Author Topic: Financial Fair Play - developments in here  (Read 168936 times)

Offline Paul JH

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2013, 01:33:16 pm »
I genuinely don't know why people discuss this rule?
It's a total nonentity, clubs are spending more than they ever have, and it's not remotely going to change anything as they'll all find a way to get around it.

Sad really, but its lip-service for fans to get them back in stadiums, to make them think it will increase competition, when it won't in any way.
After what is happening this summer, why even be bothered about it?

 ???
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Offline RedHopper

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2013, 03:34:54 pm »
As I mentioned on another thread it has already had a major impact. Man city's four signings apparently earn 80k a week. They've moved on Ballotelli, tevez, maicon, toure, santa cruz and bridge who were all earning a lot more than that. Chelsea have only signed Schurrle and van ginkel and moved on Florent malouda, yossi benayoun, paolo ferreira and ross turnbull. Arsenal and Man utd have bought a 20 year old for the reserves, and spurs' new signings are all earning in the region of 70-80k at the most. All of this is happening while tv income is about to jump by £30 million. If this were any other season when the tv income jumped wages and fees would be soaring and everyone would be going mad.

80k is now what you pay a player moving to the premiership. Chelsea might go a bit over that if they buy rooney, and man utd could pay fellaini and baines a bit more if they sign, but otherwise you're seen a remarkable fall off in the level of wages to about 80k. It's in this context that we're looking to sign young players on 40k and more experienced players for nearer 60.

FFP has had a big impact in italy, and lead to the fall of inter, the rise of napoli, and milan taking an axe to their squad and slipping back quite far. Sure it's done nothing about PSG or Monaco, but it is having the effect of  taking an awful lot of heat out of the english transfer market.

Offline StrikingMidfield

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2013, 05:47:14 pm »
As I mentioned on another thread it has already had a major impact. Man city's four signings apparently earn 80k a week. They've moved on Ballotelli, tevez, maicon, toure, santa cruz and bridge who were all earning a lot more than that. Chelsea have only signed Schurrle and van ginkel and moved on Florent malouda, yossi benayoun, paolo ferreira and ross turnbull. Arsenal and Man utd have bought a 20 year old for the reserves, and spurs' new signings are all earning in the region of 70-80k at the most. All of this is happening while tv income is about to jump by £30 million. If this were any other season when the tv income jumped wages and fees would be soaring and everyone would be going mad.

80k is now what you pay a player moving to the premiership. Chelsea might go a bit over that if they buy rooney, and man utd could pay fellaini and baines a bit more if they sign, but otherwise you're seen a remarkable fall off in the level of wages to about 80k. It's in this context that we're looking to sign young players on 40k and more experienced players for nearer 60.

FFP has had a big impact in italy, and lead to the fall of inter, the rise of napoli, and milan taking an axe to their squad and slipping back quite far. Sure it's done nothing about PSG or Monaco, but it is having the effect of  taking an awful lot of heat out of the english transfer market.
Great post. I think most people (myself included) were expecting it to be a quick change.  I think that it's not going to be fixing a lot of the current issues, but I think it'll make the future a lot better than it would have been.
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Offline redy

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2013, 04:21:44 am »
As I mentioned on another thread it has already had a major impact. Man city's four signings apparently earn 80k a week. They've moved on Ballotelli, tevez, maicon, toure, santa cruz and bridge who were all earning a lot more than that. Chelsea have only signed Schurrle and van ginkel and moved on Florent malouda, yossi benayoun, paolo ferreira and ross turnbull. Arsenal and Man utd have bought a 20 year old for the reserves, and spurs' new signings are all earning in the region of 70-80k at the most. All of this is happening while tv income is about to jump by £30 million. If this were any other season when the tv income jumped wages and fees would be soaring and everyone would be going mad.

80k is now what you pay a player moving to the premiership. Chelsea might go a bit over that if they buy rooney, and man utd could pay fellaini and baines a bit more if they sign, but otherwise you're seen a remarkable fall off in the level of wages to about 80k. It's in this context that we're looking to sign young players on 40k and more experienced players for nearer 60.

FFP has had a big impact in italy, and lead to the fall of inter, the rise of napoli, and milan taking an axe to their squad and slipping back quite far. Sure it's done nothing about PSG or Monaco, but it is having the effect of  taking an awful lot of heat out of the english transfer market.

I'm very ignorant about it but it hasn't done anything for PSG, Monaco, Real, Barca, City (not when they keep spending 100m every summer except last one), maybe Chelsea but again not them either if they get Rooney. So it has impacted the Italians, United, Arsenal and Liverpool. My questions is why the difference?

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2013, 04:29:13 am »
What the actual fuck... Is going on with FFP?

The type of penalties most people want to see (i.e. the banning of clubs) don't arrive until 2014/15. There is clearly a change though in the way most clubs are operating, which is evident by the lack of movement in this year's PL transfer market.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 04:30:56 am by rafathegaffa83 »

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2013, 08:20:42 am »
The type of penalties most people want to see (i.e. the banning of clubs) don't arrive until 2014/15. There is clearly a change though in the way most clubs are operating, which is evident by the lack of movement in this year's PL transfer market.

So what happens to Monaco next year?

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2013, 09:19:16 am »
FFP was never going to be a quick fix for the simple reason that clubs buy players on 4 or 5 year contracts. As happened at City, we couldn't get rid of some of those until their contracts had run their course. UEFA introduced a transitional relief whereby the wages of players paid under contracts signed prior to June 2010 can be excluded in certain circumstances. That's why I suspect UEFA will be relatively lenient for the first couple of seasons as long as clubs can show they're well on course to comply. If clubs are taking the piss then they probably won't be.

In answer to redy's point, RedHopper is correct that it has had an impact at City. You can't look at a gross spend of £90m (some of which is probably add-ons) without looking at the financial context. That money doesn't go straight into the accounts but is charged over the life of the contract. On 5 year contracts that works out at a charge of £18m a year but that's directly offset by the loss of Tevez, Balotelli & Toure. Add the wages of Bridge & Santa Cruz into the equation and this summer has actually seen us save a significant amount of money.

Also this summer is possibly a bad one to judge on anyway as the PL clubs will be getting a revenue boost from the new TV deal. Next summer could be a more interesting test.

Offline RedHopper

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2013, 09:31:32 am »
I'm very ignorant about it but it hasn't done anything for PSG, Monaco, Real, Barca, City (not when they keep spending 100m every summer except last one), maybe Chelsea but again not them either if they get Rooney. So it has impacted the Italians, United, Arsenal and Liverpool. My questions is why the difference?

It hasn't done anything about PSG and Monaco because they've chosen flat out to ignore it, and nothing happens for another couple of season. I think that is happening at the moment is that clubs who are looking to comply with FFP are selling these clubs players for huge sums, and using the money to sort out their own finances and rebuild their squad. Look at napoli, they've got nearly £90 million from PSG for lavezzi and cavani, now rafa is using that money to help a profitable, well run Napoli (who ever thought those words would go together) to challenge for a title without a sugar daddy.

Real and Barca don't have any worries from FFP because both are hugely rich, profitable clubs. They have huge stadia that they sell out for substantial sums of money. The Spanish TV contract is small compared to the premiership, however real madrid and barca get a third each, so they have huge money, and because they have no real rivals, and because they have national followings, they divide all of the sponsorship money for the spanish market between the two of them.

City and Chelsea have taken steps to comply with FFP, that may or may not get them there. If you look at chelsea's transfer dealings, they've replaced a lot of older players on huge salaries, with younger players who earn a lot less. Juan mata for example was on a contract in the region of 60-70k. Had he arrived at chelsea five years earlier, he'd have been earning twice as much. Chelsea have been pumping money in for so long, and have built up their income quite a lot. They've reached a point where they just have to cut back their spending a bit, and use the new TV contract to close the gap. If chelsea can get their income to the £300 million mark, then they will actually be able to comfortably afford a wage bill of £180 million. chelsea will probably eventually meet the FFP requirements.

City, have changed their methods of buying players. They now no longer seem to be signing marquee players, but instead signing second rank players, and paying them relatively moderate, performance related contracts.

I think it's important to remember that FFP has a number of distinct aims. The first is to stop clubs from buying titles and places in the champions league just because they have a rich owner. That is going to be the trickiest area. But that's only one part of it. Preventing finacial doping isn't going to suddenly make chelsea a small club, or shrink Ac milan. Big clubs can change their ways and bounce back in the medium to long term.

The second aim is to stop the relentless upward pressure on wages, caused by having some owners who simply don't care what wages they pay players, or that it drives up wages for other clubs. That seems to have taken effect already. the third aim is to introduce stability as clubs collapse, and people don't get paid when a sugar daddy suddenly pulls the plug, like with malaga, or Anzhi.

The fourth aim is to prevent the biggest clubs in a league from financially doping (spending money they don't earn) and once you do that, then Leagues can use their support to implement stricter financial rules throughout leagues. if every club in a league is banned from losing money, then they all have to become stable and slightly profitable. It means that everyone gets paid, and over time it means that the league becomes stronger. If every club has control of its wagebill, and its expenses, and has been able to upgrade its infrastructure and has as big a stadium as they can fill, then you will have a much more competitive league, as no-one has money troubles.

The Fifth aim is to tackle the huge problem of debts that have been run up to pay for excessive spending on players. If clubs can't lose money, then they can't increase these debts, and they can start to pay them back. Once clubs have cleared these debts, they no longer have to make repayments, or pay interest. Look at the example of everton. They spend a little bit more than they earn every year, and as a result have run up a moderate £45 million in debt. However that's more than they can afford, and every year it winds up getting a little bit bigger. They have to come up with cash every year to meet repayments and interest, and that forces them to sell key players at certain times, and not replace them. if you look at their activity over the last couple of years, you can see everton frequently sell a player for a big chunk of money, when it is too late for them to find a replacement in the transfer market.

If Everton could find some way of removing that debt, it would prevent money being sucked out of the club in future, and they would just about be able to afford their wage bill. What is likely to happen this summer, is that they will sell baines and fellaini for £40 million, spend about half of that on replacements. Use the other £20 million to pay down half the debt, and then use a lot of the increase in TV money to pay down the rest. When Everton are debt free, they can then use all the money they earn to spend on players, and to a) buy back their training ground from the council which will improve their balance sheet, and mean that they no longer have to pay rent. b) Invest money in  things that will increase their income like a new stadium, or upgrading goodison.

FFP isn't trying to stop clubs borrowing money for things like stadia. For instance there is nothing wrong with Arsenal borrowing £300 million to build a 60,000 seater stadium, that added £60 million a year to their income, while costing only £30 million in repayments.


The reason that we're so in favour of FFP is that a) by reducing wage inflation, it makes it easier for us to assemble a strong squad 'on the cheap'. b) by preventing chelsea and man city from 'buying' a place in the CL by signing a couple of megastars every season just because the year begins with a 2 it will make it easier for us to get back to the CL. c) We have an awful lot of earning potential if we get things right, and if we get back to the CL, and have expanded Anfield, we'll be one of the richest clubs in europe, and be able to afford one of the biggest wagebills, and be able to challenge for major trophies.

and d) in an football system where you can't pump your own money into a team, the value of a club is then just related to the amount of money it earns. If we're one of the richest clubs in europe, with one of the biggest turnovers, and with a fully expanded stadium, then we're much more valuable and FSG stand to make more money. 

Now people may be rightly sceptical about whether or not UEFA is actually going to take actions against clubs that simply just break the FFP requirements, but the thing you have to consider is that if Platini looks like he's not going to kick out the two french clubs or man city, then the chief executives of Real madrid, Barcelona, manchester united, Bayern Munich, Arsenal, liverpool AC Milan, dortmund, Napoli, Spurs...... will take him into a room and gently persuade him otherwise. They have all followed the rules, and will want them enforced. These are the big rich clubs, with the huge fanbases that the CL relies on, and they will want it enforced, and if that means kicking out a team with an average attendance of about 5,000, or a bizarre marketing exercise in a bored paris, or the second team in second ranking english city, then fine.

Offline RedHopper

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2013, 09:50:41 am »
Also this summer is possibly a bad one to judge on anyway as the PL clubs will be getting a revenue boost from the new TV deal. Next summer could be a more interesting test.

no it's a good one, as this is the time when wages traditionally explode. Every other time there has been a new tv contract, premiership clubs have spent every single penny and more on fees and wages, and individual player wages have rocketed.

city's attempt to get around FFP are twofold. The first as was mentioned above is to prune their squad. Tevez earned over £10 million a year. Ballotelli earned £9 million. Jovetic and negredo earn £4 million each. Maicon was on a fair whack as well, and between them toure, santa cruz and Bridge earned £300k a week to sit on their arses, or play for other clubs. Tevez had a £9 million a year amortization charge associated with his contract, Ballotellli had a £5 million charge, Maicon and bridge had £1 million each, Toure £2.4 million and santa cruz had £3.6 million a year. That's a reduction of £22 milion, which more than covers the impact of signing the four players.

However City could have made much more serious progress if they hadn't renewed yaya toure's contract, and potentially sold him. he earns at least £200k a week, and he had a £7 million amortization charge associated with him. He's a fine player but he's old and from the point of view of FFP he 'cost' Man city £17 million a year. (now down to £13.5million) If they sold him and replaced him with a much younger player who cost about £25 million and was paid £80k a week the FFP cost of such a player on a five year contract would be £4 million a year in wages, and £5 million in amortization charge or a "saving" of £8 million a year, and city would have renewed another part of their team.   

But the major way that city are trying to get around FFP is to cheat. Man city have a collection of insanely lucrative sponsorship deals with companies that are based in the middle east, and primarily in the Abu dhabi region. In 2011-12 their commercial income of £111 million was only slightly below that of Man utd at £120 million. You might argue that Man city are in the premier league, and watched all around the world, and won the title that year, but the idea that they already had sponsorship deals as lucrative as Man utd, who Have a long history of success, a long track record in maximizing their commercial income, a huge global fanbase, and huge 'brand value' is kind of absurd. however unless Uefa can prove that these deals are all fraud, rather than ridiculous overpaying in an era of even bigger deals, then there's very little they can do about it, and the emirati's can keep pumping money into their grubby little reputation laundering PR front.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2013, 09:57:27 am »
"Cheating" implies we've broken rules. We haven't. Get over it.

Offline Acaustiq

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2013, 10:07:42 am »
however unless Uefa can prove that these deals are all fraud, rather than ridiculous overpaying in an era of even bigger deals, then there's very little they can do about it, and the emirati's can keep pumping money into their grubby little reputation laundering PR front.

Untrue, the rules require a licensee to demonstrate that the deals are not fraudulent. It's not for uefa to prove, it's for the licensee to disprove when called upon to do so by the monitoring panel.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2013, 10:09:20 am »
"Cheating" implies we've broken rules. We haven't. Get over it.

I think you probably need to take a wider view of what's actually going on, as some of your fellow fans have in the City thread. Man City have stretched the rules in a clever way. I'm not sure how many Liverpool fans would rally against this if it is was our club but you cannot say City are upholding Financial Fair Play.

It is a weird world. Look at Real Madrid, they are about to spend £90+ million on  a player just as many of their "colleagues" in the Spanish league are facing bankruptcy and AMAZINGLY 50% of young people in their country are unemployed! Close to obscene, no?
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2013, 10:24:02 am »
"Cheating" implies we've broken rules. We haven't. Get over it.

Do us a favour, when someone so accurately describes how your club is circumventing the rules, don't be a bellend about it.

A whole fucking paragraph about how you've done well on the player side of things and you have a whine about the point made on sponsorship deals. Christ.

Offline RedHopper

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2013, 10:39:55 am »
The problem is that unless UEFA have evidence that the guy who runs man city rang up his cousin who owns Emirates, and said "how's about throwing a couple of hundred million quid into the abu dhabi royal family reputation laundering exercise there cuz," then they can't prove anything. The fact that the contracts are insanely big then slips through the rules because Man utd get £23 million for rebranding their training ground and their training kit.

Offline Acaustiq

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2013, 10:48:13 am »
The problem is that unless UEFA have evidence that the guy who runs man city rang up his cousin who owns Emirates, and said "how's about throwing a couple of hundred million quid into the abu dhabi royal family reputation laundering exercise there cuz," then they can't prove anything. The fact that the contracts are insanely big then slips through the rules because Man utd get £23 million for rebranding their training ground and their training kit.

You don't half talk some shit.
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Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2013, 10:48:36 am »
"Cheating" implies we've broken rules. We haven't. Get over it.

City will find a way around the rules, but that doesn't mean you haven't broken them, if you think a small club like City can pay those transfer fees and wages that huge established clubs like Madrid, Barca and United would struggle to pay then you are one deluded guy
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Offline RedHopper

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2013, 10:52:56 am »
You don't half talk some shit.

alright then. Why is what I'm saying shit? Is my grasp of the structure and relationship between the club and its sponsors incorrect? Am I incorrect when I think that city having such huge sponsorship deals is absurd? Am I spouting shit when pointing out that it's virtually impossible for Uefa to prove collusion between clubs and sponsors, or am I spouting shit because I say that City are able to justify these insane deals by saying that Premier league clubs have huge sponsorship deals.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2013, 11:03:06 am »
Man City's other dodge is the development of the area around their ground. The expenditure does not count for FFP as it is infrastructure, and the proceeds count as club revenue. Given the proposed size of the redevelopment, they could easily cover any spending they felt like with the revenue.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2013, 11:06:26 am »
I think you probably need to take a wider view of what's actually going on, as some of your fellow fans have in the City thread. Man City have stretched the rules in a clever way. I'm not sure how many Liverpool fans would rally against this if it is was our club but you cannot say City are upholding Financial Fair Play.

It is a weird world. Look at Real Madrid, they are about to spend £90+ million on  a player just as many of their "colleagues" in the Spanish league are facing bankruptcy and AMAZINGLY 50% of young people in their country are unemployed! Close to obscene, no?
I've never denied that probably the main attraction of the Sheikh owning City was the ability to promote Abu Dhabi and part of that is that major AD-based companies like Etihad and Aabar have the chance to promote themselves globally. Are they not allowed to do that?

Sports sponsorship is an excellent way of promoting your brand and a leading club in the PL offers one of the best opportunities for doing that. Look at your own official partners. Ramsey (a Turkish owned menswear chain) don't have a shop in Liverpool One. Maxxis (a Taiwanese based tyre supplier) don't have their main logistics centre on Edge Lane as far as I'm aware. These companies pay to get their name seen around the world by people who watch the PL, European competitions (and any other sporting events they're involved in). There's no question that Etihad's involvement in F1 and football has had a major impact on their level of brand awareness (plus they have a major operation based in Manchester).

Warrior paid you far more than an established supplier thought you were worth to get a foothold in the football market. They may even make a loss on the deal as the terms are so heavily weighted in your favour but presumably they've calculated that the knock-on effect will make it worthwhile. Good for you and good for them if it comes off.

So while we've created a new model I totally refute the idea that we've stretched, let alone broken, any rules.

As for your point about Real Madrid, that's got nothing to do with FFP per se.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2013, 11:07:25 am »
Man City's other dodge is the development of the area around their ground. The expenditure does not count for FFP as it is infrastructure, and the proceeds count as club revenue. Given the proposed size of the redevelopment, they could easily cover any spending they felt like with the revenue.

I wonder what man city's real turnover is? what would their turnover be without the massively fluffed up commercial deals, and development dodges. They get a decent whack from their league position, and from being in the Cl. Their gate money isn't any bigger than ours, and as John Henry put it "I wonder what the second bid was" when discussing their commercial deals. with these commercial deals, they can maybe possibly start to think about squeezing into FFP.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2013, 11:11:55 am »
I've never denied that probably the main attraction of the Sheikh owning City was the ability to promote Abu Dhabi and part of that is that major AD-based companies like Etihad and Aabar have the chance to promote themselves globally. Are they not allowed to do that?

not if they're paying a lot more than the second highest bidder. Emirates can sponsor whoever they want, but paying more to man city than Arsenal is commercial nonsense.

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Sports sponsorship is an excellent way of promoting your brand and a leading club in the PL offers one of the best opportunities for doing that. Look at your own official partners. Ramsey (a Turkish owned menswear chain) don't have a shop in Liverpool One. Maxxis (a Taiwanese based tyre supplier) don't have their main logistics centre on Edge Lane as far as I'm aware. These companies pay to get their name seen around the world by people who watch the PL, European competitions (and any other sporting events they're involved in). There's no question that Etihad's involvement in F1 and football has had a major impact on their level of brand awareness (plus they have a major operation based in Manchester).

yes, but it still comes back to how much money you have paid for the exposure. And we know that being in the premier league is a great way of promoting your brand. The Abu dhabi royal family have been polishing their reputation as smiling santa clauses in the world media, while everyone ignores their crushing of democratic dissent, their use of torture, and their modern slave economy, and their exploitation of pakistanis and bangladeshis. 

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2013, 11:39:00 am »
I wonder what man city's real turnover is? what would their turnover be without the massively fluffed up commercial deals, and development dodges. They get a decent whack from their league position, and from being in the Cl. Their gate money isn't any bigger than ours, and as John Henry put it "I wonder what the second bid was" when discussing their commercial deals. with these commercial deals, they can maybe possibly start to think about squeezing into FFP.
I reckon the revenue from Abu Dhabi companies is around £60m tops. But I don't know for sure and certainly you don't so you've no idea whether they're fluffed up or not. But even if it is £60m, our turnover without those deals would still be higher than yours. But as I've said, it's companies who want to promote themselves globally as part of a strategic plan, so there's no reason to exclude them.

As for the development "dodges" they include a state of the art training complex to replace one we currently lease, which wasn't fit for purpose 5 years ago. There's the only Sixth Form college in the area which will benefit local residents as well as our own young players plus other community leisure facilities. That won't bring in much revenue but it will benefit a hugely deprived area. It's already seen remediation of land which was toxic, having previously hosted a chemical works and a colliery. Anyone who has been to The Etihad will know it's a pretty grim area round there, at least as bad as anything you'll see in the worst parts of Liverpool. Unlike Anfield, it was an area based on industry and unemployment and deprivation are high.

Phase 2 will involve ground expansion (which won't involve blighting the lives of local residents as you've been accused of) and will obviously bring in revenue. That's hardly a "dodge". Phase 3 will involve commercial and leisure developments on the "collar" site around the stadium, which I assume will bring in revenue in time. I also understand that our owners are talking to the council about how to develop the Holt Town area between the campus and the city centre.

So these "dodges" should actually benefit the local economy and residents hugely. Plus, as someone on here pointed out a while ago, we will only be able to write off the depreciation, not the outright capital cost. If we spend £150m and write it off over a minimum 50 years, it benefits us to the tune of a mere £3m a year, maximum. It's a licence to print money.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2013, 11:48:33 am »
I've never denied that probably the main attraction of the Sheikh owning City was the ability to promote Abu Dhabi and part of that is that major AD-based companies like Etihad and Aabar have the chance to promote themselves globally. Are they not allowed to do that?

Sports sponsorship is an excellent way of promoting your brand and a leading club in the PL offers one of the best opportunities for doing that. Look at your own official partners. Ramsey (a Turkish owned menswear chain) don't have a shop in Liverpool One. Maxxis (a Taiwanese based tyre supplier) don't have their main logistics centre on Edge Lane as far as I'm aware. These companies pay to get their name seen around the world by people who watch the PL, European competitions (and any other sporting events they're involved in). There's no question that Etihad's involvement in F1 and football has had a major impact on their level of brand awareness (plus they have a major operation based in Manchester).

Warrior paid you far more than an established supplier thought you were worth to get a foothold in the football market. They may even make a loss on the deal as the terms are so heavily weighted in your favour but presumably they've calculated that the knock-on effect will make it worthwhile. Good for you and good for them if it comes off.

So while we've created a new model I totally refute the idea that we've stretched, let alone broken, any rules.

As for your point about Real Madrid, that's got nothing to do with FFP per se.

I'm not talking about sponsorship, which is an accepted fact in the game. I'm talking about sums of money changing hands between the Emirati, which unfortunately cannot be proven. And there being no "due process" in the bidding. So suddenly Man City are a bigger brand than Man United and Liverpool? I don't think so somehow.

Now the morals aside, it is true to say clubs like Chelsea, Man City and maybe now Spurs have to buy their way to the top table and maybe FFP tries to prevent them from doing this. Revenue = Expenditure(ish) is a formula that favours the old school big clubs, with the biggest grounds, and commercial potential.

Just don't try telling me that City haven't played clever with the rules, having just spent £90 million + on players, to add luxury to the most expensive squad already in Premier League history.

I don't actually begrudge City fans, but be accurate about what is going on please.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2013, 11:51:53 am »
I reckon the revenue from Abu Dhabi companies is around £60m tops. But I don't know for sure and certainly you don't so you've no idea whether they're fluffed up or not. But even if it is £60m, our turnover without those deals would still be higher than yours. But as I've said, it's companies who want to promote themselves globally as part of a strategic plan, so there's no reason to exclude them.

no, but they're still supposed to pay market rates. You mentioned the Warrior kit deal earlier, but what you didn't take into account is that part of the reason that our kit deal is so big is because we're one of the top four kit sellers in the world. There is a commercial reason for them to pay a lot of money 

Quote
As for the development "dodges" they include a state of the art training complex to replace one we currently lease, which wasn't fit for purpose 5 years ago. There's the only Sixth Form college in the area which will benefit local residents as well as our own young players plus other community leisure facilities. That won't bring in much revenue but it will benefit a hugely deprived area. It's already seen remediation of land which was toxic, having previously hosted a chemical works and a colliery. Anyone who has been to The Etihad will know it's a pretty grim area round there, at least as bad as anything you'll see in the worst parts of Liverpool. Unlike Anfield, it was an area based on industry and unemployment and deprivation are high.

Phase 2 will involve ground expansion (which won't involve blighting the lives of local residents as you've been accused of) and will obviously bring in revenue. That's hardly a "dodge". Phase 3 will involve commercial and leisure developments on the "collar" site around the stadium, which I assume will bring in revenue in time. I also understand that our owners are talking to the council about how to develop the Holt Town area between the campus and the city centre.

So these "dodges" should actually benefit the local economy and residents hugely. Plus, as someone on here pointed out a while ago, we will only be able to write off the depreciation, not the outright capital cost. If we spend £150m and write it off over a minimum 50 years, it benefits us to the tune of a mere £3m a year, maximum. It's a licence to print money.

but the money is soaked in blood, the screams of the tortured, and the sweat of slaves, and the tears of rape victims who will be punished if they report their attack. The 'Urban regeneration' may benefit part of manchester, but it is still part of a cynical reputation laundering exercise, to make some very unpleasant people look good. And you're a paying cheerleader. 

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2013, 12:04:10 pm »
There is a commercial reason for them to pay a lot of money 

And we had options. We could have got a similar sized deal from several over manufacturers.

The Man City sponsorships are not commercial deals, they are a mechanism to pump money into the club that pays no heed to market rates. Do you honestly think that an unconnected entity would pay anything close to those levels to sponsor City. It is impossible to prove, but it stinks.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2013, 12:19:32 pm »
but the money is soaked in blood, the screams of the tortured, and the sweat of slaves, and the tears of rape victims who will be punished if they report their attack. The 'Urban regeneration' may benefit part of manchester, but it is still part of a cynical reputation laundering exercise, to make some very unpleasant people look good. And you're a paying cheerleader.
This is nothing to do with FFP. You wear the name of a money launderer on your shirt who has admitted doing business with far worse regimes so give it a rest eh? And, as I've already said, the exposure that owning City gives them, makes any human rights issues in Abu Dhabi far more visible and therefore more liable to be corrected. If they kept to themselves, no one would know and no one would care.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 12:21:04 pm by ManchesterBlue »

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2013, 12:19:50 pm »
If you look at what the kit manufacturers are paying, you can see Man City's true value

They signed a 6 year deal recently worth £12 million a season with Nike

Clubs like United, Madrid, Liverpool, Arsenal etc are all receiving £25 million or more a season from their kit manufacturers

Why can't the neutral kit manufacturers not see the value in paying City what the top clubs get, like the UAE based companies do in their sponsorship deals?
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2013, 12:30:24 pm »
If you look at what the kit manufacturers are paying, you can see Man City's true value

They signed a 6 year deal recently worth £12 million a season with Nike

Clubs like United, Madrid, Liverpool, Arsenal etc are all receiving £25 million or more a season from their kit manufacturers

Why can't the neutral kit manufacturers not see the value in paying City what the top clubs get, like the UAE based companies do in their sponsorship deals?
You're confusing two things. I've no problem in admitting we won't sell as many shirts as the clubs you mention aso that will presumably determine the value of the Nike deal (although there is, I understand, a lot more to that deal than the flat figure reported). Neither you nor I know what the Abu Dhabi companies pay but the question is what's it worth to them to have the exposure. That's far more subjective and you can't apply the same logic.


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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2013, 12:35:37 pm »
I think you can

Why are the UAE companies willing to pay City as much as, and in some cases more than the very top Clubs in the world get when unrelated companies only pay the market rate?

Nobody is saying they can't sponsor City and that it isn't good for them, just why don't the UAE companies pay City's market rate?
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2013, 12:42:28 pm »
no, but they're still supposed to pay market rates. You mentioned the Warrior kit deal earlier, but what you didn't take into account is that part of the reason that our kit deal is so big is because we're one of the top four kit sellers in the world. There is a commercial reason for them to pay a lot of money 

They only have to be "fair value" if the two parties are classed as related parties. That's an accounting definition that's been used for many years and the fact is that Manchester City and Etihad are NOT related parties under the rules set out by the Accounting bodies and adopted by UEFA and the PL. If they were, it would have been declared in the accounts and it hasn't.


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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2013, 12:42:39 pm »
This is nothing to do with FFP. You wear the name of a money launderer on your shirt who has admitted doing business with far worse regimes so give it a rest eh? And, as I've already said, the exposure that owning City gives them, makes any human rights issues in Abu Dhabi far more visible and therefore more liable to be corrected. If they kept to themselves, no one would know and no one would care.

good god. Sure Standard Chartered have done some dodgy things, moving some money for some unpleasant people, but that is what banks do, and why I wasn't happy when we got a bank on our shirt. But you're trying to equate this with being the plaything of tyrants. It's not the same thing, and i don't like either one, so you can't use that argument against me. 

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2013, 12:44:10 pm »
I think you can

Why are the UAE companies willing to pay City as much as, and in some cases more than the very top Clubs in the world get when unrelated companies only pay the market rate?

Nobody is saying they can't sponsor City and that it isn't good for them, just why don't the UAE companies pay City's market rate?
Tell me what they pay because I've no idea and it's never been publicly reported. So please enlighten me.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2013, 12:44:50 pm »
good god. Sure Standard Chartered have done some dodgy things, moving some money for some unpleasant people, but that is what banks do, and why I wasn't happy when we got a bank on our shirt. But you're trying to equate this with being the plaything of tyrants. It's not the same thing, and i don't like either one, so you can't use that argument against me.
I can and I have.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2013, 12:51:42 pm »
I can and I have.

No you can't. You see the thing is that i think that taking money from a bank is wrong. Therefore you can't use it as a moral argument against me. And while I'm unhappy about this, because I think that Banks are an unpleasant blight on the global economy and a vehicle for social inequality, It's not remotely on the same f*cking planet as taking huge amounts of money from medievalist islamic fundamentalist Oil Kings.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:06:56 pm by RedHopper »

Offline TitanTrigger

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2013, 12:54:02 pm »
You're confusing two things. I've no problem in admitting we won't sell as many shirts as the clubs you mention aso that will presumably determine the value of the Nike deal (although there is, I understand, a lot more to that deal than the flat figure reported). Neither you nor I know what the Abu Dhabi companies pay but the question is what's it worth to them to have the exposure. That's far more subjective and you can't apply the same logic.

You absolutely can apply the same logic, why have these supposedly independent companies paid Man City so much for sponsorship when they could have gone to United and paid the same price for sponsorship but be associated with a truly global club. You are assuming that only Man City can provide the exposure that the premier league provides, this is clearly not true.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2013, 12:58:04 pm »
Tell me what they pay because I've no idea and it's never been publicly reported. So please enlighten me.

I'm not going to trawl the internet because you are being obtuse

City are getting the majority of their cash from middle east sponsorships thats how they are trying to pass FFP, you know this very well, why do you feel the need to try and legitimise your income? Does it really matter?

If clubs like United, Liverpool and Arsenal struggle to pay the sort of transfer fees and wages City pay, how do you really expect to fund it yourselves?
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2013, 01:05:35 pm »
No you can't. You see the thing is that i think that taking money from a bank is wrong. Therefore you can't use it as a moral argument against me. And while I'm unhappy about this, because I think that Banks are an unpleasant blight on the global economy and a vehicle for social inequality, It's not remotely on the same fucking planet as taking huge amounts of money from medievalist islamic fundamentalist Oil Kings.
fukin hell hopper mate, take it easy.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2013, 01:13:08 pm »
oops, I see i accidentally left in an unedited swear word. can you edit in the change for the quote. i don't want the page to trigger anyone's filters at work.

manchester blue's continued equating of a sponsorship deal with a bank, with a sugar daddy relationship with a tyrannical family is absolutely infuriating, and an insult to the intelligence of football fans everywhere. If he wants to enjoy the pretty football, he should at least admit that he doesn't care that the money is dirty, or that his club is being used to make vile people look good. He's happy and that's all that matters.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2013, 02:31:29 pm »
oops, I see i accidentally left in an unedited swear word. can you edit in the change for the quote. i don't want the page to trigger anyone's filters at work.

manchester blue's continued equating of a sponsorship deal with a bank, with a sugar daddy relationship with a tyrannical family is absolutely infuriating, and an insult to the intelligence of football fans everywhere. If he wants to enjoy the pretty football, he should at least admit that he doesn't care that the money is dirty, or that his club is being used to make vile people look good. He's happy and that's all that matters.
You're defending your club and I'm defending mine. I've said on here that I do care about human rights in Abu Dhabi. So what would you like me to do? Set myself on fire in front of the stadium?

I'm guessing from your location that you're not a regular match-goer and I'd say the others who've been most vocal aren't either.  I don't know one single City fan who has stopped going in protest against Abu Dhabi and that includes the many Jewish fans, including (I think) 3 of our honorary Life & Vice Presidents. I go to matches to watch football and meet my mates. It's never bothered me what league we're in, who the manager is or who owns us, although I'll have an opinion on all of those. I've also said there would be a line I wouldn't cross but I freely admit that Abu Dhabi isn't it. I had more moral qualms about Shinawatra but I mostly still went.

I'd also say that if DIC took you over,  not one match going Liverpool fan would stop going. It's very easy to be moral from your armchair but when going to matches home and away for 30 or 40 years has been your habit,  it takes something pretty bad to stop that.

Now can we get back to FFP?

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2013, 02:37:51 pm »

Do you honestly believe that City's UAE sponsorship deals are all fair value and not a way of bypassing the FFP?
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