Topic: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?

[Son of Spion]

Fans of the supposed smaller clubs having little sympathy with the complaints of the top clubs on this is extremely shortsighted and self-defeating in the long run. If fans of those clubs want a level playing field, then they really need to back up those up on the stage when they are complaining about the incredibly poor standard of officiating in the League we all play in.

If standards are raised, as they certainly should be, then this benefits ALL clubs in the League, not just the top four or five. Rightly or wrongly, it's the glamour clubs that grab the headlines and column inches, so when they highlight something that blights the game and the League itself, they should be backed rather than greeted with derision. Only when we stand together will things change for the better.

[Son of Spion]

Good post mate. Just snipped this bit as I agree, this season has been awful in terms of the decision we've had and there probably is bias there but the title suggests to me a cabal of referees having clandestine meetings about how to screw us over each game. Which I'm about 95% sure doesn't happen.

With no offence towards the thread starter meant at all, I do agree over the title.

The topic is a genuinely important one which needs to be aired openly, but the title does detract from it and offer ammunition to gutter-dwellers who trawl the forum in order to repost elsewhere giving everything a negative slant.

[Hazell]

With no offence towards the thread starter meant at all, I do agree over the title.

The topic is a genuinely important one which needs to be aired openly, but the title does detract from it and offer ammunition to gutter-dwellers who trawl the forum in order to repost elsewhere giving everything a negative slant.

Yeah, regardless of how we've been affected, whilst we would have been better off points wise, we probably wouldn't have won the league anyway so it's not that. I think fans of other clubs will agree that standards in general have been particularly poor for a while, maybe VAR has just highlighted that.

[Jookie]

Can’t stand the title of this thread, it’s so ripe for the usual LFC bashing.

But whatever.

The biggest problem is the old boys club nature of reffing in England, and until that changes, then it’ll carry on being absolutely shit.

Of course as a fan base we think it’s worse for us, and yes, this season no doubt, there have been a whole host of decisions made that where simply incorrect.  Last season it was more ’normal’, in the sense that we still got far too many bad decisions, but it wasn’t as lopsided in it’s number for us - a bit more even with some other teams.

Some other teams have had a shit run too, Southampton I am pretty sure recently had a few bad decisions go agains them, Villa too - but they have a ridiculous amount of credit to burn through being as they are only in the league due to a massive helping hand, so who cares!  And that one the other day when Maguire got away with an elbow in the box (no idea what team was on the receiving end of that). And that other one when the goalie gave away a clear peno that wasn’t given.

So yeah, shit decisions all round, amplified for us, cos of the sheer numbers, and amplified further cos the other of the only 2 ‘giant European teams’ in this league - Man Utd, who happen to be a major rival, are the polar opposite - getting every decision go for them.

So no, sorry I don't buy the conspiracy stuff - I don’t believe there is actually meetings going on here to make sure refs fuck Liverpool FC over - cos that seems to be what people are suggestion.

But I do buy the fact that a lot of referees just don’t like Liverpool -the city and it’s people are disliked and disparaged by many in England, and that is disgusting, but it’s sadly true. As was mentioned in another thread, Liverpool marches to the beat of it’s own drum. People don’t like it.

So yeah, there is probably something in that side of it.  But mostly it’s just cos the refs in this country are genuinley awful, and are such a clique that nothing can be done about it.  Too many are unfiit as well - which shows that there is little interest in making sure they are up to scratch.

So untill the refereeing mafia is taken out, and a new group is set up from scratch, it’ll continue to be a farce.

This pretty much nails it.

The refs as a group being poor at their job is the main reason. The application of VAR, which in essence gives poor referees more rope to hang themselves with, has amplified this. On occasions we've also been on the wrong side of the changing interpretation of rules during the season. What was deemed handball for a few weeks wasn't a few weeks later. The interpretation of a clear and obvious error has changed dramatically during the season. Other team have fallen foul or benefited from this too.

There are definitely some referees with internal bias against us. Or at least that's how it feels. But ask any group of supporters and they'll name a handful of referees they feel similar about. It's exactly the same when people talk about media bias. Every set of fans thinks the media and individuals in the media are biased against them. I don't like to reference Twitter but I saw a question posed about who the darlings of the British media where. The most prevalent answers from supporters of loads of teams were Liverpool and Leeds. So whilst we think the media is against us. Lots of other fans think the opposite. It's exactly the same with referees but we only take notice of the instances when it goes against us (which there's been a higher amount than usual this season).

Personally i do think poor refereeing has impacted our season. But it's more minor than the injuries and the knock on effects that's had in terms of personnel available, tiredness, loss of form. Like I said on a thread about FSG, people want to look for a single reason or an area to point blame when things go wrong. The referees have played some small part in our season so far. So has not buying Ben Davies or Ozan Kabak on 1st January. Personally I think it's a multitude of reasons that have got us to this point. A lot of them down to bad luck and circumstance. Maybe more minor are refs and some of the internal decisions we've made. It doesn't make it easier for people who want to point a finger of blame for our struggles this season but it's probably closer to the truth than there is a conspiracy between referees to derail our season. Just my opinion of course.

[Wullie160975]

Can we rename it to 'Why are refs so shite'?

[UntouchableLuis]

The one thing that seems odd to me is the amount of time they have taken to look at things involving us - e.g the disallowed goal at the end vs Everton at Goodison where they got all the squiggly lines out and took ages but then the ref in the home derby glanced at the screen for 3 seconds and gave a pen. Ok, one is an offside and one is a penalty for a foul but the second incident still requires longer to look at as it's subjective.

Seems like there's been a lot of occasions where VAR has tried to find something to rule out a goal from us but if it's against us then it doesn't take too long to sort out.

We saw glimpses of this last season too - the foul on Origi in the build up to United's goal at OT springs to mind - where stuff seems to just get ignored yet then you had Bobby's 'offside' vs Villa where they take an age to try and prove we are offside.

I think most refs are incompetent but the following have a clear agenda against us for quite obvious reasons:

Coote
Taylor
Moss

[Dim Glas]

With all due respect to a healthy debate and some opinions in here, it did take a good 15-20 mins to pore over the stats I compiled for the lengthy post on page 1.

That is literally black and white statistical proof of these things:

In every big league in Europe, the side with the most final third possession, passes and pressures is also the most fouled.

In the Premier League, the team with the most final third possessions, passes and pressures is Liverpool.

Liverpool are the 19th most fouled team in the division; meaning we are also the only team in the top 10 European leagues that doesn’t fit the first statement I made.

How do you explain that if not for an actual, tangible bias? Even anecdotally, think of some of the absolute horror shite we’ve had called against us this season. Not singling out anyone, but a poster above said they’ve noticed that Man City players face players up more one-on-one so thus must draw more fouls. This is again anecdotal - look at Statsbomb and you can see it’s actually us with most final-third take-ons, with Mo Salah particularly prominent (only Grealish, Sterling, Neto and Traore have more individual take-ons and we also have Sadio Mane in the top 10 and Bobby in the top 15, Sterling is City’s only player there) - we have over 40 more total attempts to beat a defender than City. Yet we’ve been fouled so, so much less.

I know there’s the ‘eye test’ in football but there’s also masses of compiled data that unequivocally shows what happens and how often on the pitch in the Premier League. And it’s raising some extremely interesting questions, such as; how are we literally the only team out of nearly 200 across the top European leagues who are not fitting into the confirmed statistical model of final third presence equalling most fouls awarded?

And from the above:
In every big league in Europe, the side with the most final third possession, passes and pressures is also the most fouled.

In the Premier League, the team with the most final third possessions, passes and pressures is Liverpool.

Liverpool are the 19th most fouled team in the division.

Is what needs to be the reply to every fucker on social media or wherever who claims that Liverpool aren’t hard done by.

Thanks for taking the time DS, certainly opened my eyes to the actual numbers.  It’s mad.

[Something Worse]

City are like the 17th most fouled team though

[Drinks Sangria]

City are like the 17th most fouled team though

Also somewhat of an outlier really - which I suppose reinforces the wider point that this league's refs are incompetent as well as the bias against us.

It should be noted that City have the ball in the middle third overwhelmingly more than they do elsewhere (statistically the area of the pitch with least contested duels and fouls), they pass more in the middle third than anyone, and the typical action they take in the middle third is Rodri passing sideways to John Stones - essentially they manage their games better than anyone in the league and use, in a way, Rodger's old 'resting on the ball' tactic. They then perforate this with moments of extreme decisiveness when they go forward. Their general take-ons is middling and their final third pressures is very low, possibly explaining why they're fouled less than other teams.

By and large though, when you fit the same numbers we've measured Liverpool by, City should probably be the 6th or 7th most fouled team in the league and they're actually 16th. Which is odd. Villa being the most fouled seems to be entirely because Jack Grealish attempts more dribbles per 90 than any player in the league, is top 10 for take-ons and has more accumulated time with the ball at his feet than any player in the league.

My interpretation of the stats is this - we're getting fucked over, Sheffield Utd are getting fucked over, then there's some mild bullshit going on that has negatively impacted Arsenal and Man City. West Ham, Aston Villa, Spurs, Brighton, Everton, WBA and Newcastle are all getting, on the flipside, what would seem to be an ungodly amount of decisions based on their stats profiles.

[tubby]

How far back have you gone, Sangria?  Is there any pattern over the past 5 years?

[Jookie]

By and large though, when you fit the same numbers we've measured Liverpool by, City should probably be the 6th or 7th most fouled team in the league and they're actually 16th. Which is odd. Villa being the most fouled seems to be entirely because Jack Grealish attempts more dribbles per 90 than any player in the league, is top 10 for take-ons and has more accumulated time with the ball at his feet than any player in the league.

Thanks for pulling this together DS. Really interesting and thought provoking.

One question I had is the influence of individuals on the team stats. You've highlighted Grealish here. I think Zaha is another player who is fouled a huge amount of times compared to, what might be considered better players. How much do the fouls on those 2 players, who are the key threats in their respective teams, influence the overall team numbers?

In the context if Liverpool, I think Mane is one of the most fouled players in the league. On the flip side, and where I think there is some negative bias that might affect the numbers you have pulled  together, is Salah's numbers. For the top scorer in the league, who has possession of the ball in the final 3rd a fair bit and has numerous attempts at dribbling past opponents,  to be deemed to be fouled so little looks odd. Personally whilst I've argued that I don't think there's widespread bias against Liverpool as a team, and more poor refereeing, I do think there is bias from referees against Salah. It's clear that he does go to ground too easily on occasions. But more often than not he's man handled game after game and yet can't seem to buy a free kick on occasions.

How much of Salah being an outlier do you think dictates Liverpool being an outlier in the stats you shared?

[rob1966]

The one thing that seems odd to me is the amount of time they have taken to look at things involving us - e.g the disallowed goal at the end vs Everton at Goodison where they got all the squiggly lines out and took ages but then the ref in the home derby glanced at the screen for 3 seconds and gave a pen. Ok, one is an offside and one is a penalty for a foul but the second incident still requires longer to look at as it's subjective.

Seems like there's been a lot of occasions where VAR has tried to find something to rule out a goal from us but if it's against us then it doesn't take too long to sort out.

We saw glimpses of this last season too - the foul on Origi in the build up to United's goal at OT springs to mind - where stuff seems to just get ignored yet then you had Bobby's 'offside' vs Villa where they take an age to try and prove we are offside.

I think most refs are incompetent but the following have a clear agenda against us for quite obvious reasons:

Coote
Taylor
Moss

Add in Bobbys winner v Spurs when they spent an age trying to find a foul when Dier threw himself to the ground. Then Salahs at Brighton where the defender is running right to left, so his left side of his body is nearest the goal and they drew the line from his right foot to Mo, even though its physically impossible to run naturally and have your right foot beyond your left hip.

[rob1966]

I do think there is bias from referees against Salah. It's clear that he does go to ground too easily on occasions. But more often than not he's man handled game after game and yet can't seem to buy a free kick on occasions.

Someone said it the other day, Salah doesn't actually know how to fall and make it look like a foul, he's too honest. Rashford admitted Mourinho coached him how to go down when touched and they practice it. Fernandes adds screaming like a girl to make sure he gets his free kicks.

[Something Worse]

Also somewhat of an outlier really - which I suppose reinforces the wider point that this league's refs are incompetent as well as the bias against us.

It should be noted that City have the ball in the middle third overwhelmingly more than they do elsewhere (statistically the area of the pitch with least contested duels and fouls), they pass more in the middle third than anyone, and the typical action they take in the middle third is Rodri passing sideways to John Stones - essentially they manage their games better than anyone in the league and use, in a way, Rodger's old 'resting on the ball' tactic. They then perforate this with moments of extreme decisiveness when they go forward. Their general take-ons is middling and their final third pressures is very low, possibly explaining why they're fouled less than other teams.

By and large though, when you fit the same numbers we've measured Liverpool by, City should probably be the 6th or 7th most fouled team in the league and they're actually 16th. Which is odd. Villa being the most fouled seems to be entirely because Jack Grealish attempts more dribbles per 90 than any player in the league, is top 10 for take-ons and has more accumulated time with the ball at his feet than any player in the league.

My interpretation of the stats is this - we're getting fucked over, Sheffield Utd are getting fucked over, then there's some mild bullshit going on that has negatively impacted Arsenal and Man City. West Ham, Aston Villa, Spurs, Brighton, Everton, WBA and Newcastle are all getting, on the flipside, what would seem to be an ungodly amount of decisions based on their stats profiles.

Thank you for this, that makes a lot of sense!

[wah00ey]

Someone said it the other day, Salah doesn't actually know how to fall and make it look like a foul, he's too honest. Rashford admitted Mourinho coached him how to go down when touched and they practice it. Fernandes adds screaming like a girl to make sure he gets his free kicks.

That might have been me.  He throws his head back and over-exaggerates making it clearly look like a dive even though foul contact has been made.

[Something Worse]

To be honest they're all really bad at diving, it's just a combination of incompetent refs and "contact = penalty" being an unofficial rule thanks to announcers and pundits.

Rashford's dive at the weekend was insane. He might have touched toes with the defender, lifts his foot, then pulls it back and craters to the floor. Not a single action was the result of any contact whatsoever.

(It's not just him, he's just the most recent example)

[Drinks Sangria]

How far back have you gone, Sangria?  Is there any pattern over the past 5 years?

As I'm doing this during a few 'quiet' spells while working from home, I've looked at this season in isolation, Tubbs  I had a peer at last year's stats and in short terms, we're getting given less than we were last year, despite the fact that we still weren't probably getting what we should this year. It's been noticeably awful this season. When I have more time this weekend I'll do a deep dive on WhyScout and FootChart and can see if there's any consistent pattern. One thing it's worth adding to an earlier post I did about refereeing selections, is that only two refs can be described as having given 'favourable' decisions to us this season that we've benefited from. They've reffed 3 of our games total. Refs who have given 'unfavourable' decisions have reffed 21. We've played 25 matches.

Thanks for pulling this together DS. Really interesting and thought provoking.

One question I had is the influence of individuals on the team stats. You've highlighted Grealish here. I think Zaha is another player who is fouled a huge amount of times compared to, what might be considered better players. How much do the fouls on those 2 players, who are the key threats in their respective teams, influence the overall team numbers?

In the context if Liverpool, I think Mane is one of the most fouled players in the league. On the flip side, and where I think there is some negative bias that might affect the numbers you have pulled  together, is Salah's numbers. For the top scorer in the league, who has possession of the ball in the final 3rd a fair bit and has numerous attempts at dribbling past opponents,  to be deemed to be fouled so little looks odd. Personally whilst I've argued that I don't think there's widespread bias against Liverpool as a team, and more poor refereeing, I do think there is bias from referees against Salah. It's clear that he does go to ground too easily on occasions. But more often than not he's man handled game after game and yet can't seem to buy a free kick on occasions.

How much of Salah being an outlier do you think dictates Liverpool being an outlier in the stats you shared?

Good pick there - noticing about Zaha and Grealish because what you've inferred, to my interpretation, is absolutely bang on, some players have a disproportionate percentage of their teams total fouls. I've looked at the most fouled players and how this correlates with the areas these players take up, how prolific they are, and the amount of duels they contest.

15% of all fouls against Aston Villa are on Jack Grealish. 8% of all of Palace's are Zaha (last season he was fouled a lot more, oddly James McCarthur is now their most fouled, 13% of the time). Most team's most fouled player seems to generally suffer around 9% - 11% of their teams total fouls. Sadio Mane is our most fouled, with 13.73% - he has the ball in the final third more than any player other than Mo (tied with Robbo).

Laughably, hilariously, Mo Salah is our 8th most fouled player - level with Nat Phillips, a player with 5 apps this season to Mo's 31. A player who has literally touched the ball over 1,000 times less than Mo. So yes, overwhelmingly, mind-bogglingly, there's a bias against Salah. Mo Salah, the player with 4th most shots in the league, the most goals, the most touches inside the box, 4 assists, top 5 for touches in the final third - he has apparently only been fouled 12 times - 4.7% (keeping in mind we probably have around 100 - 150 less fouls total than we statistically should at this point and that are total is very low to begin with).

In every league in Europe, the Top Scorer is also in the top 10 most fouled. They're also always in the Top 5 most fouled in the final third. Mo Salah isn't even in the top 100 most fouled Premier League players. Rhian Brewster has been fouled more than Mo Apparently. As has Branislav Ivanovic, he of 8 appearances and less than 700 minutes. How about attacking, 7 apps dynamo Christian Fuchs? Or 35 year old fourth choice striker with 3 starts, Billy Sharp. They've all been fouled more times than Mo Salah.

Wow. Draw your own conclusions.

[Hazell]

Salah has a reputation for diving and so it feeds into him not getting free kicks.

On Saturday, Carragher was constantly on about Kabak being booked twice in two games, that's where that kind of thing starts, people listen to it, pick up on it and it snowballs. Wouldn't be surprised if that one sticks as well.

[Hazell]

Thanks for your posts in here, really stark reading some of those stats.

[TheMissionary]

15% of all fouls against Aston Villa are on Jack Grealish. 8% of all of Palace's are Zaha

To me, it's important to point out that this is fouls awarded, they are not necessarily all fouls.  Both Grealish and Zaha are not strangers to throwing themselves on the deck.  Unfortunately the stats are facts and don't reflect the previously mentioned "football eye".
(The way he wears his socks and his shin pads if Grealish was really fouled that often he'd have been out for a long time with something career threatening).

[rob1966]

That might have been me.  He throws his head back and over-exaggerates making it clearly look like a dive even though foul contact has been made.

Sadly, as Hazell says, he has a rep for diving, so he's had it. He needs to watch videos on how the divers do it and then change his shirt number from 11 to confuse the refs into thinking its not him going down.

Kane and Delle Alli look like they are trying to fly like Superman the way they chuck themselves in the air, but they aren't labelled as divers, English and not from a Muslim country have anything to do with it?

[Something Worse]

15% of all fouls against Aston Villa are on Jack Grealish. 8% of all of Palace's are Zaha

To me, it's important to point out that this is fouls awarded, they are not necessarily all fouls.  Both Grealish and Zaha are not strangers to throwing themselves on the deck.  Unfortunately the stats are facts and don't reflect the previously mentioned "football eye".
(The way he wears his socks and his shin pads if Grealish was really fouled that often he'd have been out for a long time with something career threatening).

Yeah that's the point: Salah only gets "fouled" once every three games or whatever.

[markmywords]

Salah doesn't seem contest a lot of headers, might be why he has few fouls awarded against him.

A lot of these fouls awarded against people are from aerial duels

[Crosby Nick]

Salah doesn't seem contest a lot of headers, might be why he has few fouls awarded against him.

A lot of these fouls awarded against people are from aerial duels

Ashley Barnes is always near the top of the most fouled list the cheating flopping twat.

[alonsoisared]

Never go full blue moon

Basically everything listed in that OP is exactly the same stuff as what city fans spent last year alleging and we all rightly mocked them for.

Just to pick a few of them out- the media. Let's be fair here due to our standing in the game the media is absolutely full of Liverpool supporters and former players. Fans of every other club in the country moan endlessly about that fact. Of course, there's also plenty of United influence which can balance it out but on TV and in the papers we are represented probably more than any other club. Who have City got? Paulo Wanchope have a column in the mirror I don't know about?

Complaining about the treatment Salah and Mane get is to ignore the simple truth that the pair of them do flop down very easily and neither are particularly good at masking it. It's part of the game, truthfully I'd rather they got better at it than just cutting it out altogether because we might win a few more penalties that way. I don't know why it's considered so wrong to admit as much because everybody else in the world can see it 3 or 4 times a game.

The Super League stuff can surely be batted away by the fact that we aren't the only ones pushing for it. United, City, Arsenal, whoever else would surely be equally targeted.

As for the Manchester Mafia, well, that's the most Bluemoon shout of them all. We were "the cartel" to them last season and now it's their turn to be the "mafia". What standing do Manchester City have in the game? People are either completely indifferent or in the case of the Premier League and UEFA considered a threat.

It's been a stinker of a season all round. Everton away was a disgraceful refereeing performance. We've had a few shit calls. But the story isn't a conspiracy against Liverpool, the story is of how utterly awful the refereeing in this country is. So many teams can point to games where they've been completely robbed by ridiculous VAR decisions this season, and we are just one of them.

It's not our year lads. Everything's gone against us. Don't look for answers where there aren't any. If we were playing at the level of last year there'd be no conversation.

[Dim Glas]

Never go full blue moon

Basically everything listed in that OP is exactly the same stuff as what city fans spent last year alleging and we all rightly mocked them for.

Just to pick a few of them out- the media. Let's be fair here due to our standing in the game the media is absolutely full of Liverpool supporters and former players. Fans of every other club in the country moan endlessly about that fact. Of course, there's also plenty of United influence which can balance it out but on TV and in the papers we are represented probably more than any other club. Who have City got? Paulo Wanchope have a column in the mirror I don't know about?

Complaining about the treatment Salah and Mane get is to ignore the simple truth that the pair of them do flop down very easily and neither are particularly good at masking it. It's part of the game, truthfully I'd rather they got better at it than just cutting it out altogether because we might win a few more penalties that way. I don't know why it's considered so wrong to admit as much because everybody else in the world can see it 3 or 4 times a game.

The Super League stuff can surely be batted away by the fact that we aren't the only ones pushing for it. United, City, Arsenal, whoever else would surely be equally targeted.

As for the Manchester Mafia, well, that's the most Bluemoon shout of them all. We were "the cartel" to them last season and now it's their turn to be the "mafia". What standing do Manchester City have in the game? People are either completely indifferent or in the case of the Premier League and UEFA considered a threat.

It's been a stinker of a season all round. Everton away was a disgraceful refereeing performance. We've had a few shit calls. But the story isn't a conspiracy against Liverpool, the story is of how utterly awful the refereeing in this country is. So many teams can point to games where they've been completely robbed by ridiculous VAR decisions this season, and we are just one of them.

It's not our year lads. Everything's gone against us. Don't look for answers where there aren't any. If we were playing at the level of last year there'd be no conversation.

what about lasses?

Love how stuck in the 70’s football fans here still are.

You love a whinge at Salah diving don’t ya!

[Fromola]

Never go full blue moon

Basically everything listed in that OP is exactly the same stuff as what city fans spent last year alleging and we all rightly mocked them for.

And what cause did City fans have last season? Not getting a pen for the one time at Anfield under Pep? it only needs one decision to go against them and they go mental. We've had a season of it.

For one thing City had 11 penalties last season and we had 5.

United had 14, a Premier League record, as the refs gifted them a CL place. Instead everyone did their nut because Liverpool got some VAR decisions (and plenty against).

[oldman]

Never go full blue moon

Basically everything listed in that OP is exactly the same stuff as what city fans spent last year alleging and we all rightly mocked them for.

Just to pick a few of them out- the media. Let's be fair here due to our standing in the game the media is absolutely full of Liverpool supporters and former players. Fans of every other club in the country moan endlessly about that fact. Of course, there's also plenty of United influence which can balance it out but on TV and in the papers we are represented probably more than any other club. Who have City got? Paulo Wanchope have a column in the mirror I don't know about?

Complaining about the treatment Salah and Mane get is to ignore the simple truth that the pair of them do flop down very easily and neither are particularly good at masking it. It's part of the game, truthfully I'd rather they got better at it than just cutting it out altogether because we might win a few more penalties that way. I don't know why it's considered so wrong to admit as much because everybody else in the world can see it 3 or 4 times a game.

The Super League stuff can surely be batted away by the fact that we aren't the only ones pushing for it. United, City, Arsenal, whoever else would surely be equally targeted.

As for the Manchester Mafia, well, that's the most Bluemoon shout of them all. We were "the cartel" to them last season and now it's their turn to be the "mafia". What standing do Manchester City have in the game? People are either completely indifferent or in the case of the Premier League and UEFA considered a threat.

It's been a stinker of a season all round. Everton away was a disgraceful refereeing performance. We've had a few shit calls. But the story isn't a conspiracy against Liverpool, the story is of how utterly awful the refereeing in this country is. So many teams can point to games where they've been completely robbed by ridiculous VAR decisions this season, and we are just one of them.

It's not our year lads. Everything's gone against us. Don't look for answers where there aren't any. If we were playing at the level of last year there'd be no conversation.

I would have been with you on this except that the stats that have been posted are incredible.

Mo not even in the top 100 most fouled
19th in fouls awarded despite being the team with the most touches

its just ridiculous

[Fromola]

I would have been with you on this except that the stats that have been posted are incredible.

Mo not even in the top 100 most fouled
19th in fouls awarded despite being the team with the most touches

its just ridiculous

It's all well and good anyone saying "you're just acting like City fans". City fans are crying bastards by default. They had no cause to be acting like that. They took the piss out of FFP rules, cheated and got away with it on a technicality, by hotshot lawyers, and still act like it's all a conspiracy against them.

They had more twice as many pens last season as a dominant Liverpool team got - and less VAR overturns - but the refs all favoured us and were out to get them. They were just put out because they thought they'd seen us off the year before and we upstaged them in Madrid and then ran away with the league. I don't give a shit that they're running away with the league this season, i'm glad to see them stop United and hope they beat Everton in the cup. We can't compete anyway with the injuries we've had, but these refs are going to cost us a CL place, a year after gifting one to United.

Just imagine them having to deal with the decisions we've had this season. They'd have burnt down Stockley Park months ago.

[markmywords]

Never go full blue moon

Basically everything listed in that OP is exactly the same stuff as what city fans spent last year alleging and we all rightly mocked them for.

Just to pick a few of them out- the media. Let's be fair here due to our standing in the game the media is absolutely full of Liverpool supporters and former players. Fans of every other club in the country moan endlessly about that fact. Of course, there's also plenty of United influence which can balance it out but on TV and in the papers we are represented probably more than any other club. Who have City got? Paulo Wanchope have a column in the mirror I don't know about?

Complaining about the treatment Salah and Mane get is to ignore the simple truth that the pair of them do flop down very easily and neither are particularly good at masking it. It's part of the game, truthfully I'd rather they got better at it than just cutting it out altogether because we might win a few more penalties that way. I don't know why it's considered so wrong to admit as much because everybody else in the world can see it 3 or 4 times a game.

The Super League stuff can surely be batted away by the fact that we aren't the only ones pushing for it. United, City, Arsenal, whoever else would surely be equally targeted.

As for the Manchester Mafia, well, that's the most Bluemoon shout of them all. We were "the cartel" to them last season and now it's their turn to be the "mafia". What standing do Manchester City have in the game? People are either completely indifferent or in the case of the Premier League and UEFA considered a threat.

It's been a stinker of a season all round. Everton away was a disgraceful refereeing performance. We've had a few shit calls. But the story isn't a conspiracy against Liverpool, the story is of how utterly awful the refereeing in this country is. So many teams can point to games where they've been completely robbed by ridiculous VAR decisions this season, and we are just one of them.

It's not our year lads. Everything's gone against us. Don't look for answers where there aren't any. If we were playing at the level of last year there'd be no conversation.

Wise words.

We must reject a loser's mentality, sometimes this forum has resembled a Deontay Wilder diary entry, as we summon a series of new external reasons for our setbacks.

Salah  has completed less dribbles per PL game in each season, since he joined us. But gets more fouls 0.7 than last season 0.5. looks like refs love his new hairstyle or something

[Dim Glas]

Wise words

Wherewas I agree the title of the post is really poor and more fitting of a few other forums no doubt.

There is actually a lot of good posts in the thread worthy of reading, which one or two seem to have purposely skipped.

[Hazell]

Also the truth of the matter isn't really that they flop down very easily, when in fact they tend to stay on their feet frequently, Sarah in particular. I've lost count of the number of times he's been dragged back and he's stayed on his feet and nothing gets given. So yeah, not really wise words.

[Fromola]

Also the truth of the matter isn't really that they flop down very easily, when in fact they tend to stay on their feet frequently, Sarah in particular. I've lost count of the number of times he's been dragged back and he's stayed on his feet and nothing gets given. So yeah, not really wise words.

Yeah, the truth of the matter is Salah and Mane aren't professional cheats like Rashford, Kane, Grealish, Sterling Maddison, Vardy et al. Basically the England team, or even no marks like Ashley Barnes.

Mane and Salah tend to go down when obstructed or fouled because they know they'll never get a decision staying on their feet, but when they go down it looks un-natural. They've started to do it a bit more because whenever a player goes down in our box from the slightest touch it's a penalty, so why not play their game? The real cheats know how to manipulate their falls and initiate contact and do it constantly and get more decisions and less media scrutiny.

Then you've got Bruno Fernandes who doesn't even try to hide being a cheat and is still hailed as a genius and gets the foul every time.

[markmywords]

Yeah, the truth of the matter is Salah and Mane aren't professional cheats like Rashford, Kane, Grealish, Sterling Maddison, Vardy et al. Basically the England team, or even no marks like Ashley Barnes.

Mane and Salah tend to go down when obstructed or fouled because they know they'll never get a decision staying on their feet, but when they go down it looks un-natural. The real cheats know how to manipulate their falls and initiate contact and do it constantly and get more decisions and less media scrutiny.

Then you've got Bruno Fernandes who doesn't even try to hide being a cheat and is still hailed as a genius and gets the foul every time.

Vardy (0.6) gets less fouls per game than salah (0.7)

[rob1966]

Vardy (0.6) gets less fouls per game than salah (0.7)

Vardy averages 0.5 dribbles per game, Mo 1.2. Vardy makes 11 passes a game, Mo 36

[Legs]

Salah has a reputation for diving and so it feeds into him not getting free kicks.

On Saturday, Carragher was constantly on about Kabak being booked twice in two games, that's where that kind of thing starts, people listen to it, pick up on it and it snowballs. Wouldn't be surprised if that one sticks as well.

Kabak has 3 yellows in 3 games and 2 of em shouldnt have been given.

Carragher is a twat he made it clear after 10 mins he didnt like Kabak and singled him out ALL game.

He doesmt seem to like Salah much either....makes you wonder why doesnt it.

Salah does go down easily aka diving BUT so does Kane Vardy Alli Rashford Fernandes Sterling and NONE of them get the same coverage.

The sooner football is on clubs on tv stations the better nobody wants to watch a game and feel drained listened to Carra G.Nev and Tyler.

[wenlock]

Wow Vardy, second in the all time pens won list isn't he but never gets fouled.

[Hazell]

Kabak has 3 yellows in 3 games and 2 of em shouldnt have been given.

Carragher is a twat he made it clear after 10 mins he didnt like Kabak and singled him out ALL game.

He doesmt seem to like Salah much either....makes you wonder why doesnt it.

Salah does go down easily aka diving BUT so does Kane Vardy Alli Rashford Fernandes Sterling and NONE of them get the same coverage.

The sooner football is on clubs on tv stations the better nobody wants to watch a game and feel drained listened to Carra G.Nev and Tyler.

Agree about Kabak, Carragher spent the whole game slagging him off on Saturday.

See, I  think, like others have said, that Salah is a bad diver, whenever he does go to ground, he can't make it look natural. But he frequently tries to stay on his feet as well, even when there's a blatant foul on him. See Pogba dragging him back and nothing being given in the recent FA Cup game.

[Drinks Sangria]

Vardy (0.6) gets less fouls per game than salah (0.7)

He also touches the ball less than every single other player in the Leicester team and is perennially offside - top 3 in the division. I get you’re saying this because he was highlighted as a diver in a previous post, but it’s not really absolving the situation of it’s current absurdity, as much as we’d prefer to see the logic in this situation.

Just in case you wanted to see, this link will take you to the foul stats for the Premier League - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/fouls - you may notice Mo Salah is the 195th most fouled footballer in the division. I don’t think I need to relay the same set of statistics out that show why that is patently absurd.

I suppose, ultimately, I just cannot understand the need to defend the anti-ref and bias proving stance to our own fans. You’ve seen the games, you yourselves can go and pull all the stats discussed in this thread. Literal statistical proof of something extremely odd. So what are we saying, that there’s a problem here or that we are just experiencing the biggest statistical anomaly relating to refereeing decisions in the history of 21st Century European Football?

[Yorkykopite]

I'm tempted to say that referees are hurting us because we've shown too much self-pity. Mobs are famous for attacking individuals who plead with them, or who beg for mercy. It's almost as if the mob's sense of common humanity (the only thing that might restrain them) is undermined by a show of humanity ("please don't hurt me"). It's the supreme paradox. The "please don't hurt" somehow acts as a goad. You only have to look at the opening post to see why it might provoke such feelings. The self-pity in the question makes you want to put the boot in!

But, on reflection, I'm not sure it can explain what is going on with referees and Liverpool. I think we have come in for some rough treatment this season, but I don't believe the players and the coach have shown any self-pity.

However, they haven't been as snarly as they might have been. It was very noticeable in the Goodison derby how our players seemed to shrug their shoulders at all the bad decisions and the dangerous tackles. And that has continued. Imagine Roy Keane captaining a team in those circumstances. Mo Salah doesn't have any self-pity in him (I don't think) but he's so....happy...all the time. I'm sure that one of the reasons that refs let him get perpetually fouled is that he doesn't seem to hold a grudge. Sadio too. 

On top of that we've missed the Anfield crowd. Some of the decisions that have gone against us at Anfield would never have been made if the fans had been in. No ref enjoys a toxic Anfield and no ref can keep on resisting massed cries of 'penalty' at the Kop end of the ground. We get some unbelievable decisions going our way when the ground is full. We've missed that.