Topic: Southampton Round Table

[L666KOP]

I understand exactly what you mean. I see the game as a holistic mixture of space, time, positions, and flow of play. Glue and Energy fit that thinking exactly.

And the two players we have that epitomise that are Henderson, and Allen.
I'd like to see a midfield of Lucas, Allen, and Henderson given a proper go.
Allen is much better pressing from a position higher up the pitch, and Jordan has the legs to help Lucas out when defending, his energy when in transition would also be a boon aside Joe further up the pitch, he's the one player I think most capable of being the player that adjusts best when we transition from a 2 and a 1, to a 1 and a 2.

[robgomm]

A good question to ask when your team plays is do we have the right players set up in the way that best suits them? I don't think we can answer yes for Saturday. No formation is intrinsically good or bad, they work or don't work based on the players application and understanding.

The average position of our wingers was somewhere up near the forwards - the midfield was conceded. We were given a lesson in pressing, somewhat ironically. So this is one game that should tell him a lot. The most worrying aspect is the apparent complacency but we have some players who've been around a long time now. We will see fresh faces in the defence this summer.

A poor day but the trend is good. Villa will be very tough but for their spirit their defence is poor. We need a showing like that against Wigan or QPR.

[Gnurglan]

Getting back to the game and the OP, I think for me there are only two ways we can get all of our attackers/goalscorers in the team and maintain some semblance of central stength.

Firstly, we would have to drop Downing, and actually copy what Southampton did, and play a 4-2-3-1 with a tight "3" behind Sturridge:



Henderson would give us the ability to press, Lucas would give us the solidity in the middle, freeing Gerrard up to roam between the two and find his passes. Coutinho and Sturridge would have free reign to play as two Number 10's behind Sturridge, so we get the mobility we know is effective but with the added option of the directness to Sturridge. We also maintain our width through the fullbacks. Skrtel and Carragher could be interchangeable.

On the other hand, we could drop both Henderson and Downing, and play a 3-4-2-1:



This would give us the solidity in the central defence where we are vulnerable, and retain the mobility and the direct option up front, but it means we play with a midfield two. The alternative is to play Suarez and Sturridge as a front two, and Coutinho as part of the central midfield (3-4-1-2) and maintain the 3 in the middle that suits us, but means we can only get our width from the wingbacks, which could make our possession somewhat predictable.

There are solutions there, but I'm not sure Rodgers will look in that direction?

My preference would be to swap Henderson and Gerrard in the top one. When we actually win the ball, I think that would be far better for us. Plus I think Henderson's future role should be as a deeper playing CM. Still remember his performance as a RB. IMO he showed more qualities there than he has as an attacking player. I'd like to see him in a disciplined role, where he collects the ball and just passes it on to more creative players.

I don't like three at the back, but I certainly see your point about the second formation. It makes sense with the players we have. With Allen-Gerrard in CM, I would have liked to see that solution. To give us more stability in the middle. Now our center is like the wild west saloon doors. You push a little and it's an open route straight to the target.

Can someone explain to me the sudden need to have 'all of our attackers on the pitch'

I can't see a functional side which has Coutinho, Sturridge, Downing, Suarez and Gerrard in it I  really can't - doesn't matter how you set them up the bottom line is that's half the outfield team with little or no 'off the ball' defensive ability; just don't see it

Worth thinking about. If we look at our team/squad, where are we going with it? What is our prefered 'system'? Take our signings (excluding Assaidi as I think he's a backup or an extra option), how do they fit together? Allen, Borini, Sturridge, Coutinho. Now add the obvious starters in Lucas, Gerrard and Suarez. What system do you play to fit them all in, or at least as many as possible? Has to be a 4-3-3 with wide men and a lone striker. Play Suarez as the second striker and there's no room for Allen, Rodgers' most expensive signing to date. But it also means, if we go 4-3-3 with Allen in there, that two of Suarez, Borini and Sturridge will have to play more on the wing.

Now it's easy to draw too many conclusions after a defeat, but where are we going with this? When I have my more sceptical days, I think we have a lot of (let be good) pieces that just don't fit together.

[Dr_Evil]

Being a Liverpool fan is like dating a supermodel with a violent ex-boyfriend. It's like a watching the Aurora Borealis with Craig Burley. It's like making love to Charlotte Jackson whilst staring into the dead eyes of Chris Coleman.

Much like José Enrique's barber, we barely have time to catch our breath and admire our handiwork before we're back to square one, a baffling thicket of ineptitude needing more time and bigger shears. Fuck! Fuckety! Fuck! If there was one refreshing lilt to the otherwise familiar drone of disappointment it was that this time our manager cost us the game. Playing a two man midfield minus your regular defensive midfielder, and featuring our most uncomfortable pairing, was always a bad start. I expect there will be a lot of debate over Allen versus Henderson, but personally I say it's a redundant point, because without a third man in middle we were always going to struggle. Not why Allen instead of Henderson, but why not both?

Is it arrogance? Laziness? I can't figure out why we would go 4-2-4 away from home. Long gone are the days even Ferguson would go two up front away from home. Is the two man midifeld a thing any more? Does it exist? Did it ever exist? Maybe it's listed as a hobby on somebody's MySpace page from 2004. Maybe it's a cautionary tale about the transience of innocence. Maybe it's a forgotten bird, its plumage a sickening brown and it's beak lined with fat little humanoid teeth. Maybe it's the Werthers omlette Roy Hodgson burns as he leers at Tim Lovejoy on 'Sunday Brunch'. Maybe it's a towel-clad Igor Biscan manouvering his newborn from arm to arm as he bashfully signs for whatever it is she's bought this time. Maybe it's the 'ding!' Joey Barton's head makes as you fling pennies at it. But I digress...

The fact is I think that one key tactical error had us 2-0 down and near enough beat before we ever got going. I'm happy with the plan, and I'm happy with the direction, but yesterday was schoolboy. It was doubly schoolboy given that we spent most of this week cashing in our 'Get Out of Jail Free' card for £200 and three points against Spurs. Joe Allen's fucked anyway, he only seems to get picked out of position or in games where the growing mob of 'Hendo vs Allen'ers get handed a big box of nepotism ammo.

Glen Johnson's had a temporary lobotomy, which meant our defence averaged point five of a brain yesterday. Skrtel is one Enrique-style overnight hair renaissance from dispelling the last remaining whiff of him being at all intimidating. I miss Pepe a great deal, as I have done for most of the season (especially when he's been playing). Sturridge was on Ngog's leftover goal valium. Ibe on the bench to me again hints at not preparing for the game with due respect and consideration. We played like a team expecting sixty-minute party subs, but not like one that would ever get to do them.

That's about us done in terms of league ambitions, so here's hoping we continue to build and yesterday was just one of those days. Also there's much worse teams than Southampton that could stay up, and they have yet another Spain-educated manager who seems to have a bit more than your Alan Pardew, so I could begrudge them their three points a lot more. Pah it's the hope that gets you. Kill the hope with fire.

P.S. Is it a wig or is he just that damn virile?

P.P.S. Are bizarre team selections worth it simply to see Twitter's collective eggy face? #ITK

I'm glad that this is the first thig I've read here since Saturday's result. Somehow, it all seems better..thanks BP

[Vulmea]

And the two players we have that epitomise that are Henderson, and Allen.
I'd like to see a midfield of Lucas, Allen, and Henderson given a proper go.
Allen is much better pressing from a position higher up the pitch, and Jordan has the legs to help Lucas out when defending, his energy when in transition would also be a boon aside Joe further up the pitch, he's the one player I think most capable of being the player that adjusts best when we transition from a 2 and a 1, to a 1 and a 2.

football surprises you all the time but there doesn't look to be a lot of goals in that midfield - there isn't a lot of goals in our back four either - we'd be very reliant on the front three - and where have you put Gerrard?

also Henderson has looked suprisingly effective as the front man of the three, a role I'd have never picked him for but fair play to BR he spotted that his pressing from that position causes mayhem with the opposition  - not suprising I guess given the mayhem we've had at the back when pressed - but it also gives Luis the ability to roam as Henderson's energy fills a void - another reason why his failure to be selected against a decent passing side like Saints was odd - he seems to tick every box - tidy in possession, good movement, physical yet he's under utilised I dont really get it with him - it would have meant dropping Coutinho or Downing but it was the most obvious move.

If the idea is to get the two wide men learning to tuck in so we can play that way against sides next season then it needed more work in training or in friendlies because it didn't work - back to communications and responsibility - we are a quiet side - who in the centre or at the back was bullying/cajoling those players into position - who was demanding we compress the play - which one of the back four dragged the midfield back or pushed the back line up - who told Skrtel to get forward 5 yards and play on the front foot - Stevie is an inspirational skipper but he aint an organiser or communicator on the pitch - if we strat to rotate him more next season we wont just be needing a Vice captain - thats another failing with that midfield three where's the leader, the voice?

you can see why we were looking for Sigurdsson or Dempsey though given their goals but if we genuinely want 6 central midfielders I dont see the problem with Henderson staying but where's the manager on the pitch is that supposed to be Allen?

[alxhix]

Hi all,

This is my first post - so be gentle please. You won't see much informed opinion - I'm not knowledgeable enough to even make head nor tails out of half of what the rest of you scholars put down - but these round table discussions were linked to our supporters forum in sunny South Africa; and after scratching my head through the last three I had to join up. You guys are brilliant, and bring a whole new level of thinking to my simple enjoyment or agony of watching the red men play.

As I understand it, and from the comfort of my living room floor (is it just me, or does anyone else find it impossible to sit still on a couch a whole 2 meters from the TV while the game is on?) - Southampton was an unmitigated disaster of a cocktail with the ingredients of poor team selection for the tactics that the team were asked to play, poor tactics against the style that Southampton employed, poor desire from certain players to track back in defence and press the Saints players in possession, some baffling individual errors, and panic when we did finally get the ball which led to over hit passes and hit-and-hope clearances; all held together with dreadful conditions.

There is a lot of criticism of BR in social media; and plenty of praise for him too - but few people who seem to be undecided. I'm not sure myself - he's shown snatches of brilliance and occasional lapses to subterranean depths of ineptitude; all in a single season. I'm all for giving him time, not only because we're not Chelsea, but also because the inept performances can be rectified. He's more flexible than he was painted to be; but he does seem to suffer from a slight learning disability.

At any rate - please keep it up; I cannot begin to explain how much I've learnt from 3 threads so far.

[L666KOP]

football surprises you all the time but there doesn't look to be a lot of goals in that midfield - there isn't a lot of goals in our back four either - we'd be very reliant on the front three - and where have you put Gerrard?

Against teams that will press intelligently I'd have Gerrard either in the front three, or on the bench, every game we've lost this season has invariably been because we've llost the midfield, and not having 'legs' in there has contributed massively to them. Stevie plays the quarterback role well, but ask him to be the player that shifts up and down during transitions and his legs just can't do it anymore.

also Henderson has looked suprisingly effective as the front man of the three, a role I'd have never picked him for but fair play to BR he spotted that his pressing from that position causes mayhem with the opposition  - not suprising I guess given the mayhem we've had at the back when pressed - but it also gives Luis the ability to roam as Henderson's energy fills a void - another reason why his failure to be selected against a decent passing side like Saints was odd - he seems to tick every box - tidy in possession, good movement, physical yet he's under utilised I dont really get it with him - it would have meant dropping Coutinho or Downing but it was the most obvious move.

Yep, he's the player we should be using to fill the 'transition' mifield role, and if needs be he can be the one that makes way for Gerrard, in certain games, even Allen could be the one rotated, but as I said earlier, I think Allen's better performances came when he pressed from the front, but I just don't think he's at a level yet where he can make any midfield position his own.

If the idea is to get the two wide men learning to tuck in so we can play that way against sides next season then it needed more work in training or in friendlies because it didn't work - back to communications and responsibility - we are a quiet side - who in the centre or at the back was bullying/cajoling those players into position - who was demanding we compress the play - which one of the back four dragged the midfield back or pushed the back line up - who told Skrtel to get forward 5 yards and play on the front foot - Stevie is an inspirational skipper but he aint an organiser or communicator on the pitch - if we strat to rotate him more next season we wont just be needing a Vice captain - thats another failing with that midfield three where's the leader, the voice?

Again, this is something Brendan needs to look at, when we lose the midfield it's usually because we play a two, and the attacking quartet, and the midfield two don't push on, or fall back as a unit, hence we end up with opposition midfielders having the time and space to receive, look up, and set off on careering runs at the heart of our defence. Perhaps Brendan has a 'voice' planned for his summer recruitment drive ??

you can see why we were looking for Sigurdsson or Dempsey though given their goals but if we genuinely want 6 central midfielders I dont see the problem with Henderson staying but where's the manager on the pitch is that supposed to be Allen?

[Cocomin]

Hi all,

This is my first post - so be gentle please. You won't see much informed opinion - I'm not knowledgeable enough to even make head nor tails out of half of what the rest of you scholars put down - but these round table discussions were linked to our supporters forum in sunny South Africa; and after scratching my head through the last three I had to join up. You guys are brilliant, and bring a whole new level of thinking to my simple enjoyment or agony of watching the red men play.

As I understand it, and from the comfort of my living room floor (is it just me, or does anyone else find it impossible to sit still on a couch a whole 2 meters from the TV while the game is on?) - Southampton was an unmitigated disaster of a cocktail with the ingredients of poor team selection for the tactics that the team were asked to play, poor tactics against the style that Southampton employed, poor desire from certain players to track back in defence and press the Saints players in possession, some baffling individual errors, and panic when we did finally get the ball which led to over hit passes and hit-and-hope clearances; all held together with dreadful conditions.

There is a lot of criticism of BR in social media; and plenty of praise for him too - but few people who seem to be undecided. I'm not sure myself - he's shown snatches of brilliance and occasional lapses to subterranean depths of ineptitude; all in a single season. I'm all for giving him time, not only because we're not Chelsea, but also because the inept performances can be rectified. He's more flexible than he was painted to be; but he does seem to suffer from a slight learning disability.

At any rate - please keep it up; I cannot begin to explain how much I've learnt from 3 threads so far.

Welcome mate let's hope that the next round table is a lot more positive

[Timbo's Goals]

I'm glad that this [ BREAKFAST PERCY's terrific post] is the first thig I've read here since Saturday's result. Somehow, it all seems better..thanks BP

Thanks for reminding me of this. Forgot all about it after wading through all the forensic follow ups. Great stuff Joe. And yeah I, too, was baffled just as much by the apparent overnight follicle proliferation as I was by the failure of half our team to turn up on the day - notwithstanding how the manager intended them to be set up if they had turned up.

 

[Draex]

you can see why we were looking for Sigurdsson or Dempsey though given their goals but if we genuinely want 6 central midfielders I dont see the problem with Henderson staying but where's the manager on the pitch is that supposed to be Allen?

I think the major issue Rodgers has had is trying to fit Gerrard into the system - Allen was brought in to play as the "link" player, but early experiments with Gerrard as the most advanced midfielder didn't work, so Gerrard got pushed backwards whilst not being a "link" he operates in the same area between the defensive and attacking midfielders - very much a deep lying playmaker where you have Lucas doing the defensive work and usually someone ahead doing the hard pressing and link between attack and midfield.

This is why Allen has been in limbo, firstly he got square pegged into a very round Lucas hole early on, and whilst intially he looked very good, teams quickly realised if they pressed him quickly and aggressively he was culprable for turning the ball over and making errors.. Now Lucas is back and Gerrard seemingly nailed for the link role, Rodgers is having a hard time getting Allen into the team - Henderson has looked a far better player in the more advanced role.

Allen isn't a bad player, in my opinion he is a very classy player but he isn't that versatile and the 100% inclusion of Gerrard means he is having to try other roles, which when joining a new club and especially a huge one like Liverpool and those expectations and carrying an injury - he will struggle!

For me the elephant in the room is as always Gerrard, I'm not saying he isn't enjoying one of his most productive seasons in years, but is having 1 player on song at the expense of the team (at times) really what we need? I personally think Lucas + Allen + Henderson is our most balanced midfield, we would control the center of the park and offer that much needed solidity and structure in front of a back 4 getting to grips with a new system. Of course it's now a mute point as Allen is out for the rest of the season, but Gerrard wont be around forever - this season Rodgers has as much slack and patiance as he'll ever have and this was the time to try and look at the team without our Captain Fantastic.

[Mutton Geoff]

I understand the point about Gerrard being the elephant in the room, but he is a game changer still so on present form throughout the season he has to play.
Maybe the problem is not him playing but being able to design the midfield around him for the next season at least.

As for Saturday i think it was evidence of the still mentally fragile team we have, we get an early goal we are flying, we let in an early goal the team seems to go into its shell, with few exceptions we get done over then.

We also cannot sustain pressure on teams for long enough yet , in every game we have this slump in energy or concentration and that allows the other team to much space as happened with Spurs and other teams this season, so we need mentally tougher players for next season in my opinion.

So if we go ahead and get another from the early pressure generally we go on to score a few, if we score one and then  switch off the other team gradually gets a hold of the game and scores one maybe two. If they score first we generally ship more goals soon after not in all games but the pattern has been there this season.

Hand on heart did anyone think even at 2-1 that we would get anything out of that game.

[FoolForPool]

Guys, please remember, the round table is excellent because the post match threads allow fans to vent their frustrations first.  People have got over their emotional response and can read and learn from the round table with cooler heads.  Hopefully they can take your knowledge back to the next post match thread and be a little bit the wiser.  I love the passion of the post match threads, even when we talk shit, cos at least the passion is there.

The only problem I have with this round table is that I find myself fucking agreeing with pretty much every poster. I may just go back to the post match thread and vent my spleen - it's easier that way.

[Sangria]

Hand on heart did anyone think even at 2-1 that we would get anything out of that game.

We're hard put to get anything when Lucas isn't in the XI, and I don't think it's just about him as a player. I think we're mentally soft, and just as we did with Alonso, now we look to Lucas as our focal point, and if he's not there, we take that as a reason to underperform. Getting a combative CM would cover the playing side of Lucas's absence, but if he's up for it, I'd look to Alonso and not primarily for his playing ability. Mascherano would be better still, but there's even less chance of him.

[L666KOP]

Hand on heart did anyone think even at 2-1 that we would get anything out of that game.

I'd be very surprised if anyone thought we'd get anything out of it at the 15 minute mark. Because I thought then we were going to lose.
We even got gifted a 'dolly' just before half time, and still it made no difference.

[DanA]

This is what I desperately want Rodgers to play. To me it makes sense on so many levels. It gets all our best players on the pitch, it's nicely balance and really everybody is playing a role they excel at. Henderson can use his running capacity to press without it and present with it. While he might not be a noted goal scorer, he's got plenty of goal scorers around him to compensate and he's good at bringing them into the game.  Long term a summer signing of Strootman would make a lot of sense. He'd be an very good fit for any of the three midfield roles and being a left footer would offer something different in midfield. That one change for Shelvey would be enough for me in attack and midfield, we could then concentrate on defense.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Getting back to the game and the OP, I think for me there are only two ways we can get all of our attackers/goalscorers in the team and maintain some semblance of central stength.

Firstly, we would have to drop Downing, and actually copy what Southampton did, and play a 4-2-3-1 with a tight "3" behind Sturridge:



Henderson would give us the ability to press, Lucas would give us the solidity in the middle, freeing Gerrard up to roam between the two and find his passes. Coutinho and Sturridge would have free reign to play as two Number 10's behind Sturridge, so we get the mobility we know is effective but with the added option of the directness to Sturridge. We also maintain our width through the fullbacks. Skrtel and Carragher could be interchangeable.

On the other hand, we could drop both Henderson and Downing, and play a 3-4-2-1:



This would give us the solidity in the central defence where we are vulnerable, and retain the mobility and the direct option up front, but it means we play with a midfield two. The alternative is to play Suarez and Sturridge as a front two, and Coutinho as part of the central midfield (3-4-1-2) and maintain the 3 in the middle that suits us, but means we can only get our width from the wingbacks, which could make our possession somewhat predictable.

There are solutions there, but I'm not sure Rodgers will look in that direction?

i think all things considered the top one is probably about right for me. i have no problem at all who he chooses out of the top 3 Downing is in form, Coutihno looks quality. but he absolutely has to play 3 in the middle, even more so if Lucas isnt going to start.

3 at the back is also fine by me, although i think its probably our underdog away from home default. i also thought hendo lucas, alllen and gerrard all in the same team, meant we looked like a circulation team, very solid. I absolutely do not think we should be going 424, however was it actually a 424 on Saturday, or did we just lose our shape horribly. I didnt see the game by the way.

[Vulmea]

Hand on heart did anyone think even at 2-1 that we would get anything out of that game.

At half time I did. Its been done to us so often - dominate a game miss a load of chances give the opposition a sniff and we draw/lose. I thought we'd been gifted a life line with the goal (mind you I thought we had with Coutinho's miss) I think we did play better at the start of the 2nd but it wasn't good enough and then their confidence grew and chances came. If we'd had more conviction to our play, more tempo we'd have turned that around 2nd half - we have potentially better players than them that should be able to make any system work better than that, we had players on the bench that could have changed it around - it wasn't inevitable but sadly mentally we weren't at the races - we didn't change things - we dind't control the things we should have - we played out what we all feared and it therefore became entirely predictable.

[Red_Mist]

Southampton was an unmitigated disaster of a cocktail with the ingredients of poor team selection for the tactics that the team were asked to play, poor tactics against the style that Southampton employed, poor desire from certain players to track back in defence and press the Saints players in possession, some baffling individual errors, and panic when we did finally get the ball which led to over hit passes and hit-and-hope clearances; all held together with dreadful conditions.

I think youŽve summed it up pretty well there mate.

I was hoping to see us show we can grind out results as well as smashing in 4 or 5 goals, but from the start it was clearly going to be tough. Still at 2-1 we had a chance to pull off another come back (to answer GeoffŽs question, yes I didnŽt see any reason why not. Thought we might see Lucas and Hendo on for more control, with enough flair still on the pitch to get the goals). Opportunity missed, momentum lost.

"We just werenŽt very good" said BR (hopefully being honest enough to include himself in that). Got to have different strategies away from home and/or against the top sides surely? As good as the Saints were, and fair play to them, this was a shot in our own foot.

All the above moaning doesnŽt change my optimism that weŽre heading the right way. IŽd be more gutted if weŽd picked the right team and still got turned over.

[Kop10]

Hand on heart did anyone think even at 2-1 that we would get anything out of that game.

With Suarez on the pitch there's always hope.

[scottishRED]

The concern for me is different. The concern for me is that people are making rush judgments based on this season alone. It is clear that Rodgers has focused on the attack and build-up phases of the game. I thought and hoped that we would see some work done in the late stage of the season on the defence, but that hasn't materialised. However, that doesn't mean it won't happen next season. That's my issue. I think we'll see some changes defensively for next season, in personnel and coaching, and if we maintain the attacking side and increase the defensive structure, then we will be a lot further up the table. Too many people are extrapolating from one game, one aspect, and ignoring other factors, such as the progress of the attacking side of the game, and the fact that it's not even 12 months into Rodgers reign. He clearly knows he's not getting fired in the Summer, and he clearly knows there are plans to fix the defensive side. It's like the scene at the end of Snatch, where everyone is frozen in shock at the gunshots, but Brad Pitt is cool and calm, because he knows what's happening. I'm not putting too much stock into this season's defence. If it is the same at this point next season, though, then even I will be asking questions.

PoP - interested to hear your thoughts on this:  going back to the original OP, it asked what do we do to get more control of games to allow our attacking players - Coutinho, Sturridge et al - flourish.

The immediate reaction of this is to think - well we should play Henderson, and other hard working industrious pressing types, in our midfield, and we should sign defensive midfielders (Wanyama / Diame) this summer.

But I would come at this from a slightly different angle - I would say that the best way for us to get more control of games is to control more possession of the ball.  We don't want players who simply break up the opposition's attacks (though we need them in the squad as sometimes that is what we will need - but it shouldn't be plan A).  We want players with the ability to pass the ball, retain possession, and make the opposition work harder.  We want these players to work hard, and press all over the pitch, but primarily - once we are good enough at it - we really want only Lucas as our 'defensive' midfielder, and the rest to be hard working, but primarily skillful, passers and movers.

For me, that should be how we seek to control all games if we can.  Can this approach work in the premier league (in your opinion)?

[Sangria]

But I would come at this from a slightly different angle - I would say that the best way for us to get more control of games is to control more possession of the ball.  We don't want players who simply break up the opposition's attacks (though we need them in the squad as sometimes that is what we will need - but it shouldn't be plan A).  We want players with the ability to pass the ball, retain possession, and make the opposition work harder.  We want these players to work hard, and press all over the pitch, but primarily - once we are good enough at it - we really want only Lucas as our 'defensive' midfielder, and the rest to be hard working, but primarily skillful, passers and movers.

Good luck finding midfielders who can fit all these requirements to the desired level, given it looks like we're looking to replace 3 of our 4 CBs next summer. Cross your fingers and hope they all settle well, over and above being able to afford players of that level in such numbers.

[Bjørnebye84]

Agger and Skrtel are not good enough for Liverpool Football Club.

[Sangria]

Agger and Skrtel are not good enough for Liverpool Football Club.

I love your well-reasoned posts.

[John C]

Hand on heart did anyone think even at 2-1 that we would get anything out of that game.

I did until about the 70th minute mate when I felt had we snatched one up until then Southampton would retreat or lose sight of their well accomplished objective of pressing us high. Typically for us we ran out of time and the wrong subs at the wrong time thwarted the possibility of a comeback. We also frequently passed it backwards to the relief of Southampton, we did exactly what they needed us to.

But yes, I said at half time to the lads "we'll win this".

[Bjørnebye84]

I love your well-reasoned posts.

We have let in more goals away from home than Wigan and only one less than QPR. It's about time we bought a player near the same class as Hyypia, a proper leader.

[Sangria]

We have let in more goals away from home than Wigan and only one less than QPR. It's about time we bought a player near the same class as Hyypia, a proper leader.

What do you suggest we should do this summer?

[Snail]

Hand on heart did anyone think even at 2-1 that we would get anything out of that game.

Honestly, yes, I thought we could do it. I was fully aware of how badly we were playing but I suppose I let the Spurs result affect my thinking a bit. If only we could be one of those teams that could consistently grind out results no matter how good or bad our football was on the day.

Mentality is probably our biggest problem, as it has been for some time now.

[DanA]

We have let in more goals away from home than Wigan and only one less than QPR. It's about time we bought a player near the same class as Hyypia, a proper leader.

Curious did you watch the Euro's? Agger was brilliant and Skrtel wasn't half bad either.

[Bjørnebye84]

Curious did you watch the Euro's? Agger was brilliant and Skrtel wasn't half bad either.

If we're going by that Gary Breen once had a great tournament and was linked with Inter Milan. I'm watching Liverpool not the Euro's and they're not consistent enough. Even players like Dawson, Cahill and Jagielka are more reliable at the back.

[Sangria]

If we're going by that Gary Breen once had a great tournament and was linked with Inter Milan. I'm watching Liverpool not the Euro's and they're not consistent enough. Even players like Dawson, Cahill and Jagielka are more reliable at the back.

05-06 (Agger comes in): conceded 25, 2nd best in league.
06-07 (Skrtel comes in): conceded 27, 2nd best in league.
07-08: conceded 28, 3rd best in league.
08-09: conceded 27, 3rd best in league.
09-10: conceded 35, 3rd best in league.
10-11: conceded 44, 6th best in league (if we filter for Dalglish's reign, we're 3rd in the league for goals conceded per game).
11-12 (1st season without Carragher as a regular): conceded 40, 3rd best in league.

[Twelfth Man]

Honestly, yes, I thought we could do it. I was fully aware of how badly we were playing but I suppose I let the Spurs result affect my thinking a bit. If only we could be one of those teams that could consistently grind out results no matter how good or bad our football was on the day.

Mentality is probably our biggest problem, as it has been for some time now.

Mentality, I wonder if the the Spanish think about such things. Trap the ball, pass it. How hard can it be?

[BUSHMILLS]

Mentality, I wonder if the the Spanish think about such things. Trap the ball, pass it. How hard can it be?

You don't think 'mentality' plays a part in Man Utd's consistent ability to come back from one, two or even three nil down?

[Twelfth Man]

You don't think 'mentality' plays a part in Man Utd's consistent ability to come back from one, two or even three nil down?

In the League, yes. Does not translate so well in Europe, where a little more subtly is required.

[BUSHMILLS]

In the League, yes. Does not translate so well in Europe, where a little more subtly is required.

Well, Siann was referring to the match against Southampton.

I agree with you about subtlety in Europe. But we actually have to qualify first. And that requires mentality.

[Sangria]

Well, Siann was referring to the match against Southampton.

I agree with you about subtlety in Europe. But we actually have to qualify first. And that requires mentality.

And if we're going to replace a large chunk of our defence in one go as you suggest, we'll need money too. Not to mention luck, as shown by our success rate with CBs in the Souness and Evans eras. Our current lot are deities compared with that bunch, and you reckon it's a good idea to jump into the unknown without any safety net.

[Timbo's Goals]

The reason that Aurelio and Lucas got overrun in that game was because none of the three players upfront (Torres, Gerrard and Benayoun) could hold onto the ball. The midfielders kept delivering inch-perfect passes to the forwards' feet, then moved upfield to support, only to be overrun a few seconds later by a Fiorentina counterattack. The missing glue was on the forwards' boots.

Ha ha. More posts please.

 

[spider-neil]

Brendan is going 4-2-4 but unfortunately the 4 attacking players aren't pressing so it's leaving too much work for the midfield 2. If the midfield 2 had more mobility then it wouldn't be a problem but they don't. I think we either need to return to 4-3-3 and drop an attacker for a midfielder who is going to provide more solidity (for example Henderson for Downing) or if we are intent on playing with 4 attackers we need a holding midfielder with more mobility and energy than Lucas.

That said if we finally perfect holding a defensive line and (imho) we are currently nowhere near good enough to leave space in behind the defenders but if/when we start pushing high up the pitch then the likes of Lucas will have less ground to cover therefore his lack of pace wont be an issue.

[adamski29]

Great thread but something's missing for me - the attitude of some of the players stank.  I mean really stank.  Johnson couldn't be arsed - was just going through the motions - and Gerrard wasn't a lot better.  Downing's been so much better in recent weeks but was back to his lame previous incarnation on Saturday too.  Sturridge looked frustrated at the lack of any service too.

Anybody else pick up on this or am I in a minority of one here?

You are not wrong. Rodgers may have gotten away with the way he set up if the players had decided to role up the re sleeves, but they did the opposite.
If Suarez was on form as he has been lately and had on of his many recent worldies , you could have set any way you liked and he would have put them to the sword, aided and abetted by Sturridge et al.

I think rodgers toyed with the idea of capitalising on our recent good attacking play, allied to the fact that Southampton play a high line, in the run up to the game. Then when Lucas picked up a knock, instead of reassessing the situation hhe decided not to change tack, which in hindsight is easy to say,,was the wrong decision.

But back to your main point. Yes the commitment of the players, senior players In particular was shocking.
Gerrard was the one I noticed most because he is captain. He literally strolled around in occasions while Southampton ran through our midfield. It was as if he decided "well this isn't going to work is it" then decided to "not work" himself.
He wasn't the only one obviously.

[Mutton Geoff]

Heres a thought have most of Stevie's less energetic games come just before an international break this season?

However the whole team wasnt on song so cannot just single out any player, not helped by the fact the team was set up wrong anyway, so bad day at the office for everybody, and a good Southampton team took advantage of that.

[Draex]

Heres a thought have most of Stevie's less energetic games come just before an international break this season?

However the whole team wasnt on song so cannot just single out any player, not helped by the fact the team was set up wrong anyway, so bad day at the office for everybody, and a good Southampton team took advantage of that.

Stevie has needed to retire from international duty for years as everytime he plays for England its a detrement to Liverpool and his form. Not going to happen though, he waited long enough for the Captaincy.