Topic: All this talk of megamillionbucks strikers...

[shaunstrudwick]

re: Berbatov - the season just gone is the first season that he's been anywhere near consistent game in game out - in Germany it was always 1 blindin game and 3 bad

where as Kuyt works his socks off all day long - and if Rafa was to play him further up the pitch and you would instantly see a better goal ratio

[Joe_Singh]

I honestly don't have one. It's a question which perplexes me- and it's not the only thing about Benitez, much as I like him. I just get the feeling that now is crucial- we were led to believe money was available, but getting it wrong now could fuck us up big time in the long run.

I know what you mean, its is very perplexing and worrying too. We have been waiting an aweful long time for things to click into place for us. This seams to be the last thing to sort out and it is proving very elusive. Ultimately all we can do is be patient and see what happens come the end of the transfer window.

Even if we don't get anyone we're still gonna get behind the likes of Crouch, Kuyt Vronin and Bellamy.

[Joe_Singh]

re: Berbatov - the season just gone is the first season that he's been anywhere near consistent game in game out - in Germany it was always 1 blindin game and 3 bad

where as Kuyt works his socks off all day long - and if Rafa was to play him further up the pitch and you would instantly see a better goal ratio

Very much agree with that especially the latter. The question is who is the preferred partner for Kuyt for him to play further up.

[Mal]

The threads a joke.

I'd have liked to stay well clear but saw this and bit.

Limited budget my ass.

Net spend per season since he's been here is £15m.

You don't think that's limited?

[albertared]

i think the question more pertinent would be....will he find a way to make any striker he buys and/or our existing strikers more productive?

i am not bashing rafa but, just like houllier before him, he seems to have problems getting the best out of our forward players.

while perhaps most of our forwards are/were not quite world class they are surely better than we have made them look over the last 5 or 6 years.

i still think robbie fowler wasn't really used right....i would have started him in 10 or 12 games in a row to really give him a chance to forge a partership with crouch or kuyt. i know robbie is slow now but he still knows where the net is and he is also excellent at bringing other players into a move. oh well, too late now.

[cornelius]

The threads a joke.

I'd have liked to stay well clear but saw this and bit.

Net spend per season since he's been here is £15m.

You don't think that's limited?

I think it's a happy medium. Ok he hasn't had megabucks but you can't say he hasn't blown a lot of money either. He's outlayed a sizeable wedge already and that's just in 3 seasons. £6M on Reina, £6m on Agger, £6M on Bellamy, £6m on Morientes, £6m on Pennant, £6m on Crouch, £6m on Garcia. Now some people are saying he's about to spend £6m on Benayoun. I mean Christ, who is charge of LFC? Is it Rafa Benitez or is it Steve Austin?

[Mal]

I think it's a happy medium. Ok he hasn't had megabucks but you can't say he hasn't blown a lot of money either. He's outlayed a sizeable wedge already and that's just in 3 seasons. £6M on Reina, £6m on Agger, £6M on Bellamy, £6m on Morientes, £6m on Pennant, £6m on Crouch, £6m on Garcia. Now some people are saying he's about to spend £6m on Benayoun. I mean Christ, who is charge of LFC? Is it Rafa Benitez or is it Steve Austin?

Stone Cold

[Ron]

Exactly.

IN RAFA WE TRUST!

He's just another guy, really.
OK, he's the manager of LFC but he isn't holy.
I'm pretty sure that if I'd been in charge for the Champions League final we would have won it.
It was just a daft thing to do, play cowardly defensive like that.
Made me think of Houllier ...
But being critical is not the same as what you people call "Rafa bashing", it is just being critical.
I never follow somebody blindly.
As for his signings, some were good, others have already been told to piss off again.
So I think this thread is OK.

[Neil D]

The only striker I've ever seen do the donkey-work for the side and manage to score on a consistent basis at the same time is Ian Rush. A massively rare breed and people like Kuyt and Bellamy aren't good enough to do both. Time to sign a lazy bastard who can stick the ball in the frigging net.

True.

None of Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy, Fowler or Morientes can be called a complete success in my view. They are not all failures, but none have performed consistently at the level we should expect from a Liverpool striker.

I'm sick of people making excuses. Our strikers don't score enough goals and they have not been good enough to win us the title. Stagger Lee is right to raise such a question - Rafa's record signing strikers is average at best. Our strengths are our central midfield and our defensive back five. That's fucking obvious.

[Finn Solomon]

He's just another guy, really.
OK, he's the manager of LFC but he isn't holy.

Blasphemer! The touch of Benitez cures all disease and automatically makes you get laid that night.

[Ron]

Blasphemer! The touch of Benitez cures all disease and automatically makes you get laid that night.

Oh.
I didn't know that, sorry ...

[cornelius]

Stone Cold

I was thinking more along the lines of Lee Majors.

[Mal]

The only striker I've ever seen do the donkey-work for the side and manage to score on a consistent basis at the same time is Ian Rush. A massively rare breed and people like Kuyt and Bellamy aren't good enough to do both. Time to sign a lazy bastard who can stick the ball in the frigging net.

True.

None of Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy, Fowler or Morientes can be called a complete success in my view. They are not all failures, but none have performed consistently at the level we should expect from a Liverpool striker.

I'm sick of people making excuses. Our strikers don't score enough goals and they have not been good enough to win us the title. Stagger Lee is right to raise such a question - Rafa's record signing strikers is average at best. Our strengths are our central midfield and our defensive back five. That's fucking obvious.

We have had a striker who is "a lazy bastard" on the books all season; Fowler & lots of people say he didn't play enough. What makes you think Benitez will play someone else who is "a lazy bastard" more often? - Don't kid yourself that Fowler works hard, he's relied on his talent for knicking goals, always has, he's been fucking brilliant at it (& I love him for it) but he doesn't & never has work his socks off for the team.


And about even raising the subject of Benitez's ability to judge strikers... It's no coincidence that strikers cost more cash than regular players. Unless you strike it really lucky, £15m net per season is not enough to buy a shit hot striker who will transform the side.

Our record signing is £14m for Cisse, just go and look how many players, not just strikers, but players ManU & Chelsea have who cost more than him.

Benitez has had to cut his cloth accordingly

* Crouch (£7m) - has done alot better than expected
* Kuyt (£10m) - has been about par for the course in his first season
* Fowler (free) - well, we've discussed him already
* Morientes, (£6m) - didn't cut it in England but most people were salivating at the prospect, and for only £6m!!
* Bellamy (£6m) - it's all about molly-coddling this twat, something Benitez hasn't been prepared to do, and most commentators expect us to make a healthy profit when we sell him this summer just 12 months after we bought him, good investment.

I'd agree that it's not exactly a litany of success but, given that we've paid below average prices (for strikers) for most of them and that you concede they have performed at least averagely, is it really reason to question his ability to judge a striker?

I don't think so.

[Mal]

I was thinking more along the lines of Lee Majors.

Bionic.

[cornelius]

* Bellamy (£6m) - it's all about molly-coddling this twat, something Benitez hasn't been prepared to do, and most commentators expect us to make a healthy profit when we sell him this summer just 12 months after we bought him, good investment.

Yup to Aston Villa probably. You can almost see what's coming on the opening day.

[chanti]

yes for fuck sake buy Torres

I am also sick of these second rate strikers!!!!!!

[-HH-]

I'm sick of people making excuses. Our strikers don't score enough goals and they have not been good enough to win us the title.

Only half true, if you compare our strikers' scoring records last season to the Mancs...

[Alf]

If Rafa wants to spend 15-20 million pounds on a striker then I say let him. He's got us to 2 European Cup Finals and won the FA Cup in 3 seasons with what he's spent already so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Mighty_Red]

If Rafa wants to spend 15-20 million pounds on a striker then I say let him. He's got us to 2 European Cup Finals and won the FA Cup in 3 seasons with what he's spent already so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

I have no problem with it, if the guy has the attributes we need, then we have to go for him. We have a squad in place, so even if we splash on a forward, we will still have crouch & kuyt established to help bed the new guy in

It is worth remembering that our last successful striker purchase was Ian Rush! And Aldo before that. No other players have scored 50 league goals for us during this time. OF course when youve had Robbie and Owen to build a team around its very hard to find players who can also weigh in with the goals

[tommy26241]

I have no problem with it, if the guy has the attributes we need, then we have to go for him. We have a squad in place, so even if we splash on a forward, we will still have crouch & kuyt established to help bed the new guy in

It is worth remembering that our last successful striker purchase was Ian Rush! And Aldo before that. No other players have scored 50 league goals for us during this time. OF course when youve had Robbie and Owen to build a team around its very hard to find players who can also weigh in with the goals

are u picking on rob jones mate

[Neil D]

We have had a striker who is "a lazy bastard" on the books all season; Fowler & lots of people say he didn't play enough. What makes you think Benitez will play someone else who is "a lazy bastard" more often? - Don't kid yourself that Fowler works hard, he's relied on his talent for knicking goals, always has, he's been fucking brilliant at it (& I love him for it) but he doesn't & never has work his socks off for the team.


And about even raising the subject of Benitez's ability to judge strikers... It's no coincidence that strikers cost more cash than regular players. Unless you strike it really lucky, £15m net per season is not enough to buy a shit hot striker who will transform the side.

Our record signing is £14m for Cisse, just go and look how many players, not just strikers, but players ManU & Chelsea have who cost more than him.

Benitez has had to cut his cloth accordingly

* Crouch (£7m) - has done alot better than expected
* Kuyt (£10m) - has been about par for the course in his first season
* Fowler (free) - well, we've discussed him already
* Morientes, (£6m) - didn't cut it in England but most people were salivating at the prospect, and for only £6m!!
* Bellamy (£6m) - it's all about molly-coddling this twat, something Benitez hasn't been prepared to do, and most commentators expect us to make a healthy profit when we sell him this summer just 12 months after we bought him, good investment.

I'd agree that it's not exactly a litany of success but, given that we've paid below average prices (for strikers) for most of them and that you concede they have performed at least averagely, is it really reason to question his ability to judge a striker?

I don't think so.

We all know Fowler was past his best, so I don't think that comparison holds. He didn't play more because he physically couldn't manage it.

I don't agree with the other argument either, because if we had spent the £6m on Bellamy and £10m on Kuyt on one player, there is a £16m world beater right there. Our spending on strikers under Rafa has been poor and unsuccessful.

[dane]

Name me one person (besides Ballague) who wasn't gushing like a school girl when we signed Morientes?

Me.

Back to the topic though... I agree that Benitez has not done too bad.  I think Morientes was a terrible signing in the circumstances (which does not mean he is an apalling player).  Bellamy's form has been off, doesn't make it a bad signing, especially for the price.  If we let go of Bellamy we will make a profit despite his relatively poor/patchy form in his first season with us.

I'm not sure that the Fowler re-signing was such a great idea... but he was free - I'll assume we had no funds available.  I think we could have given Pongolle more chances instead of bringing Robbie back.

There may be a question as to Rafa's willingness/ability to deal with the big egos that come with star players commanding big fees but time will tell.

[dane]

We all know Fowler was past his best, so I don't think that comparison holds. He didn't play more because he physically couldn't manage it.

I don't agree with the other argument either, because if we had spent the £6m on Bellamy and £10m on Kuyt on one player, there is a £16m world beater right there. Our spending on strikers under Rafa has been poor and unsuccessful.

I agree that the Fowler thing was a bit strange.

Regarding Craig Douglas Bellamy and Kuyt... I actually liked the signing of Bellamy for 6m better than Kuyt for 10m.  That said, you want to add the 10 and 6 to make 16 and say that should be a worldbeater??  Name the worldbeater that could have been signed for 16m.  I'm not saying you can't do it... I just want to know who you think should have been signed rather than Bellamy and Kuyt for that 16m.

[Pooch]

'IN RAFA WE TRUST...IN RAFA WE TRUST...' like lobotomised herring.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

I don't think an intelligent herring can speak so as for the lobotmised ones, I don't think they'd stand a chance. That's where Claws argument falls apart

[Armin]

Begs the question... given his track record of signing strikers thus far- would you actually trust Benitez to spend £15-£20 million of whatever budget he ends up with? Honestly?

With Benitez you have to look at who he wanted to buy as well as who he actually did. He wanted Villa before he moved to Valencia, supposedly failing to win the Liverpool board over when his price was a fifth of what it is now. He also wanted Eto at a time when his stock was far lower than it is now. If he'd been backed to the hilt at those points with his first choices I think we'd be a far better team.

[StormyDog]

OK, point taken so who are the new Eto'o and Villa ?

You all can guess that Rafa's gonna buy someone we've never heard of, and claim he's the no.1 choice. We as fans are gonna say "but what about Eto'o ?" and we'll all be disillusioned till this new guy scored a hat-full of goals by xmas.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

depends on how big the hat is stormydog

[Mal]

We all know Fowler was past his best, so I don't think that comparison holds. He didn't play more because he physically couldn't manage it.

I don't agree with the other argument either, because if we had spent the £6m on Bellamy and £10m on Kuyt on one player, there is a £16m world beater right there. Our spending on strikers under Rafa has been poor and unsuccessful.

I'm sure that if Benitez had wanted Robbie to play more games he would have. Don't buy that it was down to fitness all the time, sure he was past his best but Benitez could easily have played him at least a bit more often and didn't.

Face it, Benitez hasn't bought who he wanted because he had to cut his cloth accordingly, it's about the numbers too, he wants 4 strikers, if he'd bought a so called world beater for £16m and then he got injured we'd have had Crouch & Fowler all season.

And £16m does not buy you a world beater. These days it doesn't even buy Michael Carrick. Fuck, it doesn't even buy Darren Bent.

[Sir Harvest Fields]

i know that ppl say 35 mil on a player doesnt mean squat but look at the mancs spending. chelseas too. even west ham were gonna twat our record signing fee for bent. is that what its come down to? west hams level? no disrespect to hammers.

[tommyboysmith1]

Charlton valuation of Bent is a joke, but if were seriously interested and being betaen off by the likes of westham for his signature we have problems. I just pray that he is 4th choice and were waiting to tie up the big gun who finishes playing in spain at the weekend!

[docker]

Good question.

There is nothing to suggest from his previous excursions into the transfer market that we should.

Never bought a big name in his life and his transfer record is ok.

But, I think we have to back him. If not, then sack him. Would another manager make better use of the money? Fuck knows.

Think we have to ride with it Jon.

But, I hope to fuck we can clear this question up this Summer.

His tactical play is another matter that needs to be addressed though.

yes good points, but if at villa park he plays his negative game plan ill not be happy, started getting well pissed off at times away from home last season, and after the blackburn game people were really questioning rafas tactical knowledge of the premiership, im not convinced in rafa like some on here, good in a cup tie, fucking average in the league if past managers are put against him,ie evans,houlier ie couldnt win it??

[StormyDog]

depends on how big the hat is stormydog

Lets hope its a stetson and not a baseball one then

[Gnurglan]

We have to.

Rafa has taken us to two CL Finals in three years. We've won the CL and the FA Cup. It's time to challenge for the league. If Rafa thinks we need a striker, let's make sure we get who he wants.

It's time to act. Should we fail, then we may ask questions, but right now we should support Rafa 100¤%.

[fowlermagic]

The usage of the strikers on our books over the last three years has been average. No doubt about that. Some point at the service issue but even still you would think we woul dhav emade some head way in its progress by now. All told Rafa has had 45m plus striker talent in his hands  ......Cisse 14m, Morientes 6m, Crouch 7m, Bellamy 6m, Kuyt 9m plus Fowler & the young lads....and hes moulded how many goals out of all that lot?

Hes spent nearly 30m on four lads and three of them have fallen out of his favour. The cash was there to splash out on two major signings and bolster that with freebies. Now we probably have another 15m plus to spend in strikers this summer...if we want Tevez we can get him by selling one of Bellamy or Crouch and funding the deal. Lets stop the whining, spend the cash so that excuse is out the door an dgive Rafa th estriker he wants so he cannot turn around and say hes working with 2nd choices..get that excuse out the door too.

[John C]

I don't like the suggestions about the likes of Berbatov and McCarthy somehow being great successes compared to our current crop of strikers. They're playing in sides which don't get the benefit of 10 man behind the ball syndrome every week and (at least in Berbatov's case) play in sides with a more attacking tactical set up too. As has already been pointed out Berbatov's league record is no great improvement on Kuyt or Crouch, if indeed it is an improvement at all.

Completely valid point

[ILF]

Why were Liverpool supporters in ecstasy when Morientes signed? I mean he was like 3rd or 4th choice striker in Real Madrid, and you were in desperate need for a good striker. For me, it is very much clear that Rafa made the mistake there. But what can you do when you are not given enough money?

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

Why were Liverpool supporters in ecstasy when Morientes signed? I mean he was like 3rd or 4th choice striker in Real Madrid, and you were in desperate need for a good striker. For me, it is very much clear that Rafa made the mistake there. But what can you do when you are not given enough money?

he scored 9 goals in 12 games in the Champions League, leading Monaco to the European Cup Final the previous season

[FranklyRed]

no 20 million for Forlan... then better no 20 million...
Milito is already 27, Bent's value way of the mark and still a 'prospect'...
Others like Eto'o, Villa, are way over the 20 million mark... 
and el Niño...  when available less than 20 million I would take the risk although I think
it would be hard for him to leave Atletico Madrid, and... Benitez does not seem to be fond of him because Rafa thinks el Niño probably does not have it professionally, the ability to make it.
He has a good record for Spain though...

I think what a striker concers it would be very hard...
Better buy players who can score, have width, creativity,.. like Malouda, although I have concers about Simao (especially physically/professionally) I would take the risk when available for about 12 mln but the president already has put a figure way above ...

[ILF]

he scored 9 goals in 12 games in the Champions League, leading Monaco to the European Cup Final the previous season

But the same season, he scored only 10 goals in  French League, and before he joined Liverpool He played only 13 games in La Liga with 0 goal. But he scored 2 goals in CL.

He was never a top quality striker.