Author Topic: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich  (Read 23410 times)

Offline Hinesy

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round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« on: October 22, 2011, 11:04:20 pm »
hmmm...
over the last decade particularly, I've found myself and other reds saying "One day we'll reallly hammer someone". But its usually spouted when we do the opposite. Play well and draw. We did it last week and could've won it in the last minute, and the same for this week. That's the positives I'll take from this, but the negative is that the frustration that builds up in the early stages of a season is there and real. We ought to beat Norwich and could've and its the 6th home game that we've been unable to keep a clean sheet.

For me the main thing is that without 2 up front, and Luis S doing his tricky running around the perimeter of the box, it frequently means we don't have any natural target in the box and time and time again yesterday and last week, we were found lacking in the opponents area.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 01:40:15 pm by hinesy »
Yep.

Offline StevenLFC

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2011, 11:27:45 pm »
I was really dissapointed with our lack of pressing today, we really missed Lucas. As soon as they put another big fella up front and went 'Sunday League' on us, we crumbled. First half we dominated, but we are missing so many chances, and when you do that, you get punished. The goal we conceded was poor, I'm rarely critical of Pepe Reina but he was nowhere near that cross. The Norwich player was marked by two defenders, Pepe didn't need to come for that ball.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 11:42:19 pm by StevenLFC »

Offline Danyaals Kop

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2011, 09:20:28 am »
We didn't miss any one in my opinion. We were just woeful at finishing.

I think 25 shots with 15 on target speak for itself. Apart from 3 or 4 saves from Ruddy - we should have been scoring for fun.

I honestly think that having Carroll, we would have got those goals.

It's often said that a game is of two halves - well against Norwich, it was a game of 5 parts. The first part being us attacking being the better team and Norwich getting adjusted to our style and used to it. This you could say was from the 0-20 mins.

The second part began after they had analyzed the way we were playing, spreading the wings and playing long balls and started to defend better while attack. This lasted 20 - 45 mins... although, in the final attack, complacency got the better of them and we scored, yet again we were lucky as the shot from Bellamy was straight at the keeper though it went into the net.

After the second half, with new instructions, we dominated them again and created a hell lot of chances, yet again Norwich studied our play, from 45-60mins.

Eventually, they realized that their 'power' would get the better of us, brought a physical player like Holt on - and got the equalizer. From then, they had a few chances and actually went to go for it, with Holt being the pivot. They came close to scoring twice and we were for the first time, really on the back foot.  60 - 80 mins.

Last part, we attacked the hell out of them and had a handful of chances. From Suarez to Carroll's last gasp header. I guess here was where we really rued our missed opportunities.



Complaints would have to be Downing. For a 18-20m player - he has not really shown his true potential till now. Bellamy was being a lot more effective than Downing has been in the past matches. He just can't really seem to beat a player or score and has not really added something special to our game, may I say it (unfortunately) like Young has done for United.

Johnson did not seem sharp in defense while good in attacking.

Reina has to take the blame of the goal for me.

Gerrard and Adam formed a brilliant partnership, sparing balls around the mark while making brilliant runs. I'm surprised at how good Adams ball control is as well.

Kuyt offered little yesterday as well.

Suarez - what a player. He can convert the smallest of spaces into the easiest of chances like the one in the second/third minute, but there is a curse somewhere. His finishing this season has been poor. I don't only say this due to a draw against fucking Norwich but also because he has missed some sitters in the previous games. Example 1 - header against Everton from two yards. Example 2 - One on One with De Gea. Example Numerous - Yesterday. Till now, he cannot finish it like Torres could or Owen.

He is much better at finding space but his end product has not been up to mark.

I also really wanted to see Carroll yesterday, from atleast 60 or 70 minutes as we had a couple of good headers which he could have finished.

Fuck, I really don't know how to state how I feel. Chance after chance like they were being presented for the hell of it. Our finishing was terrible otherwise played them off the park. This draw feels like a loss, at times worse. Next is Roy 'fucking' Hodgson's men. Remember him ? If we draw - I'll have to admit that our top four chances will start to fade because if we can't beat teams like Norwich and Stoke, how do we expect the top four. This is not neccesarily being said due to a draw against Norwich but taking everything in view.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2011, 10:10:52 am »
I think we got exactly what we deserved yesterday. Yes we did well to create so many chances, but being so wasteful is a crime and until we show that ruthless, clinical edge we wil never challenge.

The main positive I felt was that even though we had another adjusted lineup and setup, the players generally did well finding their rhythm together, even if there was some poor individual performances from the likes of Downing and Kuyt.

I didn't think the defence played that great yesterday and both Enrique and Johnson struggled to stop the rare forays that Norwich had and i dont think there can be any doubt that Reina made a mistake. I thought Adam and Gerrard did well controlling that area though.

But it was a similar story as other games but again, I think we got what we deserved.

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: Liverpool 1-1 Norwich: Full Time
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2011, 11:36:52 am »
So, I was at the game yesterday, sitting in the main stand, so i had a good view of proceedings. All told it was dispiriting and frustrating and I have left it until this morning to comment, having mulled over on the performance. Sad to say, this was (despite the numerous chances) not very good at all and a number of alarm bells were ringing for me yesterday. The chances created were down to two factors 1] the creativity of Suarez, 2] the impoverishment of Norwich who are a very poor side and will be humiliated later in the season when they tire. Suarez, I feel is a player who will miss a lot of chances, he is not as natural a finisher as Torres, his ability is to create space and room wherever he has the ball on the pitch. However, the team are already depending on him too much and if he has an off day scoring wise, no one else is prepared to step up in his place.

To describe the game yesterday, we started with a lot of possession and Suarez with his trickery and movement kept opening Norwich up. However, the rest of the team were slovenly and static and as soon as Norwich identified our gameplan they began to exploit it, getting on the ball and taking the steam out of the Liverpool attack. The main problem was the midfield. I read someone saying they were askance at Bellamy being withdrawn. I think its something you can only appreciate if you are at the game, because watching hi yesterday he was awful. Rather than operate as a LW, instead he seemed to play like a forward, rarely getting back and spending a lot of time on the last man to take advantage of the ball over the top... problem being there was no room for the ball over the top. Bellamy left Enrique cruelly exposed and had to be withdrawn before a second goal was created down his wing (where Norwich were having  a lot of joy exploiting the space he had left behind him).

In the middle of the park, the absence of Lucas was notable. As a player he covers over a lot of weaknesses in the side with his running and grafting. Without him both Gerard and in particular Adam are static and immobile. Norwich players kept dropping into the space in front and behind these two; criminally they were allowed turn and look up, giving Norwich a breather and forcing Liverpool to drop off. Only one person was trying to press the opposition, that was Kuyt, who gave his usual all action, limited ability performance. The difference when a fully fit Gerrard is in the side, Meireles was in the side or Lucas is in the side, was mobility and pressing. Its not about tackles, its about giving the opposition time on the ball to do damage. Gerrard and Adam barely pressed. Adam was utterly, utterly anemic yesterday. He offered next to nothing in the midfield yesterday and should have been subbed first for Spearing. How he managed to stay on the full game is beyond me. Off the ball he barely made a tackle, didn't press once, was always five or 10 yards away from the play and only offered himself as an outlet. On the ball he did little as well, as short pass to Gerrard or a trundling run down a blind alley. No incisive passing, dangerous play or dead eye delivery. In fact he hardly took a corner or free all day. The goal for Norwich was a result of one of those trundling runs where he knocked the ball too far ahead, fell over looking for a free, Norwich picked up the ball, played it to the wing where Bellamy was missing, 2 on 1 on Enrique (who didn't do that well yesterday, but had so few options and cover it was ridiculous) a decent delivery into the box where Reina cam and lost the ball. A litany of errors, but starting with awful play by Adam.

The defense was pretty weak yesterday as well. The nervousness of the crowd all game was evident, you always felt 2 goals were needed since we were bound to concede 1. Johnson was a mess at RB, missing tackle and balls, he was craven at time yesterday, though I suppose just being back from injury he was bound to be a little fragile mentally and physically. Carragher was bullied by two very physical forwards and it was up to Skrtel (who I thought had a splendid game) to fight for every ball. One classic moment saw Skrtel flatten one of the Norwich forwards, only for his buddy to try a sneaky charge into Skrtel's back... off of which he bounced to the ground. Skrtel just strolled forward leaving bodies strewn on the ground in his wake. He was the the strong man in the back four all day. Enrique was caught in possession too much and was slow to the ball. The problem being that his outlets were limited; Adam was hiding and Bellamy too far advanced.

The subs when they came were just odd. Bellamy was taken off (rightly I felt), Henderson came on and Downing went right.  Henderson was abysmal, running all over the pitch, chasing the ball like a brainless terrier. When Kuyt plays his effort is focused, specific to a particular role. Henderson at one point ran fully over to LB and looked up to see if he coul find himself on the right wing. He ran up front, he ran into the middle, he ran into the backline... poor discipline and football intelligence, he has a long way to go. Agger coming was inexplicable unless it was for match fitness. Downing coming off after Carroll came on was also odd. Downing hadn't a great game, but his options on the ball were so limited. Adam and Gerrard were glued to the center circle and Downing could either pass it to Johnson or hoof it into the middle where Suarez and Kuyt were surrounded by 8 players. We are, again, just not getting numbers in the box.

Overall, I think there is a schizophrenic feel to the team. Half look like they would prefer to be playing 451/433 the other half look more comfortable playing 442. Having rid the team of the Hodgson personnel, there is still definitely the shadow of Benitez hanging over the side. The key performers in the team are still from that era and still look to play in a Benitez way. It's worrying to realise that £50 million worth of players started on the bench yesterday and the others that were brought in looked so out of form yesterday. The game was akin to Stoke and Sunderland, a lot of chances but a poor result as teams take advantage of the weaknesses in the side. There could be a few more games like this this year, until Dlaglish figures out how to mould the team he has into a coherent side.... he would be helped in this by a more dynamic midfield and I feel Adam must be removed from the side asap... even if that does have the unfortunate consequence of leaving Carroll, Henderson and Adam on the bench...   
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline the 92A

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2011, 12:13:30 pm »
I think sometimes we over analyse games. It's not always about formations and tactics. Yesterday we played some excellent football and hit the woodwork at least three times, after ten minutes we could have been three up! but the final touch wasn't there for whatever reason and as every minute went on you knew the script, we've seen it before it's a feature of sides that aren't quite there yet.
 
We're building a new team and it takes time to develop the attitude that, 'no matter what happens we're good enough to win' mentality, in the seventies we didn't play wonderful football every single game but would often ground out wins, it was like we believed that no matter what happened we'd  be able to pull it back or score a late goal  like, as much as I hate to say it,  Man U do today.
 
I was as pissed off as anyone about the score but if you don't see that we're still a work in progress, that despite the fragile mentality we played some decent football, you're really missing something. It's not just the players who's mentality leaves something to be desired, the fans panic and lack of patience feeds into mood and does nothing to help turn it around at times. Can't get away from the fact that building football teams is not one linear road to glory, the ups and downs are part of the process, some good signs yesterday despite the fragility of our mentality.
 
Yesterday was about watching a good team who aren't quite there yet, they'll be more days like that, as frustrating as they are. Those who watched Shankly build his second team saw plenty of games like that, they go with the territory
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 03:02:16 pm by The 92A »
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Offline Hinesy

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2011, 01:36:35 pm »
I think sometimes we over analyse games. It's not always about formations and tactics. Yesterday we played some excellent football and hit the woodwork at least three times, after ten minutes we could have been three up! but the final touch wasn't there for whatever reason and as every minute went on you knew the script, we've seen it before it's a feature of sides that aren't quite there yet.
 



 I think that's a very good point.
Yep.

Offline No666

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2011, 02:27:54 pm »
Quote
I was as pissed off as anyone about the score but if you don't see that we're still a work in progress that, despite the fragile mentality, played some decent football, you're missing something. it's not just the players who's mentality leaves something to be desired, the fans panic and lack of patience feeds into mood and does nothing to help turn it around at times. Can't get away from the fact that building football teams is not one linear road to glory, the ups and downs are part of the process, some good signs yesterday despite the fragility of our mentality at times.
 
Yesterday was about watching a good team who aren't there yet, they'll be more days like that as frustrating as they are. Those who watched Shankly build his second team saw plenty of games like that,they go with the territory

This was wisdom in a couple of paras, too.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2011, 05:36:40 pm »
This round table is interested in
a) how should we play the front line and
b) other thoughts on the game and our current status, not which player is rubbish.
Yep.

Offline Zelnaga

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2011, 05:42:06 pm »
4-3-3 We have the players for it but whether it suits Kennys system I dont know. Our current status is, form has dipped, with the amount of money we splashed about, we shouldnt even be in this position. Sure if we would have buried our chances yesterday we wont be having this convo, but to see chances wasted when we played Sunderland, Mancs, Stoke and now Noriwch?

This isnt luck, we just cant finish our chances. I personally think its down to our DEEP DEEP defense line. Whether thats Clarke or Carraghers fault, I dont know, but something is seriously wrong when we are leaking goals.

Does Kenny know our best 11? I dont think so.

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2011, 05:44:10 pm »
This isnt luck, we just cant finish our chances. I personally think its down to our DEEP DEEP defense line. Whether thats Clarke or Carraghers fault, I dont know, but something is seriously wrong when we are leaking goals.

Finishing chances has got NOTHING to do with a deep defensive line  ???
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Offline Zelnaga

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2011, 05:49:09 pm »
Finishing chances has got NOTHING to do with a deep defensive line  ???

Didnt expand on that, and cant be arsed, but i was meant to be two separate 'faults' we have. To see Norwich defenders pushed up to the halfway line especially when we were at home? Its shocking.

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2011, 05:59:04 pm »
Didnt expand on that, and cant be arsed, but i was meant to be two separate 'faults' we have. To see Norwich defenders pushed up to the halfway line especially when we were at home? Its shocking.

It is rather shocking to be fair. Skrtel although not the most agile isnt all that slow. Carra is slow as fuck.

There needs to come a time when he is dropped for games that we need to play a higher line in. Coates has pace, as does Agger. Its not like Carra had much to do anyways so why not play one of them?
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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2011, 06:04:09 pm »

 I think that's a very good point.
While that's a valid point, still doesn't explain how we let them back into the game and were dominated for spells in the second half.  We could have done with more bodies in CM and Carra substituted, whenever we are under a bit of pressure and he goes hoof crazy it means the ball just keeps coming back to us and no doubt teams have picked up on this and always put him under pressure when he's on the ball

Offline Hinesy

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2011, 06:06:39 pm »
While that's a valid point, still doesn't explain how we let them back into the game and were dominated for spells in the second half.  We could have done with more bodies in CM and Carra substituted, whenever we are under a bit of pressure and he goes hoof crazy it means the ball just keeps coming back to us and no doubt teams have picked up on this and always put him under pressure when he's on the ball

to be fair if our strikers had done their job, Carra could've scored a hat trick of own goals and we'd have still won it.
Yep.

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2011, 06:09:18 pm »
I think the first 20 minutes yesterday was the best football we've played all season, but that's kinda the problem we have, we're playing all of our good football in short spells then retreating to our own 18 yard box and losing all composure. Yesterday was basically our default performance at home this season. Start the first 20 minutes well, drop back and try and see it out to half time at 1-0 up. Then start the second half well, miss a bunch of chances and again drop so deep that any team fancies their chances against us.

I can't really be arsed over analysing the game as in the end i think the main thing was we missed too many chances, the other point being - It's the same problems we're having week in week out. The defensive line being too deep, Carroll not being trusted, the lack of goals from wide areas.

For me, and i know it won't be popular.... we either spend big in January and buy a centre half plus a real top class striker (If Carroll is still being used sparingly) or settle for 5th or 6th, because at the moment Spurs are better than us in each and every department, whether we like it or not.
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Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2011, 06:09:23 pm »
I already did a comprehensive account of the game in the match thread (having attended the game) and so will just add a few extra thoughts here. (I've merged your post in this thread DW): hinesy

It strikes me that the midfield is where our weakness lies. When you see United versus City turning out as it did, you realise just how vital a tough-tackling, mobile, dynamic midfield is. Ours, currently, is anything but. I think looking to the front line and back line is misleading, for me its the middle that knits it together and in the middle we are sorely lacking. Neither Gerrard or Adam closed down or made enough attacking runs yesterday. It was left up to Suarez and kuyt to trick their way past 2 banks of players. That was never going to happen. Too often Adam in particular was guilty of letting his man peel off him, get on the ball and turn. We need a better pressing game. Equally, our backline suffered from over-exposure. Both the fullbacks failed to get enough support while Carragher and Skrtel were faced with players running at them far too often.

Midfield then I identify as the key problem area and its a bit of a concern that the players brought in to address those weaknesses have singularly failed to do so.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 06:55:12 pm by hinesy »
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Offline HariLFC

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2011, 06:10:18 pm »
The thing that worried me from the game, aside from the lack of clinical finishing, was how long it took us to make substitutions and when they were made, they were in my opinion the wrong ones.

To bring Carroll on so late and replace Downing, the player (admittedly who had a shocker) whose main purpose is to deliver opportunities for the big man, left me very confused.  I agree that Bellamy, whilst great going forward, left Enrique exposed and didn't do his defensive duties well enough.  I also think that despite Henderson's impact last week, I thoroughly believe that MAXI would've been the perfect choice for a match, where we were lacking midfield runners, and someone to finish off chances, both aspects of the game that Maxi offers us in abundance.

Suarez's finishing worries me slightly, as he usually gobbles up such chances and part of me is questioning whether he truly is 100% fit. 

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2011, 06:11:59 pm »
to be fair if our strikers had done their job, Carra could've scored a hat trick of own goals and we'd have still won it.

But surely the strikers job is to get the team into the lead , and the defenders job is to keep the ball out of the net?
The strikers have been doing their jobs or getting us into the lead, the defense has been failing from keeping the ball out.
Sure our strikers are missing chances , but if our defense doesn't do it's job then there is a bigger problem.

As AL 555 said it's been 24 games since we won 1-0.

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2011, 06:22:46 pm »
The thing that worried me from the game, aside from the lack of clinical finishing, was how long it took us to make substitutions and when they were made, they were in my opinion the wrong ones.

To bring Carroll on so late and replace Downing, the player (admittedly who had a shocker) whose main purpose is to deliver opportunities for the big man, left me very confused.  I agree that Bellamy, whilst great going forward, left Enrique exposed and didn't do his defensive duties well enough.  I also think that despite Henderson's impact last week, I thoroughly believe that MAXI would've been the perfect choice for a match, where we were lacking midfield runners, and someone to finish off chances, both aspects of the game that Maxi offers us in abundance.

Suarez's finishing worries me slightly, as he usually gobbles up such chances and part of me is questioning whether he truly is 100% fit.

Have to disagree here, Maxi is just as bad as the rest of them for fluffing up chances.

Henderson was the right substitution IMO

Offline steveeastend

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2011, 06:29:53 pm »
I have to say that I am really surprised on the negativity after the game and that says quite something as I think to be pretty critical when it comes to the football side of things.

I thought we were unlucky yesterday, despite our flaws which are still there (overall defending as a team, some players lacking quality). 

But the performance as a club was the first convincing one for a very long time and I was just excited to watch us play. The movement of the players to bring themselve in the right position was improved dramatically as was the tactical awerness and individual performance of some players (Adam, Gerrard).

I loved the game, and the way the players presented themselves. Would still like to see some changes but maybe this will be sorted with the competition within the squad pretty soon.

I think we are on an up, cause there is no way to create 10+ chances and being shite at the same time. Being better in playing football than your oponnent, being just good, is the basic for being successful and winning games on a constant basis, way more important than confidence or being clever.  And I saw exactly that yesterday, we were clearly better and unlucky not to win.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 06:34:58 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2011, 06:31:20 pm »
Poor use of the subs was the main point for me, very poor.
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Offline lfcforlife

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2011, 06:32:15 pm »
I think the first 20 minutes yesterday was the best football we've played all season, but that's kinda the problem we have, we're playing all of our good football in short spells then retreating to our own 18 yard box and losing all composure. Yesterday was basically our default performance at home this season. Start the first 20 minutes well, drop back and try and see it out to half time at 1-0 up. Then start the second half well, miss a bunch of chances and again drop so deep that any team fancies their chances against us.

I can't really be arsed over analysing the game as in the end i think the main thing was we missed too many chances, the other point being - It's the same problems we're having week in week out. The defensive line being too deep, Carroll not being trusted, the lack of goals from wide areas.

For me, and i know it won't be popular.... we either spend big in January and buy a centre half plus a real top class striker (If Carroll is still being used sparingly) or settle for 5th or 6th, because at the moment Spurs are better than us in each and every department, whether we like it or not.
i tink that is nail on head on all points 

Offline ALANM

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2011, 06:35:10 pm »
Thought we played really well, but some of the chances we missed beggared belief. How does Carroll not even get a header on target from 6 yards out. He should watch Holt who showed him how to head a ball. We were unfortunate on a number of occassions, but at some point we have to stop talking about bad luck and ask why aren't we scoring.

Bob Paisleys famous saying springs to mind: "If you are unsure what to do then put the ball in the net and discuss the options later".

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2011, 06:42:39 pm »
Have to disagree here, Maxi is just as bad as the rest of them for fluffing up chances.

Henderson was the right substitution IMO

I meant he's usually very useful in finishing off those chances where you simply need someone to be there, his running is very intelligent and I think he links up well with Suarez.

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2011, 06:59:24 pm »
This round table is interested in
a) how should we play the front line and
b) other thoughts on the game and our current status, not which player is rubbish.
What, no questions about a Lucas-less midfield? I think that's important. Every time Lucas is unavailable, this question will pop up and I don't think that we have a good answer for it. We have a decent shape for a three-man midfield, but what about for a two-man one?

When we play two in midfield (w/o Lucas), who should they be? I don't get it why do we persist with Adam when he doesn't have stamina to close the gaps and tends to stay forward? Gerrard put in an absolutely brilliant disciplined performance to keep everything together in the middle, which compensated to a large extent for the gaps left by Adam (especially toward the end of the game when Norwich players were just waltzing through the center). Wouldn't Henderson be a better option for such games?

I think we lost the initiative in the middle of the park for large parts of the game and we got what we deserved. Forget the missed chances, you can't beat luck, but we could have created a lot more.
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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2011, 07:02:07 pm »
The elephant in the room for me is not the number of chances we create but how many we create when we go a goal up. Yesterday at 0-0 we created a ridiculous number of chances but as soon as we went a goal up we stopped playing.

Then when we re-grouped after their equaliser we created another ridiculous number of chances, The problem is when you take the lead you need to carry on making the chances to put the game to bed or you need to see the game out.

We don't seem to be able to do either, the United game sums it up perfectly we were by far the better side for eighty minutes but crucially we were absolutely terrible for the period we held the lead. We struggled to get out of our penalty area and then as soon they equalised normal service was resumed and we ran them ragged.

Apart from the Spurs game we have pretty much dominated every game we have played this season but have only kept two clean sheets. Both of those games were against ten men.

We cannot defend crosses and corners but continually drop off and invite pressure as soon as we go ahead. We play with gusto and abandon when the game is level and then go into our shells when we go ahead. Instead of taking confidence when we score it seems to do the opposite and we become anxious and negative.

We seem to forget our defensive fragility until we have something to hold onto and then we drop ever deeper and panic. Sadly the leader at the back the one who should be ensuring we stay compact is the first one to panic and head for the sanctuary of the six yard box. Norwich's equaliser sums it up best Enrique hasn't been beaten for pace all season but we dropped off and a simple ball out wide and a regulation cross had Carra running for the six yard box.

He didn't even look where Holt was he just sprinted for the six yard box got sucked in to the near post and then back peddled furiously when he got underneath the flight of the cross. Skrtel had the near post covered and there was only one Norwich player who could possibly of scored. Holt ended up jumping with Johnson with both Reina and Carra desperately trying in vain to get to the cross.

It was absolute schoolboy defending three times we have dropped two points after taking the lead at home in games we were completely bossing. The worry is the opposition have had to do very little to score. It hasn't been individual brilliance it has been Holt rising to head in from the penalty spot, Hernandez heading in unmarked after Wellbeck rose unchallenged and Larson being completely unmarked at the far post.

It is absolutely schoolboy errors and time after time teams are exlpoiting the space between our right sided centre half and our right back. Our defensive frailty is making the whole side anxious and crucially filling the opposition with hope.

It used to be a case of it being game over after going a goal down at Anfield now it's just a case of throwing another forward on and waiting for us to gift the opposition a chance. Going a goal down used to be a signal to try and keep the score down now it's just a signal that it's game on.

That needs to change pronto.
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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2011, 07:18:45 pm »
I said earlier everyone is over analysing every facet of our performances this season.

As 92a siad we are a work in progress. Some weeks will click, others not so. But todays results put in perspective just what this league is all about. We moan about missing chances, but at least we have performed this season in 90% of our matches, only to be denied by in the main ourselves and some odd decisions. only Spurs can be chalked off and we lost two men that day.

You watch United and whilst they were scoring for fun in the early season their defence was fragile, culminating in a whopping they got today. Chelsea are still prone to self destruction also. man City have a diamond squad of players. Arsenal are likewise self destructive.

As long as we work hard to rectify the problem, and as i see it its just to do with killing games, its not majorly in defence although i realise Carra needs to be replaced after this season - will we do alright.

I think people need to sit back, take stock and prepare for the setbacks, and also prepare for some wonderful performances, because i reckon we will get both until the second half of the season. Im also hoping Kenny will figure out his best team as i think he's still unsure about how best to setup. it was easier last year for him when he had limited options and needed results, he created a formation and system for the players he had - he has so much more to play with this year and more talent.

yesterday was disappointing and dont get me wrong i was livid with the draw, but at least we are performing. I would be more worried if we signed all these players and we couldnt create, or get a decent performance from them.

I think we will be fine.
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Offline Roy of the rovers

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2011, 07:22:57 pm »
For me, the finishing is hiding a much bigger problem, asn I've posted on it in the 'lesson from Manc humiliation?' thread

Our midfield is weak. Not the players - we're ok there, certainly fighting at our weight. But our formation and organisation is poor. I don't believe 2 in the middle is enough - it has to be three. A destroyer, a creator and a playmaker is the classic, but we did well with Lucas, Raul and Gerrard in a more muscular combination last year. But 2 gets overrun

Our second problem is that there's precious little combination play going on - certainly in the final third. If Suarez doesn't cause mayhem, we have nothing to fall back on yet. Not Downing to carroll, not Gerrard or Adam arrivng late, not Kuyt crossing to Suarez, nothing. We haven't scored the same goal twice this season, and yet good teams develop patterns of goalscoring. Most recently for us it was Gerrard to Torres, but it coudl be enrique to carroll or Adam to downign to Carroll.

part of this is time together. Part of it is that we're rarely in the same formation with the same people twice. That's also making a dog's dinner of our defensive organisation

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Re: Liverpool 1-1 Norwich: Full Time
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2011, 07:25:26 pm »
Overall, I think there is a schizophrenic feel to the team. Half look like they would prefer to be playing 451/433 the other half look more comfortable playing 442. Having rid the team of the Hodgson personnel, there is still definitely the shadow of Benitez hanging over the side. The key performers in the team are still from that era and still look to play in a Benitez way. It's worrying to realise that £50 million worth of players started on the bench yesterday and the others that were brought in looked so out of form yesterday. The game was akin to Stoke and Sunderland, a lot of chances but a poor result as teams take advantage of the weaknesses in the side. There could be a few more games like this this year, until Dlaglish figures out how to mould the team he has into a coherent side.... he would be helped in this by a more dynamic midfield and I feel Adam must be removed from the side asap... even if that does have the unfortunate consequence of leaving Carroll, Henderson and Adam on the bench...

This is absolutely spot on. It's pretty frightening given that we're supposed to be playing the same game from top to bottom of the club. What the fuck it is, I can't tell. Worrying, to be honest

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2011, 07:26:02 pm »
I said earlier everyone is over analysing every facet of our performances this season.

As 92a siad we are a work in progress. Some weeks will click, others not so. ...

As long as we work hard to rectify the problem, and as i see it its just to do with killing games, ...


yesterday was disappointing and dont get me wrong i was livid with the draw, but at least we are performing. I would be more worried if we signed all these players and we couldnt create, or get a decent performance from them.

I think we will be fine.
Select bits from your post. I see the problem (not with your post, with the team) in the bits in bold. We made mistakes against United. We scored, we were the better team, but we didn't kill the game off. We didn't try hard enough. Then next week we had the same problem - we didn't kill the game off. Have we learned nothing? That was the biggest disappointment for me.

I absolutely agree with the last part of your post, as well as the overall context - we shouldn't miss a forest for a tree, we are rebuilding and exciting times are ahead of us.
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Offline Danyaals Kop

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2011, 07:37:47 pm »
To sum it up as it has been above this post :

We got what we deserved because we didn't take our numerous chances and thus, payed the price.

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2011, 07:40:23 pm »
Although it was obvious that we missed Lucas calmly dictating the tempo of the match, I don't think central midfield was where we let them back into the game. For me it was the lack of cover/support our widemen gave their fullbacks. Enrique especially, was given a torrid final half hour and really it was through no fault of his own. I wonder if this may be a slight problem when playing with inverted wingers, is it harder for players to track back and help their fullback when not playing on their natural side? Could it be because they are more likely to be further in field when we surrender possession? Or maybe it was simply because Bellamy is more of striker/forward than a winger/wide midfielder?
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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2011, 07:52:25 pm »
Let's be honest here as well - that fragile mentality has been there for years, and I mean years and years and years. Rafa almost cracked it in 08/09 but we still had a softness under pressure, it was never something Kenny would be able to solve in the time he's had. Funnily enough, for all that I am quite critical of him in places that is one area I'd back him to get it right given time - as an example it's impressive how well we've bounced back in terms of attitude and performance after the Spurs game, for example.

That said, there are some genuine, clear structural issues that I'm worried about. Some things were obvious fairly early into Roy's reign and there are some things that are fairly obvious now.

Firstly, it may not be a bad thing but I think we can give up on expecting a pressing game under this management. We haven't at any point set up to press systematically, our signings this summer have, if anything, reduced the number of 'pressers' in the squad so for whatever reason it just isn't the direction we're going to go in. It's also not a direction we need to go in, even though I personally would like us to. City, for example, don't really press much, and it's not exactly doing them to much harm.

The deep defensive line is more of an issue for me, and it remains a worry that Carra has been in some way involved in just about every goal we've conceded this season. More annoying still from my point of view is that yesterday's is the kind of game Coates should have started regardless, for similar reasons to why Bellamy should have (and of course did) start. These are games where we can and should rotate, as it stands if Coates isn't starting in games like yesterday's we can safely assume that we won't be seeing him it all unless it's the Carling Cup or there's an injury crisis. That lack of pro-activity in rotation is a problem and will be an issue in developing the young players we have if it continues. It's particularly odd because Kenny's shown himself to be very, and excellently at times, versatile in his selection policy.

I also thought we missed Lucas a bit yesterday - just noticable that they had time and space where Lucas usually patrols, and I was thinking that even in that dominant early spell where we could and should have blown them out of the water. That side of the performance definitely lends weight to those who have long advocated, if you like, 'taking the shackles off' and playing without a DM. It certainly can work, but we'd need to take our chances.

That was obviously our biggest problem yesterday, but to me that lack of composure in front of goal is at least partially rooted in our complete inability to keep clean sheets. The difference between conceding 0 regularly and conceding 1 regularly is absolutely massive. Put simply, a goal is the absolute minimum we need at the moment to even get a result, so all our attackers go onto the field under tremendous pressure to score twice.

Compare that to when you have a really solid back 4, you can pile on the pressure knowing that one goal will usually be enough, and after that first goal goes in a tremendous weight gets lifted off the shoulders. Under Rafa, for example, it was always that first goal that was so crucial - we often blew teams to pieces if we scored early because we knew that they were unlikely to come back from a goal down. As it stands we, instead, no that one goal is never going to be enough.

I think given time we are building a team that will have the potential to blow lesser sides out of the water, but to get there we're going to need real confidence in a settled back 4. We don't have that at the moment, though I personally believe we have the players to really build towards it, but they aren't being given a chance to show what they can do.

I also agree with DonkeyWan about the sense of disconnect in the team. It's a shame, to me, that we don't really to have attempted any kind of continuity back to our teams under Rafa at his best. Once again we've started a complete rebuild job and it will take time for that to work. I think that's a bit of a shame for the youth teams we've built - there was a project laid in place to integrate them into an approach that no longer exists, and that I don't expect us to re-implement.

However, some of the attacking dynamism on display is really mouth-watering, and for all that I think certain conclusions can be drawn at this early stage it is, of course, a really, really early stage still. That said I would have a lot more confidence that the bits I think of as teething problems would sort themselves out if we had a foundation of a reliable defence, but I don't see us having that at all this season, and it's asking a lot of the attackers to both gel together and overcome the short-comings at the back.
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Offline John C

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2011, 07:59:23 pm »
Firstly recognition must go to Norwich for their part in an excellent game of football, having overcome their initial stage fright and onslaught they developed in to the game and looked like a side likely to be returning to Anfield next season.

Having been at 80 minutes desperate for a goal so many times in recent years I didn’t think I’d be experiencing it again on the 45th minute mark. It may not turn out to be a spanking but I was certain with the chances we’d created and the thoroughly brilliant football we were playing victory would be ours. But, as with too many occasions this season, we’ve spurned those chances and became unrecognisable in the second half – why have we developed such a pattern this season? Our performance and effort dropped from a 9 to a 7 following a few packets of Jaffa cakes.

Of course if we’d have buried just one of our many chances created the complexion of the second half wouldn’t matter, indeed we should be enthused by the fact that we can create. Don’t forget in recent years we’ve all posted frustrations about not having creativity – now we have it in abundance in some games with no final product.
Which was annoying because Pepe had little to do overall compared to Ruddy.

Also its blown apart the myth suggested on here and even in the media last week that Liverpool have 2 styles of play – 1 with Carroll and 1 without Carroll. Andy can’t be blamed for the disjointed and often wasteful approach in the second half.

Whilst we are all pleased with the enhancements to our squad I did feel that when Bellamy finally succumbed to fatigue his replacement wasn’t anywhere near the standards he’d set – which was disappointing that there was no continuity or definitive impact

Errors are made in football, I didn’t blame Skrtel for letting Hernandez go last week and I won’t blame Pepe for not staying on his line this week – shit happens and we fight back as a team.

With regards to the formation, it looked mainly like a 442 to me yesterday, although I don’t see Kenny straying to often from a 4231, although perhaps with a 433 occasionally. Either way, irrespective of thoughts about our midfield, Andy Carroll must be accommodated and benefit from a run of games now. He’s proved he can improve and score with service, had he enjoyed longer than 10 minutes I’m certain he would have put his header away yesterday. It time for us to give him a serious run of games, let him settle and let his team learn about him because potentially we could be relying on his goals in future. Suarez is a wonderful, wonderful player who twists and turns to create space and chances better than anyone I’ve seen for years, but we’ve accepted that he’s not clinical so we need our only main striker to accompany him now.

We’re still on the edge of completion so there’s plenty to be positive about. Any or all of Agger, Lucas or Carroll (even Coates) could have made a missive difference yesterday, as would a fully fit Bellamy. Nine games in to the season with points dropped that could make you weep may seem like a disaster to some, but those with patience will know there’s more solid performances to follow once the better players are combining and others are forced to finally become squad members.

Offline richmiller1

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2011, 08:15:13 pm »
I think the trick after yesterday is just not to get too over excited.

The result was a kick in the teeth but none of the flaws in the performance (aside from our finishing) were especially criminal or disheartening.

Suarez just wants to stop needing 30 chances a goal, that will hopefully relieve some of the pressure that seems to building up around other individuals in the team.

One change I would make, Carroll should be given a run in that team, probably at the expense of Kuyt.

Beyond that, carry on........and as Kenny said, we'll win more than we loose

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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2011, 08:21:45 pm »
Although it was obvious that we missed Lucas calmly dictating the tempo of the match, I don't think central midfield was where we let them back into the game. For me it was the lack of cover/support our widemen gave their fullbacks. Enrique especially, was given a torrid final half hour and really it was through no fault of his own. I wonder if this may be a slight problem when playing with inverted wingers, is it harder for players to track back and help their fullback when not playing on their natural side? Could it be because they are more likely to be further in field when we surrender possession? Or maybe it was simply because Bellamy is more of striker/forward than a winger/wide midfielder?
I think Donkey got it right with Bellamy - I think he was quality yesterday but he's no winger. He hassles as a forward, put pressure on their back line off his own back but he isn't someone who really tracks back, and to be fair his fitness is such that if he did we'd get sod all out of him in attack. On the other flank I don't think it's inversion that's an issue as much as, again, Downing just doesn't seem to be particularly on it on the defensive side, which is something I wasn't expecting from him - I always saw him as unspectacular but solid, turns out he's a bit more spectacular than I'd thought but I don't think he's solid at all. Maxi offers a lot more defensively, as did Meireiles when employed out wide.
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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2011, 08:28:36 pm »
I think Donkey got it right with Bellamy - I think he was quality yesterday but he's no winger. He hassles as a forward, put pressure on their back line off his own back but he isn't someone who really tracks back, and to be fair his fitness is such that if he did we'd get sod all out of him in attack. On the other flank I don't think it's inversion that's an issue as much as, again, Downing just doesn't seem to be particularly on it on the defensive side, which is something I wasn't expecting from him - I always saw him as unspectacular but solid, turns out he's a bit more spectacular than I'd thought but I don't think he's solid at all. Maxi offers a lot more defensively, as did Meireiles when employed out wide.
If that's the case the two midfielder's should have been told to cover the fullbacks. As it was Johnson didn't really need the cover as he was comfortable on that side. Enrique and Adam was a different story.

Our left side has rarely clicked so far, even with Downing over there.
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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2011, 08:31:00 pm »
hard to comment when I only saw the highlights but even from those brief moments you can see we are getting things more right than wrong when it comes to the creative part of the game. Kenny never really had any issues with spotting attacking talent / system but from my iffy memory I remmember we did have some issues defensively. Himself and Clarke need to get the balance right and it might consist of a dip in the transfer pool by next summer as we need one solid world class experienced central defender to come in. Loads of young talent coming through but fire a Suarez class central defender (instant impact where you can see the class stamp) will sort us out quite nicely.
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Re: round table Liverpool 1-1 Norwich
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2011, 08:35:40 pm »
I said earlier everyone is over analysing every facet of our performances this season.

As 92a siad we are a work in progress. Some weeks will click, others not so. But todays results put in perspective just what this league is all about. We moan about missing chances, but at least we have performed this season in 90% of our matches, only to be denied by in the main ourselves and some odd decisions. only Spurs can be chalked off and we lost two men that day.

You watch United and whilst they were scoring for fun in the early season their defence was fragile, culminating in a whopping they got today. Chelsea are still prone to self destruction also. man City have a diamond squad of players. Arsenal are likewise self destructive.

As long as we work hard to rectify the problem, and as i see it its just to do with killing games, its not majorly in defence although i realise Carra needs to be replaced after this season - will we do alright.

I think people need to sit back, take stock and prepare for the setbacks, and also prepare for some wonderful performances, because i reckon we will get both until the second half of the season. Im also hoping Kenny will figure out his best team as i think he's still unsure about how best to setup. it was easier last year for him when he had limited options and needed results, he created a formation and system for the players he had - he has so much more to play with this year and more talent.

yesterday was disappointing and dont get me wrong i was livid with the draw, but at least we are performing. I would be more worried if we signed all these players and we couldnt create, or get a decent performance from them.

I think we will be fine.
Agree with this. I think part of the reason Kenny got the team to play so well together last spring was because except for Luis that team had been playing/training together for half a season under Roy. These are new players and it could take the same amount of time. I also am not too worried about our defense because as I stated in the post match thread I don't think clean sheets are a priority for Kenny. Rafa built from the back and to some extent I think Kenny is building from the front ... maybe that's because as a player he's more familiar with that aspect of the game (big assumption there on my part). But I really don't have a problem with it. When we play now I'm expecting us to press hard to score early and often in both halves and if, as a result, we leave ourselves open to a counter attack or two that result in a goal so be it. The problem right now isn't the effort or the pressing, it's the scoring, so the occasional opposition goal makes us drop points. Other than Tottenham where red cards played a factor we've only let in max 1 goal a game this season and I guess I'm OK with that. I think maybe we the fans need to adjust our expectations too ... we were spoiled by clean sheets with Rafa but we also had more 0-0 draws (none so far this season). We're doing everything according to the plan as I see it except putting the ball in the net but think that will come.