Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance

[Fitzy.]

Gakpo for one.

Far better? He's had a few nice moments over the past couple of games.

I'm not against Salah being benched, but when I have heard this argument I'm not seeing a natural replacement. I mean, he was on the bench against Atalanta and the replacements didn't succeed.

[wah00ey]

My issue with this line of thinking is that it is applied in hindsight - engineered reasoning to match the outcome of football matches. Liverpool were pretty flawless from January to late March and it was all about Klopp's last dance and doing it for the manager. Liverpool have had a poor week and we can now attribute it to the manager leaving and the effect it has on the mindset of footballers. It's a bit too neat and tidy as a rationale. The more compelling argument is probably around player form, fatigue and returning players not quite being match ready to influence games.

That's cherry picking what I said, Fitzy.  I said after the piece you quoted that the pressure is now ramping up as the remaining games get fewer and fewer.  It's impossible for that not to have an effect on players, certainly some of the younger ones.  You mention form, fatigue and returning players which I do think are also part of the equation.

[Fromola]

I wonder if there's too much pressure on the players because Klopp's leaving?  There was an initial galvanising effect when the news came out but now it's so tight at the top and we had a relatively comfortable looking quarter final in the UEFA, it looks like the players are bum clenching a bit.  Nobody wants to be the one making the mistake that means he doesn't win a double or treble in his final season.

They all look mentally constipated to me and it's down to Virgil and Mo and Robbo as senior players to set the example.  Only Robbo did this on Sunday against Palace which isn't enough.

A combination as well of constant injuries, having to go flat out in every game zapping everyone's energy levels and then returning players from injury then being rusty.

We could have easily dropped points at home to the three promoted teams recently and they're essentially Championship sides. Palace are a seasoned Premier League team and well coached, so you can't get away with being sub par and lethargic like against Sheffield United and Burnley. The last two results have been coming at Anifeld.

Away from home the only top 10 team we've beat all season is Newcastle with the last minute winner. Wolves in 11th last minute winner. Palace in 14th last minute winner. Forest in 18th last minute winner. Luton in 19th last minute equaliser. And at home we've only beaten Villa and Newcastle out the top 7 (Spurs still to play).

We haven't really been good enough.

[wah00ey]

I'm not sure Gakpo starting ahead of Mo is a solution.  I'd be more inclined to try and find a way of getting Harvey more involved.

[UntouchableLuis]

Nothings changed in my thinking.

I'm certain that City win all their games.

I'm certain Arsenal drop more points (probably vs Spurs)

I'm almost certain we aren't winning all our 6 games.

I think we'll get 3 wins (Everton, Spurs and Wolves) but draw to Fulham and West Ham and lose to Villa. We might beat West Ham but they're the kind of side to turn it on at home against us. Everton will obviously try and make it difficult but they are so unbelievably poor that we just have to win that.



For me, it's about securing top 3 (pipping Arsenal to 2nd would be a good statement), hopefully having one or two more great moments with Klopp (like battering Everton in his last derby) and living him the send off he deserves before preparing for a new dawn.

The Europa has probably been a bigger shock to me as I really thought we were nailed on for the final.

[bobadicious]

Thursday night is huge. An unlikely comeback could reignite our season just as the fire looked to be going out. You got to believe until all hope is gone, its the Liverpool way.

[Fitzy.]

That's cherry picking what I said, Fitzy.  I said after the piece you quoted that the pressure is now ramping up as the remaining games get fewer and fewer.  It's impossible for that not to have an effect on players, certainly some of the younger ones.  You mention form, fatigue and returning players which I do think are also part of the equation.

Fair enough. I just think the Klopp leaving psycho-drama is too nebulous a reason for deserving real assessment. It's too caught-up in results week-by-week.

[Fitzy.]

Away from home the only top 10 team we've beat all season is Newcastle with the last minute winner.

The amount of defeats that top-10 teams suffer at home is pretty low - certainly against other top-10 sides. Man City won a treble last year and won very few top-10 games away from home. While it may cost Liverpool, it's not just a Liverpool issue. The league is extremely tough - which is just a fact.

[lionel_messias]

Fair enough. I just think the Klopp leaving psycho-drama is too nebulous a reason for deserving real assessment. It's too caught-up in results week-by-week.

I agree. It is more likely fatigue and the result of young lads like Quansah and Bradley playing way
more minutes than would have been planned for them pre-season.

Trent's injuries as well. This iteration of Klopp 2.0 is largely based on his skillset, flawed as this plan may be.

Right now, I'll take any win on Thursday, if we can also get 60 mins in Trent and Jota's legs. Yeah we've been pretty down since Sunday but lets fuckin force City to win out.

You never know if injury or fatigue is coming for them: a week of Real Madrid then Chelsea beings tackles, intensity and the possibility of mishaps.

Keep going lads.

[Stevo]

We don’t need to be beating the top 10 teams to win the league, those games help but there are 60 points available in the bottom half.

If we’d turned up at Luton and won and got something on Sunday we’d be top and the table would look totally different. We have made bloody hard work of so many games this year though.

Anything we can take against the top teams is a bonus. I don’t think City under Pep have an amazing record against the top teams and Ferguson’s sides didn’t either but they would take almost everything available from the bottom half of the table.

[Draex]

I agree about players in form getting in the team over players out of form but what exactly has Gakpo done to get in ahead of Salah? I know Salah has been shite lately but atleast there is a chance of him having an impact on the game.

He created 3 big chances in 30mins against Palace, he actually broke lines by running with the ball.

Diaz/Nunez/Salah were all equally terrible btw. However Salah doesn't look fit, he is losing every single duel, his first touch is abysmal and then you get to the shooting.

[Draex]

I agree. It is more likely fatigue and the result of young lads like Quansah and Bradley playing way
more minutes than would have been planned for them pre-season.

Trent's injuries as well. This iteration of Klopp 2.0 is largely based on his skillset, flawed as this plan may be.

Right now, I'll take any win on Thursday, if we can also get 60 mins in Trent and Jota's legs. Yeah we've been pretty down since Sunday but lets fuckin force City to win out.

You never know if injury or fatigue is coming for them: a week of Real Madrid then Chelsea beings tackles, intensity and the possibility of mishaps.

Keep going lads.

We've played better when we had our kids playing, they were fearless, since all the experienced players have come back the complacency has crept in, could easily be nerves which is weird as fuck.

[Fromola]

The amount of defeats that top-10 teams suffer at home is pretty low - certainly against other top-10 sides. Man City won a treble last year and won very few top-10 games away from home. While it may cost Liverpool, it's not just a Liverpool issue. The league is extremely tough - which is just a fact.

The thing is though that's 7 or 8 games you're not winning if you're only winning 1 or 2 out of 9 (depending on whether we win at Villa).

You can carry that IF you're dominant against the bottom half and you pretty much win all your home games. We've dropped points in 4 home games though and then we have 3 away games against bottom half teams to come in a week and it's a tall order to see us winning all 3. City won 18 out of 20 last season against the bottom half and won 17 out of 19 at home. They won 28 out of 38 altogether (we'll win 27 if we win our last 6 which could still be enough) and probably 30 if they needed to beat Brentford and Brighton in the last week which they didn't. Unfortunately that's the standards required to win the league.

[AndyMuller]

They are shite but I think Chelsea will have a say in this.

[JackWard33]

Nothings changed in my thinking.

I'm certain that City win all their games.

Have you bet on it?
Because if I was CERTAIN of something that's an underdog to happen I'd go get me some of that sweet sweet free money

People are now under estimating the chances of City not winning the league
It's absolutely not done. It's the most likely outcome obviously but people are acting/talking like it's the only reasonable outcome

[JP-65]

They are shite but I think Chelsea will have a say in this.

Last 4, 6 & 8 form, Chelsea is running @ 2.0 ppg, so rounding into some form.

[JP-65]

We don’t need to be beating the top 10 teams to win the league, those games help but there are 60 points available in the bottom half.

If we’d turned up at Luton and won and got something on Sunday we’d be top and the table would look totally different. We have made bloody hard work of so many games this year though.

Anything we can take against the top teams is a bonus. I don’t think City under Pep have an amazing record against the top teams and Ferguson’s sides didn’t either but they would take almost everything available from the bottom half of the table.

LFC, City & Arsenal are all identical against the bottom half, all with 1 loss & 1 draw and 46 points from 17 played

We have the best record at home against the top 10 @ 2.3 ppg, City & Arsenal are both 2.0 ppg

It's away to the top 10 that we're weaker this season, currently 1.0 ppg vs City @ 1.6 ppg and Arsenal @ 1.3 ppg

[killer-heels]

Chelsea are unbeaten in 8 league games and have arguably the most in form player in the league.

[spider-neil]

I think we'll get three wins and bow out with CL football and a League Cup.
I'd have taken that if offered at the start of the season given the implosion last season and the midfield overhaul in the summer. Klopp deserves a better send off but it is what it is.

[lionel_messias]

I think we'll get three wins and bow out with CL football and a League Cup.
I'd have taken that if offered at the start of the season given the implosion last season and the midfield overhaul in the summer. Klopp deserves a better send off but it is what it is.

It's a chain reaction thing. Beat Fulham and we'll beat Everton.

Take it from there.

[cdav]

It's a chain reaction thing. Beat Fulham and we'll beat Everton.

Take it from there.

Thats the funny thing with form and finding goals hard to come by, all it takes is one to go in early for us off someone's arse and the pressure eases. A win and a performance on Thursday will really go some way to changing the mood before Fulham

[lionel_messias]

Thats the funny thing with form and finding goals hard to come by, all it takes is one to go in early for us off someone's arse and the pressure eases. A win and a performance on Thursday will really go some way to changing the mood before Fulham

Thank you and good night, pessimism can quickly turn into Klopptimism.

Imagine a little run of goals from Darwin, would be like an electric shock to everyone's nether regions,
and not in a Saudi Arabian punishment way either.

[Schmarn]

I think we're in danger of falling into the trap of overrating our performances when we win and underrating them when we lose. Was our performance on Sunday any worse than when we beat Luton, Fulham or Burnley at home or was the only real difference that we didn't take our chances.  I don't say that to suggest all is fine or that we're deeply flawed. We are a team in transition that has done brilliantly to be in this position.  I agree entirely with Fitzy that this also has nothing to do with Jurgen going.  We've actually performed better since he made his announcement with a (at times) threadbare squad.

The narrative as ever is warped by City's cheating. We know that dropping points is likely fatal so we're despondent but the reality is that we and Arsenal simply slipped up in a way that used to be entirely normal in a title race. Fergie's United would frequently drop a shocker (losing to Derby at home, Paolo Wanchope in 97) and it was all part of the twists and turns of a title race. All that has changed is that City don't do twists and turns as they are the semi-human embodiment of a cheat code.  Without them, this would be a thrilling title race between two of the country's historic clubs where each game carries the peril of dropped points. City have killed that. THAT is the real story and one you won't found written by football reporters, assisted by tribal fans of other clubs who scream the word "bottlers".

I have an Arsenal mate who is emotionally wrecked by Sunday and I've pointed out to him that it will drive you mad if you allow yourself to be driven by the City narrative. Just enjoy the fact that your team is excellent, win as many games as you can, and see where you end up. It isn't fair and it won't be until and unless the PL charges are upheld and City punished appropriately (i.e. stripped, relegated and their owners banished) which likely won't ever happen.  The alternative is to be perpetually miserable.

On that note I managed to pick up a hotel room in Dublin (cancellable admittedly) on the off chance we turn it around on Thursday and on the even remoter chance that I get a ticket.

[Sharado]

I think we'll get three wins and bow out with CL football and a League Cup.
I'd have taken that if offered at the start of the season given the implosion last season and the midfield overhaul in the summer. Klopp deserves a better send off but it is what it is.

That's where I am. It's infuriating because we've failed to beat a piss poor man united side [twice], a bang average italian side and crystal palace at home. Those games shouldn't be what rules you out of a title [or indeed an fa cup semi final against coventry]. But we are where we are. Enjoy what we have, don't worry about what we want. When he's gone it'll probably be even shitter, there's a cheery thought!

[kaesarsosei]

I was every bit as despondent at 630pm on Sunday as after the final day in 2019 and 2022. The fact that we had the worst result of our season, and then it was given more significance by Arsenal's blip has sickened me. Even a draw for us would have seemed a lot better by the time Arsenal lost.

We've been here before, 2 points behind City and now with an inferior goal difference as well. They have history of grinding it out and I don't see anything on their fixture list that would worry a City fan, aside from the cup competitions. This does not look like the slightly vulnerable City team from before Christmas, this looks like the relentless winning machine we are now sick of.

Not to be defeatist, but what I am thinking about now is just finishing ahead of Arsenal and who knows, maybe some retro-active punishment will eventually rule out these City titles. Also we still have to remember our team is ahead of schedule in a rebuild. And I'm really not trying to cry it in, but thank Fowler we have the League Cup so at least we have something to show for Klopp's final season. 2nd place and a trophy, if I'm honest, is more than I expected after last season.

[friendofrocky]

I think we're in danger of falling into the trap of overrating our performances when we win and underrating them when we lose. Was our performance on Sunday any worse than when we beat Luton, Fulham or Burnley at home or was the only real difference that we didn't take our chances.  I don't say that to suggest all is fine or that we're deeply flawed. We are a team in transition that has done brilliantly to be in this position.  I agree entirely with Fitzy that this also has nothing to do with Jurgen going.  We've actually performed better since he made his announcement with a (at times) threadbare squad.

The narrative as ever is warped by City's cheating. We know that dropping points is likely fatal so we're despondent but the reality is that we and Arsenal simply slipped up in a way that used to be entirely normal in a title race. Fergie's United would frequently drop a shocker (losing to Derby at home, Paolo Wanchope in 97) and it was all part of the twists and turns of a title race. All that has changed is that City don't do twists and turns as they are the semi-human embodiment of a cheat code.  Without them, this would be a thrilling title race between two of the country's historic clubs where each game carries the peril of dropped points. City have killed that. THAT is the real story and one you won't found written by football reporters, assisted by tribal fans of other clubs who scream the word "bottlers".

I have an Arsenal mate who is emotionally wrecked by Sunday and I've pointed out to him that it will drive you mad if you allow yourself to be driven by the City narrative. Just enjoy the fact that your team is excellent, win as many games as you can, and see where you end up. It isn't fair and it won't be until and unless the PL charges are upheld and City punished appropriately (i.e. stripped, relegated and their owners banished) which likely won't ever happen.  The alternative is to be perpetually miserable.

On that note I managed to pick up a hotel room in Dublin (cancellable admittedly) on the off chance we turn it around on Thursday and on the even remoter chance that I get a ticket.

This is spot on

[jillcwhomever]

I think we're in danger of falling into the trap of overrating our performances when we win and underrating them when we lose. Was our performance on Sunday any worse than when we beat Luton, Fulham or Burnley at home or was the only real difference that we didn't take our chances.  I don't say that to suggest all is fine or that we're deeply flawed. We are a team in transition that has done brilliantly to be in this position.  I agree entirely with Fitzy that this also has nothing to do with Jurgen going.  We've actually performed better since he made his announcement with a (at times) threadbare squad.

The narrative as ever is warped by City's cheating. We know that dropping points is likely fatal so we're despondent but the reality is that we and Arsenal simply slipped up in a way that used to be entirely normal in a title race. Fergie's United would frequently drop a shocker (losing to Derby at home, Paolo Wanchope in 97) and it was all part of the twists and turns of a title race. All that has changed is that City don't do twists and turns as they are the semi-human embodiment of a cheat code.  Without them, this would be a thrilling title race between two of the country's historic clubs where each game carries the peril of dropped points. City have killed that. THAT is the real story and one you won't found written by football reporters, assisted by tribal fans of other clubs who scream the word "bottlers".

I have an Arsenal mate who is emotionally wrecked by Sunday and I've pointed out to him that it will drive you mad if you allow yourself to be driven by the City narrative. Just enjoy the fact that your team is excellent, win as many games as you can, and see where you end up. It isn't fair and it won't be until and unless the PL charges are upheld and City punished appropriately (i.e. stripped, relegated and their owners banished) which likely won't ever happen.  The alternative is to be perpetually miserable.

On that note I managed to pick up a hotel room in Dublin (cancellable admittedly) on the off chance we turn it around on Thursday and on the even remoter chance that I get a ticket.

Great post. This is the issue because teams have to be near perfect now dropping any point becomes wildly frustrating for people and they find it hard to cope with. But like you say, you should be able to drop some points, it was always the way in the other title fights. It's the City situation that has skewed things overall and now you have to be near perfect whatever your situation. I have hated these title fights with City for that reason, it's just not doable for most other teams.

[UntouchableLuis]

Great post. This is the issue because teams have to be near perfect now dropping any point becomes wildly frustrating for people and they find it hard to cope with. But like you say, you should be able to drop some points, it was always the way in the other title fights. It's the City situation that has skewed things overall and now you have to be near perfect whatever your situation. I have hated these title fights with City for that reason, it's just not doable for most other teams.

What annoys me is that teams like Everton and United play out their absolute skin against us every season but you can guarantee City would beat Everton 7-0 if they played them next week.

We basically need a miracle every season to get 12 points from United and Everton in additional to around 6-10 points that the officials take off us.

City just aren't up against those obstacles In the same way.

[Crosby Nick]

We need Stockport and Oldham to get promoted to the Premier League so that City get to face some of their big rivals too.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

We need Stockport and Oldham to get promoted to the Premier League so that City get to face some of their big rivals too.

[Kopenhagen]

I think we're in danger of falling into the trap of overrating our performances when we win and underrating them when we lose. Was our performance on Sunday any worse than when we beat Luton, Fulham or Burnley at home or was the only real difference that we didn't take our chances.  I don't say that to suggest all is fine or that we're deeply flawed. We are a team in transition that has done brilliantly to be in this position.  I agree entirely with Fitzy that this also has nothing to do with Jurgen going.  We've actually performed better since he made his announcement with a (at times) threadbare squad.

The narrative as ever is warped by City's cheating. We know that dropping points is likely fatal so we're despondent but the reality is that we and Arsenal simply slipped up in a way that used to be entirely normal in a title race. Fergie's United would frequently drop a shocker (losing to Derby at home, Paolo Wanchope in 97) and it was all part of the twists and turns of a title race. All that has changed is that City don't do twists and turns as they are the semi-human embodiment of a cheat code.  Without them, this would be a thrilling title race between two of the country's historic clubs where each game carries the peril of dropped points. City have killed that. THAT is the real story and one you won't found written by football reporters, assisted by tribal fans of other clubs who scream the word "bottlers".

I have an Arsenal mate who is emotionally wrecked by Sunday and I've pointed out to him that it will drive you mad if you allow yourself to be driven by the City narrative. Just enjoy the fact that your team is excellent, win as many games as you can, and see where you end up. It isn't fair and it won't be until and unless the PL charges are upheld and City punished appropriately (i.e. stripped, relegated and their owners banished) which likely won't ever happen.  The alternative is to be perpetually miserable.

On that note I managed to pick up a hotel room in Dublin (cancellable admittedly) on the off chance we turn it around on Thursday and on the even remoter chance that I get a ticket.

Spot on.

[kennedy81]

We need Stockport and Oldham to get promoted to the Premier League so that City get to face some of their big rivals too.

Mightn't have to if they get relegated back where they belong.

It's ridiculous that we should feel out of it only 2 points behind with 6 to play. City have just warped the league beyond what should be normal.

[JP-65]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/insider/story/_/id/39949792/liverpool-premier-league-europa-league-defeats-klopp

[TheMightyReds]

We just run out of steam in the last few games. It's a combination of things rather than one thing only.

1. Tiredness and injuries.
2. Simply slowing down the game and being relaxed would help number 1. Composure. Look at Salah's finishes in the main, he would never hit the ball too hard. It is always with finesse, low as possible, waits calmly to last seconds. Feel some of the shots are careless lately.
3. Giving teams too much space in the final third.

I think we have a chance still but only if we win our games. Get through all the next 4 games and we have a very good chance still. Obviously the history of past years of losing on final days lingers but we can only win our games and then hope. As Paisley said, 'put it in the net and then we'll talk about the options'.

Don't give up.

[redk84]

I know everyone is happy being sad right now but lets take a collective breath
The worst happened, we lost at home....2 points in it, 2 games to win to put the most amount of pressure we can on them

Make them earn it atleast

[Haggis36]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/insider/story/_/id/39949792/liverpool-premier-league-europa-league-defeats-klopp

Interesting article that summarises what's been going on fairly well, and has both reasons for hope and concern. Basically we're wildly underperforming in front of goal, but even with the perceived "lack of clinicalness" from strikers, statistically that very likely will even out soon and keepers can't keep having blinders against us. At some point, the sheer volume of chances we create are going to start going in. However the quality of the chances we're conceding as a result of us not properly executed our high-risk style of play is concerning, particularly given that I think the tiredness in the squad is only going to exacerbate those problems.

One stat that jumped out to me is this one:
The average distance from goal on Liverpool's shots this season is 17.6 yards, tied for the farthest from goal of any team in the Premier League.

That does definitely point to a degree of obviously poor shot selection and wastefulness that I think is maybe more on the midfield than it is the attack.

[exiledintheUSA]

Interesting article that summarises what's been going on fairly well, and has both reasons for hope and concern. Basically we're wildly underperforming in front of goal, but even with the perceived "lack of clinicalness" from strikers, statistically that very likely will even out soon and keepers can't keep having blinders against us. At some point, the sheer volume of chances we create are going to start going in. However the quality of the chances we're conceding as a result of us not properly executed our high-risk style of play is concerning, particularly given that I think the tiredness in the squad is only going to exacerbate those problems.

One stat that jumped out to me is this one:
The average distance from goal on Liverpool's shots this season is 17.6 yards, tied for the farthest from goal of any team in the Premier League.

That does definitely point to a degree of obviously poor shot selection and wastefulness that I think is maybe more on the midfield than it is the attack.

We could do with 10 goals in the next 2 games.

[Wingman]

I think we're in danger of falling into the trap of overrating our performances when we win and underrating them when we lose. Was our performance on Sunday any worse than when we beat Luton, Fulham or Burnley at home or was the only real difference that we didn't take our chances.  I don't say that to suggest all is fine or that we're deeply flawed. We are a team in transition that has done brilliantly to be in this position.  I agree entirely with Fitzy that this also has nothing to do with Jurgen going.  We've actually performed better since he made his announcement with a (at times) threadbare squad.

The narrative as ever is warped by City's cheating. We know that dropping points is likely fatal so we're despondent but the reality is that we and Arsenal simply slipped up in a way that used to be entirely normal in a title race. Fergie's United would frequently drop a shocker (losing to Derby at home, Paolo Wanchope in 97) and it was all part of the twists and turns of a title race. All that has changed is that City don't do twists and turns as they are the semi-human embodiment of a cheat code.  Without them, this would be a thrilling title race between two of the country's historic clubs where each game carries the peril of dropped points. City have killed that. THAT is the real story and one you won't found written by football reporters, assisted by tribal fans of other clubs who scream the word "bottlers".

I have an Arsenal mate who is emotionally wrecked by Sunday and I've pointed out to him that it will drive you mad if you allow yourself to be driven by the City narrative. Just enjoy the fact that your team is excellent, win as many games as you can, and see where you end up. It isn't fair and it won't be until and unless the PL charges are upheld and City punished appropriately (i.e. stripped, relegated and their owners banished) which likely won't ever happen.  The alternative is to be perpetually miserable.

On that note I managed to pick up a hotel room in Dublin (cancellable admittedly) on the off chance we turn it around on Thursday and on the even remoter chance that I get a ticket.

Is right sir

[GreatEx]

If you're looking for hope, keep in mind that if we beat Fulham and Everton then we'll be 4 points ahead of City before they play again, away to Brighton. Two games in hand, but maybe the pressure would tell. Pressure on a robot, you say? Have you not seen the end of The Terminator?

[lionel_messias]

If you're looking for hope, keep in mind that if we beat Fulham and Everton then we'll be 4 points ahead of City before they play again, away to Brighton. Two games in hand, but maybe the pressure would tell. Pressure on a robot, you say? Have you not seen the end of The Terminator?

Can we just add to this that tonight City play Real Madrid, traditionally not an opponent who likes to lie down or go quietly without a fight. Bellingham and co can do some real damage.

And on Saturday Chelsea at Wembley. The batshit crazy Blues are both coming into form and contain some crazy tacklers like Enzo and Caicedo.

Let City take all the intensity and we'll see what they have left. The two CL ties tonight will tilt the balance for both City and Arsenal, the London boys a bit more so.