Topic: SNP launches referendum white paper

[Reheat Red]

I guess that would be up to the rUK if they can stay in the rUK army.  I'm not sure why they wouldn't though.

So what would this new Scottish army actually be made up of? 

[GREGtheRED]

I guess that would be up to the rUK if they can stay in the rUK army.  I'm not sure why they wouldn't though.

Please, just the UK. We will whatever happens continue to be the UK.

[GREGtheRED]

Have a read of this regarding the affordability of setting up our own military:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/phoning-it-in/

The Tornado is virtually obsolete.

Every single operator of the ground attack variant is in the process of retiring it in favour of a 4.5 or 5th generation replacement. This includes the Saudis who were the one non-European state to buy Tornado.

It says little for a) the author of the article linked that this is not understood

and b) Scotland as an independent nation, should it be relying on a thoroughly outdated, cold war era fast jet to form the backbone of its air force.

[GREGtheRED]

I guess that would be up to the rUK if they can stay in the rUK army.  I'm not sure why they wouldn't though.

You are not sure why they wouldn't simply just leave the British Army? I'd suggest it would be because the majority of those who join the British Army are dedicated, principled men and women who take pride in the commitments they have made to their units, their colleagues, and to the Army itself.

[dundeered]

Bin the forces , we have oil , America will look after us or invade us .wont have to worry about the illegal wars our forces are already involved in

[Reheat Red]

It's amazing how one situation with Iraq is used by many to try and make it sound like armed forces are unnecessary and that they never do good work.

[Elmo!]

Bin the forces , we have oil , America will look after us or invade us .wont have to worry about the illegal wars our forces are already involved in

Agreed,  I'd be happy for defense spending to be halved, we don't need it.

[Elmo!]

You are not sure why they wouldn't simply just leave the British Army? I'd suggest it would be because the majority of those who join the British Army are dedicated, principled men and women who take pride in the commitments they have made to their units, their colleagues, and to the Army itself.

And how would that in any way be any different in a Scottish Army?

[Snail]

I guess that would be up to the rUK if they can stay in the rUK army.  I'm not sure why they wouldn't though.

You don't know why they wouldn't just up and leave the British Army/Navy/Air Force and all their mates behind? Really?

[dundeered]

Heading off topic again ^^ , but I don't see why we need to have a large army etc , to benefit us how , so we can send them overseas to be killed ? , I would rather we invested in what we need to protect our waters from drugs coming in , a fleet to support the oil and a few border patrol type units , with some air coverage , we don't need a lot , still laughing at how some folk think that we would end up with the worst of all the forces stock , why would that happen , assumptions yet again some of them verging on bigoted .

[dundeered]

You don't know why they wouldn't just up and leave the British Army/Navy/Air Force and all their mates behind? Really?

Stupidest thing ever , yeah people in work never move either , it's a job nothing more

[Elmo!]

Heading off topic again ^^ , but I don't see why we need to have a large army etc , to benefit us how , so we can send them overseas to be killed ? , I would rather we invested in what we need to protect our waters from drugs coming in , a fleet to support the oil and a few border patrol type units , with some air coverage , we don't need a lot , still laughing at how some folk think that we would end up with the worst of all the forces stock , why would that happen , assumptions yet again some of them verging on bigoted .

Especially considering despite the millions we contribute to the Royal Navy, there is not a single naval ship anywhere near Scottish waters and a ship had to be sent up from Portsmouth when a russian aircraft carrier entered Scottish waters.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073901/HMS-York-scrambled-Scotland-Russian-fleet-security-scare.html

[Welshred]

Stupidest thing ever , yeah people in work never move either , it's a job nothing more

Alright then. They'd never leave their pensions and the lump sum they'd get upon leaving the Army here, for what would be a hell of a lot less from the Scottish government.

[Reheat Red]

I'd imagine the army and the relationships you build up is more than a run of the mill job.

But the point is they should not be forced to leave.

[Elmo!]

I'd imagine the army and the relationships you build up is more than a run of the mill job.

But the point is they should not be forced to leave.

Should these 20,000 be forced to leave (Without the offer of another job)?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/05/thousands-soldiers-compulsory-redundancy

[Alan_X]

The Royal Navy is part of the UK.  Scotland is entitled to it's fair share of all assets of the UK (as well as it's debts).  This is not in debate, what is in debate is exactly how much is it's fair share and what those assets would be made up from.

So the oil in the North Sea will be divided up equally as well?

[Carly]

So what would this new Scottish army actually be made up of? 

Something like this most likely

[Reheat Red]

Should these 20,000 be forced to leave (Without the offer of another job)?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/05/thousands-soldiers-compulsory-redundancy

I certainly don't think so but redundancy due to finance issues is different from being forced out by a political separatist agenda.

[GREGtheRED]

Stupidest thing ever , yeah people in work never move either , it's a job nothing more

How many Scottish career soldiers will want to transfer into an organisation that can offer little of what the British Army can? In my experience, people join because they want to test themselves in high intensity combat situations around the world, work with 65 tonne main battle tanks, join regiments with proud and illustrious histories etc

Financial and political constraints will mean a Scottish Defence Force will not be in a position to offer any Scot transferring from the British Army any of this.

[Reheat Red]

Don't know how reliable this is but http://www.facebook.com/bettertogetheruk/posts/572007522882893

[Elmo!]

So the oil in the North Sea will be divided up equally as well?

Wrong,  the oil is predominantly in Scottish waters.  It is not something that the rUK has paid in to to produce, it is a naturally occurring asset belonging to Scotland, unlike what we were talking about which is things that Scotland has contributed to with it's proportion of taxes.

[GREGtheRED]

Wrong,  the oil is predominantly in Scottish waters.  It is not something that the rUK has paid in to to produce, it is a naturally occurring asset belonging to Scotland, unlike what we were talking about which is things that Scotland has contributed to with it's proportion of taxes.

But we have been paying for its extraction up to this point. Will we get our 90% of the extraction and production infrastructure back?

[Elmo!]

But we have been paying for its extraction up to this point. Will we get our 90% of the extraction and production infrastructure back?

How have you been paying for it's extraction?  It is not State owned and it is run for profit by private companies.

[Carly]

BREAKING: Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy has just vetoed indy Scottish joining EU without formal application as new state, reports BBC -

Rajoy warns against "solo adventures in an uncertain future” by Scotland and Catalonia, Madrid colleague reports .  Rajoy states: "if part of member state leaves from a member state, it converts itself into a third party [with] the EU.  Rajoy: “In no way does it benefit our regions and our citizens to propose divisions or solo adventures [where] the destination is unknown."  Rajoy: "What I would like is that Scottish should be realistically presented with the consequences of succession.

As expected really. Spain dont want to give the Basque/Catalan regions any hope.  So can THE snp and their supporters please stop talking about a currency union....  If you get independence and join the EU you WILL have to adopt the Euro.... 

[Elmo!]

BREAKING: Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy has just vetoed indy Scottish joining EU without formal application as new state, reports BBC -

Rajoy warns against "solo adventures in an uncertain future” by Scotland and Catalonia, Madrid colleague reports .  Rajoy states: "if part of member state leaves from the member state, it converts itself into a third part [with] the EU.  Rajoy: “In no way does it benefit our regions and our citizens to propose divisions or solo adventures [where] the destination is unknown."  Rajoy: "What I would like is that Scottish should be realistically presented with the consequences of succession.

As expected really. Spain dont want to give the Basque/Catalan regions any hope.  So can THE snp AND THEIR SUPPORTERS please stop talking about a currency unions.....  If you get independence and join the EU you WILL have to adopt the Euro....

At first glance this is pretty bad news for the Yes campaign, but he hasn't vetoed anything.  You can't veto anything before it's even on the table.  And I don't think the Spanish are too keen on losing Scottish waters from the EU considering how much they fish there.  Early days yet...

[Carly]

At first glance this is pretty bad news for the Yes campaign, but he hasn't vetoed anything.  You can't veto anything before it's even on the table.  And I don't think the Spanish are too keen on losing Scottish waters from the EU considering how much they fish there.  Early days yet...

Hmmmmm losing some waters for fishing like you say or possibility of losing parts of their own country.  Im pretty sure I know what way Spain will go on this one.. Enjoy the Euro if you get your wish of independence 

[zebenzui]

Something like this most likely

No bad thing at all. As if we'd need an extravagent military.

In my experience, people join because they want to test themselves in high intensity combat situations around the world, work with 65 tonne main battle tanks, join regiments with proud and illustrious histories etc

You meet some choice pricks then.

[Alan_X]

How have you been paying for it's extraction?  It is not State owned and it is run for profit by private companies.

Through tax breaks. Tax breaks mean aren't free - if the government gives a tax break to oil companies to encourage development then someone has to make up the difference.

[Elmo!]

Hmmmmm losing some waters for fishing like you say or possibility of losing parts of their own country.  Im pretty sure I know what way Spain will go on this one.. Enjoy the Euro if you get your wish of independence 

You mean losing large amounts of fishing waters or Scottish indepedence possibly but not necessarily having some sort of impact on the possibility of Catalunya/The Basque country becoming independent.

[Elmo!]

Through tax breaks. Tax breaks mean aren't free - if the government gives a tax break to oil companies to encourage development then someone has to make up the difference.

Tax breaks mean companies paying less tax, you are still net benefiting from the oil.  You still haven't paid anything in.

[west_london_red]

I'd imagine the army and the relationships you build up is more than a run of the mill job.

But the point is they should not be forced to leave.

But what if cuts have to be made? Why should we keep foreigners in the army while making our own redundant?

[Carly]

You mean losing large amounts of fishing waters or Scottish indepedence possibly but not necessarily having some sort of impact on the possibility of Catalunya/The Basque country becoming independent.

Scotland becoming independent and being allowed straight into the EU  like the SNP have been shouting about for over a year has a huge impact on Spain and its separatist regions as it gives them hope that they could do a similar thing if they go for independence.. 

There is no chance in hell that Spain will allow Scotland to just join without negotiating and adopting the Euro.  Not a chance in hell in fact.  They have been whsipering it for a while now and tonight they have finally come straight out and said it... 

This happened only last year in Spain - http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/spanish-pm-says-no-to-catalan-demands-1-3094861

They don't want to give them any hope whatsoever....  Im already awaiting Salmonds response of how the Spanish pm is only scaremongering and thats theres nothing to worry about

[MichaelA]

Bin the forces , we have oil , America will look after us or invade us .wont have to worry about the illegal wars our forces are already involved in

Is this tongue in cheek?

[Elmo!]

Scotland becoming independent and being allowed straight into the EU  like the SNP have been shouting about for over a year has a huge impact on Spain and its separatist regions as it gives them hope that they could do a similar thing if they go for independence.. 

There is no chance in hell that Spain will allow Scotland to just join without negotiating and adopting the Euro.  Not a chance in hell in fact.  They have been whsipering it for a while now and tonight they have finally come straight out and said it... 

This happened only last year in Spain - http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/spanish-pm-says-no-to-catalan-demands-1-3094861

They don't want to give them any hope whatsoever....

Spain aren't exactly in a strong position in the EU at the moment and the rest of the EU would not want to effectively expel a current member which has a strong economy and has the EU's biggest oil reserves and 25% of the EU's potential renewable energy resources as well as territorialy  important waters and air space.  I'm confident pragmatism would win the day.

[Carly]

Spain aren't exactly in a strong position in the EU at the moment and the rest of the EU would not want to effectively expel a current member which has a strong economy and has the EU's biggest oil reserves and 25% of the EU's potential renewable energy resources as well as territorialy  important waters and air space.  I'm confident pragmatism would win the day.

Is that you Alex Salmond??  Once again your ignoring whats right in front of you and going off on assumptions again.    Have you read what the Spanish Pm has said tonight.  I think hes pretty clear on the matter..... Enjoy the euro.

[Welshred]

Spain aren't exactly in a strong position in the EU at the moment and the rest of the EU would not want to effectively expel a current member which has a strong economy and has the EU's biggest oil reserves and 25% of the EU's potential renewable energy resources as well as territorialy  important waters and air space.  I'm confident pragmatism would win the day.

Have you seen the fuss Spain have been creating over Gibraltar in recent weeks? Of course they'd veto Scotland from joining the EU to stop the Catalan and Basque regions from wanting independence, or to spite them in case they gained it.

[Elmo!]

Is that you Alex Salmond??  Once again your ignoring whast right in front of you and going off on assumptions again.   

I've acknowledged what you have said and what the Spanish PM has said and made a reasoned argument on how I think it will play out.  There is no certainty in this, I acknowledge that but there is no certainty in anything, especially when it comes to remaining in the EU as part of the UK.

[MichaelA]

Spain aren't exactly in a strong position in the EU at the moment and the rest of the EU would not want to effectively expel a current member which has a strong economy and has the EU's biggest oil reserves and 25% of the EU's potential renewable energy resources as well as territorialy  important waters and air space.  I'm confident pragmatism would win the day.

Pragmatism would suggest that the Catalan and Scottish issues are not the only separatist movements within EU member states. Opening the door for either of them creates precedent for current member nations who may not wish to see an expanded, fragmented and unmanageable Union. Oh. It's a union. Imagine leaving one to join one!

[Elmo!]

Pragmatism would suggest that since the Catalan and Scottish issues are not the only separatist movements within EU member states. Opening the door for either of them creates precedent for current member nations who may not wish to see an expanded, fragmented and unmanageable Union. Oh. It's a union. Imagine leaving one to join one!

It would not be leaving one to join one, it would be leaving one and staying in one or at worst re-joining one.

And the comparison is ridiculous, they are completely different types of unions with different powers and remits.

[Welshred]

It would not be leaving one to join one, it would be leaving one and staying in one or at worst re-joining one.

And the comparison is ridiculous, they are completely different types of unions with different powers and remits.

Currently Scotland isn't in the European Union, the UK is. If Scotland were to leave it's union with the UK it would most certainly be seeking to join the European Union. It wouldn't be staying in it, because it's not currently in it. It also wouldn't be re-joining, because it currently isn't in it.