Author Topic: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?  (Read 9956 times)

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Even the most mild mannered and even handed Liverpool fan must see something is not right this season with the way our games are being officiated. The vast majority of the big decisions go against us - on the pitch and VAR. The underlying stats are awful as well by any metric for all the small decisions and we can't breathe on an opponent without conceding a pen or free kick.

We've always had officials that had it in for us. Martin Atkinson and Anthony Taylor in particular would always be ones to avoid (probably Lee Mason as well). In general though before this season, unless it was one those officials who obviously don't like us, we'd generally be treated even handedly. Not this season that's for sure.

The frustrating thing as well has been that it comes under the catch all term of 'VAR' when it's more sinister than a three letter word, what we've dealt with this season.

What reason do you think this is, if you had to say? I've listed a few that could be a contributing cause.

A big backlash to the club for speaking out against Davey Coote and VAR/the officials after the Derby.

Media influences - i.e. Salah and Mane even by our own 'legends' are branded cheats on Sky and the like and we're generally an easy target

- A backlash against the club from POGMOL/Premier League for being at the forefront of potentially Super Leagues in the future which would affect the Premier League brand.

A backlash against the club for being at the forefront of project restart against the wishes of the geriatric refs who were content on furlough or whatever

The Manchester mafia. Half of these refs are from Manchester. We know what that place thinks of our club.

Mike Riley. Wouldn't trust this fucker as far as I could throw him.

They're just incompetent and it's a genuine coincidence that the incompetence never works in our favour but all these decisions go against us all season long




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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2021, 01:10:46 pm »
Been a long, long list of referees that have put the boot into Liverpool over the years.

One of them even admitted it and said that they routinely gave Manchester United decisions, so from there it's not much of a leap to suppose that if they favour a club then they'll not be favouring a rival of that club.

It's got to the stage where it's not even debatable. I've seen a couple on here saying "Nothinggoing on, come up with some facts and figures" so I listed about 30 I remembered off the top of my head THIS SEASON and then they go all quiet and mumble that all is well.

It's happening in literally every single game and there is no place of appeal, there is no punishment dished out and worse, the league, referees and pundits are all in agreement that there is nothing to see.
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Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2021, 01:18:23 pm »
All of the above and more.

There's clearly no written plan in place, as they are not clever enough (Premier League, PGMOL etc) to have a directed, targeted set of structures to derail our season without getting out. There's certainly the idea that the seed has been implicitly planted within the minds of many.

All these things have come together in one way or another to make us the most targeted and badly refereed team the league has ever known.

There should be a mandatory age for refs to retire (we're allowing fat blokes in their 50s to try and keep up with elite mid-20s atheletes?) and if they want to carry on after that age, should need to be able to pass some fairly rigorous fitness tests. Refs should have to be promoted via a body of work in each professional division before they can become a Premier League ref and their should be a fixed salary with no bonuses or added match fees.

They should offer to train ex-players as referees also.
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2021, 01:28:40 pm »
All of the above and more.

There's clearly no written plan in place, as they are not clever enough (Premier League, PGMOL etc) to have a directed, targeted set of structures to derail our season without getting out. There's certainly the idea that the seed has been implicitly planted within the minds of many.

All these things have come together in one way or another to make us the most targeted and badly refereed team the league has ever known.

There should be a mandatory age for refs to retire (we're allowing fat blokes in their 50s to try and keep up with elite mid-20s atheletes?) and if they want to carry on after that age, should need to be able to pass some fairly rigorous fitness tests. Refs should have to be promoted via a body of work in each professional division before they can become a Premier League ref and their should be a fixed salary with no bonuses or added match fees.

They should offer to train ex-players as referees also.
Just read that ex ref Mark Clattenburg thinks Trent should’ve been sent off , by the letter of the law, for bringing down Lewin. He said _Lewin had an open goal so Trent lifted his head up to initiate contact!!! So Trent wasn’t knee’d in the back of the head, he actually raised his head to initiate contact! 😂😂😂😂 Inother words he used his head to trip up the attacker! 😂😂😂 . What the fuck have we done to these people that officiate our game?

Offline gjr1

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2021, 01:32:32 pm »
I think you’ll find all fans of their teams will think the same way

I don’t accept the theory that refs are biased against any team... they’re just bad referees. Most if not all of them

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Offline mainone

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2021, 01:35:18 pm »
      prem league ref training                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9nDHupVqVw                               

Offline jedimaster

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2021, 01:35:23 pm »
Anybody who doesn't think we have been unfairly treated in some way by referees in England this season should compare our Premier League games with our Champions League games. There is more than enough evidence to show a marked difference.
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Offline gjr1

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2021, 01:37:46 pm »
Anybody who doesn't think we have been unfairly treated in some way by referees in England this season should compare our Premier League games with our Champions League games. There is more than enough evidence to show a marked difference.

Maybe that’s just the quality of the referees?
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Offline jedimaster

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2021, 01:39:43 pm »
Maybe that’s just the quality of the referees?

There is no doubt the quality of referees is higher in the Champions League, and their approach is different. But they also seem to be more even handed towards us in their decisions.
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2021, 01:40:32 pm »
JM55 is gonna have an absolutely field day with this
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2021, 01:42:03 pm »
I think you’ll find all fans of their teams will think the same way

I don’t accept the theory that refs are biased against any team... they’re just bad referees. Most if not all of them

I generally agree. Every single fan seems to think refs have something against their club.

That said it does seem like the officiating this season for our games has been exceptionally bad - most notably and frustratingly in terms of VAR decisions (because I can normally forgive real time refereeing decisions done in error)

I think it is possible for there to be an unconscious culture bias form against certain teams at certain times - depending on media uproar and all the rest of it.

There was a lot of people claiming that things generally went for us last season in comparison to other teams (I can't be arsed actually arguing this point as I don't care all that much), coupled with a general desire to see the most recent reigning champions fail, especially when they ensured the league was a one horse race the previous season. That coupled with consistent media and pundit-fed narratives that our attackers are some how far and away the worst for diving, and I don't think it is much of a stretch to think that a certain culture of bias amongst officials against us would form at this particular time.

And I'm not going to lie, I find the amount of Manc referees who end up officiating our games to be quite astounding.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2021, 01:44:34 pm »
Just read that ex ref Mark Clattenburg thinks Trent should’ve been sent off , by the letter of the law, for bringing down Lewin. He said _Lewin had an open goal so Trent lifted his head up to initiate contact!!! So Trent wasn’t knee’d in the back of the head, he actually raised his head to initiate contact! 😂😂😂😂 Inother words he used his head to trip up the attacker! 😂😂😂 . What the fuck have we done to these people that officiate our game?
I'm sick of these ref pundits commenting on incidents in isolation.
It's fine asking them about incidents like that, if they then get asked to justify why other decisions (that have gone against us) were made.

OK Mark, so you think that was, can you explain why (Mane's v Newcastle for example) wasn't.

I can hear the answer now, which will probably be the "wasn't clear and obvious", at which point he's asked why the Robertson one V Brighton was given.

It's easy to explain away isolated incidents, it becomes more difficult when trying to explain a series of strange decisions, because there is no way out other than admitting that refereeing and VAR is unfit for purpose.


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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2021, 01:49:30 pm »
Don’t get me on about VAR especially for those millimeter offside decisions because that is not being made by a referee (as far as I know)

There are ‘independent’ people determining presumably when the ball left the players foot (for the pass) and then the even stranger which part of each player is most forward.

When a single frame / whatever measurement they have in place can change the decision I don’t trust that at all. I never will
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Offline jedimaster

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2021, 01:57:57 pm »
Mostly I only watch our matches so I can't compare to for example Serie A or La Liga, but it is seems to me that the Premier League interpretation of VAR is totally farcical. I am sick of the drawing of lines on the pitch after every goal to see if someone's elbow was a millimetre offside, and penalty decisions like the one against Fabinho against Sheff Utd.

Are other leagues having situations like this every week?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 08:00:42 pm by jedimaster »
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2021, 02:13:41 pm »
I think you’ll find all fans of their teams will think the same way

I don’t accept the theory that refs are biased against any team... they’re just bad referees. Most if not all of them

Just nailed a few cliches at once there. Kudos.

1. Yeah they probably do. Thats because fans generally like to think their team is 'up against it' because it makes it easier to excuse if they dont win. Just because 'every teams fans think the same way' doesnt suddenly mean that it couldnt possibly be true for any club.

2. Ok right but with 'bad referees' you surely get some sort of evening out. Except we dont, do we? What we see are certain clubs getting a lot of decisions for them that they shouldnt get, and a few clubs (or club) getting a lot of decisions go against them that shouldnt.

Not meant to you personally, or any specific poster of course, but if you think we're being officiated to the same standard as everyone else this season then you're a fucking idiot.

There are enough stats, purely numbers, out there to show that its highly unlikely we're being refereed fairly. Thats taking any sort of bias out of it. The amount of touches we have vs the amount of fouls against. The touches in the area compared to the amount of penalties. The amount some of our players are fouled compared to other players.

Just as an example, Ashley Barnes has been fouled 3.3 times per 90 minutes this season. In comparison, Mo Salah has been foiled 0.8 times per 90 minutes. Does that sound right to you? I'm sure you watch Liverpool games. You think Ashley Barnes is fouled 4 times more often than Mo Salah? Ahh no right, just bad refereeing. From all of the referees. Against the same two players. Gotcha.

There are many, many different sites and accounts all with their own 'VAR' table, all showing Liverpool stone last in terms of how its impacted us this season. You watched the derby I assume? Both of them? So you think the decisions going against us there were just 'bad refereeing'. You dont think there's a slight possibility that David Coote felt some sort of animosity towards us and let that impact the decisions he made? Because when Pickford put our best player out for the season, he went unpunished. PGMOL and the PL changed their story twice on the day about why that happened. David Coote has not officiated us since. He's actually been assigned to us and THEN removed. Does that sound normal to you? Incidentally, last season against Burnley we not nailed by some dreadful decisions and walked off the pitch calling the referee shit and asking what he was even there for. I wont give you a prize for guessing which referee that was. But yeah absolutely no chance any of that could have led to a bias against us.

It genuinely baffles me that people think referees couldnt possibly be biased for or against certain teams. Like genuinely staggers me. You've got Friend, Atkinson, Coote and Marriner off on a lads jolly away from their wives with a load of young asian girls. But they couldnt possibly be unscrupulous in their jobs. You've seen the fucking ego Mike Dean clearly has with his nonsense all the time, but there's absolutely no chance he could let that ego slip into his job. Its all definitely just bad refereeing.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2021, 02:33:17 pm »
it started getting worse after the burnley game last season when robbo and trent went after coote at the final whistle when he hadnt given us a blatent penalty.

it has since got worse since the first derby game

it is now ridiculous

some where on here someone has put a table showing that we have touched the ball the most this season ( 22,000 touches ) but are 19th in fouls given against us
that just doesnt stackup

and its made worse by the mancs getting a penalty every other game and the opposition getting a foul every time they fall over

Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2021, 03:06:54 pm »

There are many, many different sites and accounts all with their own 'VAR' table, all showing Liverpool stone last in terms of how its impacted us this season. You watched the derby I assume? Both of them? So you think the decisions going against us there were just 'bad refereeing'. You dont think there's a slight possibility that David Coote felt some sort of animosity towards us and let that impact the decisions he made? Because when Pickford put our best player out for the season, he went unpunished. PGMOL and the PL changed their story twice on the day about why that happened. David Coote has not officiated us since. He's actually been assigned to us and THEN removed. Does that sound normal to you? Incidentally, last season against Burnley we not nailed by some dreadful decisions and walked off the pitch calling the referee shit and asking what he was even there for. I wont give you a prize for guessing which referee that was. But yeah absolutely no chance any of that could have led to a bias against us.

It genuinely baffles me that people think referees couldnt possibly be biased for or against certain teams. Like genuinely staggers me. You've got Friend, Atkinson, Coote and Marriner off on a lads jolly away from their wives with a load of young asian girls. But they couldnt possibly be unscrupulous in their jobs. You've seen the fucking ego Mike Dean clearly has with his nonsense all the time, but there's absolutely no chance he could let that ego slip into his job. Its all definitely just bad refereeing.

It just bores the fuck out of me now trying to debate this with people and repeatedly banging my head against the wall, so well done everyone for having the energy and these last paragraphs nail a lot of it.

If people want to believe it is more logical that it is all down to bad refereeing and a giant coincidence that has not levelled itself out, us being rock bottom of VAR tables, against all the many other stats, rather than everything that happened with Coote being shown up and his mates then simply decided to say fuck you, then their logic is flawed and there is no point debating.

Other than pundit type bullshit of 'that's ridiculous they are professionals - it's all bitter nonsense - every club says the same - oh but whataboutery' I would rather hear some actual valid reasons for why this giant cosmic coincidence since the derby is possible.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2021, 03:08:28 pm »
Oh and if you've got a spare couple of hours go and have a watch of the game when Arsenal lost their unbeaten run, then come back and laugh off the idea of referees being biased for/against certain teams.

At least the referee that day is no longer active though........
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2021, 03:10:16 pm »
it started getting worse after the burnley game last season when robbo and trent went after coote at the final whistle when he hadnt given us a blatent penalty.

it has since got worse since the first derby game

it is now ridiculous

some where on here someone has put a table showing that we have touched the ball the most this season ( 22,000 touches ) but are 19th in fouls given against us
that just doesnt stackup

and its made worse by the mancs getting a penalty every other game and the opposition getting a foul every time they fall over
Statistically speaking, the team in each league with the most final third pressures, final third touches and final third take ons always win the most fouls. This is the case in Germany, Italy, France, Spain and all of the top 10 European Leagues. There's one exception for both team and league - care to guess?
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2021, 03:30:08 pm »
Maybe the referees have been duped by the ridiculous ‘LiVARpool’ nonsense fans of other clubs pushed last season.
We have been treated shockingly bad by refs all season. I can accept the odd bad decision , as long as it’s subjective. I can’t accept what’s happened this season tho, even apart from the horror show of the Goodison derby. The double standards just proves it. The Trent ‘foul’ on Lewin is given yet the Mane one in the Newcastle game is not. The handball against Southampton not given yet the same offence given as penalty in other games. The Welbeck theatrics given as a pen for Brighton , yet we’ve had players tripped / pulled back and given nothing.
For the first time in my decades watching football, even through the Souness and Hodgson years, I am actually thinking I just can’t be arsed with it anymore, and it’s all down to the refereeing and VAR.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2021, 03:32:09 pm »
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2021, 03:32:32 pm »
Statistically speaking, the team in each league with the most final third pressures, final third touches and final third take ons always win the most fouls. This is the case in Germany, Italy, France, Spain and all of the top 10 European Leagues. There's one exception for both team and league - care to guess?

I believe you - but where does one find stats like that?
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Offline rob1966

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2021, 03:32:51 pm »
Oh and if you've got a spare couple of hours go and have a watch of the game when Arsenal lost their unbeaten run, then come back and laugh off the idea of referees being biased for/against certain teams.

At least the referee that day is no longer active though........

Yeah, imagine if he got given the job of heading up the PGMOL.............
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2021, 03:40:11 pm »
Maybe the referees have been duped by the ridiculous ‘LiVARpool’ nonsense fans of other clubs pushed last season.
We have been treated shockingly bad by refs all season. I can accept the odd bad decision , as long as it’s subjective. I can’t accept what’s happened this season tho, even apart from the horror show of the Goodison derby. The double standards just proves it. The Trent ‘foul’ on Lewin is given yet the Mane one in the Newcastle game is not. The handball against Southampton not given yet the same offence given as penalty in other games. The Welbeck theatrics given as a pen for Brighton , yet we’ve had players tripped / pulled back and given nothing.
For the first time in my decades watching football, even through the Souness and Hodgson years, I am actually thinking I just can’t be arsed with it anymore, and it’s all down to the refereeing and VAR.

Yep. We all get stinkers going against us sometimes. Buts it’s the fact they all seem to go against us. So pundits can sit there quoting the rules and saying Trent actually fouled Calvert-Lewis and even should have been sent off. I find that bullocks but if that’s the rule so be it. But then as said, why did we not get a penalty for a more obvious example of that type of ‘foul’ from Mané?

Why was Henderson’s goal disallowed at Everton but Leicester’s allowed to stand against us?

Loads more examples of the same kind of decision going against us every time.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2021, 04:37:45 pm »
I believe you - but where does one find stats like that?
I've got the original stats off WhyScout (I didn't compile them - though all are available on WhyScout) but it's a subscription site for all videos and stats. Most can be sourced and cobbled together from Statsbomb and FootChart.

If you use FootCharts though (http://www.footstats.co.uk/index.cfm?task=league_fouls) - you can see only Sheffield Utd get less fouls given to them than we do. We receive 9.08 fouls awarded per 90 (Sheffield Utd are 20th to our 19th, with an astonishing 8.12 and Aston Villa are apparently the most fouled team - 15.78) despite having the ball in the final third more than anyone in the entire division.

City's final third possession and passes are lower than ours, showing they are more efficient in that area but also spend a lot less time there than ourselves, which draws the natural conclusion that they will get fouled less. Only ourselves and City have completed more than 17,000 passes this season - no one else is within 3,000 of this total - and we have done more in the defensive third and the final third, City substantially more in the centre of the pitch. We also have more possession and more time on the ball than any side other than City (the only two sides with an average above 60%). All of this is available in WhoScored's Action Zones area for 20/21 Premier League - no side in the entire division has the ball in the final third as much as we do and only two have it in the middle third less than us (Leeds and Sheffield Utd). We also have the ball in our own third less than any other team (except City).

Correlation doesn't always infer the causality of the production of statistical numbers, but in football, in every top European league, final third possession and take ons (in which we lead the stats for the Premier League per Statsbomb) are the key correlators with fouls awarded. Except... not in the Premier League, not in the final third and not for us. Indeed, you look at the same model that is consistently proven to be correct across pretty much all leagues, and the outlier, the only exception, is Liverpool in 20/21.

Chelsea are the next least fouled team, but they have the ball in the final third a massive 5% less of the game than we do. Everton, Tottenham, Newcastle and West Bromwish Albion have all been given more fouls near the opposition's penalty area than we have, despite the fact that they all literally spend 10% less time with the ball there and have, on average, completed over 2,500 passes less in that area than we have.     
 
The same stats assign an 'error' rating to the decisions given in the league, based upon review after the final whistle. Only two teams in the division have more than 1.33 'key' refereeing errors against them per 90 (meaning a decision that then lead to a key incident - goal, penalty, free kick, sending off etc). That's us, with 2.12 Key officiating errors against us per 90 (Poor Sheffield Utd cropping up again with a whopping 2.75 key errors per 90). It's also worth noting here that the likes of Tottenham and Aston Villa have 2.5 per 90 in their favour - Villa have a crazy 4.71 which just seems wild.

Mike Dean, Anthony Taylor and Jonathan Moss have the least Fouls Per Game in our favour across this season from all refs. They've reffed us 7 times. The 'most favourable' refs to us have been Stuart Atwell and Chris Kavanagh, but they've only been given our games a combined 3 times. Mike Dean also awards 1 Penalty per 90 against us this season.

As for direct VAR intervention, as of 07/02, we had a -6 score, which is 6 incidents leading to or erasing goals that have been deemed to be incorrect after the final whistle (this doesn't include the penalty given to Welbeck or the Salah Brighton goal - both deemed correct after the 90). This isn't favourable decisions or lack of decisions, this is purely VAR interventions deemed incorrect. Including Mane's winner in the Derby.

I don't even know where I'm going or what I'm pointing out now to be honest. It's all just interesting and borne out by easily accessible numbers that we do not have the same treatment applied to us as any other side in the division, or even across Europe for that matter. If anyone was interested, in the Champions League, we are fouled equitably (within 10% of) with Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atleti, Bayern, Ajax - funnily enough sides who match our possession statistics. Who'd have thought?
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Offline Brain Potter

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2021, 05:52:07 pm »
Oh and if you've got a spare couple of hours go and have a watch of the game when Arsenal lost their unbeaten run, then come back and laugh off the idea of referees being biased for/against certain teams.

At least the referee that day is no longer active though........

It’s quite appalling that and well worth 10 minutes of your time watching Mike Riley in action.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2021, 05:56:22 pm »
I've got the original stats off WhyScout (I didn't compile them - though all are available on WhyScout) but it's a subscription site for all videos and stats. Most can be sourced and cobbled together from Statsbomb and FootChart.

If you use FootCharts though (http://www.footstats.co.uk/index.cfm?task=league_fouls) - you can see only Sheffield Utd get less fouls given to them than we do. We receive 9.08 fouls awarded per 90 (Sheffield Utd are 20th to our 19th, with an astonishing 8.12 and Aston Villa are apparently the most fouled team - 15.78) despite having the ball in the final third more than anyone in the entire division.

City's final third possession and passes are lower than ours, showing they are more efficient in that area but also spend a lot less time there than ourselves, which draws the natural conclusion that they will get fouled less. Only ourselves and City have completed more than 17,000 passes this season - no one else is within 3,000 of this total - and we have done more in the defensive third and the final third, City substantially more in the centre of the pitch. We also have more possession and more time on the ball than any side other than City (the only two sides with an average above 60%). All of this is available in WhoScored's Action Zones area for 20/21 Premier League - no side in the entire division has the ball in the final third as much as we do and only two have it in the middle third less than us (Leeds and Sheffield Utd). We also have the ball in our own third less than any other team (except City).

Correlation doesn't always infer the causality of the production of statistical numbers, but in football, in every top European league, final third possession and take ons (in which we lead the stats for the Premier League per Statsbomb) are the key correlators with fouls awarded. Except... not in the Premier League, not in the final third and not for us. Indeed, you look at the same model that is consistently proven to be correct across pretty much all leagues, and the outlier, the only exception, is Liverpool in 20/21.

Chelsea are the next least fouled team, but they have the ball in the final third a massive 5% less of the game than we do. Everton, Tottenham, Newcastle and West Bromwish Albion have all been given more fouls near the opposition's penalty area than we have, despite the fact that they all literally spend 10% less time with the ball there and have, on average, completed over 2,500 passes less in that area than we have.     
 
The same stats assign an 'error' rating to the decisions given in the league, based upon review after the final whistle. Only two teams in the division have more than 1.33 'key' refereeing errors against them per 90 (meaning a decision that then lead to a key incident - goal, penalty, free kick, sending off etc). That's us, with 2.12 Key officiating errors against us per 90 (Poor Sheffield Utd cropping up again with a whopping 2.75 key errors per 90). It's also worth noting here that the likes of Tottenham and Aston Villa have 2.5 per 90 in their favour - Villa have a crazy 4.71 which just seems wild.

Mike Dean, Anthony Taylor and Jonathan Moss have the least Fouls Per Game in our favour across this season from all refs. They've reffed us 7 times. The 'most favourable' refs to us have been Stuart Atwell and Chris Kavanagh, but they've only been given our games a combined 3 times. Mike Dean also awards 1 Penalty per 90 against us this season.

As for direct VAR intervention, as of 07/02, we had a -6 score, which is 6 incidents leading to or erasing goals that have been deemed to be incorrect after the final whistle (this doesn't include the penalty given to Welbeck or the Salah Brighton goal - both deemed correct after the 90). This isn't favourable decisions or lack of decisions, this is purely VAR interventions deemed incorrect. Including Mane's winner in the Derby.

I don't even know where I'm going or what I'm pointing out now to be honest. It's all just interesting and borne out by easily accessible numbers that we do not have the same treatment applied to us as any other side in the division, or even across Europe for that matter. If anyone was interested, in the Champions League, we are fouled equitably (within 10% of) with Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atleti, Bayern, Ajax - funnily enough sides who match our possession statistics. Who'd have thought?
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2021, 06:37:41 pm »
I am generally avoiding to post on the matter, since some people are dismissing it as some sort of a conspiracy bullshit. I will only say that at the turn of the century I loved watching the Serie A, since some of the best players in the World were playing there. Then, some weird things started to happen with the refereeing. Some fans started talking about corruption and certain clubs being helped by the referees, but most fans were dismissing this talk as conspiracy bullshit, and blamed everything on the incompetence of certain referees. Then, Calciopoli happened ...

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2021, 07:00:50 pm »
It's the Coote thing, nothing else. Call me naive, but I don't believe for a second that there was any grand design to damage us or to make our title defence more difficult. It's just that when we rightfully made a show of one of those inept, biased twats they decided to make us pay for it. They have each other's back first and foremost, fairness be damned. I've been a ref at youth and regional leagues level in Italy from age 16 to about 25 and it's always been astonishing to me how defensive and outright vindictive most referees are at all levels of competition when questioned or, God forbid, made a show of for their mistakes. The siege mentality, the "I'm alone against those 22 bastards and those other twats on the bench" vitriol is instilled from a very young age by most of the old farts ex-refs that are supposed to be your mentors and show you the ropes and that insular, defensive mentality informs all decisions and attitudes.
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2021, 07:41:22 pm »
It's the Coote thing, nothing else. Call me naive, but I don't believe for a second that there was any grand design to damage us or to make our title defence more difficult. It's just that when we rightfully made a show of one of those inept, biased twats they decided to make us pay for it. They have each other's back first and foremost, fairness be damned. I've been a ref at youth and regional leagues level in Italy from age 16 to about 25 and it's always been astonishing to me how defensive and outright vindictive most referees are at all levels of competition when questioned or, God forbid, made a show of for their mistakes. The siege mentality, the "I'm alone against those 22 bastards and those other twats on the bench" vitriol is instilled from a very young age by most of the old farts ex-refs that are supposed to be your mentors and show you the ropes and that insular, defensive mentality informs all decisions and attitudes.

definately the coote thing - we had a go last year after the burnley game  and then this year after the derby - seeing those pictures of the refs off on holiday together has shown that they are good mates .
good mates look after each other and have obviously decided to teach us  a lesson

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2021, 07:47:13 pm »
I’m not sure that’s the case, but even if it was, they would be going waaayy beyond their remit.

Their role is to referee games according to the laws without agenda or bias and if they can’t do that then they shouldn’t be in the role.


Offline rob1966

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2021, 07:53:01 pm »
I’m not sure that’s the case, but even if it was, they would be going waaayy beyond their remit.

Their role is to referee games according to the laws without agenda or bias and if they can’t do that then they shouldn’t be in the role.



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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2021, 07:59:15 pm »
;D

I remember Ryan Babel tweeting that after Kenny's first game back as manager, when Berbatov dived in the first minute to win a penalty.

He got fined for it.
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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2021, 08:35:32 pm »
;D

I remember Ryan Babel tweeting that after Kenny's first game back as manager, when Berbatov dived in the first minute to win a penalty.

He got fined for it.

Ridiculous dive early on after Agger stood near him. Nobody commented on it, just like it was the most normal thing in the world.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2021, 09:20:00 pm »
;D

I remember Ryan Babel tweeting that after Kenny's first game back as manager, when Berbatov dived in the first minute to win a penalty.

He got fined for it.

Remember Webb’s performance in the game at Stamford Bridge the year we came 2nd under Rodgers?  Knee high lunge by Eto’o in the first few minutes. Free kick, no card.  Suarez blatantly taken out off the ball in the penalty area trying to press, nothing. Webb even pointed at the incident and then waved play on.

Fucked us in the FA cup that season too. 2-0 down at the Emirates, gave us a penalty with 20 minutes to go. Blatant penalty a couple minutes later, waved play on as he couldn’t give us another one so soon after the first.

The warning signs were there but for some reason he was allowed to go on and fuck up a World Cup final.

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2021, 09:26:41 pm »
Just read that ex ref Mark Clattenburg thinks Trent should’ve been sent off , by the letter of the law, for bringing down Lewin. He said _Lewin had an open goal so Trent lifted his head up to initiate contact!!! So Trent wasn’t knee’d in the back of the head, he actually raised his head to initiate contact! 😂😂😂😂 Inother words he used his head to trip up the attacker! 😂😂😂 . What the fuck have we done to these people that officiate our game?

Getting into it was Antifa that stormed the capitol territory there.

This is what a once great sport has become. People letting their prejudices say black is white and tell you that what you saw with your own eyes is not actually what happened.

I know its hard to believe but once upon a time, football was a great sport. Before all seater stadiums, before sky and before second rate footballers got a shit load of money for playing and equally ludicrous sums for punditry, it was a fun experience whether you were a match goer or not. Its just shit now in comparison.
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Offline Rush 82

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2021, 09:35:36 pm »
So, how do we move from the above to have an actual influence on changing what has been patently obvious?

Offline rob1966

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2021, 09:42:57 pm »
Remember Webb’s performance in the game at Stamford Bridge the year we came 2nd under Rodgers?  Knee high lunge by Eto’o in the first few minutes. Free kick, no card.  Suarez blatantly taken out off the ball in the penalty area trying to press, nothing. Webb even pointed at the incident and then waved play on.

Fucked us in the FA cup that season too. 2-0 down at the Emirates, gave us a penalty with 20 minutes to go. Blatant penalty a couple minutes later, waved play on as he couldn’t give us another one so soon after the first.

The warning signs were there but for some reason he was allowed to go on and fuck up a World Cup final.

08/09 Utd 2-0 down at OT to Spurs and getting battered. Gives them a penalty that he has admitted he knew within seconds he shouldn't have given and a couple of other dodgy decisions, Mancs won 5-2 in the end.
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Offline kezzy

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2021, 09:47:45 pm »
Just nailed a few cliches at once there. Kudos.

1. Yeah they probably do. Thats because fans generally like to think their team is 'up against it' because it makes it easier to excuse if they dont win. Just because 'every teams fans think the same way' doesnt suddenly mean that it couldnt possibly be true for any club.

2. Ok right but with 'bad referees' you surely get some sort of evening out. Except we dont, do we? What we see are certain clubs getting a lot of decisions for them that they shouldnt get, and a few clubs (or club) getting a lot of decisions go against them that shouldnt.

Not meant to you personally, or any specific poster of course, but if you think we're being officiated to the same standard as everyone else this season then you're a fucking idiot.

There are enough stats, purely numbers, out there to show that its highly unlikely we're being refereed fairly. Thats taking any sort of bias out of it. The amount of touches we have vs the amount of fouls against. The touches in the area compared to the amount of penalties. The amount some of our players are fouled compared to other players.

Just as an example, Ashley Barnes has been fouled 3.3 times per 90 minutes this season. In comparison, Mo Salah has been foiled 0.8 times per 90 minutes. Does that sound right to you? I'm sure you watch Liverpool games. You think Ashley Barnes is fouled 4 times more often than Mo Salah? Ahh no right, just bad refereeing. From all of the referees. Against the same two players. Gotcha.

There are many, many different sites and accounts all with their own 'VAR' table, all showing Liverpool stone last in terms of how its impacted us this season. You watched the derby I assume? Both of them? So you think the decisions going against us there were just 'bad refereeing'. You dont think there's a slight possibility that David Coote felt some sort of animosity towards us and let that impact the decisions he made? Because when Pickford put our best player out for the season, he went unpunished. PGMOL and the PL changed their story twice on the day about why that happened. David Coote has not officiated us since. He's actually been assigned to us and THEN removed. Does that sound normal to you? Incidentally, last season against Burnley we not nailed by some dreadful decisions and walked off the pitch calling the referee shit and asking what he was even there for. I wont give you a prize for guessing which referee that was. But yeah absolutely no chance any of that could have led to a bias against us.

It genuinely baffles me that people think referees couldnt possibly be biased for or against certain teams. Like genuinely staggers me. You've got Friend, Atkinson, Coote and Marriner off on a lads jolly away from their wives with a load of young asian girls. But they couldnt possibly be unscrupulous in their jobs. You've seen the fucking ego Mike Dean clearly has with his nonsense all the time, but there's absolutely no chance he could let that ego slip into his job. Its all definitely just bad refereeing.


Great post, I couldn’t agree more.  And how many manc refs are there and we keep getting them.  And we keep getting told they all support teams like Altrincham and Bury.  I know quite a few mancs and every one of them supports United or City.  Don’t know any mancs that support Altrincham or Bury. 

Offline b_joseph

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Re: What do you think we've done to turn ALL of the refs against us like this?
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2021, 09:48:14 pm »
Insulted their mothers while in school...refs have a spiteful long range memory.

In all seriousness. Every other fanbase thought the refs were in our pocket last season...it was a silly opinion then, just as an bias against us is a silly opinion now ( not that anyone will accept that. Not in sport or politics. )

Refereeing is a tough job that even the best of them will make errors. We dont have good officials in this country and as a consequence, bad decision making from them.
But every team will show you a laundry list of refereeing injustices against them...yes, even United.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 09:51:52 pm by b_joseph »