Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!

[Schmidt]

This is the only information I could find on effectiveness.

"Let's say that it didn't have to be 100% perfect in order for Ukrainians perhaps to get their hands on it," he said.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) says the faster timetable comes in response to the "rapidly changing threat environment" faced by the UK.

"It's designed to not wait until we have this at 99.9% perfection before it goes into the field, but get it to sort of 70% and then get it out there and then develop it from there," Mr Shapps said.

[PaulF]

Yeah, the lasers need a clear line of site as light doesn’t obviously bend, so things like rain and clouds can get in the way and reduce the power of the laser when it hits the target, at what level it becomes useless I’m not sure, it might be a case that if conditions aren’t optimal the laser just takes longer to burn through but it does still work. I wonder what happens if the missile or drone is covered in a reflective material, will the laser just bounce off?

Manchester is fucked. Ah well.

[Schmidt]

Probably also worth mentioning that drone warfare tends to slow down during bad weather too, particularly rain, so a laser defence being less functional during bad weather isn't as big of an issue as you might think.

[Draex]

Yeah, the lasers need a clear line of site as light doesn’t obviously bend, so things like rain and clouds can get in the way and reduce the power of the laser when it hits the target, at what level it becomes useless I’m not sure, it might be a case that if conditions aren’t optimal the laser just takes longer to burn through but it does still work. I wonder what happens if the missile or drone is covered in a reflective material, will the laser just bounce off?

Weird it's on ships, isn't it like really wet in the ocean?

[RJH]

Weird it's on ships, isn't it like really wet in the ocean?

That's normally underneath the ships though.

The ocean being above the ship is a Russian Navy issue.

[west_london_red]

That's normally underneath the ships though.

The ocean being above the ship is a Russian Navy issue.

[west_london_red]

Don’t forget as well, that in an ideal situation SAM systems are usually layered with a mixture of long and short range systems, I don’t think the technology is in a place where lasers would be used in isolation, it would be a mixture of traditional SAMs and lasers for various scenarios where lasers wouldn’t work, but the benefits are clear if you have a system with essentially unlimited ammunition which leaves traditional missiles for the harder to hit targets.

[Draex]

That's normally underneath the ships though.

The ocean being above the ship is a Russian Navy issue.

Fucking Brexit, why can't we take back control of our skies.

[[new username under construction]]

Fingers crossed it works well

Imagine being the guy who has to tell Putin that his 10,000 drone attack was picked off in a few seconds by a laser

[Draex]

Fingers crossed it works well

Imagine being the guy who has to tell Putin that his 10,000 drone attack was picked off in a few seconds by a laser

Or the guy who forgets to charge it overnight..

[[new username under construction]]

Or the guy who forgets to charge it overnight..

I paid £45 Million for this and I can't change the battery?

furiously reads Apple product info

[west_london_red]

To be honest there are similar systems called Phalanx that already exist but instead of using lasers it users a 6 barrel gattling gun (similar to the one on the A10 warthog) that could do a similar job in many respects of destroying drones without using million dollar missiles, they come as pretty much stand alone integrated units of the radar and gun that they usually bolt on to ships to take out sea skimming missiles.

[Schmidt]

To be honest there are similar systems called Phalanx that already exist but instead of using lasers it users a 6 barrel gattling gun (similar to the one on the A10 warthog) that could do a similar job in many respects of destroying drones without using million dollar missiles, they come as pretty much stand alone integrated units of the radar and gun that they usually bolt on to ships to take out sea skimming missiles.

Ukraine are already using the Gepard for this too, it's a German AA gun that I believe was previously looking like it was going out of service completely soon, but with drone warfare it has had a bit of a comeback. It's quite efficient, with a short burst of a few rounds (cost of a few hundred Euro's) being enough to drop a drone. Germany have opened a new factory to produce the ammo as production was previously pretty low.

The laser system was more of an interesting possibility rather than some new game-changing addition, if it does make it to Ukraine any time soon it could literally just be a single unit mounted on a lightly armoured vehicle.

[Draex]

[farawayred]

Yeah, the lasers need a clear line of site as light doesn’t obviously bend, so things like rain and clouds can get in the way and reduce the power of the laser when it hits the target, at what level it becomes useless I’m not sure, it might be a case that if conditions aren’t optimal the laser just takes longer to burn through but it does still work. I wonder what happens if the missile or drone is covered in a reflective material, will the laser just bounce off?

The laser uses infrared light, which interacts with materials quite differently. Like every laser, it will refract depending on atmospheric conditions, some components in the air will absorb a fraction, etc., but the object it hits will heat up. Heating is a function of the ratio of surface absorptivity and emissivity (alpha/epsilon). For IR light, finding materials that have low alpha/epsilon are few and far between; these are usually (classified) white paints, which are not mechanically stable. If you shoot a rocket with such paint, it will likely have the paint stripped in the first few meters at high speed. There is not much protection from an IR laser.

[rhysd]

The UK laser Air defence system is called Dragonfire.

But not going to be available till 2027 unfortunately.

It was 2032 but they think they can bring it forward 5 years.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/british-military-laser-could-be-used-to-target-russian-drones-in-ukraine-13113231

[rhysd]

Israel has a similar laser system called Iron Beam.

They predict it will be operational by the end 2025.

[Schmidt]

The UK laser Air defence system is called Dragonfire.

But not going to be available till 2027 unfortunately.

It was 2032 but they think they can bring it forward 5 years.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/british-military-laser-could-be-used-to-target-russian-drones-in-ukraine-13113231

It was already brought forward to 2027, the quotes about getting it to 70% or so effectiveness are referring to getting it into Ukraine sooner than 2027.

[killer-heels]

Israel has a similar laser system called Iron Beam.

They predict it will be operational by the end 2025.

Feels like we should have a petition regarding what we call ours.

[PaulF]

Laser mc laser face?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Israel has a similar laser system called Iron Beam.

They predict it will be operational by the end 2025.

Feels like we should have a petition regarding what we call ours.

'Laser Beam'?

[Draex]

'Laser Beam'?

"FairSkiesLaserBeamPewPew"

[west_london_red]

Lazar Marković

[Boston always unofficial]

Feels like we should have a petition regarding what we call ours.

 

Mr.Beam.

[Mumm-Ra]

Got me listening to this now (great tune btw)

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/Pcz6w_b5A58" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/Pcz6w_b5A58</a>

[Schmidt]

A second vote took place on the Ukraine aid bill and that has passed with an overwhelming majority now too. It was the final vote, Biden just needs to sign the bill now (he's already said he'll do it immediately) and aid can start rolling in.

There's been anecdotal talk of movement of equipment both in the US and near the Ukrainian border over the last couple of weeks, so I'd guess a lot of it will arrive in Ukraine very quickly. Ukraine can also probably stop rationing the ammo they already have, knowing that more is coming, so hopefully the bill has already started to have an impact.

[Red Beret]

The cynic in me thinks Johnson and other Republicans have stalled this deal until Ukraine is on the verge of military collapse, so they can pass it when it's too late to make a difference. Then they can wring their hands and say, "well, at least we tried."

I really really hope that Biden has been moving assets into position ahead of time, in anticipation of a deal being struck. I've seen reports that the front lines have broken and Russia is pouring through. I don't see how the equipment can possibly reach the front lines in time. Ukraine needed this stuff at least a month ago.

[Draex]

The cynic in me thinks Johnson and other Republicans have stalled this deal until Ukraine is on the verge of military collapse, so they can pass it when it's too late to make a difference. Then they can wring their hands and say, "well, at least we tried."

I really really hope that Biden has been moving assets into position ahead of time, in anticipation of a deal being struck. I've seen reports that the front lines have broken and Russia is pouring through. I don't see how the equipment can possibly reach the front lines in time. Ukraine needed this stuff at least a month ago.

I don't think so, Ukraine have heavily started using their reserves so their activity is now increasing and the US had already moved a lot of the urgent items to Poland/Germany so they will get there straight away.

Germany, UK and other countries are also massively increasing their support.

[Libertine]

The cynic in me thinks Johnson and other Republicans have stalled this deal until Ukraine is on the verge of military collapse, so they can pass it when it's too late to make a difference. Then they can wring their hands and say, "well, at least we tried."

More likely that Trump came to the realisation that there are not enough votes for his pro-Moscow position to carry the election.

[Libertine]

2 Democrats and Sanders voted against, along with 15 Republicans (usual suspects from god awful places like Florida).

[Schmidt]

The cynic in me thinks Johnson and other Republicans have stalled this deal until Ukraine is on the verge of military collapse, so they can pass it when it's too late to make a difference. Then they can wring their hands and say, "well, at least we tried."

I really really hope that Biden has been moving assets into position ahead of time, in anticipation of a deal being struck. I've seen reports that the front lines have broken and Russia is pouring through. I don't see how the equipment can possibly reach the front lines in time. Ukraine needed this stuff at least a month ago.

Johnson is getting a lot of hate from the MAGA loons so not likely. If you're referring to the latest RfU video with the front lines breaking, he tends to report on a lot of small scale stuff, and often these breakthroughs are dealt with very quickly.

[Red Beret]

Johnson is getting a lot of hate from the MAGA loons so not likely. If you're referring to the latest RfU video with the front lines breaking, he tends to report on a lot of small scale stuff, and often these breakthroughs are dealt with very quickly.

Actually, it was a headline I saw in the Guardian. RfU seemed to suggest a confirmation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/apr/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-us-biden-senate-zelenskiy-aid?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-6628e4778f0839cf006b19cb#block-6628e4778f0839cf006b19cb

Obviously we have to be mindful of misinformation; but at the same time, this legislation has been stalled for four to six months before Johnson finally decided to put his job on the line to get it through. I'm hoping he was given some kind of briefing of classified intel that drove home the consequences of him playing politics with this issue to pacify his crazies; or that they had some damning piece of Russia-related information that they threatened to hold over him unless he made this a priority.

And of course, Trump got the initial bill killed because it got tied to border security and he didn't want to give Biden a win. This is why bi-partisan legislation has died. Republicans have become so narrow minded they can't see the benefit to themselves of such legislation if they Democrats also benefit from it.

Let's hope Russia is ill equipped to exploit their successes and that Ukraine can counter attack hard. If the situation deteriorates much more, only direct intervention will save Ukraine. And NATO won't take that step.

[RJH]

Actually, it was a headline I saw in the Guardian. RfU seemed to suggest a confirmation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/apr/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-us-biden-senate-zelenskiy-aid?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-6628e4778f0839cf006b19cb#block-6628e4778f0839cf006b19cb

Obviously we have to be mindful of misinformation; but at the same time, this legislation has been stalled for four to six months before Johnson finally decided to put his job on the line to get it through. I'm hoping he was given some kind of briefing of classified intel that drove home the consequences of him playing politics with this issue to pacify his crazies; or that they had some damning piece of Russia-related information that they threatened to hold over him unless he made this a priority.

And of course, Trump got the initial bill killed because it got tied to border security and he didn't want to give Biden a win. This is why bi-partisan legislation has died. Republicans have become so narrow minded they can't see the benefit to themselves of such legislation if they Democrats also benefit from it.

Let's hope Russia is ill equipped to exploit their successes and that Ukraine can counter attack hard. If the situation deteriorates much more, only direct intervention will save Ukraine. And NATO won't take that step.

Apparently Johnson's u-turn came shortly after a CIA intelligence briefing.

...more recently, Johnson received a key intelligence briefing from CIA Director Bill Burns, who painted a picture of the dire situation on the battlefield in Ukraine and the global consequences of inaction, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the situation

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/21/politics/ukraine-aid-mike-johnson-house-speaker-israel-taiwan/index.html

[rhysd]

There has been a break in the line at Ocheretyne. Just north west of Avdiivka. 

Reports that units of the 115th mechanized brigade, who were relieving the over worked 47th brigade, left positions without permission and the Russians made a breakthrough.
It was only stopped from becoming a disaster when the 47th went back and stopped the advance.

Now a 6km bulge from the main line. With Russia pushing hard North and South to expand it. It's a dangerous situation.

Hopefully the bulge can be knocked back pretty quickly, before Russia can take serious advantage.

Reports saying it's very difficult at Chasiv Yar too, just west of Bakhmut.
Russian glide bombs causing mayhem. But the town is elevated and reports saying it would take a lot of casualties for Russia to be able to take the whole town,

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Apparently Johnson's u-turn came shortly after a CIA intelligence briefing.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/21/politics/ukraine-aid-mike-johnson-house-speaker-israel-taiwan/index.html

One of the nuts wants rid of him, his reason being that Mike brainwashed him with intelligence 

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Ukranians getting more strategic weapons, like a load of ATACMS, rather than defensive ones and told there are no conditions to their use would be welcome.

[Red Beret]

Ukranians getting more strategic weapons, like a load of ATACMS, rather than defensive ones and told there are no conditions to their use would be welcome.

Mitch McConnell has said he hopes there are no conditions on their use. Let's hope Biden takes up that offer.

I would really like to know the reasoning behind Germany's continued intransigence on providing Taurus missiles though.

[rhysd]

Mitch McConnell has said he hopes there are no conditions on their use. Let's hope Biden takes up that offer.

I would really like to know the reasoning behind Germany's continued intransigence on providing Taurus missiles though.

There's a theory that they don't want to be the ones to supply the weapon that takes the bridge down, as that will really set Putin off. Too political.

Hoping they can speed up the development of Hrim-2 and increasing the range of the Neptune. then it can be homemade Ukrainian weapons that take it down properly.

[farawayred]

Might that have something to do with Germany's dependence on Russian gas?

They have to pull the finger out of their ass.

[west_london_red]

I also wouldn’t underestimate the difficulty involved in taking the bridge down, the Russians arnt that stupid and will have it absolutely defended from sea and missile attacks, having weapons with the range to reach the bridge is just half the problem.