you've made, sure we can say Traore, Mellor, Biscan are Champions League winners and compare them to the higher profile and certainly much more talented players and ask where there medals are, but is that really the point? Just because we won the CL with a pretty mediocre set of players, does it really justify signing other mediocre players and therefore logically we can win the premiership?

Looking at the way you fit Crouch into the squad does sound an appealing proposition and in theory could be effective. Problem is I just don't see it working that way and not because of Benetiz getting the tactics wrong, but because I don't think Crouch has that old cliché of a footballing brain, I don't think he can effectively and deliberately use his attributes to create opportunities for others and that's the big difference. That's when the sum of the parts is greater than the whole.

In particular when it comes to attacking, this is when the whole team has to not only think quick but think of their positions and that of others, how they are all related and the opportunities this creates. I haven't seen anything of Crouch this season that suggests he would, off his own bat, work to effectively create space for others. To me most of what happens around Crouch seems to be down to fortune and good luck rather than cunning. It kills me to say this, but I don't even think he's as good as Duncan Ferguson.

But what they hey, I'm willing to be proved wrong and will gladly eat humble pie and all matter of items of headgear if Crouch turns out to be a good signing. Like I always do I'll support the Lads in my shirt and stave of criticism until justified and it'll be no different fro Crouch.

I still hope it's all one big joke though.
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Offline nige

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2005, 10:25:04 am »

   Remember: at Valencia last season, the defence asked their new boss, Claudio Ranieri, how he wanted them to defend. "As you did last year under Benítez", said the Italian. The reply came, "But we had five different ways of defending, depending on how the opposition set out their stall." Quick-witted and thinking on his feet, the Italian said "Oh...".

Love it, love it  :D

Love the comedy sub-headings too :

Depressing                    Not Good  Enough                     Gamble                    Sack Benitez Now

great stuff   :D

Can any watchers of La Liga offer any insights as to how  Crouch compares with Carew/any other lone beanpole up front that Rafa used succesfully ?

« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 10:39:42 am by nige »

Offline B9

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2005, 10:26:11 am »
ABC (Anyone But Crouch)

Offline mikeb58

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2005, 10:30:32 am »
Good read, some very interesting observations and conclusions. I think we have to trust in Rafas judgment, if he sees something in Crouch that is usefull to Liverpool, then I hope we get him.

The goals have got to come from somewhere next season, hasn't got to a shedfull from any one player, as you stated just a few more at the right time would have turned a lot of defeats into draws. I personally reckon Crouch can get his share of goals to justify Rafa's interest in him.
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Offline Red in Korea

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2005, 10:30:33 am »
Great piece again Paul. A couple of comments:

1) Agree totally about missing Owen. Added to that I think his departure is one of the reasons Stevie G has had a 'lesser' all round season for us. Two players that grew up playing together and made each other look even better than they were as individuals.

2) Like the story about Ranieri and his new defence at Valencia. Is it true?

3) Feel you stretched the point about buying players for what they add to the team a bit. Yes, I agree that Crouch could benefit us more than a different style of player because of what he would add to the team. But the arguments about Cole Vs RVN and Drogba in the Chelsea team don't add up for me.

If RVN was in the 99 ManUtd team, who's to say that they wouldn't have been even better? To say Cole was a better player for that team in that system is difficult to prove. And just because Drogba helped Chelsea win the league doesn't mean he's worth £24m. Again, a better player could have hepled Chelsea win the league and the CL and wouldn't necessarily have cost as much. I suspect if Drogba doesn't improve next season he will be sold on for much less.

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Offline a partridge in seat_5c

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2005, 10:33:57 am »
if he signs for us the blueshite will be organising a celebratory open top bus parade of the city of their own

and frankly who can blame them

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2005, 10:40:12 am »
I'm still not convinced we have actually bid for him. Whats to say LFC aren't using The Echo as a smokescreen. It would make sense. I do not believe for one second we will splash out 6mill on him. NEVER.

When Rafa was 'chatting' with the journos the day after the CL final, he was aksed what he would do to improve his away day blues and what had he learnt, his response was that he had learnt that he needs a team of basketball players to compete in the EPL.

I am certain that the journos have picked up on this and hence, that is why we are being linked with Peter 'Dennis Rodman' Crouch. It will be Zat Knight next week.

Good article though.

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2005, 10:44:50 am »
More like Heskey to Crouch and Owen to Ciise perhaps?

The key factor in progressing has to be the ability to adapt to different situations. The team that flourished (in an almost Houllieresque way at times?) in a European setting was out fought and out battled in a number of Premiership games - to the extreme extent of being described as the worst team in years.

There are times when we are going to need a big man to unsettle the defence. There are other times when we will need the craft and guile that unlock a resolute defence. Remember, there is no such thing as the long ball or the short ball - just the right ball. (Hope I got that quote right!)

7m seems steep but it's 4m less than we paid for Heskey. We also need to keep one eye on the new UEFA Regulations for the 2006/7 season. Wait until next year to get English Players back into the squad and we'll be paying more.
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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2005, 10:45:47 am »
Comes at a good time
SSN just reported manu interested in Owen
he wouldn't dare, surely

I said in another thread last week, that fans had similar feelings when we signed Big Tosh
If (big IF) we sign Crouch, he would do well to fill Big John's boots.

Whoever we sign will get our backing, no matter what people say beforehand.
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Offline Red Lozza

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2005, 10:49:32 am »
Great read Paul!

I wonder what people would think of Crouch if he was 5ft 10? Probably that he's a promising young English striker who had scored lots of goals for a struggling, relegation-standard side, and that he could really excel in a better team.

Can any watchers of La Liga offer any insights as to how  Crouch compares with Carew/any other lone beanpole up front that Rafa used succesfully ?

Carew's record under Rafa:

01-02    Valence CF    1 Goals, 14 Games     7 Games (UEFA Cup)    3 Goals, 2 Games (Valencia won the title)

02-03    Valence CF    8 Goals, 33 Games    5 Goals, 13 Games (Champions League)

From what I've read, I get the impression that Rafa didn't rate Carew that highly but used him to good effect in the Champions League in 02-03 - Carew scored the goals that knocked out Arsenal.

Rafa then replaced Carew with Mista who was a prolific scorer in Rafa's La Liga winning side in 03-04. Mista put his transformation down to a book on relaxation given to him by Pako Ayesteran!

I saw quite a bit of Valencia in that title-winning season and apart from his goals, Mista was very good at winning the ball in the air, holding it up and intelligently bringing Valencia's midfielders into play. I don't see any reason why Crouch can't do the same. And like Crouch, "many people doubted Mista's ability to perform at the highest level", according to several profiles on him.

It's Cisse who I'm really excited about for next season, though. I think his pace on the break could transform our performances away from home.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 10:52:05 am by Red Lozza »

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2005, 10:54:20 am »
And don't forget he's Plug-Ugly

« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 12:11:19 pm by trigger »
Frankly if your team is mentioned in a Liverpool song, you should be chuffed

Offline a partridge in seat_5c

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2005, 10:54:42 am »
The key factor in progressing has to be the ability to adapt to different situations.

no it isn't

this 'possibilities' shite of Rafa's is doing my fucking head in

the key factor to progressing is to sign better players, not to sign one 7 foot tall goofy fella to make the oppo defenders fall around laffin, one who can play on muddy pitches cos he's got webbed feet, one who can push the ball past his marker and double back somersault over the top of him, blah dee bleedin blah

we're a football club not a fucking circus

Offline -Daws-

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2005, 10:57:19 am »
Good read, Paul. I'm under the impression that people are worried Rafa has only seen an inform 6 months from Peter and is taking a gamble on that, which is understandable. However I for one trust our manager's judgement, and will not make any decision about Crouch being the right or wrong answer until he has played at leasta season in a Red shirt.
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Offline gramck24

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2005, 10:57:21 am »
Some fair comments there Paul but i still stick to my guns and say we should not sign him (if indeed we are in for him at all). Imo, he just simply is not good enough. Yes he scored quite a few goals for the saints but better players in average teams always stick out like a sore thumb. Andy Johnson is another player just to name one.

Whilst Crouch is relatively still young and can develop, how often will he play?? To me (and probably most fans), if you had the choice of two top internationals who are used to playing at all levels (Cisse & Nando) or (Crouch & Cisse/Pongy), you will probably know what most answers you would get. Whilst Crouch has time to develop, will he get that chance for his game to develop as a 'bit part' player.

If we sign him i just don't see us playing him regularly. Crouch would be used as a weapon to come on and change things late in a game. I cannot see it being a benefit to club or player if he signs.

Besides, Crouch just may be a smokescreen for somone else. Who knows??

Those are just my thoughts anyway.

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2005, 11:01:41 am »
If we sign him i just don't see us playing him regularly. Crouch would be used as a weapon to come on and change things late in a game. I cannot see it being a benefit to club or player if he signs.



There's your benefit.

Offline Kanonkop

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2005, 11:01:58 am »
great article and I totally agree.

If Benitez wants him then that is good enough for me.  Beyond that, I also see the logic in having a player like Crouch in the squad.  Not for every game, clearly (although who knows - time will tell).

Like you say, all signings are a gamble but in todays world, £6m is not that much money.  Cannot compare the fee to Morientes - totally different circumstances.

And is he more of a gamble than signing a Continental forward for £15-20m?  I suspect not.  But given that opinion on him is very divided, I suspect even when (if) he signs it will be a bit like Garcia.  Many of us loved him and saw the potential from day one but others still don't rate him although most doubters have been won over during the season.  I.E. If Crouch signs and proves a success then most will be firmly behind him.

Personally, I really like what he can add and think he has potential to become even better under Benitez so am actually quite excited by the prospect of signing him.
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Offline -Daws-

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2005, 11:04:40 am »
no it isn't

this 'possibilities' shite of Rafa's is doing my fucking head in

the key factor to progressing is to sign better players, not to sign one 7 foot tall goofy fella to make the oppo defenders fall around laffin, one who can play on muddy pitches cos he's got webbed feet, one who can push the ball past his marker and double back somersault over the top of him, blah dee bleedin blah

we're a football club not a fucking circus

Obviously both you and a manager who has won 2 league titles, the UEFA cup and the Champion's league are wrong then, Paul; this guy says so. Clearly what we need to do is fork out stupid money on over rated players like Beckham, and turn into Real Madrid, full of high paid superstars and underachievers.

Sort it out, sunshine.
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Offline Neil D

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2005, 11:06:39 am »
no it isn't

this 'possibilities' shite of Rafa's is doing my fucking head in

the key factor to progressing is to sign better players, not to sign one 7 foot tall goofy fella to make the oppo defenders fall around laffin, one who can play on muddy pitches cos he's got webbed feet, one who can push the ball past his marker and double back somersault over the top of him, blah dee bleedin blah

we're a football club not a fucking circus

if he signs for us the blueshite will be organising a celebratory open top bus parade of the city of their own

and frankly who can blame them

Thought that was an interesting read Paul
Seems to be a lot of hate there seat_5c
Just wondering... has Peter Crouch ever slept with your girlfriend/wife or murdered a member of your family or close friend?

This 'possibilities shite of Rafa is doing my head in'

I'm quite happy with it myself

Offline Stanfo

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2005, 11:06:46 am »
if he signs for us the blueshite will be organising a celebratory open top bus parade of the city of their own

and frankly who can blame them

Two points, who gives a fuck about Everton and secondly their great hero and on last seasons form best striker is a beanpole striker just like Crouch.

Lastly, until Morientes and Cisse prove they can score goals regularly in this country I believe the jury is still out on them too.

Offline Kanonkop

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2005, 11:10:10 am »
the key factor to progressing is to sign better players, not to sign one 7 foot tall goofy fella to make the oppo defenders fall around laffin, one who can play on muddy pitches cos he's got webbed feet, one who can push the ball past his marker and double back somersault over the top of him, blah dee bleedin blah

Actually I totally disagree with this sort of view.  How many of our players from the past were picked from e.g. lower division clubs who then went on to become the greats they were in the red shirt?  Were they "better" players than those they replaced when they were signed - Clearly NOT in almost all cases.  Did they become as good or better than those they replaced - Clearly YES in almost all cases.

Rather than the simplistic view of "We should sign better players" is to say lets sign players who add to our team and who in turn will become better players than they currently are. 

And if the oppo defenders fall about laughing - then thats fantastic.  Imagine how many goals we will score with them all lying on their backs and only the goalie to beat !!!  ;)
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2005, 11:11:31 am »
if he signs for us the blueshite will be organising a celebratory open top bus parade of the city of their own

and frankly who can blame them


Good. Let them.

Ours was for winning the Champions League.

You really want to stop paying attention to what the fans of other clubs think, as it really isn't worth it. Let them worry about their team...

Offline Brick Tamland

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2005, 11:12:22 am »
Crouch has always been a better player with his feet than he has been given credit for. Because of his height, people imediately label him.

Having said that, I wouldn't really be excited if we signed him for say 6 million and let Baros go for the same price. He is not a bad player, but in my eyes neither is he a exceptional player that would significantly improve us to aid us in a quest to break into the top 3.

Make me eat my words Rafa?
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Offline inky2

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2005, 11:16:13 am »
And don't forget he's Plug-Ugly ;D






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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2005, 11:25:57 am »
You really want to stop paying attention to what the fans of other clubs think...

I don't give a flying one what they think

however I kind of like the idea of planning to go and watch my side play without having the horror of turning up and having to watch 90 minutes of bollocks Wimbledon style football

the Club should have to name the team on the Friday so those of us who like watching proper football can earn some brownie points by going shopping with the missus if freakshow's in the team

Offline gramck24

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2005, 11:27:07 am »
There's your benefit.

Providing the player does not become stale from being on the bench week in and week out.

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2005, 11:34:16 am »
From what I've read, I get the impression that Rafa didn't rate Carew that highly but used him to good effect in the Champions League in 02-03 - Carew scored the goals that knocked out Arsenal.

Rafa didn't rate Carew, but that was mainly down to the player's massive attitude problems at the time.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2005, 11:37:22 am »
however I kind of like the idea of planning to go and watch my side play without having the horror of turning up and having to watch 90 minutes of bollocks Wimbledon style football

the Club should have to name the team on the Friday so those of us who like watching proper football can earn some brownie points by going shopping with the missus if freakshow's in the team


You really are a joker, aren't you? Do you think the man who has made us a footballing side again will revert to Wimbledon style tactics? For your information, it was Bob Paisley who said "football is not about the long ball or the short ball. It's about the right ball." And Shankly never hid from playing Toshack, a big target man.

Go and shop with the missus if that's your attitude. Nice to know some people only support the team if they love all 11 players...  ::)


Offline Kanonkop

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2005, 11:57:31 am »
I don't give a flying one what they think

however I kind of like the idea of planning to go and watch my side play without having the horror of turning up and having to watch 90 minutes of bollocks Wimbledon style football

the Club should have to name the team on the Friday so those of us who like watching proper football can earn some brownie points by going shopping with the missus if freakshow's in the team

Fantastic - you will have no problem getting rid of your unwanted ticket to fans much more deserving and supportive.

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Online rob1966

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2005, 12:35:25 pm »
Paul, you on a commission if we sign Crouch or what?  ;)

Seriously though, the more you’ve banged on about him, the more I’ve started warming to the idea, not as a starting player, but as an option from the bench.
 I can see where you are coming from with your arguments. The great sides I grew up watching had their fair share of average players but when combined with the rest, the team as a whole worked, because the players did the job they were asked to do. One player who springs to mind is Michael Robinson. I was reading an interview with him at the start of last season. He was saying how he was brought into Liverpool to take some of the burden off Kenny, as Kenny was getting older and it took him longer to recover between games. That season, Joe Fagan won the treble and Robinson ended up as a league and European Cup winner (can’t remember if he was in the Lge Cup Final squad).His problem was though, he fell into the “What am I doing here” category. By his own admission, he didn’t think he was fit to play alongside Rush, Souness, Dalglish et al.

I have said I wasn’t impressed with Crouch when I saw him against us at St Mary’s in January, but it is being unfair on my part to judge a player on seeing him once or twice a season actually live.(Can't remember if he played at Anfield). I’ve started to remember games when Harry brought him on as sub and he has created havoc in the opposition defence and tended to grab a goal. It is all about options and against a packed defence, for example, bringing on a 6ft 7 target means that, whilst you don’t necessarily have to start lumping balls at him, if you can’t find a way into the box, then the option is there to fire in crosses.This then changes the defences mindset as they have something different to worry about. The quality of our corners will have to improve though.

If Rafa thinks Crouch will fit into his plans, then we have to trust him.You don’t win what he has without knowing what you are doing. He’s been right in what he has done so far re-transfers. People may point to Josemi and Pellegrino, but Josemi was bought to address an immediate problem position, he was effective early on, in fact he looked very good, which, in turn, gave Finnan time to find his form (and maybe a push to do so?), Pellegrino coming in allowed Sami to be rested from time to time – he had some good games and he had some poor games but he cost nothing bar wages. He probably contributed on the training pitch too.

If Crouch does come, lets just hope people give him time to settle and adjust and keep off his back.Express doubts and moan on here or to your mates in the pub, but at the ground, give him 100% backing. I heard Garcia say in an interview a few months back he was aware sections of the crowd didn’t like him, that’s really gonna help a player to settle isn’t it?
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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2005, 12:36:25 pm »
I don't give a flying one what they think

however I kind of like the idea of planning to go and watch my side play without having the horror of turning up and having to watch 90 minutes of bollocks Wimbledon style football

the Club should have to name the team on the Friday so those of us who like watching proper football can earn some brownie points by going shopping with the missus if freakshow's in the team

Utter Bollocks.
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Offline Rafa's Red's

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2005, 12:50:24 pm »
Looking at Peter Crouch at Liverpool, you'd be naive in thinking he could'nt do a job for us in the role as a target man. We've probably made the conclusion that Rafa see's Crouch as a John Carew type player, tall, strong and skillful.

Personally, Crouch is not the type of player I would want here because he is unproven. Yes I know he's had a good season, scoring goals for Soton ( even one against us at St. Mary's )  and has recently been in the England team. But do people forget the calamity of one cap wonders for the national team that were crap, following on from one good season. Bolton had Michael Ricketts vying to be someone he's not, in an England international. Of course Crouch is not guaranteed this same path but if we jump into this transfer and things fail to happen, Liverpool and Benitez will be the one's with eggs on faces. Yes its been mentioned this signing will be a gamble but can we afford a gamble. What £5--6m on Crouch is hardly a steal in the Gary McAllisister sense, so its worth looking around.

But as was also mentioned Crouch is someone who could balance the team out. This is the situation for us fans to look at. Do we be stubborn and dismiss Crouch ( One like myself) or do we support the team and Rafa's judgement.

Certainly something to mull over in the next few months. :P :P
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 12:53:01 pm by Rafa's Red's »

Offline Tosh

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2005, 01:12:55 pm »
I said in another thread last week, that fans had similar feelings when we signed Big Tosh


Who's gone and signed me then??

:)

Offline magpie

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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2005, 01:26:28 pm »

If Benitez wants him then that is good enough for me.
Good shout. How about we just wait and see what happens. There's a total lack of patience on this website and it's getting a 606 feel to it which is no good to anyone. Let's have some intelligent discussion...
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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2005, 01:29:15 pm »
echo today, kuyt has heard our attention has switched to crouch and doesn't like it. he's openly said he wants to join us apparantly
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Re: From Owen to Crouch in 12 months: disastrous for Liverpool?
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2005, 01:35:29 pm »
please stop it with the Crouch stuff until I've been the chemists

my valium's run out

if he signs for us the blueshite will be organising a celebratory open top bus parade of the city of their own

and frankly who can blame them

no it isn't

this 'possibilities' shite of Rafa's is doing my fucking head in

the key factor to progressing is to sign better players, not to sign one 7 foot tall goofy fella to make the oppo defenders fall around laffin, one who can play on muddy pitches cos he's got webbed feet, one who can push the ball past his marker and double back somersault over the top of him, blah dee bleedin blah

we're a football club not a fucking circus

I don't give a flying one what they think

however I kind of like the idea of planning to go and watch my side play without having the horror of turning up and having to watch 90 minutes of bollocks Wimbledon style football

the Club should have to name the team on the Friday so those of us who like watching proper football can earn some brownie points by going shopping with the missus if freakshow's in the team

Crouch should not be signed because he looks funny and people will laugh...

now, that's an intelligent opinion.

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