Author Topic: Doping In Sport..  (Read 130141 times)

Offline LF

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #200 on: August 1, 2012, 03:59:58 pm »
Maybe because its swimming and not weightlifting you dont find it as suspicious?

maybe i read her report was clean

Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #201 on: August 1, 2012, 04:34:41 pm »
I'm just very sceptical of any performance which looks on the face of it extraordinary.

for two reasons I have been involved in elite sport myself, and have been drug tested, and that aside I have a very good understanding of the way in which performance enhancing drugs are used in sport.

Secondly history has shown that in many many cases, when something looks to good to be true it often is, and this isn't often revealed until years, sometimes decades have passed.

For what its worth, I do hope she is clean.

And is anyone clean at elite level?

I doubt it very much.
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Offline justsean

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #202 on: August 1, 2012, 06:01:12 pm »
Slightly off topic but anyone know where I can watch a video of her performance?

I've been googling and youtubeing for nearly an hour now and have found nothing.

Help would be much appreciated   :wave

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #203 on: August 1, 2012, 06:06:04 pm »
Slightly off topic but anyone know where I can watch a video of her performance?

I've been googling and youtubeing for nearly an hour now and have found nothing.

Help would be much appreciated   :wave
BBC iPlayer maybe.
Exercise is to the body what reading is to the mind.

"If I hadn't doped, I would never have won". "Doping improves your performance between 5 and 7 per cent, and maybe 10 to 12 per cent when you are in a peak shape.

"Doping isn't addictive but it's an instrument of power: whoever wins attracts the money; for themselves, the team and the sponsors"

Offline snoop123

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #204 on: August 1, 2012, 06:16:53 pm »
And is anyone clean at elite level?

I doubt it very much.

Depends what u mean by elite level, the winners or those getting to the olympics. Getting to the olympics alone in certain sports like athletics, swimming etc which are highly competitive is an enormous achievement.

Well some are clean, I know that for a fact as I am good friends with some. But there are many who are undoubtedly dirty. Depending on who you listen to, some in the know claim its as high as 60% of olympic finalists who are dirty.

One thing is for sure, its more likely to be the winners who are cheating rather than the also rans.
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Offline AnyGivenSunday

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #205 on: August 1, 2012, 06:55:04 pm »
maybe i read her report was clean

The whole spectre of sport is watching the best perform their best, and when records are broken, or smashed, it makes for a great spectacle.  Athletes should be praised whenever they achieve such a feat and when accusations of doping are automatically thrown around it is only right that the athlete is given the benefit of the doubt.  However, the young Chinese swimmer's performance was truly astonishing and somewhat justifiably raises suspicions.  Sadly and unfortunately for both spectators and clean athletes alike, using the "never failed a drugs test" isn't a decisive blow to the sceptics.  After all, Marion Jones never failed a drugs test.

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #206 on: August 1, 2012, 07:01:00 pm »
Slightly off topic but anyone know where I can watch a video of her performance?

I've been googling and youtubeing for nearly an hour now and have found nothing.

Help would be much appreciated   :wave

200m medley: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19072219

400m medley: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/2012/live-video/p00w2t3f?tc=2012-07-28T19%3A16%3A05-00%3A00
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Offline snoop123

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #207 on: August 1, 2012, 07:14:57 pm »
The whole spectre of sport is watching the best perform their best, and when records are broken, or smashed, it makes for a great spectacle.  Athletes should be praised whenever they achieve such a feat and when accusations of doping are automatically thrown around it is only right that the athlete is given the benefit of the doubt.  However, the young Chinese swimmer's performance was truly astonishing and somewhat justifiably raises suspicions.  Sadly and unfortunately for both spectators and clean athletes alike, using the "never failed a drugs test" isn't a decisive blow to the sceptics.  After all, Marion Jones never failed a drugs test.

Agreed, its not the fact that the chinese girl has broken the record, and done it in an outstanding way to.
The real issue is that there has been such widespread drug use across so many sports, that people just don't believe what they are seeing anymore.

Some of the most memorable sporting images, such as Ben Johnson destroying Carl Lewis in Seoul have are now associated with drug use, rather than sporting excellence. The public have believed such feats, and then been stung far too many times in the past, so now scepticism towards a great sporting achievement is now almost expected. Its a really sad state of affairs to be honest
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Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #208 on: August 5, 2012, 11:06:51 pm »
Agreed, its not the fact that the chinese girl has broken the record, and done it in an outstanding way to.
The real issue is that there has been such widespread drug use across so many sports, that people just don't believe what they are seeing anymore.

Some of the most memorable sporting images, such as Ben Johnson destroying Carl Lewis in Seoul have are now associated with drug use, rather than sporting excellence. The public have believed such feats, and then been stung far too many times in the past, so now scepticism towards a great sporting achievement is now almost expected. Its a really sad state of affairs to be honest

The only thing that has changed is the public knowledge of what is going on. Athletes, have doped in the past, are doping at present and will dope in the future.
It is human nature.
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Offline Alf

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #209 on: August 5, 2012, 11:14:37 pm »
Personally I don't think having the likes of Dwain Chambers & Justin Gatlin does the credibility of athletics any good. You can tell when they ask Michael Johnson about them he feels uncomfortable about having them in the sport.

Offline Armand9

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #210 on: August 6, 2012, 01:54:03 am »
I know chambers got a good reception but there's no way i'd have cheered for him had i been there and Gatlin's bronze means nothing to me - clearly does to him, obviously - i don't trust the guy one bit, regardless of whether he passes a doping test or not. Getting caught once is bad enough but twice? It's a pity Gay didn't dip at the line, he might have got that bronze.
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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #211 on: August 6, 2012, 06:33:30 am »
I haven't contributed at all to the discussion, but do you think if athletes are busted once that it should be a lifetime ban?

Yes
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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #212 on: August 6, 2012, 08:08:28 pm »
Defending Olympic powerwalker from italy thrown out after testing positive for EPO. He even came clean and admitting to abusing it as well

Offline WorldChampions

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #213 on: August 6, 2012, 08:14:44 pm »
Thick as pig shit if he thought he would get away with it.

Offline Crouched

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #214 on: August 6, 2012, 08:32:04 pm »
Genius this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19152611

Judoka Nicholas Delpopolo has been expelled from London 2012 after he failed a drugs test and admitted he had unwittingly eaten marijuana-laced food.

The 23-year-old American had finished seventh in the men's -73kg competition.
Delpopolo was disqualified by the International Olympic Committee  after they discovered metabolites of cannabis in a urine sample taken on 30 July.
He insisted he had not known the food contained the banned substance but that was not deemed a sufficient defence.
Delpopolo was tested after he lost to Mongolian Nyam-Ochir Sainjargal in the repechage stage at the ExCel Arena.
The IOC's ruling dictated that his name should be struck from the judo records in London and the International Judo Federation  should consider issuing any further punishments available in their rulebook.
Delpopolo had waived his right to a hearing in the case and is due to return home to the United States on 7 August.
According to the IOC, the Serbian-born judoka "indicated that he was embarrassed by this mistake".
He has apologised to the United States Olympic Committee and his team-mates.
More than 1,000 blood and urine tests have been carried out at the state-of-the-art testing facility built especially for the Games in Essex.
The IOC confirmed that four other athletes had returned positive samples so far during the current Olympics.
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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #215 on: August 7, 2012, 12:02:57 am »
I haven't contributed at all to the discussion, but do you think if athletes are busted once that it should be a lifetime ban? Would certainly make the ones considering taking the risk, think twice.

I kept my feeling out of the olympics thread but...

yes I do, i was an athlete in the 80's as a kid (11-20 years old) from 100m to 1500m and i watched all the golden leagues etc, i watched the '84 Olympics in awe as a 14/15 year old, and then watched the 88 olympics and saw Johnson blitz the field in 9.79, fucking hell it was like watching Bolt in this era.  Then it all came falling down.  I fucking hated it; and i've fucking hated it ever since.  Trouble is there are WR in the mens and womens events that are still standing that i feel shouldn't be there. 

One failed test you get a 4 year ban, a second you get a lifetime ban in my opinion.  As for Gatlin he can fuck off, i hated watch him tarnish that podium tonight with Bolt and Blake (even if Chambers had been there i would have been uncomfortable)


Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #216 on: August 7, 2012, 12:09:29 am »
Genius this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19152611

Judoka Nicholas Delpopolo has been expelled from London 2012 after he failed a drugs test and admitted he had unwittingly eaten marijuana-laced food.

The 23-year-old American had finished seventh in the men's -73kg competition.
Delpopolo was disqualified by the International Olympic Committee  after they discovered metabolites of cannabis in a urine sample taken on 30 July.
He insisted he had not known the food contained the banned substance but that was not deemed a sufficient defence.
Delpopolo was tested after he lost to Mongolian Nyam-Ochir Sainjargal in the repechage stage at the ExCel Arena.
The IOC's ruling dictated that his name should be struck from the judo records in London and the International Judo Federation  should consider issuing any further punishments available in their rulebook.
Delpopolo had waived his right to a hearing in the case and is due to return home to the United States on 7 August.
According to the IOC, the Serbian-born judoka "indicated that he was embarrassed by this mistake".
He has apologised to the United States Olympic Committee and his team-mates.
More than 1,000 blood and urine tests have been carried out at the state-of-the-art testing facility built especially for the Games in Essex.
The IOC confirmed that four other athletes had returned positive samples so far during the current Olympics.

Why is cannabis a banned substance? There's nothing performance enhancing about it, unless your playing FIFA maybe.

I haven't contributed at all to the discussion, but do you think if athletes are busted once that it should be a lifetime ban? Would certainly make the ones considering taking the risk, think twice.

Too harsh for me. Everyone should get one chance at least to redeem themselves. There'll also be cases like the above where an athlete was just stupid.
« Last Edit: August 7, 2012, 12:11:29 am by Bob Loblaw »

Offline Devon Red

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #217 on: August 7, 2012, 09:12:46 am »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19116749

Interesting article breaking down the statistics of Ye Shiwen's performance.

Offline kaz1983

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #218 on: August 8, 2012, 07:51:33 am »
Anybody here trying to understand the Lance saga, what the USADA/WADA bodies are in change off in the sport of cycling in the the USA and if they do end up finding Armstrong guilty will that directly mean that all  TdF's will be stripped from him or will the TdF being in a separate country and run by a private body take a different veiw on the matter? ... it's crossed my mind but all the talk and rightfully so is if Armstrong doped or was he clean not will Armstrong be stripped of his titles if he his proved to have doped by the USADA (an American sporting body) -in case ur wondering I believe he doped- like me you, might wanna read these posts:

Quote
"De jure", in law, is contrasted with "de facto", in fact, here. At the risk of belaboring the obvious, France is an independent jurisdiction from the one in which USADA exercises authority. TdF is a private organization operating within France. Any obligations TdF would have to act on the basis of USADA ruling would derive, ultimately, from contracts between TdF and other entities or from international agreements between France and other countries.

If you have trouble seeing this, ask yourself whether the U.S. Congress could pass a law tomorrow that would revoke Armstrong's victories in the Tour of France, or, for that matter, whether Congress could make a law that would alter the winner of the last Tour of Flanders, in the way that Congress passing a law raising minimum wage in the U.S. would raise the minimum wage in the U.S. There's nothing special about cycling, the WADA, or the way these are "organized on the international level" that gives USADA de jure power over TdF.

My further point is that UCI and the TdF are non-American organizations that have their own interests. I don't know what UCI and TdF would do if presented with some USADA ruling about Armstrong, but it would not surprise me if they took a different view about whether any of Armstrong's victories should be revoked from USADA's, or if they did not agree about whether they had to do exactly what USADA said. (Note that the previous is the right way to put the point, as opposed to USADA itself "revoking" victories in the TdF.)

Perhaps it's that speculation you're skeptical about. That's fine, but it's not quite apt to describe speculation you think unlikely as "factually incorrect", inasmuch as it is speculation, after all, not a description. Still, I would repeat that the Tour risks being raised to whole new heights of ridicule if it revokes the wins from 99-05. It would have had maybe four legitimate winners in fourteen years in that case. It's naive to think that this fact would not matter to TdF or to UCI in responding to any USADA ruling.

That said, I don't expect that USADA would go that far, in part simply because it would be such an extraordinary thing to do. We'll see, though.
Quote
I think something about Lance Armstrong just creates mental roadblocks in discussion.

The USADA is a creation of the U.S. Congress, which obviously can delegate no more powers to USADA than it has itself.

If the Congress could really create sub-entities that could speak in France with the power of French law they would not save this extraordinary power for cycling. They would create a USADA equivalent that would issue rulings in disputes between, say, Boeing and Airbus. Why bother with all of the delicate negotiations between nations on issues of trade when you could just appeal to some domestic entity that has, all by itself, the power to bind Airbus in France by its decisions?

The U.S. can't do that, of course, and neither can it do something like that in professional cycling. So, ultimately, the relationship between TdF and UCI on the one hand and USADA on the other turns on contracts and international agreements.

I know little about the details of those agreements, as I've said all along, having just read a few articles on the subject. I don't know what is the likely outcome, ultimately, of an adverse ruling from USADA on Armstrong's Tour record. It might be that UCI and TdF just take the relevant agreements to be so important to uphold that there would be no question that they would revoke Armstrong's victories if USADA said to do so. Maybe, but, again, as I’ve tried to say, UCI and TdF are different entities with different interests than USADA.

I do know that USADA does not have any direct jurisdiction over the TdF, though. I also know that press releases from USADA or even lines from news stories suggesting otherwise can't be true.


Offline red_bird

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #219 on: August 8, 2012, 04:51:57 pm »
Thanks for the article.

Being a chinese, i understand and i think it's only normal for people to raise question when Ye has won the medals with such dominance, due to the bad history with the Chinese swimming team in the past.

But what has disturbed me the most, is simply the efforts that have been put in shortly after the event, without any solid research on the personal history or stats, and the arrogance the Nature's editor has shown in this "apology"

http://www.nature.com/news/why-great-olympic-feats-raise-suspicions-1.11109?nc=1343914187752

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19116749

Interesting article breaking down the statistics of Ye Shiwen's performance.

And i do agree what snoop123 said in his earlier post, it's really a sad state of affairs.
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Offline kennedy81

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #220 on: August 10, 2012, 10:40:36 pm »
Quote
Olympics athletics: Asli Cakir wins women's 1500m for Turkey
By Tom Fordyce Chief sports writer, in the Olympic Stadium

Turkey's Asli Cakir won Olympic 1500m gold in a slow, messy race as Britain's Lisa Dobriskey finished down in 10th.

Cakir, banned for two years in 2006 for doping, clocked four minutes 10.23 seconds, ahead of compatriot Gamze Bulut and Bahrain's Maryam Yusuf Jamal.

USA's Morgan Uceny tripped and fell in a second consecutive global final.

After a pedestrian 75-second first lap the pace picked up with 600m to go, stretching the field and cutting adrift Britons Dobriskey and Laura Weightman.

Cakir went to the front and the 26-year-old held on down the home straight as Jamal tied up.

Bulut, 20, has enjoyed an extraordinary improvement over the past year, dropping her 1500m personal best from 4:18 to 4:01. ( ::))

Her rapid advance culminated in a silver medal that few could have predicted last summer.

With Russia's Tatyana Tomashova, who returned from a two-year doping ban last summer, coming through to claim fourth, it was a race that drew few plaudits from the 80,000 aficionados in the capacity Olympic Stadium crowd.

Dobriskey, world 1500m silver medallist in 2009, has once again struggled with injury this year and found the injection of pace too much.

But Weightman, at just 21, will take great pleasure at making the Olympic final in her breakthrough year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18916219


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Offline BFM

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #221 on: August 10, 2012, 10:47:37 pm »
I haven't contributed at all to the discussion, but do you think if athletes are busted once that it should be a lifetime ban? Would certainly make the ones considering taking the risk, that don't have the best doctors that are capable of keeping measures of their performance enhancing substances below banned thresholds think twice.
"Doping", which is a poorly chosen word, trivialises the complexity between legal and banned substances.
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Offline kennedy81

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #222 on: August 10, 2012, 11:41:02 pm »
"Doping", which is a poorly chosen word, trivialises the complexity between legal and banned substances.

I've never heard anyone refer to using perfectly legal substances as 'doping'.
Maybe some people do, but the word has such negative connotations, I'd be surprised to hear anyone say they were doping, if they meant the use of legal substances.

Offline kennedy81

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #223 on: August 11, 2012, 12:24:16 am »
an interesting, if depressing, read...


Quote
Doping at the Olympics: should we ignore the party spoilers?

By his own account, Usain Bolt is now a living legend – a verdict endorsed by most sports experts, and surely by the thousands of people who applauded his victory in the 200m final at the London Games on Thursday. Like them, I was impressed after watching Bolt retain his Olympic titles in the 100m and 200m races. And like some of them at least, I was rather disappointed by the news reports this morning of the feud between him and another legendary athlete, Carl Lewis. Bolt was quoted as saying that he had “lost all respect” for Lewis, who a few years ago had raised doubts about the purity of the performances by Bolt and other Jamaican runners, arguing that their country lacked an adequate drug-testing program.

Leaving aside the individual case of Bolt and Jamaica (whose specific drug-testing procedures were defended as adequate by Sebastian Coe, the chief organizer of the London Olympics), the question whether some athletic feat was partly due to the use of performance-enhancing drugs regularly resurfaces at top sporting events like the Olympics. This year, however, I thought (naïvely?) that I could put that concern to one side. After all, the London Games involve the biggest anti-doping operation in Olympic history, with 6000 samples being taken and every medal winner tested. Surely this means that no top athletes can get away with using a banned substance at the Olympics, unless they had access to a special product that defied all drug tests? If so, the main performances there seem reasonably beyond suspicion.

Some further internet research, however, suggested that my layman’s reasoning might be too simple. I quickly stumbled upon the name of Victor Conte, former owner of the infamous BALCO laboratory at the centre of a scandal in the mid 00’s, when an investigation by the United States Anti-Doping Agency uncovered that it had provided banned substances to a number of athletes, including sprinters Dwain Chambers and Marion Jones. Now presenting himself as an anti-doping crusader, Conte claims that the drug-testing program at the current Olympics is inadequate. He estimates the proportion of athletes at the Olympics who use performance-enhancing drugs at about 60 %. Testing athletes at the Games, he suggests, is simply too late to be useful:


    "When you build your explosive strength and speed and power base is October-November-December. Eight months later, they’re winning gold medals based on the drugs they used nine months ago. So you don’t need to be testing at the Games… You need to stick your hook and line and pole in the pond during this time frame. I know, because I was preparing people this way."

(http://www.sfgate.com/sports/ostler/article/Victor-Conte-says-Olympic-doping-goes-on-3707871.php#ixzz239gmqMza)

 
A spokesman for the International Olympic committee is quoted as responding to Conte’s remarks that these were “like a poacher criticising a gamekeeper”. Why would any sensible person take anti-doping policy advice from someone who precisely spent some time in prison for helping athletes cheat?

It is understandable that the IOC should want to distance itself from a convicted felon. Given his reputation, they might also not feel the need to offer any substantial reply to his claims. Nevertheless, Conte’s past is exactly what gives us reason to listen to him. The best way to learn about effective ways of burglarizing a house, and devising adequate protections against these, is to ask a former burglar. Ex-hackers are often the most helpful advisers when it comes to computer security. While he was still on the dark side of the doping business, Conte seems to have been quite good at what he was doing. Marion Jones, for instance, did not test positive for the drugs that BALCO provided her with. Accordingly, some prominent figures in the world of sports are taking him seriously. Dick Pound, a former head of the World Anti-Doping Agency, is thus quoted as saying that “as somebody on the inside [Conte]’s probably more likely to know than we are” about the proportion of athletes who are doping. His own estimate of that proportion does not sound particularly optimistic either: “It’s north of 10 and short of 90 [percent]…but it’s more than people expect”.

To some extent, we have the IOC’s word against Conte’s. Our interest in enjoying the Olympics might naturally lead us to side with the former. However, I do think that its members need to take Conte’s challenge more seriously. So far, they have been content with telling us to stop being suspicious and to just enjoy the Games: “We really have to give the athletes the benefit of the doubt here. Where there’s evidence, where we’ve done testing and catch them, and they’re cheats, let’s kick them out, but while they’re doing great things, let’s support them.” Sure, but Conte’s point is precisely that adequate testing hasn’t been done and therefore that the vast majority of cheats are not getting caught. He also proposes solutions on how to improve the situation. We therefore want to know: is he just a calumniator with a hidden agenda and are his solutions flawed, or have they already been implemented, in which case it would be good to have a clear demonstration of this? Or is he right? In which case steps should be taken, if possible, to suitably reform anti-doping procedures.

Hopefully we will hear some further clarifications from Olympic officials on this issue in the future. Simply brushing it off means encouraging viewers to suspect that the principle of fair competition is being routinely violated at the Olympics, despite the impressive testing programme currently being implemented. For at least many of us, such a suspicion is seriously detrimental to our enjoyment of those events, and of the athletic feats performed there.

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2012/08/doping-at-the-olympics-should-we-ignore-the-party-spoilers/

Offline kennedy81

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #224 on: August 11, 2012, 02:30:34 am »
another good piece here from SI:

Quote
A doping free Olympics? Not in London -- and maybe never

LONDON -- The voice of doubt walked into Olympic Stadium on Thursday night. Dick Pound was there to award the medals for the women's long jump at Olympic Stadium, so he did his job as a representative of the International Olympic Committee: Hung the ribbons around the winners' muscular necks, applauded nicely, stood at respectful attention as the national anthem was played. He did the job well, in fact. Few in the place even noted he was there.

One minute after Pound left the field, at 8:47 p.m., the face of greatness sauntered out of a tunnel and into the light. The 80,000-strong crowd began to roar the moment Jamaican sprinter Usain Bolt appeared, his gold cap on backward, his ascension to "legend," as he has so often put it, at hand. And so he rose: Bolt ran the 200 meters in 19.32 seconds to become the first man to ever repeat as Olympic champion in the 100 and 200 -- winning so easily that he could place an admonishing finger to his lips as he crossed the finish line, then drop to the track to fire off a flurry of push-ups.

Indeed, the whole wonderful Bolt show ensued: Bolt slapping hands with fans; Bolt grabbing a photographer's camera to take snaps of silver medalist Yohan Blake; Bolt being his magnetic, cartoonish, track-and-field-rescuing self. He came into these Games the biggest name in international sport, and he will leave as a global icon unless something goes terribly wrong. And it's the voice of doubt's job to worry that the new face of greatness will turn up dirty.

"He makes me skeptical," Pound, the former head of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) said on Thursday afternoon. "It's short of suspicion: I would never go out and say I'm suspicious of his results, but they're so remarkable that even though he is 6-foot-whatever-he-is and runs like a cat rather than a tank in the old steroidal model, the improvement is so far off the curve that you have to wonder if it's entirely natural. I hope it is -- but you wonder. That's the price you pay for allowing this doping to get out of control."

Let's repeat it: As warmed as they are by British wins and hospitality, as popular as they've proven through record TV ratings, these London Games have shown that the Olympics are troubled still. Any radical spike here in time -- think swimmer Ye Shiwen of China in the 400 IM most prominently -- has been cause for speculation about doping. Any dominant performance, except those of Michael Phelps (and why is that, really?), has raised eyebrows if not questions. If it's not John Leonard, the American coach who told The Guardian that Ye's swim was "disturbing" and reminiscent of the legendarily drug-fueled East German swim program, it's Carl Lewis -- the same U.S. track great who questioned Jamaica's drug-testing program after Bolt struck gold in Beijing -- casting yet another gimlet eye on Bolt before these Games.

"It's just ... interesting," Lewis said. "I watch the results like everyone else and wait for time to tell."

And then there are all those sticky associations. After taking the 200 bronze medal on Wednesday night to become the first U.S. woman since, yes, Florence Griffith-Joyner to medal in the both the 100 and 200 (Marion Jones also did it in 2000, but later was stripped of her medals after admitting use of performance-enhancing drugs and lying about it to a grand jury investigating the BALCO scandal), U.S. sprinter Carmelita Jeter addressed her relationship with former agent Mark Block, who is two years into a 10-year suspension for his involvement with doping athletes. "Mark Block is a close friend of mine," Jeter said. "I love him dearly. I love his family."

Block's family includes wife and former Ukrainian sprinter Zhanna Pintusevich-Block, who was connected to BALCO founder Victor Conte and hit with a two-year doping suspension in 2011. Which brings us to Thursday morning, when Conte, a convicted felon, showed up in The Times of London to say he was working with U.S. sprinter Ryan Bailey, who finished fifth in the 100 final here, and bronze-medal-winning U.S. boxer Marlen Esparza; to denigrate the Olympic drug-testing program, which has conducted more than 6,000 tests here; and to estimate that 60 percent of the 10,000 athletes at these Games were using performance-enhancing drugs.

Conte also said that, as a reformed doping connection now devoted to cleaning up sports, he had been working with Pound on "a substance that I found was widely used on the dark side." Asked about that on Thursday, Pound was decidedly less dramatic.

"'Working with us is perhaps not quite right," said Pound, who retired as head of WADA in 2008 but remains on its board as the IOC's representative. "The new chairman and director general still think that Victor's on the dark side. I'm not persuaded that he is. A number of months ago, he found something that was being widely used in Europe and actually was able to get a sample of it for us to analyze. And he sent it to [a scientist at] our best lab, who analyzed it and said, 'I don't see anything in this particular sample that's performance-enhancing or on the [banned] list.' Which is not to say that it isn't being used as part of a cocktail somewhere else that has the effect.


"[Conte] has been part of that scene, so I always thought he would be a very good source. I haven't been able to persuade the current WADA management that they should take advantage of this; the guy was part of BALCO, so he's tainted forever. I find him knowledgeable and helpful. I would have no compunction of taking advantage of what he hears from the inside about what's going on now."

What's going on now -- blood-doping, steroids, EPO and human-growth hormone use -- and with whom is anyone's guess, which brought us to Thursday's historic one-two-three finish by Jamaica in the 200. Bolt's runner-up, Yohan Blake at 19.44, was banned for three months in 2009 by Jamaica's anti-doping agency for testing positive for a stimulant, and bronze medalist Warren Weir, 22, in running 19.84 in the final, has now sliced nearly six-tenths of a second off his personal best in the last year.

With all that -- and Lewis and Conte -- in the air, it's no wonder that a reporter stumbled during the post-race press conference, asking Bolt, "Can you assure us that you and the Jamaican drug team --excuse me, track team -- sprinters are drug-free?" Cue widened eyes from Bolt and Co., and guffaws across the packed room, but it was no joke: This was Jamaican sprinting's moment of triumph, yet the atmosphere is still so smoky that the question had to be asked.

"Without a doubt," said Bolt, who then gave a measured account of the team's work ethic before adding, "People doubt us really hard, but we are trying our best to show the world that we are running clean."

Earlier, though, when asked in the media mixed zone about Lewis and Conte, Bolt had said, "It's really annoying when people on the sideline talk stupid stuff. If you want attention, go do something. Because a lot of these guys who sit and talk, especially Lewis, nobody really remembers who he is so he's just looking for attention: That's my opinion. It's really annoying to know that people are trying to taint the sport after the sport has been going forward. For the athletes, it's hard. Because we work hard. We push ourselves to limits. I shouldn't have even responded to that."

Perhaps. But until now, Bolt's uniqueness has actually done much to dampen the usual speculation about a top sprinter and doping. Because to see him at his best is to witness a bio-mechanical miracle: No man this big (6-foot-5, 210 pounds) has ever run this fast, this easily, and we can accept -- we want to accept -- his record-breaking slash of the 100 world record in 2009 (from his own previous 9.69 to 9.58, the highest margin since the start of fully automatic time measurements), because he seems looser, more open, freer in attitude and gait than any cheat could be.

It helps, of course, that Bolt has never tested positive for banned substances, but any way you slice it, he was almost impossible to imagine before he came along. He's an off-the-charts outlier, a physical freak. When you saw him win the 100 in Beijing with a then-world record time of 9.69, it literally made no sense: Bolt did so despite slowing down to celebrate in the last 10 meters and oh, yes, one shoe was untied. What drug had ever been designed to do that?

But the skeptical voices of those like Pound and Conte underscore the reality that enough progress hasn't been made. Even with improvements in testing regimens and awareness, where we were with Ben Johnson in 1988, Marion Jones in 2000 and Kostas Kenteris in 2004 may be where we are still. Out of all those thousands of drug tests in London, only six athletes have been kicked out of these Games for a doping violation.

Pound said that Conte's estimate of 60 percent dirty is probably high, though, "frankly, as somebody on the inside he's probably more likely to know than we are." His guess? "It's north of 10 and short of 90 [percent]," Pound says, "but it's more than people expect.

"Yet we consistently are finding only between one and two percent of all the tests we do as positive. So something is wrong here: Either we're not testing the right people or there's stuff out there we don't know about or we can't get at the right people at the right time. That's discouraging."

No more so than being an Olympics devotee these days. What was F. Scott Fitzgerald's dictum? A first-rate mind is one that can hold two opposing ideas yet still function? But how about a first-rate sporting event? Yes, we can suspend disbelief for 20 seconds at a time, be transported by the greatness at hand, but sooner or later that voice kicks in and Pound is right: You have to wonder. So how does such a construct continue to function? The Olympic Games can't go on forever like this. Can they?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/olympics/2012/writers/sl_price/08/10/2012-olympics-doping/index.html?PID=4166869&utm_source=buffer&buffer_share=c26fa

I think Dick Pound hits the nail on the head with the part I've bolded.
If people decide to take part in sports where doping is prevelant, and perform great feats in that sport, then it's perfectly reasonable to suspect the possibility of foul play.
Unfortunately, that is where years of neglect and turning a blind eye, by the governing bodies has got us.
The genie is out of the bottle and I don't know how they will ever get it back in.

Yes, it's unfair on the clean athletes to be under suspicion and yes, it taints their great achievements, but that's where we're at unfortunately.
Like Pound, I really hope people like Bolt, Phelps etc. aren't doping during training (competing clean is one thing - training clean months before an event is another), but it seems the situation is so bad now, that it would be naive not to at least entertain the possibilty.
The clean athletes are owed at least that much.
And if they are clean, they will just have to live with that suspicion and put up with it, or find another career.
Like someone said earlier, this isn't a court of law. 'Innocent until proven guilty' does not apply here.
We reserve the right to suspend belief.
If someone joins the Mafia, is it unfair to suspect them of possibly being involved in crimes? No, it's not.
If athletes want to compete in sports which are under constant suspicion, then they will just have to accept that their own achievements... even if done fair and square... will always be under question.
And they can blame the people who run those sports for that, not us cynics. We just want to enjoy these events and these great athletes without having to entertain questions of doping at all.

It seems there is a massive propaganda campaign at work to have people believe that these games are clean and we can all enjoy them without worrying about doping, but that's the wrong way to go about it IMHO, and it's a disservice to those athletes who compete clean.
The head-in-the-sand policy is all well and good for the sponsors and TV companies, and for those who just want to enjoy these games without the spectre of doping (which is most of us probably, me included), but it's fantasy.
I think they should have been handing out life bans 20, 30 years ago. Zero tolerance. I don't know why they weren't (money and/or politics is my guess, or maybe just a lack of foresight) but they let it get out of control, and we are where we are because of it.
It's too late now.

If people are using substances which can't be detected, or are using them during training and are not being tested in their own countries, then I don't know what the answer is.
I heard they keep samples for up to 8 years after the events and are supposed to test them with new tests every 2 years, but apparently this post-testing isn't being done as often and as comprehensively as it should be, for fear of what they might find.
After all, with every stripped gold medal, the credibilty (and financial potential) of the games is reduced.

Simply saying, "let's just say nothing and enjoy the spectacle, until when and if they are found guilty" just doesn't cut it any more.
I've enjoyed these games, but I would have enjoyed them a whole lot more if that doubt wasn't constantly nagging away at the back of my mind.

Offline kennedy81

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #225 on: August 11, 2012, 01:43:41 pm »
from The Guardian - 31st July 2012

Quote
Doping at the Olympics: are we winning the war on drugs?

Scientists are expected to conduct 6,250 drug tests during the London Olympics – but is it still possible to beat the system?

-------------------------------------------

How long have serious doping controls been in place?

Aware that the doping scandals of the 1990s that followed the era-defining disgrace of Ben Johnson in Seoul and the realisation that much of East Germany's earlier dominance was based on institutional doping, the World Anti-Doping Agency was set up in 1999 as a joint venture between the International Olympic Committee and governments around the world to provide a co-ordinated global response. It drew up a universal list of banned substances, sought to harmonise the rules across countries and sports and resolved to drive up testing standards across the world.

What testing regime is in place at London 2012?

Earlier this year, London 2012 organisers proudly showed off their glistening new £20m state-of-the-art testing facility in Harlow. There, scientists will conduct a record 6,250 tests for 240 banned substances on athletes' blood and urine. They have carried out more than 1,700 already, including 368 blood tests.

Around half of all athletes are expected to be tested, including every single medallist. This has led organisers and politicians to claim that anyone cheating at these Games will be caught. "The regime is incredibly thorough and incredibly strict. So if there are people who are doing what they shouldn't, we can be as confident as we'll ever be that they will be found out," said the culture secretary, Jeremy C*nt, yesterday.

Is it that simple?

Far from it. In a much-quoted speech, the Wada director general, David Howman, drew a distinction between "dopey dopers" who still have traces of banned substances in their system during major competition, and sophisticated cheats who are able to beat the system outside competition.

While strides have been made in the out-of-competition testing regime, including the introduction of the controversial "whereabouts" policy that requires elite athletes in every sport to make themselves available for spot testing at any time, there are huge concerns about whether they are doing enough to keep up.

While sophisticated new methods are being developed to test for EPO and Human Growth Hormone, they are expensive and require refrigerated blood samples to be carried for sometimes thousands of miles to the labs capable of carrying out the tests. Wada is concerned the cost is preventing many countries carrying out as many tests for blood doping as they should be.

It is feared that of the 258,000 tests conducted annually, as few as 2% include the blood tests that can detect the use of Human Growth Hormone. In 2010 there were just 36 positives – a total Wada regarded as "disappointing". Across sport, there are fears that one in 10 athletes is attempting to cheat but of those only one in five is being caught.

"We think the annual statistics show that maybe between 1% and 2% of athletes who are tested are cheating. By conducting these research projects, the results of which will be made known later this year, we think those numbers are more into double digits," said Howman earlier this year. "That's a concern. If more than 10% of the athletes in the world are being tempted to take a shortcut via taking prohibited substances then we've got an issue that is not being confronted as well as it should be."

Arne Ljungqvist, chairman of the International Olympic Committee's medical commission and also a Wada vice president, admitted this week that the out-of-competition testing regime was still far from ideal.

"My personal view is that an out of competition testing programme should be very extensive, of course the more extensive the better, and not that many nations do have that in place, I have to admit that," he said. "I would argue that very few would lead up to my ideal in that sense but at least we have reached a stage where all are conducting out of competition testing in some way or another, and that is being monitored by Wada."

Can Wada keep up?

All of those at the anti-doping frontline acknowledge they are in an "arms race" with those willing to cheat. Shortly before the Games, for example, a new test for Human Growth Hormone – previously very difficult to detect as it is naturally occurring – expanded the window for a positive test from a few days to a few weeks. Wada is working with pharmaceutical giants such as GSK to develop tests for new substances that have genuine medical uses but could also enhance performances.

Wada is also calling for more help from governments around the world, not only to maintain their funding but to criminalise the supply of performance-enhancing drugs.

According to those on the frontline, the focus is becoming as much on education of young athletes – trying to convince them that the risks vastly outweigh the rewards – and on intelligence-led initiatives. Working with Interpol and local law enforcement agencies, Wada hopes to target the networks behind the supply of illicit substances and the pyramid of influences behind the athletes in the hope of cutting the supply and reducing their power.

Do they have the money?

It's a good question. Wada's £17.8m budget was frozen this year, with national governments (who fund it 50-50 with the IOC) unwilling to increase their contributions in a time of austerity. There are fears that the new threat of match-fixing and corrupt gambling will further divert resources.

Should we trust anything we see?

Ljungqvist was circumspect yesterday when asked whether an extraordinary performance like that of the Chinese swimmer Ye Shiwen in the 400m individual medley should automatically attract suspicion and trigger targeted testing. He said it would be "tragic" for sport if that was the case. Yet years of weary experience have taught some coaches to believe that if a performance appears too good to be true then it may turn out to be so. John Leonard's contention that Ye's performance was "unbelievable" is based on his analysis of her split timings and her performance curve. He was keen to absolve other Chinese athletes from suspicion and said other athletes who had delivered what appeared to be extraordinary performances – such as Michael Phelps and China's Sun Yang (or even Usain Bolt) – were able to demonstrate improved performances over an extended period. But others have pointed out that Leonard does not have a shred of evidence.

Does everyone think Wada's approach is the right one?

Most in the anti-doping world believe that it is on the right lines but needs more resources. But there are those who believe that it has become too bureaucratic and too timid in its approach. In a coruscating attack the British Olympic Association chairman Lord Moynihan, then embroiled in a failed battle to retain its bylaw banning drug cheats from the Games for life, said earlier this year that there was a need for a wholesale rethink. He said today it was a "mistake" for anyone to cast aspersions on an athlete who had not failed a test, but repeated his call for "fundamental reform" at Wada.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/31/doping-london-2012-olympics-drugs

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #226 on: September 2, 2012, 10:46:42 pm »
Do they test for PED's in tennis?

Just watching the US Open and wondered, not sure why .......
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Offline elpistolero7

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #227 on: September 6, 2012, 05:49:36 pm »
I don't really have a great deal to add, but was browsing another forum and saw this, and thought some of you might enjoy it.



Barring Football, Cycling was my second favorite sport to follow by some distance. I loved the grand tours, the mountain stages made for some excellent entertainment. The attacks on the mountians,  the time trials was all great stuff. First the Pantani doping, the Ullrich kind of left me a little sour, but there was always the "squeaky clean" Armstrong. The Vinokourov did it, the one of my all time favorite climbers (Michael Rasmusen) was pulled from the middle of a tour a few years back for doping. I had just about given up on a clean sport of cycling. Then the most recent problems with Contador were almost the last straw. I truly believe Armstrong's acheivements, with doping or not were heroic, and he's been a great role model. He was a doper, but heck, the image here shows basically the entire peloton used to be doped up. But this not fighting stance by one of the greatest fighters in sport history leaves me confused with the sport of cycling. I no longer have the will to watch any of the grand tours, let alone the Tour de France.  :-\
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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #228 on: September 6, 2012, 06:46:27 pm »
Barring Football, Cycling was my second favorite sport to follow by some distance. I loved the grand tours, the mountain stages made for some excellent entertainment. The attacks on the mountians,  the time trials was all great stuff. First the Pantani doping, the Ullrich kind of left me a little sour, but there was always the "squeaky clean" Armstrong. The Vinokourov did it, the one of my all time favorite climbers (Michael Rasmusen) was pulled from the middle of a tour a few years back for doping. I had just about given up on a clean sport of cycling. Then the most recent problems with Contador were almost the last straw. I truly believe Armstrong's acheivements, with doping or not were heroic, and he's been a great role model. He was a doper, but heck, the image here shows basically the entire peloton used to be doped up. But this not fighting stance by one of the greatest fighters in sport history leaves me confused with the sport of cycling. I no longer have the will to watch any of the grand tours, let alone the Tour de France.  :-\
Have you had a look at the "heroic  role model" thread?

It's quite an eye opener.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=296833.0
Exercise is to the body what reading is to the mind.

"If I hadn't doped, I would never have won". "Doping improves your performance between 5 and 7 per cent, and maybe 10 to 12 per cent when you are in a peak shape.

"Doping isn't addictive but it's an instrument of power: whoever wins attracts the money; for themselves, the team and the sponsors"

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #229 on: September 6, 2012, 10:18:01 pm »
Have you had a look at the "heroic  role model" thread?

It's quite an eye opener.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=296833.0

And what about the hero-worship of a convicted doper in the pro cycling thread? Shocking.
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Offline dave 5516

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #230 on: September 6, 2012, 10:47:11 pm »
And what about the hero-worship of a convicted doper in the pro cycling thread? Shocking.
  :D  You mean this? That's a race report.

What an epic ride by the best rider in the peloton since Hinault.

With help from Tiralongo who dragged his friend away from the  breakaway group.

That was how a true champion wins a race,attack after attack,and as much as I feel for Purito Contador has done just that and finally broke him.

Racing with his brain as well as his legs  Contador knowing he can't break Purito on the climbs has attacked his weakness and time trialled to the stage and red jersey.

A ride in the style of Merckx and Hinault,only one rider rides like this.Chapeau Alberto Contador.

That's what a real bike race looks like.



Exercise is to the body what reading is to the mind.

"If I hadn't doped, I would never have won". "Doping improves your performance between 5 and 7 per cent, and maybe 10 to 12 per cent when you are in a peak shape.

"Doping isn't addictive but it's an instrument of power: whoever wins attracts the money; for themselves, the team and the sponsors"

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #231 on: September 6, 2012, 10:57:19 pm »
  :D  You mean this? That's a race report.

What an epic ride by the best rider in the peloton since Hinault.

With help from Tiralongo who dragged his friend away from the  breakaway group.

That was how a true champion wins a race,attack after attack,and as much as I feel for Purito Contador has done just that and finally broke him.

Racing with his brain as well as his legs  Contador knowing he can't break Purito on the climbs has attacked his weakness and time trialled to the stage and red jersey.

A ride in the style of Merckx and Hinault,only one rider rides like this.Chapeau Alberto Contador.

That's what a real bike race looks like.

I bet you thought Vinokourov winning Olympic gold was great as well.
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Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #232 on: October 22, 2012, 06:19:08 pm »
Is there any Tour de France winner that won it without doping?

I feel that Armstong is now becoming the scapegoat. Not that I profess a lot of sympathy for the man, but he is not the only evil in the sport by any means.

By the way, one of Armstrong doctors was linked to FC Barcelona.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/barcelona/9597078/Barcelona-deny-link-to-banned-doctor-Luis-Garcia-del-Moral-who-worked-with-Lance-Armstrong-and-US-Postal.html

Will they have the balls to go after football too?
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Offline INABITSKI

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #233 on: October 22, 2012, 06:23:17 pm »
Is there any Tour de France winner that won it without doping?

I feel that Armstong is now becoming the scapegoat. Not that I profess a lot of sympathy for the man, but he is not the only evil in the sport by any means.


TdF is almost 100 years old, not 10. Unfair comment on all those that have gone before and after him.

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #234 on: October 22, 2012, 06:28:35 pm »
TdF is almost 100 years old, not 10. Unfair comment on all those that have gone before and after him.

I know, and in 65 of them or so it was legal to dope. So we only need to test for 55 and in most cases the cyclists got caught in other races and or were linked to doping doctors.

So the chances that a Tour de France winner won it clean are next to nil. I don't believe in superhumans.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 06:30:09 pm by Spanish Fan »
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Offline snoop123

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #235 on: October 22, 2012, 07:09:08 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France

Its always been in the tour in one form or another if this article is accurate. Although i doubt cycling is any different from any other major sport in this respect.

People will always break or bend the rules to win.
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Offline AggerCarra

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #236 on: October 22, 2012, 07:46:05 pm »
Genius this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19152611

Judoka Nicholas Delpopolo has been expelled from London 2012 after he failed a drugs test and admitted he had unwittingly eaten marijuana-laced food.

The 23-year-old American had finished seventh in the men's -73kg competition.
Delpopolo was disqualified by the International Olympic Committee  after they discovered metabolites of cannabis in a urine sample taken on 30 July.
He insisted he had not known the food contained the banned substance but that was not deemed a sufficient defence.
Delpopolo was tested after he lost to Mongolian Nyam-Ochir Sainjargal in the repechage stage at the ExCel Arena.
The IOC's ruling dictated that his name should be struck from the judo records in London and the International Judo Federation  should consider issuing any further punishments available in their rulebook.
Delpopolo had waived his right to a hearing in the case and is due to return home to the United States on 7 August.
According to the IOC, the Serbian-born judoka "indicated that he was embarrassed by this mistake".
He has apologised to the United States Olympic Committee and his team-mates.
More than 1,000 blood and urine tests have been carried out at the state-of-the-art testing facility built especially for the Games in Essex.
The IOC confirmed that four other athletes had returned positive samples so far during the current Olympics.

Stupid how does being high on weed help you in a fight. Diferent if cocaina hahaha great for fight!!! but weed no way only sleep better high but if not mdma speed or cocaina not good for fighting.

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #237 on: October 22, 2012, 08:16:19 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France

Its always been in the tour in one form or another if this article is accurate. Although i doubt cycling is any different from any other major sport in this respect.

People will always break or bend the rules to win.


Of course. I believe in humanity and their weaknesses. :D
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Offline Swright90

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #238 on: October 23, 2012, 11:03:25 am »
I haven't contributed at all to the discussion, but do you think if athletes are busted once that it should be a lifetime ban? Would certainly make the ones considering taking the risk, think twice.

I remember writing a paper when I was at University that looked into drug taking at the Olympics. One of the studies I read about looked into how far athletes would go if it meant being successful..

I can't remember the exact question or the exact figures, or even who was asked, but it was something like "if you had the chance to win an Olympic gold medal, but it meant dying within 5 years of doing so, would you do it?"

Around 80% answered yes. Now obviously answering a question and actually acting on it are two completely different things, but for a lot of professional athletes winning in their sport means the world, and they will be willing to do absolutely anything to make it happen.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 11:07:50 am by Swright90 »

Offline pewithree3

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Re: Doping In Sport..
« Reply #239 on: January 22, 2013, 12:37:06 pm »
My son plays rugby, a few years ago the English rugby union sent out a
memo that showed 5 groups of substances that if taken could get a
player banned.
When I was involved with serious bike racing there were over 400
substances and groups of substances that if taken would enforce a ban.

Lots of footballers start with some sort of "grease" on the front top of their
shirts, I think this could be a "Vick" type of decongestant which could cause
a ban in some sports.

Footballers talk about having their urine tested, what level of testing is done?

I do not think there is a general high level of testing in all sports.