Author Topic: Cambridge Analytica  (Read 32795 times)

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2018, 12:05:55 am »
What's the difference between that and advertising? I don't mean to snipe but this just seems like a modern version of what certain types of media have always done. 19th century pamphlets didn't include the other side's version.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2018, 12:13:46 am »
I work in a related field and I honestly think a lot of people don't realize just how big a story this is. To my mind this is one of the biggest news stories of the last 30 years.

think it was always obvious something big would come from Facebook, after all you voluntarily give them a shitload of data on your likes and dislikes that marketers could only dream of but I always thought the big line crossing would be more from someone like amazon than political based companies

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2018, 12:14:18 am »
What's the difference between that and advertising? I don't mean to snipe but this just seems like a modern version of what certain types of media have always done. 19th century pamphlets didn't include the other side's version.
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Offline ghost1359

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2018, 12:25:10 am »
What's the difference between that and advertising? I don't mean to snipe but this just seems like a modern version of what certain types of media have always done. 19th century pamphlets didn't include the other side's version.

Advertising agencies don't have access to the depth of information they took. Also it doesn't have the scope of what CA did, if you're trying to sell one particular brand of shampoo the only website you have to go off really is that particular brand's website or anywhere it's available. Sure you can utilize reviews on instagram, youtube etc you can bump your product using SEO or SEM but you can't box someone in in the same way they have. At the end of the day how likely are you to talk about shampoo unless you're a hairdresser or shampoo enthusiast? Targeted advertising like that isn't going shape your online experience, you're not going to see L'oreal in your twitter recommendations because you've clicked on a Facebook ad once.

It's entirely different in a political context. Facebook for example shapes your newsfeed based on the content and friends you interact with most regularly, so if you're spammed with adverts for anti immigrant parties lets say and you're seeing autoplay ads decrying that there are too many immigrants and they're taking your job etc that will be reinforcing a sentiment that perhaps you've already shared. Keep in mind that they built psych profiles on people and categorized them as to who would be most susceptible to what messaging, so they were targeting the people most likely to respond to that particular message.

It's just a little push, but that push is significant because if it causes you to then comment on media related to that topic, or share it, or like it that can really radically change your online experience. It's a snowball effect. This campaign started with Facebook data but it was used to tailor entire online experiences, it wasn't restricted to Facebook.
 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 12:27:22 am by ghost1359 »
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Offline ghost1359

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2018, 12:29:39 am »
think it was always obvious something big would come from Facebook, after all you voluntarily give them a shitload of data on your likes and dislikes that marketers could only dream of but I always thought the big line crossing would be more from someone like amazon than political based companies

Marketing and advertising is heavily regulated though and in terms of real world damage, aside from capitalism being a plague on this planet and it's inhabitants, there's only a limited amount of damage it can do.

When you start fucking with people's heads by drowning out facts with a cascade of knowingly false information that's a whole different ball game.
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Offline Not that Gareth

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2018, 12:30:01 am »
What's the difference between that and advertising? I don't mean to snipe but this just seems like a modern version of what certain types of media have always done. 19th century pamphlets didn't include the other side's version.
Would you let someone trail you around noting all the shops you visit, all the stuff you buy, all the things you say, noting all your acquaintances? This is what they are doing online, companies can build deep psychological profiles of people and target them very specifically with the specific aim of triggering personal emotional responses. It is not the advertising of old, it is far more insidious and invasive.

Offline ghost1359

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2018, 12:33:50 am »
Would you let someone trail you around noting all the shops you visit, all the stuff you buy, all the things you say, noting all your acquaintances? This is what they are doing online, companies can build deep psychological profiles of people and target them very specifically with the specific aim of triggering personal emotional responses. It is not the advertising of old, it is far more insidious and invasive.

I was told that, excitedly, by a former Google employee 10 years ago and they were stunned that I was appalled. Google, despite doing a lot of great stuff, have an absolutely terrifying vision of the future and unfortunately I think we're far, far too far down the road to even think about stopping it.
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Offline Not that Gareth

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2018, 12:36:06 am »
This is not just a CA thing, this is rampant. I would encourage everyone to use Firefox and then enable something like lightbeam so you can see just how heavily you are tracked.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2018, 12:38:21 am »
I was told that, excitedly, by a former Google employee 10 years ago and they were stunned that I was appalled. Google, despite doing a lot of great stuff, have an absolutely terrifying vision of the future and unfortunately I think we're far, far too far down the road to even think about stopping it.
There's alot of work being done in the privacy and I'm still hopeful we'll figure this out. The web is transformative but we are like kids in a candy shop right now.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2018, 12:41:32 am »
I was told that, excitedly, by a former Google employee 10 years ago and they were stunned that I was appalled. Google, despite doing a lot of great stuff, have an absolutely terrifying vision of the future and unfortunately I think we're far, far too far down the road to even think about stopping it.
see I don’t see anything wrong with using your shopping habits to tailor retargeting ads for similar/new products that may interest you, one thing that did creep me out was the gmail ads thing, remember about 5 years ago in a meeting with google asking them if they’d risk pissing people off as they’d think google is scraping their mail but they didn’t see the issue

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2018, 12:43:50 am »
There's alot of work being done in the privacy and I'm still hopeful we'll figure this out. The web is transformative but we are like kids in a candy shop right now.
problem is the tech companies can run rings round the legislators as let’s be blunt if you understand it you’d make far more money working the system than trying to fix it

Offline ghost1359

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2018, 12:53:07 am »
see I don’t see anything wrong with using your shopping habits to tailor retargeting ads for similar/new products that may interest you, one thing that did creep me out was the gmail ads thing, remember about 5 years ago in a meeting with google asking them if they’d risk pissing people off as they’d think google is scraping their mail but they didn’t see the issue

Ads I've no issue with but Google want to take it a lot further and they're not the only ones.

The vision I was sold, and keep in mind this was 10 years ago, was that we would eventually have some kind of device either implanted or something similar to google glass that would basically be abreast of everything we do. What we like to eat, where we like to shop, where we spend our time, our favourite coffee shop, the friends we socialise with most regularly etc etc Now, again, keep in mind that everything I've just listed is information that is stored on you currently and is collated by your mobile phone unless you're incredibly tech savvy. Most smart phones will have recorded all of that.

So, the scenario was that you would be walking down the street and that you might get a notification saying that 6 weeks ago you were searching for Skate parks in x city and that in 600 metres there is a skateboard shop. You may continue down the street and receive another notification telling you that a friend is currently 1km away shopping in x store, would you like to arrange a meeting? This goes on in ways I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on.

There are some people who view that as not necessarily being a bad thing and as such some of that technology has been integrated into popular apps, if in a watered down form. Nearby Friends on Facebook as an example.

Where it becomes a problem is that it leaves very little room for growth. Most people are not even close to the same person they were at 20 when they're 30. How would that personal growth be affected if you were consistently nudged to keep the same interests? Spend time with the same people?

Look at curated Spotify playlists....they're incredibly popular and for good reason, they're great, but those playlists only work off music you have previously played so you are constantly nudged down the same musical path. If you like hip hop and you listen mostly to hip hop, your playlist is going to be hip hop. In a world where your every interest is catered for an nurtured, how do you ever discover new ones?
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Offline ghost1359

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2018, 12:57:40 am »
problem is the tech companies can run rings round the legislators as let’s be blunt if you understand it you’d make far more money working the system than trying to fix it

GDPR will change a lot in the UK, also there is increasing pressure and there has been for a number of years now to totally revamp Ts and Cs which would go a long, long way to enlightening people as to exactly how their data is being used and more importantly why that matters.

I have spoken to friends of mine who are involved in digital industries and all of them understand acutely why this story is so big and are totally engrossed in it. I've spoken to other friends who frankly just don't care, to them this is an absolutely nothing story, just have absolutely no interest in it at all and honestly I'm not surprised.

That's the problem, a lot of people are shrugging at this and saying so what because they have no idea what is and isn't normal and what should or shouldn't be acceptable because this practice has been made purposely murky for a long time.
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2018, 01:10:17 am »
I work in a related field and I honestly think a lot of people don't realize just how big a story this is. To my mind this is one of the biggest news stories of the last 30 years.



I agree.

Yet there are some simple stories that can be taken from the big picture that are important to focus on, dealing with the motives of those who have utilised/funded CA.

We have billionaire Robert Mercer who bankrolled first Cruz's campaign then, when Trump won the Repugnican nomination, switched allegiances to bankroll the use of CA to help get Trump elected. When Trump wins, he ploughs through massive tax cuts for billionaires like Mercer. The buying of the democratic process for personal gain. Nothing new, but important not to lose sight of it.

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Offline ghost1359

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2018, 01:16:37 am »
Mercer

Not to mention he's also been accused time and time again of money laundering for the Russians, CA are on the record as having met with Lukoil as well as hiring Kogan who himself is quite the character;

"Kogan is also an associate professor at the St Petersburg University – a fact his Cambridge colleagues, aside from the head of the Department of Psychology, were not told, according to The Guardian/Observer. In this position, he received funding from the Russian government to study ‘Stress, health and psychological wellbeing in social networks’. In a CV from 2014, which was previously available on the University’s website, Kogan made no mention of his connection to St Petersburg, or to having received any grants."

https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/15192
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2018, 01:19:20 am »
Having spoke about Facebook's ability to dish targeted advertisements in a thread about how they can harvest and pass-on data (only to be told by certain sections that I and others were tin-hatters), I'm not surprised by this at all.

Linking this to that is neither here nor there, but the method of action seems similar in some respects. Whilst drawing 'hotwords' from conversations does not link over this to this by any means - the motivations and gains by big businesses should exemplify motivations for Facebook to sell data to third-parties.

The crux of it is, for me, that whilst Facebook is free - they (and companies) will use personal data for their own gain. This has been going on for years and this looks, to me, to be the natural progression of doorstep politics; only, they don't have to pay people anymore, they can do it from a mobile app.

I'm sure it is all very technical and that no-one would fully understand it's nuts and bolts - however, in simple terms, it looks to be a bit of a viral program that you see pop up nowadays. I remember similar personality tests and essentially, it would pop-up in your feed what personality your friend was (there were IQ tests and whatnot too), and when you clicked on it (to see yours), it would try to link your profile to an app (like Words with Friends) that would then ask you to accept its terms. Now, this company have been caught - but I would suggest that there are oodles of companies like this behind a lot of these tests - all competing to get your data and sell it on.

But one of the more interesting things is this:

Quote
The academic had developed a Facebook app which featured a personality quiz, and Cambridge Analytica paid for people to take it, advertising on platforms such as Amazon’s Mechanical Turk.

The app recorded the results of each quiz, collected data from the taker’s Facebook account – and, crucially, extracted the data of their Facebook friends as well.

To my mind, that is paid stooging. So, x amount of people are paid to take the test, share their data and get their friends to take it (unpaid, I assume). The ones who don't are then compared to the ones that do (using likes and similar trends to 'guesstimate' their friends' responses. This then creates a basis for a paid viral campaign that can be used to pigeon-hole and loop groups of people together - (with their location, age, gender etc...).

I would think that this test is just the tip of the iceberg - if this 'test' works, then can you imagine what could be done when the method is applied to other, more serious means? Coud it be the basis for democratic voting? Could... could... (I say this with a big could), could a company take people's personality traits, likes and personal data, and possibly guess which candidate they may vote for? In the western world, that may be impossible, but think of a country with low GDP, little or no media infrastructure and no platform on the world stage.

Look at Brexit, for example - do people remember the absolute vitriol spouted by 'groups' and friends to warrant a leave vote? If a company could find out who were 'easy voters' and people who 'followed the crowd' or what conspiracists theorise as being 'sheeple' (people who believe what they are told by a higher power) - they could begin to target or connect people using adverts for Facebook groups or pages - social engineering. Nothing too different to what politicians do on political rallies or 'polling' (when you used to see scores of people on phones polling people with political questions).

If you could identify individuals or specific groups and begin to link them together using social media - that's a pretty big army of support that could, could be used to drive a specific agenda - for example, gun control. With a few well-placed moles here and there, and big personalities to organise, you have yourself a body of potential voters who can influence and do half of your work for you... virally.

All that is blue sky thinking and between the lines pop-science, but nothing would surprise me. Facebook is one of the most powerful forces we have ever seen - a network of thoughts and emotions interlinked by a giant blue elephant - it is a ruling classes dream. We once thought that Facebook was the last democratic bastion that allowed people to rise above the shit and connect with others on a personal level. Stories like this are showing how Facebook can be used by higher powers to potentially influence important world events.

I remember all the pressure from Facebook friends (and I have quite a lot) to vote - there was even a drop-down on Facebook to let 'your friends' know that you had voted. Most of them were left-leaning, and when it came to Brexit, they made their opinions clear - around that time, 'everyone' seemed to be voting to stay (or at least in my circles). When I say everyone, everyone that Facebook wanted me to see first.

And this, I feel, comes to the crux of the power of Facebook. After implementing (drip feeding) new features, around three to four years ago, people started to lose their ability to see what they wanted to see first. Being first when you open Facebook is the most important thing a company can have. The implementation of 'Top Stories' changed things hugely in this department, most people don't know that you can change from 'Top Stories' to 'Most Recent', which is a massive thing. It essentially hands over power from you, to Facebook to feed you what is 'hot news' in your networks.

Over the past few years, I have noticed that people are becoming more and more critical and political over what they like and what they share. One time, you could post up a picture of yourself posing with a turd and get likes - it was fun. But now, with page upon page, and group upon group, there is faaaaar more to see and share - and you, as a sole sharer, have to compete with videos of dogs farting, kids singing, X-factor, and low-cut tit shots gilded with Snapchat filters.

This will not damage Facebook at all - the application has its worshippers and they follow it like a religion. 6-8% off their market worth? Small change... They'll make that up in a month with a new feature! It will be the average user and start-up who will face the backlash as Facebook rally and change their privacy terms.

This won't be the end of something, this will be the start of something and as conspiracy nut as it sounds, it will end up opening the question of digital voting again. All this technical mumbo jumbo will instigate debate, and the end-game will be to get people to give over more of their personal data (to confirm real-life identity) so that Facebook will be used as the primary source for census data, political voting, polling and yes, viewing and shopping habits.

Few things if you already haven't:

Check your installed apps:

https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=applications

I personally uninstalled all 113 apps that had access to my personal data - I will only add what I need.

Also - if you scroll down to the bottom there is a section that throws up this window:

Quote
People on Facebook who can see your info can bring it with them when they use apps. This makes their experience better and more social. Use the settings below to control the categories of information that people can bring with them when they use apps, games and websites.
Bio
Posts on my timeline
Birthday
Hometown
Family and relationships
Current city
Interested in
Education and work
Religious and political views
Activities, interests, things I like
My website
My app activity
If I'm online
If you don't want apps and websites to access other categories of information (like your friend list, gender or info you've made public), you can turn off all Platform apps. But remember, you will not be able to use any games or apps yourself.

Not sure what it means, but unticked it all nonetheless...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 02:34:01 am by Kidder. »
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2018, 04:32:15 am »
There is so many fascinating facets about this story - exploiting Facebook to mine the data, creating their own blackmail, and then using the data to exploit people's "hopes and fears" to win elections.
 
It also explains why pollsters got it so wrong. They were reading the surface and these guys were exploiting the subconscious.

Also it's time to hold the electorate responsible. American pundits have this weird idea that voters can't be blamed for electing a racist moron like Trump.  It's clear race was the decisive factor in the American election, and the  way to stop firms like CA from playing to racist fears is to discuss race. Instead we got scores of articles about "economic anxiety" when all along it was CA just stoking the racial resentment.
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2018, 04:56:50 am »

The difference with these guys is that they were out to actually gin-up the fears of people due to the stolen Facebook profile data and then let the Facebook/twitter algorithms do the rest , feeding these people more of the same and so on and so on.
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Facebook looks bad on so many levels from this. They knew about it and covered it up because they make money selling targeted ads and their algorithms create echo chambers by design that are easily exploited by extremists like the alt-right, ISIS, etc.


CA exploited the targeting and the echo chamber effect to reinforce fears, prejudices, and jealousies for the Trump campaign and Brexit.


The Russians exploited the targeting, the echo chamber, and the ease at which like-minded radicals can find one anther in social media so the Russians could sow division. 



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Offline rodderzzz

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2018, 04:58:19 am »
Race was also the decisive factor in Brexit. That bombshell is still to fully explode.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2018, 06:21:51 am »
One of the major issues between what these guys are doing versus your normal political advertising by Political Parties, Super Pacs, Unions, etc, is that their ads all need to be approved and must state who's opinion they are.

These bastards are throwing up ads doctored to look like news that pop up in peoples Facebook feeds and then just disappear.

Quote
“And so this stuff infiltrates the online community, but with no branding, so it’s unattributable, untrackable.”

It's like invisible propaganda or SnapChat News.
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2018, 07:48:25 am »
Wasn't this an exact storyline on house of cards?


I'm with Corkboy here. Stealing elections through lying cheating and breaking the law is nothing new.

The Russian angle is the story here ( apart from legal issues for the main protagonists).
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2018, 07:56:01 am »
I personally uninstalled all 113 apps that had access to my personal data - I will only add what I need.

And you wonder why you're getting so many personalised ads??!!

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2018, 08:16:47 am »
see I don’t see anything wrong with using your shopping habits to tailor retargeting ads for similar/new products that may interest you, one thing that did creep me out was the gmail ads thing, remember about 5 years ago in a meeting with google asking them if they’d risk pissing people off as they’d think google is scraping their mail but they didn’t see the issue

Its like your mum showing you pictures of new shoes you'd like, the advertisement for the zoo for your next day out, and ripping the page with the ad for the show of your favourite band (who she disapproves off) out of your magazine.

Most of us grow up to make our own choices at some point in our lives.
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2018, 08:24:55 am »
Adding to that, it is not your mum, who just tries to rise you as a decent person and protect you from the world's evils, making these choices for you. It is whoever paid her the most money.
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Offline BlackandWhitePaul

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2018, 08:54:50 am »
I've not used Google in a few years now and honestly think people are mad if they do.

Duck Duck Go is the search engine I use.

Click the link and have a look.

https://duckduckgo.com/

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2018, 09:27:51 am »
I've not used Google in a few years now and honestly think people are mad if they do.

Duck Duck Go is the search engine I use.

Click the link and have a look.

https://duckduckgo.com/
The problem with Duck Duck go is that it's far inferior in every way to Google.

Even a simple query for an "apartment in Dublin", queried in Dublin, returns results for Dublin Ohio.

I've tried Duck Duck many times, I want to use it. But it's a long way off being good enough


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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2018, 09:36:56 am »
That's the problem, a lot of people are shrugging at this and saying so what because they have no idea what is and isn't normal and what should or shouldn't be acceptable because this practice has been made purposely murky for a long time.

Surely a lot of people are shrugging because they're not surprised.  I haven't heard much in this current story that I didn't either know already or presume, and I don't work in a digital industry.  I think a lot of people realise there is no such thing as a free lunch.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2018, 09:39:00 am »
The problem with Duck Duck go is that it's far inferior in every way to Google.

Even a simple query for an "apartment in Dublin", queried in Dublin, returns results for Dublin Ohio.

I've tried Duck Duck many times, I want to use it. But it's a long way off being good enough

Yup. It’s pretty shocking. Have tried countless search engines like that and none of them really provide results even close to the quality Google does.

Offline Not that Gareth

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2018, 09:49:06 am »
I've not used Google in a few years now and honestly think people are mad if they do.

Duck Duck Go is the search engine I use.

Click the link and have a look.

https://duckduckgo.com/
The Brave Browser is another option if you want to continue to use the Google search engine: https://brave.com/faq

Offline 12C

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2018, 10:06:10 am »

And they have fucked that right up by binning Nix,his whole argument was that he was trying to flush out the undercover guy and just being outrageous.

There surely has to be a good case for another referendum.

Apparently Nix is the boss of CA and has suspended himself.
CA is a shell company with no assets apart from data sets(?)

SCL group are the parent company and Nix is still there


Don’t know if this is genuine (apologies in advance) but this guy seems to be linked to the guardian and has looked at the board of SCL

https://twitter.com/liam_o_hare/status/976182257160515584?s=21
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2018, 10:40:51 am »
The other issue here is that not only were the details of the people who downloaded the CA quiz app harvested, but also the data of all their FB friends who had not downloaded the app/agreed to participate. Thus from an initial 270,000 app users, CA were able to accumulate information on 50 million users to help micro-target their ad content to tailor political propaganda ads to their specific fears and dislikes.

Interestingly, according to the Canadian Press, the whistleblower (Wylie) had once suggested such ideas while doing work for the Liberal Party of Canada when Michael Ignatieff was leader. The Liberals thought the idea was too invasive, even though the technology to perform this on a mass scale didn't exist at the time. Thus, Wylie was let go. This was in 2009
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wylie-cambridge-analytica-liberals-1.4583810

Also

Washington Post@washingtonpost
Conservative strategist Stephen K. Bannon oversaw Cambridge Analytica’s collection of Facebook data, according to former employee
http://wapo.st/2FNaalr

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2018, 11:14:56 am »
The other issue here is that not only were the details of the people who downloaded the CA quiz app harvested, but also the data of all their FB friends who had not downloaded the app/agreed to participate. Thus from an initial 270,000 app users, CA were able to accumulate information on 50 million users to help micro-target their ad content to tailor political propaganda ads to their specific fears and dislikes.

Interestingly, according to the Canadian Press, the whistleblower (Wylie) had once suggested such ideas while doing work for the Liberal Party of Canada when Michael Ignatieff was leader. The Liberals thought the idea was too invasive, even though the technology to perform this on a mass scale didn't exist at the time. Thus, Wylie was let go. This was in 2009
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wylie-cambridge-analytica-liberals-1.4583810

Also

Washington Post@washingtonpost
Conservative strategist Stephen K. Bannon oversaw Cambridge Analytica’s collection of Facebook data, according to former employee
http://wapo.st/2FNaalr
Tbf, lots of the tactics used by CA are widely used in digital marketing & silicon valley. The problem here is that CA campaigns are typically much larger, likely more invasive and their net effect is to rip apart the fabric of society for sinister gains.

Tech companies, particularly Facebook are complicit enablers of this pervasive invasion of our society & people like Zuckerberg don't care much for ethics, laws & thousands of years of societal development. People like him think they are above the law and can do anything they like with "their technology" and "our internet".

It's interesting that there have been murmurs of him running as a presidential candidate in recent years. With his ethics aversions and the data / tools at his disposal, it's a frightening proposition.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2018, 11:16:59 am »
What's the difference between that and advertising? I don't mean to snipe but this just seems like a modern version of what certain types of media have always done. 19th century pamphlets didn't include the other side's version.


Im sorta in this camp. Where do you draw the line between criminal and immoral practices.
The PR and Ad companies since the 50s have been researching and targeting consumers through underlying subconscious advertisments. Appealing to ones inner desires and exploting them, getting information from focus groups and such. Its the norm for Political parties to do this since the 80s, and then parties would pander to those selfish desires such as cut benefits for the disadvantaged and such. This was pre internet. This just seems a more technologically advanced variant. Cutting the focus group out and getting data from people instead. Now its a different kettle of fish if they targeting people with fake news to back uo these beliefs...

Interesting discussion, im no way qualified or experienced to discuss this so im gonna enjoy watching from the distance and see how this unfolds.
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Offline OOS

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2018, 11:26:57 am »
I work in a related field and I honestly think a lot of people don't realize just how big a story this is. To my mind this is one of the biggest news stories of the last 30 years.

This feels similar to the Edward Snowden revelations.
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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2018, 11:27:32 am »
With regards to the US elections, it's illegal to have people outside of the USA / non US citizens working on campaigns.
I'm sure there are any hate laws that can be applied too.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2018, 12:16:39 pm »

Im sorta in this camp. Where do you draw the line between criminal and immoral practices.
The PR and Ad companies since the 50s have been researching and targeting consumers through underlying subconscious advertisments. Appealing to ones inner desires and exploting them, getting information from focus groups and such. Its the norm for Political parties to do this since the 80s, and then parties would pander to those selfish desires such as cut benefits for the disadvantaged and such. This was pre internet. This just seems a more technologically advanced variant. Cutting the focus group out and getting data from people instead. Now its a different kettle of fish if they targeting people with fake news to back uo these beliefs...

Interesting discussion, im no way qualified or experienced to discuss this so im gonna enjoy watching from the distance and see how this unfolds.
Was going to say something similar.

Advertising that addresses the unconscious is perfectly legal, if somewhat shady.

The Fifties saw the development of subliminal advertising which was eventually banned.

This use of data harvesting/targeting is much more akin to that subliminal advertising.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2018, 12:38:56 pm »

The Fifties saw the development of subliminal advertising which was eventually banned.

This use of data harvesting/targeting is much more akin to that subliminal advertising.

I think it's much more insidious than that. It's one thing to suggest you should buy a certain brand of toothpaste, it's another to reinforce, change or shape your entire worldview. A subliminal ad for toothpaste primarily benefits its manufacturer; these ads which targeted voters have much broader impacts on the entire socio-political system

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2018, 12:56:50 pm »
I think it's much more insidious than that. It's one thing to suggest you should buy a certain brand of toothpaste, it's another to reinforce, change or shape your entire worldview. A subliminal ad for toothpaste primarily benefits its manufacturer; these ads which targeted voters have much broader impacts on the entire socio-political system

I've got a copy of Vance Packard's Hidden Persuaders in the loft. I may just dig it out.

I agree that advertisers have been using psychology for decades to influence your purchasing habits. A TV ad extolling a particular brand of aftershave is at least overt and there are other brands, with equally sophisticated adverts on the market. And with a reasonably well regulated market place.

The difference with the CA model is that it is deliberately covert, duped the initial consumers by running a fake test and is intended to influence political control, not the male perfume you choose to wear down the pub.

Very sinister.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2018, 12:58:12 pm »
I think it's much more insidious than that. It's one thing to suggest you should buy a certain brand of toothpaste, it's another to reinforce, change or shape your entire worldview. A subliminal ad for toothpaste primarily benefits its manufacturer; these ads which targeted voters have much broader impacts on the entire socio-political system

You're describing propaganda. It's not new.

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Re: Cambridge Analytica
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2018, 01:02:37 pm »
You're describing propaganda. It's not new.

But this is targeted personalised propaganda and targeted through subterfuge.

At least totalitarian propaganda, torch light parades, missiles trundling through Red Square, Julius Streichers stridently anti-Semitic was in your face. Literally.

This propaganda is much more subtle and aimed at people who probably look at cute kittens or babies stumbling through their first steps on Face Book or other platforms for inanity.