Topic: SSN - Rafa to Juventus in summer?

[bleedsred1978]

the point is if we were able to beat the teams we should we would have been much more successful in this time period.

Well Man Utd/Real Madrid should have beaten us with the players they had last season but they didnt. Explain?

Teams you should beat dont get out of the way for you and make it easy. If anything its a mark of respect that they park the bus.

[Walshy nMe®]

Fuck me, one bad half season

Exactly.

I don't give a shit who says I am wrong, cos I know I am not, but there weren't that many if any calling for his head come May last year.

6 months down the line and we are the worst team some have ever seen and we have the worst manager in the league.  It is shocking.

[stoa]

Saw these comments on TIA and sums it up for me. Anyone who believes he should be given another year is seriously deluded. I'll support him until the end of the season and he has that guaranteed 4th place. If he doesn't deliver then that is it...he can go. Too many on here blame all our ills on the owners. Yet Rafa can't do a thing wrong. He has definitely made mistakes and more importantly, apart from being turgid stuff, his style of football will never win the PL. He could do this back in Spain or Italy, but not here...

Are the lines in the rest of your post the comments that convinced you that Rafa should go? If so, YOU'RE the one who's seriously deluded.

personally i think benitez will never win the league with us. not unless he is given a stupid amount of money to spend (100m+) but then i'd say that most managers could win the league with us if they had that much.

The thing is we have fuck all money to spend and if Rafa was given enough money (comparable to what the Mancs, Chelsea or others have been able to spend on individual players in recent seasons) our squad would be much better. The problem was that while he might not have spent little he had to start from scratch buying both quality and squad players with money that teams like Chelsea or the Mancs spend on one or two players. And the question isn't whether any other manager could win the league with tons of millions to spend on player, but whether there is a manager who could win the league spending as little as Rafa has been able to spend while rebuilding the squad. I doubt that...

last season provides very little proof to me that he can mount a serious title challenge.

Little proof? We did the double over the Mancs and Chelsea, absolutely twatted Real Madrid at home, twatted a good few of the other teams in the league, spent some time at the top of the table and were in the mix for quite a long time. Add to that that our points total was impressive. To me that suggests that we were able to match the top teams in the league over the course of the season, but ended up getting beaten by the Mancs for first place. It happens.

last season was the best opportunity lfc had to win the league in at least the last 10 years i reckon. arsenal and chelsea had poor seasons by their standards and were never in it. only man utd were our real competitors.

Nobody is denying that, but then again 90 points would suggest that the Mancs had quite a successful season and it only takes on team to do better to come in second. We beat both Chelsea and Arsenal for second place, so I don't really see a point there, if you simply have to acknowledge that the Mancs got more points over the course of the season. I think there would have been a point in the argument had the Mancs won the league with 75 or 80 points, but they more or less did like the champions had done the seasons before.

and here's the thing about man utd last year. they had absolutely everything against them but still win. they shouldn't have won it based on the massive amount of games they ended up playing. they reached the final of every single competition they were elgible for except the fa cup for which they reached the semis. last season they could have only possibly played one extra game in their whole season.

Yeah, the poor, poor Mancs have played loads of games and had everything against them. No matter, if they got constantly got help from the refs and vital decisions going their way whenever they needed it. The Spurs-penalty is only one incident in a long row not even counting the times the ladybody got away with some blatant kicking out.

then benitez goes on his fact finding mission and we collapse. that wasn't the cause of our collapse but it was a totally stupid and uneccessary thing to do. people say it was to deflect from the stuff that was happening with gerrard. but that had all started to die down anyway and no one was really reporting it. it would have kicked off again during the trial but thats what happened anyway. a pointless thing to do that embarrased us to be honest.

I still have to see any plausible facts that show a connection between Rafa's "rant" and us dropping points. Say whatever you want about his "facts"-speech, but simply claiming it cost us the title is bollocks. Just because both happened at roughly the same time, doesn't mean that one caused the other.

the frustrating thing is when benitez released the shackles we showed what we are capable of. but i always knew that come a new season benitez would revert back to his old ways and lo and behold we are pretty much out of the title race again and struggling for 4th.

Again that's a very funny thing about "releasing the shackles". I haven't seen anything that would suggest that any shackles were released when we've twatted teams left, right and centre last season. I'd say it was more down to a team being in full flow, playing with confidence and simply everything going our way. We didn't twat the Mancs at their place (or Real Madrid for that matter), because shackles were released. We did so, because our players were doing very well and the tactics worked. We were still very solid at the back and basically took every chance we got. Same goes for some of the other games like Villa at home. It simply all went our way and we were very effective. I don't see much difference this season in the way we're approaching games. We play almost the same players, have the same tactics and the only thing that's not working is that 1.we've had to replace one of our most important players who made the team tick, 2.we've had terrible luck with injuries and 3.at times had things going very badly against us with the confidence already being low. Rafa has made some mistakes (it would be impossible to say he didn't when you look at our season so far), but he certainly hasn't put on any shackles that had been released last season.

[rutlandred]

Exactly.

I don't give a shit who says I am wrong, cos I know I am not, but there weren't that many if any calling for his head come May last year.

6 months down the line and we are the worst team some have ever seen and we have the worst manager in the league.  It is shocking.

Shocking, disappointing and most of all upsetting.

[Liverbird 2010]

Yes, we've played some shit football.

See its not wrong to admit it, is it? No need to get your knickers in a twist over me saying the same thing.

[koptommy93]

Well Man Utd/Real Madrid should have beaten us with the players they had last season but they didnt. Explain?

Teams you should beat dont get out of the way for you and make it easy. If anything its a mark of respect that they park the bus.

If they do sit back and defend we dont have a way to break them down on many ocassions

[bleedsred1978]

If they do sit back and defend we dont have a way to break them down on many ocassions

Which is where your 25/30 million pounds strikers/forward players come in. Of which we have bought one. The others have more than one.

Simple as that really.

[koptommy93]

Which is where your 25/30 million pounds strikers/forward players come in. Of which we have bought one. The others have more than one.

Simple as that really.

Suppose so

[Mr Premier League]

The thought of losing Rafa makes me feel sick.

I don't appreciate the dance he is doing though based on the support we have given him.

[The Nihilists]

See its not wrong to admit it, is it? No need to get your knickers in a twist over me saying the same thing.

No, we're saying very different things.

[Joe Rogans Chin]

I don't appreciate the dance he is doing though based on the support we have given him.

Why, it's obvious it's the main thing keeping him here?
That and actally managing a football club, transfers and youth policy, he won't get that in Italy or back in Spain.

[Liverbird 2010]

No, we're saying very different things.

Listen mate everyone blames the owners (I hate them with a passion)and they are mostly to blame, people blame the players, the media, the fans, but some people will just not put one ounce of blame on Rafa, but guess what he is to blame sometimes. 
To say he is not is ridicules he gets things wrong he's human, we all make wrong decisions.

[bleedsred1978]

Suppose so

Dont get me wrong though. I do undertsand where your coming from and the frustration but scoring goals is the hardest thing in football as we know and its where quality really makes a difference.

The so called lesser teams are some of the toughest nuts to crack. Ive seen us dominate games but not score when we have add the chances and pay for it late on.

We need a quality cutting edge and after that we really dont have a whole lot wrong with the current squad. Rafa's tactical ability is second to none but when teams just dig in we are always going to struggle if we dont have enough match winners on the pitch.

Two 20 million pound strikers and we would be in a much better position. Even this season when we have been on the whole pretty rubbish.

[koptommy93]

The thought of losing Rafa makes me feel sick.

I don't appreciate the dance he is doing though based on the support we have given him.

I was expecting him to be more dismissive of the interest. Espicially as Juve are in a worse predicament than as us at at the minute

[DonkeyWan]

See its not wrong to admit it, is it? No need to get your knickers in a twist over me saying the same thing.

See the point? Way, way, way over there? Almost out of sight? You missed it.

[DonkeyWan]

I was expecting him to be more dismissive of the interest. Espicially as Juve are in a worse predicament than as us at at the minute

I think he's keeping he's options open. Which is fair enough in my opinion.

[stroller]

If they do sit back and defend we dont have a way to break them down on many ocassions

We certainly don't need tons of investment or a new stadium to not be beating mediocre teams for the last 6 years. The solution? A new 4 year €20 million contract and our rivals in fits of hysterical laughter.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

We certainly don't need tons of investment or a new stadium to not be beating mediocre teams for the last 6 years. The solution? A new 4 year €20 million contract and our rivals in fits of hysterical laughter.

As usual, the truth comes out - scared of people laughing at him because Liverpool aren't very good.

[The Nihilists]

Listen mate everyone blames the owners (I hate them with a passion)and they are mostly to blame, people blame the players, the media, the fans, but some people will just not put one ounce of blame on Rafa, but guess what he is to blame sometimes. 
To say he is not is ridicules he gets things wrong he's human, we all make wrong decisions.

Of course he does. So GET THE FUCK OVER IT! Shanks made mistakes, Bob made mistakes, Kenny made mistakes. We were mid-table at the halfway point in a number of seasons during our greatest years.

They weren't hounded out because of it. And they didn't have to manage the club with a couple of plums running the place and taking money out, rather than putting it in.

Spurs are above us in the table. Why?

Perhaps because their squad costs about £60m more than ours, and therefore has more depth to it. Perhaps because they back their managers in the transfer market?

But what have we got over Spurs, aside from having won the title 20 years ago as opposed to 40/50 years ago?

We have Gerrard and Torres. A team like Spurs can't get close to talent like this. Except, we don't really have Gerrard and Torres this season, as both have had constant injury problems.

We also have Reina, Mascherano and Johnson.

Except Johnson's been out for a while, and Mascherano had his head fucked by Barca in the summer, and was back-and-forth to Argentina for their nightmare World Cup qualifying campaign. I suppose that was Rafa's fault? Why did we start the season so badly? Because we were letting in goals, not because we weren't scoring them. Masch Headfuck + rookie defenders = goals against.

Agger's a pretty special player. But lots of injuries. Yossi is a little gem - again, now he's injured.

We no longer have Alonso, but we have Aquilani - who could be very special over the next five years. But talk about a baptism of fire. I'm sure had Rafa known his job would be on the line after six months of the season, he'd have bought somebody ready to play instantly. But more fool him for thinking about the future of the club.

With all that in mind, and the other injuries we've had, then surely Rafa must be doing a heck of a lot right to have us within three points of a club that spends more and has owners who back the manager?

Shit football? Yeah, so what. Hell, it even happened to Arsenal last season. When you're scrapping for your future, it's hard to be pretty.

But the more teams that overtake us with spending, the more we'll be like Everton - a traditionally big club that has had to change its ambitions because it cannot compete with wealthier outfits. One day Liverpool fans will wake up to this fact.

[Mr Premier League]

Why, it's obvious it's the main thing keeping him here?
That and actally managing a football club, transfers and youth policy, he won't get that in Italy or back in Spain.

As koptommy93, I was expecting him to be more dismissive. I love Rafa, I have always loved Rafa and won't hear a bad word said about him, but I just don't think the fans that have supported him through thick and thin deserve to be left wondering 'will he or won't he go'. His lack of decisiveness on the issue makes me think that he will leave if we don't get 4th, and the Americans will be happy for him to go if that is the case. He'd look pretty stupid to say now that he is staying at Liverpool only to go to Juve at the end of the season. That's why I worry, and it will break my heart of this is the case, but I have no doubt there is some kind of aggreement between the owners and Rafa based on him getting 4th.

[DonkeyWan]

Of course he does. So GET THE FUCK OVER IT! Shanks made mistakes, Bob made mistakes, Kenny made mistakes. We were mid-table at the halfway point in a number of seasons during our greatest years.

Don't bother, half of these are wums and the rest are happy to be ignorant.

[vicgill]

The thought of losing Rafa makes me feel sick.

I don't appreciate the dance he is doing though based on the support we have given him.

1.. makes me sick too.

2...but that made me laugh, granted the support shown for the Spurs game was terrific but it needs to be continued, I hoped it wouldn't be a one off. I for one wouldn't blame him if he left for Juventus, IMHO I think it will be Madrid in the summer, who come calling for his services.

[TSC]

GET THE FUCK OVER IT!

This internet thingys great isn't it?  You get to shout and swear at random strangers from behind yer keyboard.

[The Nihilists]

Don't bother, half of these are wums and the rest are happy to be ignorant.

I know, I know. But if we don't bother, the place will be overrun with them.

[The Nihilists]

This internet thingys great isn't it?  You get to shout and swear at random strangers from behind yer keyboard.

Well, if people are going to act like Rafa is the only manager to ever make mistakes, and that all he does is make mistakes, then of course some people will get agitated.

[Stevie-G]

As koptommy93, I was expecting him to be more dismissive. I love Rafa, I have always loved Rafa and won't hear a bad word said about him, but I just don't think the fans that have supported him through thick and thin deserve to be left wondering 'will he or won't he go'.

Always been his style though, mate. Remember this from more then 2 years ago?

You said after the story linking you with Bayern Munich that you were happy to stay here for a long time, is that still the case?
As always I am focused on training and coaching my team.

So, what you're saying suggests that perhaps the future here is in question?
I am focused on training and coaching my team.

[walshys_mullet]

Of course he does. So GET THE FUCK OVER IT! Shanks made mistakes, Bob made mistakes, Kenny made mistakes. We were mid-table at the halfway point in a number of seasons during our greatest years.

They weren't hounded out because of it. And they didn't have to manage the club with a couple of plums running the place and taking money out, rather than putting it in.

Spurs are above us in the table. Why?

Perhaps because their squad costs about £60m more than ours, and therefore has more depth to it. Perhaps because they back their managers in the transfer market?

But what have we got over Spurs, aside from having won the title 20 years ago as opposed to 40/50 years ago?

We have Gerrard and Torres. A team like Spurs can't get close to talent like this. Except, we don't really have Gerrard and Torres this season, as both have had constant injury problems.

We also have Reina, Mascherano and Johnson.

Except Johnson's been out for a while, and Mascherano had his head fucked by Barca in the summer, and was back-and-forth to Argentina for their nightmare World Cup qualifying campaign. I suppose that was Rafa's fault? Why did we start the season so badly? Because we were letting in goals, not because we weren't scoring them. Masch Headfuck + rookie defenders = goals against.

Agger's a pretty special player. But lots of injuries. Yossi is a little gem - again, now he's injured.

We no longer have Alonso, but we have Aquilani - who could be very special over the next five years. But talk about a baptism of fire. I'm sure had Rafa known his job would be on the line after six months of the season, he'd have bought somebody ready to play instantly. But more fool him for thinking about the future of the club.

With all that in mind, and the other injuries we've had, then surely Rafa must be doing a heck of a lot right to have us within three points of a club that spends more and has owners who back the manager?

Shit football? Yeah, so what. Hell, it even happened to Arsenal last season. When you're scrapping for your future, it's hard to be pretty.

But the more teams that overtake us with spending, the more we'll be like Everton - a traditionally big club that has had to change its ambitions because it cannot compete with wealthier outfits. One day Liverpool fans will wake up to this fact.

managers do make mistakes even the greats. However that isnt what overly worries me at this point in time.

What worries me is that we have shown so far no indication of turning this season around. its not so much the results is it? if you could see a pattern to our play, if you could see that we have some kind of gameplan, if you could see us improving our setpieces and passing game then there would be cause for optimisim and we would no that we could get out of our current predicament.

but i dont see that, and ive hardly seen any shoots of recovery this season.

Now why is that?

I believe its deeper. Yeah its problems with owners, financial and instability but for me theres a problem with the manager and the main man. I think Stevie and Rafa are pulling in different directions, but the team has no direction. When a professional football team of 11 players cannot pass a ball in any consistent manner, cannot cross a corner or cannot defend a setpiece consistently theres something rotten in the team. And Rafa has not been able to turn it around for whatever reason.

We go into todays game and we couldnt call it. At home to Bolton. Theres no confidence in the team by half the fans, im guessing theres no confidence in the manager from certain influential players and the whole world is waiting/willing for us to implode.

Unless teh manager and players start producing, the way we know we can this thing will continue to spiral out of control.

gerrard needs to buck up and stop whinging.

Carra needs to find some form.

Kuyt nees to score more.

And Rafa needs to start being the smart manager we know he can be, or even trying a different tact, let the shackles off, whatever.

And it needs to start today at 3pm.

[vicgill]

Of course he does. So GET THE FUCK OVER IT! Shanks made mistakes, Bob made mistakes, Kenny made mistakes. We were mid-table at the halfway point in a number of seasons during our greatest years.

They weren't hounded out because of it. And they didn't have to manage the club with a couple of plums running the place and taking money out, rather than putting it in.

Spurs are above us in the table. Why?

Perhaps because their squad costs about £60m more than ours, and therefore has more depth to it. Perhaps because they back their managers in the transfer market?

But what have we got over Spurs, aside from having won the title 20 years ago as opposed to 40/50 years ago?

We have Gerrard and Torres. A team like Spurs can't get close to talent like this. Except, we don't really have Gerrard and Torres this season, as both have had constant injury problems.

We also have Reina, Mascherano and Johnson.

Except Johnson's been out for a while, and Mascherano had his head fucked by Barca in the summer, and was back-and-forth to Argentina for their nightmare World Cup qualifying campaign. I suppose that was Rafa's fault? Why did we start the season so badly? Because we were letting in goals, not because we weren't scoring them. Masch Headfuck + rookie defenders = goals against.

Agger's a pretty special player. But lots of injuries. Yossi is a little gem - again, now he's injured.

We no longer have Alonso, but we have Aquilani - who could be very special over the next five years. But talk about a baptism of fire. I'm sure had Rafa known his job would be on the line after six months of the season, he'd have bought somebody ready to play instantly. But more fool him for thinking about the future of the club.

With all that in mind, and the other injuries we've had, then surely Rafa must be doing a heck of a lot right to have us within three points of a club that spends more and has owners who back the manager?

Shit football? Yeah, so what. Hell, it even happened to Arsenal last season. When you're scrapping for your future, it's hard to be pretty.

But the more teams that overtake us with spending, the more we'll be like Everton - a traditionally big club that has had to change its ambitions because it cannot compete with wealthier outfits. One day Liverpool fans will wake up to this fact.

Great post mate and that last paragraph frightens the life out of me

[LFC when it suits]

All managers make mistakes. Great managers learn from their mistakes.

[buzzing]

Thought of losing rafa should be a worry...he cares about the whole club. A new guy may not give a shite

That being said, I really get the feeling Rafa himself doesn't know what to do at the mo. Yes it's only a bad 7 months months but he seems tactically lost. It's not like we're playing well/correctly and not getting the luck. We're just poor. We raise our game against united but that's it

In a ideal world rafa would stop being cautious and stop worrying about other teams and just let us play

[TimHocks]

Great post mate and that last paragraph frightens the life out of me

Agreed.  I've been saying this for a while - if you forget our history and our culture and just look at the club in terms of stadium, budget etc. we're not that much different from Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Leeds, Tottenham etc. in size and it is not mad for expectations to be on a par with them.

[walshys_mullet]

Thought of losing rafa should be a worry...he cares about the whole club. A new guy may not give a shite

That being said, I really get the feeling Rafa himself doesn't know what to do at the mo. Yes it's only a bad 7 months months but he seems tactically lost. It's not like we're playing well/correctly and not getting the luck. We're just poor. We raise our game against united but that's it

In a ideal world rafa would stop being cautious and stop worrying about other teams and just let us play

And ill be honest mate i think thats the ONLY way to get us out of this slump. Being cautious is counter productive. We need a few decent wins under our belt we some decent performances.

[TSC]

Well, if people are going to act like Rafa is the only manager to ever make mistakes, and that all he does is make mistakes, then of course some people will get agitated.

It's all about opinions and it's only the net.  We've all been guilty of losing it a bit over different opinions I suppose.  Anyway, i'm off to the game.  I'd advise you to avoid the post game thread if we don't win!

[GBF]

if he doesnt get the team in the top 4, then he is a Juve manager for next season

[Alan_X]

He's not going now so let's come back to this in the summer. Everything I've read so far is supposition and conjecture.

Unless anyone has any details of a pre-contract agreement between Juve and Rafa - locked...