Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles

[KurtVerbose]

I never bought this 'when Matip and Lovren play we're unbeaten'. Even when they've played together we've conceded +1 goal a game.

I think Lovren should get a new contract, but we should be buying a better CB to try and push him out of the team. Then we make the team stronger and the squad.

In any case, there were collective mistakes yesterday, just as there are on most goals. We don't seem to be getting better at this.

[redk84]

The thing where we make a mistake defensively, for it then to lead to another mistake and another and more often than not us conceding a goal......after having very little to worry about for large parts of the game....really needs to fucking stop. I don't know what it is, lack of focus, panic, weak mentality, whatever you wanna call it just fucking address it.

[Geezer08]

As soon as the football gods realised Lovren + Matip were on an unbeaten run, they were quick to work their magic. Nothing better than a Benteke brace to kill the good mood around us.

Sometimes it feels like no matter who's defending, we'll still concede (no news here). A prime Nesta would look distinctively rubbish for us etcetera...

Ha, a prime Nesta would never have been wrong sided so easily for the first goal, Cabaye just strolled past him. Lovren's passing and clearances are so poor it often leaves him and the team in troubles. A few examples in the first half and a very big one leading up to there second goal.

[Carra-ton]

Allardyce's analysis after the game -
“From start to finish we were exceptionally good tactically,” he said. “We came as underdogs and set out a game plan. With our limited possession, we exposed Liverpool’s weaknesses time and time again and that’s why we were able to recover. If you look at what Liverpool created from open play there was very little. Coutinho’s free-kick was a wonder goal.”

Allardyce was asked to clarify what me meant by Liverpool’s “weaknesses.”

“Liverpool play a superb attacking style,” he reminded. “It means both full backs go high up the pitch. [Joel] Matip and [Dejan] Lovren are very exposed. If you get the right runners, they are both big men that don’t like running towards their own goal. That’s how our equaliser came with Cabaye picking up space. Then our winner: Liverpool are pretty weak, having conceded six already from corners. Now it’s seven.”

Allardyce: "On the corners everyone knows Liverpool are pretty weak. They conceded 6 off corners which we told the lads about. It’s now 7."




Thing is , if everyone knows about it, why is it that we can't fix it. Allardyce improved a relegation fodder team's defence. If Klopp can't get us defending corners, then maybe the questions are at certain time going to be asked of him. It doesn't take millionaire superstars to stop corners from going in for goals. We have conceded record breaking goals from corners this season, only Watford and one more team have conceded more.
This is an organization failure, the responsibility which lies with the coach. I can accept in open play, we concede goal, it might be due to limited defensive ability of the defenders, but conceding from direct corners so many times, is a basics issue, and one which is easily fixable even by a lower league coach.

[KurtVerbose]

^ Agree with the above. It's not like there's no height in the side either.

[Funky_Gibbons]

^ Agree with the above. It's not like there's no height in the side either.

We're the lowest team for height and weight in the league;



Although that doesn't explain the lack of organisation and leadership from set-pieces. What Lucas was doing for the second goal yesterday is anyones guess, one of our most experienced players leaving his zone and giving Benteke loads of space to attack.

[KurtVerbose]

We're the lowest team for height and weight in the league;

Ok - I'm not sure who they include in that team. I suspect it's not including Can and Lucas, both of whom played yesterday.

[killer-heels]

We're the lowest team for height and weight in the league;



Although that doesn't explain the lack of organisation and leadership from set-pieces. What Lucas was doing for the second goal yesterday is anyones guess, one of our most experienced players leaving his zone and giving Benteke loads of space to attack.

So we have Mignolet, Matip, Lovren, Can yesterday. Lucas is good in the air, Origi is pretty tall and Milner is hardly a short arse, neither is Firmino.

What do we do then? Bomb out Coutinho, Clyne and Wijnaldum?

[Funky_Gibbons]

Ok - I'm not sure who they include in that team. I suspect it's not including Can and Lucas, both of whom played yesterday.

It's an average based on the whole squad.

[harleydanger]

Our weakness at set pieces has nothing to do with height or weight.  Can see that by simply looking at the 7 goals we've conceded from them.

[GreatEx]

Lucas and Milner are both below the 178-and-a-bit centimetre average shown on that graph. Strange that they've been pointed out as examples of players who "aren't that short". Maybe they just look big when stood next to the other dwarfs.

[Funky_Gibbons]

So we have Mignolet, Matip, Lovren, Can yesterday. Lucas is good in the air, Origi is pretty tall and Milner is hardly a short arse, neither is Firmino.

What do we do then? Bomb out Coutinho, Clyne and Wijnaldum?

As I said at the bottom of that post, the lack of height is only part of the problem.

Look at Lucas for that second goal, moves out of his zone giving Benteke space to attack. That's one of our most senior players switching off there. We're not disciplined enough when defending set-pieces.

[CallumLFC]

We're the lowest team for height and weight in the league;



Although that doesn't explain the lack of organisation and leadership from set-pieces. What Lucas was doing for the second goal yesterday is anyones guess, one of our most experienced players leaving his zone and giving Benteke loads of space to attack.

Oh joy, Watford next.

Defending set pieces against them should be a riot.

[tubby]

Oh joy, Watford next.

Defending set pieces against them should be a riot.

Most of that weight is just Deeney.

[CallumLFC]

Credit to Tomkins for compiling that data. I've been calling our squad soft all season. It seems like that should be used in a literal sense. We really have stockpiled a squad of scrawny fuckers.

I've admired Spurs all season for how hardened they are compared to us, and not surprisingly that graph has them right smack in the middle with the perfect balance of not too much or too less.

[mrantarctica]

Not sure it is a pure height and weight thing. I think it is more to do with technique, positioning, anticipation and mentality. A lot of our players just seem like they get dominated in physical contests. I'd say Gini is probably the only player who I've seen consistently out-muscling his opposite number. Too often we're seeing our centre halves or fullbacks being bullied by faster players, or stronger players, or players with better jump/leap. A lot of these athletes are very similar - I can't imagine it is purely down to physical qualities, I think there is probably more to it.

[JackWard33]

Given that there's almost no causative link between height and weight and success in football compiling that data and discussing it is probably a phenomenal waste of time

[kingz]

Thing about Lovren is there is a difference between being a poor defender and being a poor defender in our team.

As we've seen from day one he has too much space to defend in our team and he's simply not good enough to do it - very few defenders are. It doesn't necessarily make him a poor defender, in my opinion if you put him in Luiz's place at Chelsea they still win the league with him, but just like Luiz he is gonna struggle if the space they have to defend is much bigger than when you're in a back 3.

It takes an elite decision making and ability to read the play in order to be error free defending in our team , or even City and Arsenal for that matter. It something we have to consider if we want to call him a poor defender which he isn't but we need better if we want to win the league playing with Klopp's style.

Is the system the reason he did this ?..

https://twitter.com/lfcfanscorner/status/856530007577030658

[HeartAndSoul]

I don't think this zonal marking is really working out too well when we defend corners. Every time we defend a corner I'm shitting brick. Would like to know our percentage of corners that we concede from, how many times the opposition wins the first ball etc, bet it'd make for pretty grim reading. I remember Klopp on monday night football (sky sports) going into details on how we defend set pieces. I wonder if teams looked at that and have found a way of exploiting it even more.

Maybe give man to man marking a go and see how we get on. This way at least you'll be able to tell who's losing their man constantly.

[SerbianScouser]

Is the system the reason he did this ?..

It is actually. There's no cover from the fullback , he's trying to defend in a big space against a pacy forward and of course he makes a bonehead decision to try to clear the danger with his head. You put him in a team like Palace where he's always protected by fullbacks and DMs and he can defend properly but he can't do it in our team as he's simply not good enough.

We need another outstanding defender like Matip if we want to have a good defensive record with our style of play.

[SerbianScouser]

Maybe give man to man marking a go and see how we get on. This way at least you'll be able to tell who's losing their man constantly.

Klopp said on MNF he could do man-marking in Dortmund because he had tall players but here he has to be creative. I think that defender we're after would solve the problem for us.

[harryc]

Is the system the reason he did this ?..

https://twitter.com/lfcfanscorner/status/856530007577030658

Bloody hell, dont know why I am shocked though!

[harryc]

It is actually. There's no cover from the fullback , he's trying to defend in a big space against a pacy forward and of course he makes a bonehead decision to try to clear the danger with his head. You put him in a team like Palace where he's always protected by fullbacks and DMs and he can defend properly but he can't do it in our team as he's simply not good enough.

We need another outstanding defender like Matip if we want to have a good defensive record with our style of play.

Matip is decent defender, a bit early to describe him as outstanding defender we just need someone else to partner him instead of Lovren.

[Cid]

The coach plays his part but you need a defensive leader on the pitch too.  He should be the one spotting mismatches, keeping people on drill and taking the initiative when every corner comes in.  Used to be Carra, Agger or Hyppia, Even Sakho did it at times last season.

Our back 4 don't really talk anymore, or are unqualified.  Matip is quality, but doesn't seem the leadership type, Lovren is a flawed player and wouldn't know where to start...We need a big booming CB who will control the line, drag players where he wants them and tears them to bits every damn time they make a mistake, whether it leads to a goal or not.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Is the system the reason he did this ?..

https://twitter.com/lfcfanscorner/status/856530007577030658

You don't think that's partly the fault of our system?

[kingz]

You don't think that's partly the fault of our system?

What exactly? the poor pass or the flying squirrel impression instead of staying on his feet ?..

[killer-heels]

You don't think that's partly the fault of our system?

He gives the ball away and then madly tries to win a header and misses with that header. It was a mad, rush of blood incident that Lovren is used to.

[liverpool185]

Is the system the reason he did this ?..

https://twitter.com/lfcfanscorner/status/856530007577030658

Honestly what on earth is this guy fucking thinking trying to play a dumb pass like that, then to top it off one of the worst pieces of defending I have ever seen. He is a complete and utter liability who has cost this side so many goals and points this season with his dumb defending, if he get's a new contract i'm going to be so mad at Klopp.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Lovren created the situation with his panic pass. There's a big space to defend because he gave the ball away with an idiotic pass with the whole team in attacking positions. His fault.

[reddebs]

Jurgen does know how to set up and coach a good defence, just look at Dortmunds goals conceded both season's they won the title compared to the previous 3.

I don't know if he brought in different players to achieve it or whether something else changed to make it work better but I'm sure we'll get there just like they did.

[Funky_Gibbons]

What exactly? the poor pass or the flying squirrel impression instead of staying on his feet ?..

Two centre backs both being pressed without another red shirt within 30-yards. No one in midfield has dropped to receive a pass. Both full backs pushed high up the pitch meaning the only out ball is a risky 30-yard ball to Milner. It's a shite pass and worse recovery but our system helped created the situation.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Two centre backs both being pressed without another red shirt within 30-yards. No one in midfield has dropped to receive a pass. Both full backs pushed high up the pitch meaning the only out ball is a risky 30-yard ball to Milner. It's a shite pass and worse recovery but our system helped created the situation.

I think it is a failure of the players and not the system that not one of three CMs was dropping deep to give the safe option. Once they have got caught upfield like that Lovren should be more than experienced enough to see that there is nothing on and go long to Origi. The ball he tries to play is utterly brainless. Then just as he used to do at the beginning of his LFC career he then made a bad mistake even worse by panicking and launching himself at a ball he was never going to win.

It doesn't matter what system you play, if players make poor decisions like that you're going to concede goals.

[naka]

Two centre backs both being pressed without another red shirt within 30-yards. No one in midfield has dropped to receive a pass. Both full backs pushed high up the pitch meaning the only out ball is a risky 30-yard ball to Milner. It's a shite pass and worse recovery but our system helped created the situation.

Tbf we are extremely open at home to a fast counter attack
Swansea was similar
Corners well that's just a 4 year continuous joke where this team is concerned
Too many fancy dans
We struggled even with Brendan
Sometimes we need to play smart and shore up the defence against teams that just lump it up. I watched the Rael/ Barca game and the difference tactically between liverpools game and it was night and day.
Against the top half in the premiership teams play football, against the rest it's kick and rush, yet we try the same tactics for both types of game.

[Thats So Dimitar]

Think there was also a failing from the fullback there. The ball was in the air for a good few seconds but doesn't start running back until the ball is actually won by the opposition.

What is he waiting for exactly? You get taught as a kid to come to the ball and it was pretty obvious it wouldn't reach him.

[joekim87]

That clip of Lovren is comedy gold. Pity he is our starting centre back...

[kingz]

Found this and it seems interesting but also confusing.. According to this numbers our defense is great yet somehow 14 teams conceded less big chances than us ..



Chances conceded ( Center ) : only Man Utd , Arsenal , Spurs, City conceded less  ..

Chances conceded ( left ) : only City conceded less ..

Chances conceded ( Right ) : no team conceded less chances thru the right zone than us ..


Only Chelsea and Man Utd conceded less goals attempts ..

Big Chances conceded ( A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range )  :  14 teams conceded less big chances ....

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Two centre backs both being pressed without another red shirt within 30-yards. No one in midfield has dropped to receive a pass. Both full backs pushed high up the pitch meaning the only out ball is a risky 30-yard ball to Milner. It's a shite pass and worse recovery but our system helped created the situation.

There are plenty other options apart from the one he chose. The obvious one is to turn and play it back to Mignolet. Another is to hit it in to space on our left side. But he panicked. First with the pass, then when he realised he fucked up, again, he panicked again trying to win it back. He created that all by himself, not the system.

[Fairytale of 2005]

I don't think we can obtain the ideal squad in just this one window. I wouldn't be too unhappy if we only brought in defensive players. None of Mignolet, Lovren, Moreno, Klavan and Lucas are consistently good enough and Milner isn't even a defender. Until this is fixed, we will flatter to deceive.

[killer-heels]

I don't think we can obtain the ideal squad in just this one window. I wouldn't be too unhappy if we only brought in defensive players. None of Mignolet, Lovren, Moreno, Klavan and Lucas are consistently good enough and Milner isn't even a defender. Until this is fixed, we will flatter to deceive.

The defence is important but there is absolutely no way we can go into next season with 4 midfielders for 3 positions, 2 wingers and strikers where 1 is never fit.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

A Mané type player is needed indeed. A proper striker too, no question. Add a CM who can cover the CB's when the fullbacks are pushed up, or use Henderson/Can here and add a midfielder with a good passing range who can set the tempo for us, an Alonso type. Add also a CB and a left back. That's quite a shopping list.