Author Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?  (Read 267193 times)

Offline smicer07

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2360 on: January 21, 2011, 12:28:01 am »
This:

And...

This.

Lucas is definitely overrated on this forum. People should be allowed to criticise him. He has done nowhere near enough to earn the near-legendary status that some give him here, and the fact that some people overrate him so much is probably what causes other people to comically underrated him here - to provide some balance.

Lucas is not a world beater. I hope he becomes one, but we just haven't seen it yet.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone on RAWK say they think Lucas is a world beater?

Offline koolkamal

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2361 on: January 21, 2011, 12:29:42 am »

Lucas is not a world beater. I hope he becomes one, but we just haven't seen it yet.

Reason why we haven't seen it just yet is because the whole team has been poor. In order for him to show he's true best the whole team have to be at their best also. He needs to keep working hard and improving. The potential is there.
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Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2362 on: January 21, 2011, 12:31:50 am »
Quote
I don't think I've ever seen anyone on RAWK say they think Lucas is a world beater?

Look back through this thread. I've seen about 5 examples of it, and that's from having only read about 10 of the 60 pages.

Offline Valery_Karpin

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2363 on: January 21, 2011, 12:32:52 am »
That's only because people are trying to explain football in terms others can understand. Try to explain the technical details of what he does, and it goes over their heads, as they don't even understand the concepts behind it. This is my point about language and how it limits understanding. So they try and alternative method instead, which is to point to a wellknown player, and describe how Lucas is that type of player. When they do that, the critics splutter with outrage at how Lucas is being compared with these players when he's not their level. Thus missing the point that Lucas isn't being compared to them in quality, but in role and player type.

I get your point (I know it wasn't directed at me, but I will debate it anyway).

You see, there are some of us that do understand the game, I understand it completely, and, one thing I completely understood and completely shared the vision of was our team of 08/09. Call me a fantasist, a dreamer or deluded, but I seen our team of 08/09 as one of the most complete footballing sides in modern history. Had we had two quality wide players or a truly offensive full back, I do believe we would have won the league and the champions league that year. I felt that side was so strong, it was almost ridiculous how well drilled the players were, how well executed the tactics were and how well-balanced the team had become, from striker to goalkeeper, everything worked in tandem, everybody had their own individual attributes, yet everybody covered somebody's glaring weakness.

However, since then, we haven't tried to replicate what we created in that side. Maybe I'm wrong to cling onto something like that, but I felt the formula to success was there, the foundations were built, the key chemistry was complete, all that was needed was something a little extra in the wider areas, as the players never caused enough problems for the opposition. But, back to the point, when Alonso left, we lost probably the most pivotal aspect to the foundations, but, and this is the key but; we never tried to replace Alonso with a like-for-like. I couldn't understand why we didn't try it, we tried to change those foundations and it ended horribly. Since then we lost another piece to that extremely strong spine, although not the most irreplaceable piece, he was definitely the fuel to the engine.

Now, maybe I'm wrong to hold on to that team, that formation, that structure, that style, that system, maybe I am, but I can't see any other way for us to compete whilst we still have Torres and Gerrard. I think since Xabi has gone, their best form has been well behind them, and we all know why, because Xabi was pivotal to Gerrard being able to play his natural game to its fullest by exploiting Gerrard's free role by always finding him in space with time on the ball, thus resulting in Gerrard having time to pick out Torres, or pick out Benayoun to play in Torres, or Kuyt, or whoever, but the roles linking to each other was glaringly obvious. Anyhow, I still feel that that is the only way we can get the best out of our big two players, whilst they are still here, we have to build around them and make them the stars of our team. In my opinion, Lucas isn't good enough a player to be part of the magic two that regularly sat behind Gerrard. A worthy back up, but not gifted enough to be an untouchable aspect of our spine.

Now I, in my humblest of opinions, don't feel that is a scathing attack on Lucas, I don't feel I've been harsh or even dismissive of him. As I've posted before, I get his strengths and I see everything he does, but what he does will always be viewed in Xabi's and Javier's shadow, as those are the players he's succeeded, and those will be remembered as the last good 'formula' to making us competitive, I feel.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2364 on: January 21, 2011, 12:33:22 am »
I figure it's implied when no one can get away with even questioning his ability on here without being jumped on. Must be wrong though. Not like RAWK to get uber defensive about an individual to the extent it's blinded to any falability they may have :)

Answering a question with a question is exactly why this thread is 60 pages of going nowhere, let's be fair.

When most of the criticism takes the form of long-disproved media myths, as in the example a few posts earlier, it's a pretty clear sign that the critic only understands football in cliched terms. There have been critics whom I've argued with in the past in detail, who clearly understand enough the nuances of football to both listen and speak. They're not the problem. I respect them and their opinion, even if I don't agree with them (just as I respected your opinion that Benitez should go, depite the unappetising choice of replacement, on the grounds that you at least knew what you were talking about, even though I disagreed). It's not what people think of Lucas that shows whether or not they know about football. It's how they think of him. I've questioned his ability on some aspects, and the discussion went into a genial enough thread.
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2365 on: January 21, 2011, 12:37:49 am »
Barely anyone has made him out to be a world beater... and almost everyone has said that he needs to improve. People get so defensive over him because of comments that he's not good enough for the first team. He doesn't need a stand out attribute to make him one of the worlds best. Lucas is sort of a jack of all trades... he does most things well enough. In a team that wants to play pass and move (that is essentially what he does). He's capable of more but the problem is that we've been so bad for so long the only time we'll see more of what he can offer is when the entire team is playing well. He's not a Gerrard who's like a force of nature but he doesn't need to be. He keeps possession really well, keeps the ball moving all, has great positioning and reading of the game.

If he keeps improving at the rate he is by the time he's 25/26 we'll have some player on our hands.

Right well I'll apologise for putting words in peoples mouths with regard them making out he's a world beater (although personally, I still think they are...)

What I will say though, hopefully with a degree of certainty, is that everyone on here wants Liverpool to be the best team in the world. So, for me, long-term you are looking at him being one of the best in the world in his positions, and generally speaking those players do have stand-out attributes. I think asking what his stand-out attribute is is a fair enough question.

I can buy that he's going to develop. I've said the same myself. Last year I compared him to Ballack and Pirlo's situations at the same age (even Xavi's) and I wouldn't necessarily say he's behind either. But again, what's he doing brilliantly. He's good at continuity, which is great. Is that enough for a team that aspires to be best in the world? Well...

I mean, he's obviously nowhere near the weak link on the team. Does that mean he's actually going to be good enough eventually though, if the club progresses in the right direction? That's a different question. One I don't think this forum should be so defensive over, or afraid to ask. If it's done respectfully.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2366 on: January 21, 2011, 12:42:07 am »
I get your point (I know it wasn't directed at me, but I will debate it anyway).

You see, there are some of us that do understand the game, I understand it completely, and, one thing I completely understood and completely shared the vision of was our team of 08/09. Call me a fantasist, a dreamer or deluded, but I seen our team of 08/09 as one of the most complete footballing sides in modern history. Had we had two quality wide players or a truly offensive full back, I do believe we would have won the league and the champions league that year. I felt that side was so strong, it was almost ridiculous how well drilled the players were, how well executed the tactics were and how well-balanced the team had become, from striker to goalkeeper, everything worked in tandem, everybody had their own individual attributes, yet everybody covered somebody's glaring weakness.

However, since then, we haven't tried to replicate what we created in that side. Maybe I'm wrong to cling onto something like that, but I felt the formula to success was there, the foundations were built, the key chemistry was complete, all that was needed was something a little extra in the wider areas, as the players never caused enough problems for the opposition. But, back to the point, when Alonso left, we lost probably the most pivotal aspect to the foundations, but, and this is the key but; we never tried to replace Alonso with a like-for-like. I couldn't understand why we didn't try it, we tried to change those foundations and it ended horribly. Since then we lost another piece to that extremely strong spine, although not the most irreplaceable piece, he was definitely the fuel to the engine.

Now, maybe I'm wrong to hold on to that team, that formation, that structure, that style, that system, maybe I am, but I can't see any other way for us to compete whilst we still have Torres and Gerrard. I think since Xabi has gone, their best form has been well behind them, and we all know why, because Xabi was pivotal to Gerrard being able to play his natural game to its fullest by exploiting Gerrard's free role by always finding him in space with time on the ball, thus resulting in Gerrard having time to pick out Torres, or pick out Benayoun to play in Torres, or Kuyt, or whoever, but the roles linking to each other was glaringly obvious. Anyhow, I still feel that that is the only way we can get the best out of our big two players, whilst they are still here, we have to build around them and make them the stars of our team. In my opinion, Lucas isn't good enough a player to be part of the magic two that regularly sat behind Gerrard. A worthy back up, but not gifted enough to be an untouchable aspect of our spine.

Now I, in my humblest of opinions, don't feel that is a scathing attack on Lucas, I don't feel I've been harsh or even dismissive of him. As I've posted before, I get his strengths and I see everything he does, but what he does will always be viewed in Xabi's and Javier's shadow, as those are the players he's succeeded, and those will be remembered as the last good 'formula' to making us competitive, I feel.

If that's the formula some people are holding him to, it's not the formula I'm holding him to. The standard I'll always compare Liverpool teams to is the 87-88 team, as it played the best football I've ever seen, and for me remains the acme of what football can be. And Lucas would easily get into that squad, and his inclusion would have strengthened the XI in the most celebrated game of that season. So the argument that he's not Liverpool standard is bollocks. He patently is, even for the strongest Liverpool team of the past 20 years. He's not perfect, but he's definitely good enough to play a role in a traditional Liverpool side, even disregarding modern advances in fitness standards.
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Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2367 on: January 21, 2011, 12:47:23 am »
And...

Quote
When most of the criticism takes the form of long-disproved media myths, as in the example a few posts earlier, it's a pretty clear sign that the critic only understands football in cliched terms. There have been critics whom I've argued with in the past in detail, who clearly understand enough the nuances of football to both listen and speak. They're not the problem. I respect them and their opinion, even if I don't agree with them (just as I respected your opinion that Benitez should go, depite the unappetising choice of replacement, on the grounds that you at least knew what you were talking about, even though I disagreed). It's not what people think of Lucas that shows whether or not they know about football. It's how they think of him. I've questioned his ability on some aspects, and the discussion went into a genial enough thread.

...This is exactly the type of post that is likely to rile Lucas' detractors. In one short paragraph, the poster has managed to:

a) Completely dismiss all the recent people who have voiced their disapproval of Lucas, defining them as having a meagre and foolish understanding of football - only capable of understanding "media cliches".

b) Suggest that his view is by default the correct one, and that his judgement on the correctness of other people's opinions is of ultimate authority.

c) Fundamentally, fail to actually provide any evidence in favour of Lucas, but instead dismiss about half a dozen detractors, many of whom have offered reasonable assessments against Lucas, in a single swipe.

Well done, Valery_Karpin, I think it's fair to say that you have beaten sangria in this debate, because he has absolutely failed to answer any of your questions, and has provided no counter-arguments to your points - many of which are valid.

Offline Valery_Karpin

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2368 on: January 21, 2011, 12:53:44 am »
If that's the formula some people are holding him to, it's not the formula I'm holding him to. The standard I'll always compare Liverpool teams to is the 87-88 team, as it played the best football I've ever seen, and for me remains the acme of what football can be. And Lucas would easily get into that squad, and his inclusion would have strengthened the XI in the most celebrated game of that season. So the argument that he's not Liverpool standard is bollocks. He patently is, even for the strongest Liverpool team of the past 20 years. He's not perfect, but he's definitely good enough to play a role in a traditional Liverpool side, even disregarding modern advances in fitness standards.

But, you see, it isn't bollocks, because he wasn't good enough to get into (arguably) our strongest XI during the past decade. I understand you view the 87/88 team as the greatest and whatever, but that was over 20 years ago. To recapture football in those days is stupidly hard, as everything in English football has changed since then, and I mean everything, and I do think that is a good enough excuse to not use teams from 20/30 years ago as evidence or measuring sticks, as the game has completely changed. The vast sums of money, the vast advancements in professionalism and facilities, the vast improvements in management levels, in finances, in scouting, in just about every area of the game that matters.

However, comparing it to a side that was playing its golden stuff only two years ago, a side that contained many players still here, and a side that contained the player in this debate (largely as a squad player, but he was still around there), I don't feel is too harsh.

But still, it's nice to hear that your argument is bollocks, however pleasantly written, however clearly and fairly you explain it, it is, simply dismissed as bollocks, as that's how RAWK works, and that's the end of the debate.
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Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2369 on: January 21, 2011, 12:53:57 am »
Furthermore, sangria, the entire pretence for your stance is that you love the football played by the Liverpool team of the 1987/88 season. This, and the fact that you are a great admirer of Bill Shankly. I have seen you repeat both several times, but each time you do this, you never once reference how or why Lucas is relevant to either.

Offline koolkamal

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2370 on: January 21, 2011, 01:02:36 am »
Right well I'll apologise for putting words in peoples mouths with regard them making out he's a world beater (although personally, I still think they are...)

What I will say though, hopefully with a degree of certainty, is that everyone on here wants Liverpool to be the best team in the world. So, for me, long-term you are looking at him being one of the best in the world in his positions, and generally speaking those players do have stand-out attributes. I think asking what his stand-out attribute is is a fair enough question.

I can buy that he's going to develop. I've said the same myself. Last year I compared him to Ballack and Pirlo's situations at the same age (even Xavi's) and I wouldn't necessarily say he's behind either. But again, what's he doing brilliantly. He's good at continuity, which is great. Is that enough for a team that aspires to be best in the world? Well...

I mean, he's obviously nowhere near the weak link on the team. Does that mean he's actually going to be good enough eventually though, if the club progresses in the right direction? That's a different question. One I don't think this forum should be so defensive over, or afraid to ask. If it's done respectfully.

I agree that I don't think he's far behind said players when they were the same age.

There's another way to look at it. While it seems like he has no stand out qualities when playing for us, we got to look at the entire teams performances also over the last year or so and also the style of football we've been playing (there's been no continuity that the players you mentioned had). We've been crying out that Torres is not suited to the style of football Hodgson was playing and he's been performing badly. Why can't that be the same for Lucas. While he did do well under Hodgson - but maybe in a pass and move system and when the rest of the team are playing well, we'll start to see more stand out qualities that we may not have seen before. It's difficult to truly assess all of a players qualities when the entire team is in such poor form.

Watching him play for Brazil recently, he does seem to be able to play every kind of pass that we'd like to see... even those long cross field balls that Alonso was famous for. He seems key to the way Brazil play in that almost everything goes through him. His teammates also trust him explicitly. So maybe when our team is playing better or once we'd adapted to a pass and move system better, maybe we'll start to see more of those qualities.

Right now most of what he does, he does well enough to be an important player in the first team and an important player in a team that wants to challenge for titles. It's all about how we play as a unit. If half or even quarter of that unit is not working then the rest aren't going to work either.
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Offline koolkamal

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2371 on: January 21, 2011, 01:04:13 am »
Furthermore, sangria, the entire pretence for your stance is that you love the football played by the Liverpool team of the 1987/88 season. This, and the fact that you are a great admirer of Bill Shankly. I have seen you repeat both several times, but each time you do this, you never once reference how or why Lucas is relevant to either.

RBrittain in almost every previous Lucas topic Sangria has explained his reasons over and over again. I've lost count at how many times he's explained his reasons. That's why he keeps answering questions with a question. :)
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Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2372 on: January 21, 2011, 01:09:44 am »
Quote
RBrittain in almost every previous Lucas topic Sangria has explained his reasons over and over again. I've lost count at how many times he's explained his reasons. That's why he keeps answering questions with a question.

Ah. In that case, he may as well just stay out of the threads? There is no point in answering things half-heartedly. He's failing to answer questions and not providing any actual reasons why Lucas is a good player - just dismissing others' opinions wholesale. It makes it look like he can't answer them or give an evaluative opinion of his own - so, he would be better off to either answer them properly, even if he has done so before, or to just ignore the Lucas detractors.

Offline koolkamal

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2373 on: January 21, 2011, 01:14:05 am »
Ah. In that case, he may as well just stay out of the threads? There is no point in answering things half-heartedly. He's failing to answer questions and not providing any actual reasons why Lucas is a good player - just dismissing others' opinions wholesale. It makes it look like he can't answer them or give an evaluative opinion of his own - so, he would be better off to either answer them properly, even if he has done so before, or to just ignore the Lucas detractors.

Well he was getting to it - that person who said Lucas doesn't fit in to Kennys system... Sangria was trying to guide him to a Whelan who is very similar to the type of player Lucas is. Someone who fitted perfectly in Kennys system.

Also I've pointed out why Lucas is a good player and why he could be better.
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Offline SMD

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2374 on: January 21, 2011, 01:15:21 am »
Let's be honest here... He is a bit overrated on RAWK, ain't he?

I mean you get the odd moron that thinks he's a shite footballer, but then too many go the total opposite and make him out to be a world beater already. I actually think the point someone made on here the other day was a decent one. What is this stand out attribute he has that makes him potentially amongst the best in the world?

I'll defend his ability all day long, but who has actually given a convincing answer to that?

It's quite simple. He's got a good tactical brain and balls the size of boulders. In the age of dimwitted fannies, the fact this is allied with good technique and a good engine makes him a vital member of the squad and a good member of the first team.
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2375 on: January 21, 2011, 01:16:40 am »
Also he's young and his game isn't based on superior strength or pace, so he'll get better with good coaching and experience.

He's a boring version of Didi ;D
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Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2376 on: January 21, 2011, 01:21:27 am »
Ronnie Whelan? He thinks Lucas isn't good enough for LFC. Wouldn't he appreciate Lucas if he was "very similar" to him?

How exactly are they similar, other than that they played in a similar position? I'd say their styles of play are pretty dissimilar.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2377 on: January 21, 2011, 01:24:40 am »
But, you see, it isn't bollocks, because he wasn't good enough to get into (arguably) our strongest XI during the past decade. I understand you view the 87/88 team as the greatest and whatever, but that was over 20 years ago. To recapture football in those days is stupidly hard, as everything in English football has changed since then, and I mean everything, and I do think that is a good enough excuse to not use teams from 20/30 years ago as evidence or measuring sticks, as the game has completely changed. The vast sums of money, the vast advancements in professionalism and facilities, the vast improvements in management levels, in finances, in scouting, in just about every area of the game that matters.

However, comparing it to a side that was playing its golden stuff only two years ago, a side that contained many players still here, and a side that contained the player in this debate (largely as a squad player, but he was still around there), I don't feel is too harsh.

But still, it's nice to hear that your argument is bollocks, however pleasantly written, however clearly and fairly you explain it, it is, simply dismissed as bollocks, as that's how RAWK works, and that's the end of the debate.

I didn't dismiss your argument as bollocks though. I dismissed the argument that he's not Liverpool standard as bollocks. Your arguemnt, I respected, because it stated a reasoned point of view. I responded with my own view, from the perspective you set out. You had your own formula that you were judging him by, I explained that I had my own formula that I was judging him by. The argument I was dismissing as bollocks wasn't your stated argument, which had its line of reasoning and was thought through. The argument I was dismissing as bollocks is the argumentless statement that he's not Liverpool standard, get rid. My oft-repeated dismissal of his critics lies in their only seeing players as individuals, rather than part of a greater whole. Hence my repetition of collective versus the individual. Your argument about the midfield formula obviously doesn't suffer from this, so I didn't dismiss it, but responded with my own view.

I'll explain in further detail what I think of the 87-88 team, and its application to the case of Lucas. The 1st choice midfield pairing that season was Whelan-McMahon. McMahon roamed a lot, which modern football with its emphasis on midfield dominance through numbers may limit. Whelan mostly sat in front of the back 4, breaking up attacks and moving the ball on. In the 5-0 game, this role was played by Spackman. None of these players were noted for their long passing, and the team wasn't set up for it. Molby could do it, but he rarely played, for one reason for another. Instead, what they did was claim a share of the midfield, setting a basis for the front 4 to attack. This was backed by a back 4 containing at least one attacking full back, plus Liverpool's customary 2 ball playing CBs. Plus a sweeper keeper.

The Liverpool 1st choice XI contains many of these components. A sweeper keeper, at least 1 ballplaying CB, at least 1 attacking fullback, a frontman, a second striker. Lucas can play the Whelan role at least as well, and more flexibly, as Spackman could. It's a pity that the loss of Mascherano, Aquilani and Insua deprived Dalglish of these resources, but they don't fundamentally unbalance the team. I'd argue that it's up front on the flanks, where there is the greatest scope for improvement. A pass and move team, as described by Shankly, needs a certain technical standard from all its players to work. I'd say that Lucas measures up to that standard, enough so that he's not anywhere near the top of the list for replacement. It's the other areas of the team, notably on the flanks up front, where Liverpool doesn't measure up.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2378 on: January 21, 2011, 01:32:15 am »
Quote
He's a boring version of Didi

Er, not really. I'm also not sure if it's useful to compare him to near-legends like Hamann. For one, they're totally different players and for two, it would add more weight to the argument in favour of Lucas to actually extol his qualities rather than to compare him to better players like Didi.

Offline bam09

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2379 on: January 21, 2011, 01:37:53 am »
Let's be honest here... He is a bit overrated on RAWK, ain't he?

I mean you get the odd moron that thinks he's a shite footballer, but then too many go the total opposite and make him out to be a world beater already. I actually think the point someone made on here the other day was a decent one. What is this stand out attribute he has that makes him potentially amongst the best in the world?

I'll defend his ability all day long, but who has actually given a convincing answer to that?

He's not a world beater, but he's better than decent. His stand out attribute is his efficiency. He's by far one of the most efficient players on the planet, and it's why all of the managers that have had him rate him so much.

The fact is, that although Lucas may no be the calibre of your elite CMs, if you plugged him into almost any XI that plays good football, Lucas would not look out of place.

It's similar to why Busquets is first choice over Mascherano at Barca. Mascherano is going to fetch a higher fee than Busquets and is the more flashy, and pacier, stronger, aggressive and better tackler along with having decent passing range but he's not the efficient player that Guardiola needs in his side that Busquets provides.

Offline SMD

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2380 on: January 21, 2011, 01:42:01 am »
Er, not really. I'm also not sure if it's useful to compare him to near-legends like Hamann. For one, they're totally different players and for two, it would add more weight to the argument in favour of Lucas to actually extol his qualities rather than to compare him to better players like Didi.

How are they totally different?
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2381 on: January 21, 2011, 01:42:35 am »
Whelan who is very similar to the type of player Lucas is.

I can understand why you'd come to that conclusion given Ronnie was considered a bit of a water carrier, but it's not even close. He was more mobile, he used to press more, he was tougher but blessed with flair and an eye for a cute pass, and he chipped in with goals. There was no passengers in those great sides, you had to be blessed with great ability. Lucas is having a succesful time at the moment because he's playing in an ordinary team. Although I'll say one thing in his favour the game is less open than it was back then with more emphasis on shape and not movement.

I've championed him at DM in the past but I'm still not sure he's got a defining role in English football. It's like he's caught in the middle of two.
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Offline bam09

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2382 on: January 21, 2011, 01:46:23 am »
I can understand why you'd come to that conclusion given Ronnie was considered a bit of a water carrier, but it's not even close. He was more mobile, he used to press more, he was tougher but blessed with flair and an eye for a cute pass, and he chipped in with goals. There was no passengers in those great sides, you had to be blessed with great ability. Lucas is having a succesful time at the moment because he's playing in an ordinary team. Although I'll say one thing in his favour the game is less open than it was back then with more emphasis on shape and not movement.

I've championed him at DM in the past but I'm still not sure he's got a defining role in English football. It's like he's caught in the middle of two.

He's a perfect DM in a 433 in a side that relies on retaining possession. Or he could do well in a 4-2-3-1 with a defensive partner who is disciplined and has a great positional sense. Those are the two formations a clued in manager would play with this side, as well as the formation(s) that the fans would like with the attacking flair.

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2383 on: January 21, 2011, 01:48:21 am »
I can understand why you'd come to that conclusion given Ronnie was considered a bit of a water carrier, but it's not even close. He was more mobile, he used to press more, he was tougher but blessed with flair and an eye for a cute pass, and he chipped in with goals. There was no passengers in those great sides, you had to be blessed with great ability. Lucas is having a succesful time at the moment because he's playing in an ordinary team. Although I'll say one thing in his favour the game is less open than it was back then with more emphasis on shape and not movement.

I've championed him at DM in the past but I'm still not sure he's got a defining role in English football. It's like he's caught in the middle of two.
The only real comparison of the two is that they were both the Kops whipping boy at one time or another.
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Offline smig

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2384 on: January 21, 2011, 01:49:14 am »
I get your point (I know it wasn't directed at me, but I will debate it anyway).

You see, there are some of us that do understand the game, I understand it completely, and, one thing I completely understood and completely shared the vision of was our team of 08/09. Call me a fantasist, a dreamer or deluded, but I seen our team of 08/09 as one of the most complete footballing sides in modern history. Had we had two quality wide players or a truly offensive full back, I do believe we would have won the league and the champions league that year. I felt that side was so strong, it was almost ridiculous how well drilled the players were, how well executed the tactics were and how well-balanced the team had become, from striker to goalkeeper, everything worked in tandem, everybody had their own individual attributes, yet everybody covered somebody's glaring weakness.

However, since then, we haven't tried to replicate what we created in that side. Maybe I'm wrong to cling onto something like that, but I felt the formula to success was there, the foundations were built, the key chemistry was complete, all that was needed was something a little extra in the wider areas, as the players never caused enough problems for the opposition. But, back to the point, when Alonso left, we lost probably the most pivotal aspect to the foundations, but, and this is the key but; we never tried to replace Alonso with a like-for-like. I couldn't understand why we didn't try it, we tried to change those foundations and it ended horribly. Since then we lost another piece to that extremely strong spine, although not the most irreplaceable piece, he was definitely the fuel to the engine.

Now, maybe I'm wrong to hold on to that team, that formation, that structure, that style, that system, maybe I am, but I can't see any other way for us to compete whilst we still have Torres and Gerrard. I think since Xabi has gone, their best form has been well behind them, and we all know why, because Xabi was pivotal to Gerrard being able to play his natural game to its fullest by exploiting Gerrard's free role by always finding him in space with time on the ball, thus resulting in Gerrard having time to pick out Torres, or pick out Benayoun to play in Torres, or Kuyt, or whoever, but the roles linking to each other was glaringly obvious. Anyhow, I still feel that that is the only way we can get the best out of our big two players, whilst they are still here, we have to build around them and make them the stars of our team. In my opinion, Lucas isn't good enough a player to be part of the magic two that regularly sat behind Gerrard. A worthy back up, but not gifted enough to be an untouchable aspect of our spine.

Now I, in my humblest of opinions, don't feel that is a scathing attack on Lucas, I don't feel I've been harsh or even dismissive of him. As I've posted before, I get his strengths and I see everything he does, but what he does will always be viewed in Xabi's and Javier's shadow, as those are the players he's succeeded, and those will be remembered as the last good 'formula' to making us competitive, I feel.
Nail on the head there pal. Lucas would be a more than reasonable squad player in a side challenging for the Premier League and Champions League titles, but I don't believe he is of the standard to play regularly for a side aspiring towards those goals. I just don't feel he has the quality. He's without a doubt a player who gives his all, and has unquestionably improved his overall game since his arrival nearly four years ago. However, I believe Alonso and Mascherano are a suitable benchmark from which we should be looking to judge Liverpool central midfielders, the level of quality we need in the middle to become a successful and strong side again. You can bleat on about Lucas having different qualities to both those players, but in my opinion he just isn't as a good a footballer as either of them. If you were to combine Alonso and Mascherano's qualities, in my book they would cover every aspect of a good central midfielder. His speed of thought is not as quick as Xabi's, neither is his range/quality of passing or his ability to manouvre an extra yard or two for himself in a congested area of the pitch. Nor is his tackling, positional play or closing down as effective as Mascherano's.

It may well be unfair to compare Lucas to Alonso, but when Lucas is often the player who drops deep to collect the ball from the centre halves (much like what Xabi used to do for the side), comparisons are always going to be made between the two. The tempo of our game is far too slow (particularly away from Anfield) more often than not, and that starts from the back.

I won't shy away from my belief that Lucas would be a very useful squad player for us, but as I've stated on many an ocassion, I don't think he has the quality we need to help take us back to the top. We have been bullied away from home on a regular basis since the end of the 08/09 season, and Lucas has played in the vast majority of those games. I've seen us outfought and outplayed in the middle of the park time and time again, and the results prove it. Surely if Lucas is such a good player, this shouldn't be happening in his area of the pitch? I stand by what I've said in the past in that from his 149 appearances to date, there are very few that I can recall him controlling the game for us. The whole side has to take a share of the blame for our dire away form since the beginning of last season, but Lucas should not be exempt from criticism either. I'm probably overly-critical of the lad, and I'll hold my hands up and admit that. But I've always felt whenever he's put in a good shift for us, I've generally given him the praise I've felt he's deserved (I felt Chelsea at home this season was his best display in a red shirt to date) . However, the lengths some will go to excuse him from any blame or justify a bog-standard performance as "Outstanding" just stinks of bias to me and blind faith.
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Offline liverpooll

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2385 on: January 21, 2011, 01:49:29 am »
He's not a world beater, but he's better than decent. His stand out attribute is his efficiency. He's by far one of the most efficient players on the planet, and it's why all of the managers that have had him rate him so much.

The fact is, that although Lucas may no be the calibre of your elite CMs, if you plugged him into almost any XI that plays good football, Lucas would not look out of place.

It's similar to why Busquets is first choice over Mascherano at Barca. Mascherano is going to fetch a higher fee than Busquets and is the more flashy, and pacier, stronger, aggressive and better tackler along with having decent passing range but he's not the efficient player that Guardiola needs in his side that Busquets provides.

Back to the same question!

Can we afford Lucas efficiency when the team is playing not bad. At these times, you need players to step up and lead the team out of the crisis. Lucas has not done anything like that for 2 years and so can we really afford this kind of player?

His situation resembles greatly to Kuyt. Both are decent in all areas rather than brilliant in some areas. Both are efficient and committed players. Kuyt is a world cup runner up and so is rated by many managers. So I wonder would Kuyt have the same passionate defense as in the case of Lucas? As to why is Kuyt rated so negative at the moment?

The point is people start taking this as a criticism of Lucas. But I am not really criticizing Lucas but rather saying he is replaceable. Again your last comment about being him not look out of place in World XI could be said about every other player. Your point is basically, wait till we become the best team and then everyone will start praising Lucas and see his value(which can be said of every player in the best team). But we do not have the time and right direction to wait to see his value.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 01:56:25 am by liverpooll »

Offline minusone

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2386 on: January 21, 2011, 01:50:57 am »
He's boss. Close the thread.

But in all honesty, i'd rather be debating this than civil insurrection against owners and/or manager.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2387 on: January 21, 2011, 01:58:15 am »
He's a perfect DM in a 433 in a side that relies on retaining possession. Or he could do well in a 4-2-3-1 with a defensive partner who is disciplined and has a great positional sense. Those are the two formations a clued in manager would play with this side, as well as the formation(s) that the fans would like with the attacking flair.

He'd do well in a well balanced side. In an unbalanced side, he'll try his hardest. Without comparing him with the world elite, that would already put him streets ahead of most of the current squad, as a footballer and as a person. Looking at the Shankly quote about pass and move football again, and looking at his comments about favouring players who would put out their all for the team, and how each player would play his part in a collective whole, and he is essentially describing Lucas. Whether or not he's outstanding, he fits the Liverpool player mould, rather more than most of the current squad.
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2388 on: January 21, 2011, 01:58:24 am »
He's a perfect DM in a 433 in a side that relies on retaining possession. Or he could do well in a 4-2-3-1 with a defensive partner who is disciplined and has a great positional sense. Those are the two formations a clued in manager would play with this side, as well as the formation(s) that the fans would like with the attacking flair.

We tried him alongside Masch and he looked like he didn't know whether to stick or twist. I'm not sure he's quick enough to be a sole DM in a 3 man midfield either. I keep hearing people saying he's tough but for me that's the worst part of his game. He'll put in a great battling performance against one of the big clubs and then go into hiding at Stoke. The stats are great and all that but the reality is you need to stand up to the physical challenge in English football and then play your football.

Maybe it's just a simple case of confidence but he needs to add more aggression to not only his defending but also when he's in possession. There's keeping things ticking over and then there's plain predictable. Maybe it's just not in his nature.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2389 on: January 21, 2011, 02:03:58 am »
So, if one or more people make posts expressing their opinion of Lucas and one or more others make posts disagreeing with that opinion and arguing the opposite that amounts to the first poster or group of posters being "jumped on" by the second poster or group of posters?
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Offline CHOPPER

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2390 on: January 21, 2011, 02:07:49 am »
So, if one or more people make posts expressing their opinion of Lucas and one or more others make posts disagreeing with that opinion and arguing the opposite that amounts to the first poster or group of posters being "jumped on" by the second poster or group of posters?
It's called debate, unless of course you're discussing Benitez and then it becomes treason.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2391 on: January 21, 2011, 02:08:09 am »
It may well be unfair to compare Lucas to Alonso, but when Lucas is often the player who drops deep to collect the ball from the centre halves (much like what Xabi used to do for the side), comparisons are always going to be made between the two. The tempo of our game is far too slow (particularly away from Anfield) more often than not, and that starts from the back.

Why not return to the Liverpool tradition of having 2 ball playing CBs? Why compartmentalise when you can have everyone able to do everything to a reasonable level, so the opposition won't know your pattern of play? This was Shankly's revolution after all, making Liverpool the first English team to completely mix up the lines.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2392 on: January 21, 2011, 02:10:04 am »
It's called debate, unless of course you're discussing Benitez and then it becomes treason.

I understand and that was my point. It wasn't I who made the claim about being "jumped on".
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Offline CHOPPER

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2393 on: January 21, 2011, 02:13:43 am »
I understand and that was my point. It wasn't I who made the claim about being "jumped on".
I know, relax, am just having a laugh.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2394 on: January 21, 2011, 02:14:22 am »
I know, relax, am just having a laugh.

Chilled and fair enough.
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Offline SMD

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2395 on: January 21, 2011, 02:14:29 am »
I don't know about you guys but I thought the three against Everton were easily the most balanced midfield trio we've seen this season.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2396 on: January 21, 2011, 02:18:12 am »
I don't know about you guys but I thought the three against Everton were easily the most balanced midfield trio we've seen this season.

I may be jumping the gun but I'd rather Jonjo play in lieu of Spearing, if Lucas is at the apex (pointing in the direction of Pepe) of the midfield triangle.

I.e. i would rather see:

Lucas
Shelvey Meireles

than

Lucas
Spearing Meireles

If Spearing is to play, it should be thus:

Spearing
CM CM

I reckon when Stevie returns it's going to be

Lucas
Gerrard Meireles
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 02:30:32 am by GrkStav »
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2397 on: January 21, 2011, 02:22:54 am »
All I can say is, sangria, doth thou patience have no end?

Offline bam09

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2398 on: January 21, 2011, 02:34:22 am »
We tried him alongside Masch and he looked like he didn't know whether to stick or twist. I'm not sure he's quick enough to be a sole DM in a 3 man midfield either. I keep hearing people saying he's tough but for me that's the worst part of his game. He'll put in a great battling performance against one of the big clubs and then go into hiding at Stoke. The stats are great and all that but the reality is you need to stand up to the physical challenge in English football and then play your football.

Maybe it's just a simple case of confidence but he needs to add more aggression to not only his defending but also when he's in possession. There's keeping things ticking over and then there's plain predictable. Maybe it's just not in his nature.

Mascherano isn't very disciplined. He was all over the place. He would chase a player for 30 yards and stick a tackle in him and then burst forward into the box which is what everyone loved about Masch: he was all over the pitch wrecking havoc. Lucas was left largely unprotected right in the middle of the park, which left us vulnerable to counter attacks because Masch had tried a darting run forward,  one of Johnson and Insua were overlapping trying to provide width leaving Lucas along with the two other centrehalfs and a FB to cover. Having said that Mascherano had the ability to recover because of his engine and pace(see all the sliding tackles/shoulder nudges he had from behind) but it left Lucas bare.

With a more tactically grounded player like Meireles, Lucas knows where he will be and where he should cover, allowing him to cut an angle for a pass(because it wasn't an oddman break where the attacker had his choice of pass with an undisciplined partner) because he knows where Meireles is, and that he's doing his job on his side of the pitch so Lucas can do his as well knowing that he's protected. When breaking out or holding the ball, you can see that the two understand each other well because the two generally pass from one to the other(especially when one is being pressured before getting the ball, or when about to receive the ball) and they can move up the pitch. Where as with Gerrard or Masch the pass was always staggered and the pair of them enjoyed hoofing it/playing a long ball to a wideman instead of making the simple pass.

In a 4-3-3 you can use the anchor CM as a reference point to reset the ball and restart the attack. That's what Lucas can provide as he is smart enough to play the easy pass when needed, create an angle to open up a longer pass along the floor out wide, and he has the ability to play a killer ball through the middle of the defense. Defending wise, as long as one of the other CMs stays back a bit and the weakside full back has the sense to not bomb forward all the time then the defending should be relatively smooth. The other big plus of having him at the anchor position is his ability to read the opposition and pick off passes. If we have him starting the attack consistently than we know we will have the ball moving forward quickly, or that we will at least keep the ball if there is no available pass for Lucas(watch the amount of times he's fouled from behind because he slows his pace down to intentionally get it as nobody is open).

Lucas is very tough. When you think about the amount of times he goes into a tackle every game, or how hard he goes for a header compare, how many times has he actually gone off for a 2 minute treatment or been subbed off due to injury? He comes up wincing all the time though, and he just plays through it.

Just for reference this year @ Stoke he put in 6 challenges, only 1 less than Gerrard, @ Bolton he put in 12 which was double Gerrard @ Wigan he put in 14 which was 1 more than Gerrard and Poulsen combined and 2 more than Meireles. @ Newcastle he had 9, which was 7 more than Meireles. @ Blackburn he put in 9, Gerrard had 2. Just to show how he did in the scruffier away games this year vs. his partner.

Offline smilingmart

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2399 on: January 21, 2011, 03:44:57 am »
We should keep Lucas because he is better than Alonso
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