Topic: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?

[Elmo!]

Letting her back in would encourage others to do the same, there has to be a deterrent to would be terrorists and their idiotic parents.

The deterrent would be whatever the courts sentence her to, if she is found guilty.

[Henry Gale]

The deterrent would be whatever the courts sentence her to, if she is found guilty.

Prison life would probably be in better conditions than what she had in Syria.

[The North Bank]

The deterrent would be whatever the courts sentence her to, if she is found guilty.

Revoking citizenship would be a far bigger deterrent. I don't think the threat of prison alone does it.

[Elmo!]

Revoking citizenship would be a far bigger deterrent. I don't think the threat of prison alone does it.

I'm sure it would, doesn't make it the right thing to do. She is our responsibility as a country to deal with, not Syria's, not Bangladesh, nor any other country.

[classycarra]

Letting her back in would encourage others to do the same, there has to be a deterrent to would be terrorists and their idiotic parents.

Like detention centres and prison maybe?

[gazzalfc]

Revoking citizenship would be a far bigger deterrent. I don't think the threat of prison alone does it.

Revoking citizenship through legal due process either by a trial of her peers or through means set out by international law. Only once all other means of deterrent are exhausted should someone be stripped of their citizenship.

Having a single politician deciding a persons immigration status following trial by media should not be the way we handle this situation regardless of the crime committed. We are a better society than that and we should strive to be that way

[Kenny's Jacket]

In order of priority, I think it would be de-radicalisation, rehabilitation, punishment. But then it's not clear that there would in fact be any punishment to be administered, as the only known offences at this stage are the original move to Syria to live under ISIS; which occurred as a 15 year old and I believe the police said at the time that the group of girls from Bethnal Green would not be prosecuted for that, if they returned. Holding unpopular, extreme and delusional views is not itself a criminal offence.

However, joining ISIS is a Criminal Offence. I hope to fuck what the Police meant was they wouldnt be prosecuted if they returned straight away, not once she had caused the death of her first two kids and, has another and knows the game is up.  It's frightening that we have British Citizens who think joining ISIS shouldn't be punished.

Similarly questions about how much de-radicalisation and monitoring would cost I don't think are really relevant. That's one of the many, many things we all (including her parents and other family members, presumably) pay taxes for. There's a legal and moral obligation resulting from her being a British citizen, regardless of what the financial cost of that is.

I pay taxes to help support the Poor and vulnerable and to build infrastructure. Maybe we are different on that one too.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

However, joining ISIS is a Criminal Offence. I hope to fuck what the Police meant was they wouldnt be prosecuted if they returned straight away, not once she had caused the death of her first two kids and, has another and knows the game is up.  It's frightening that we have British Citizens who think joining ISIS shouldn't be punished.


I pay taxes to help support the Poor and vulnerable and to build infrastructure. Maybe we are different on that one too.

Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.And you pay taxes to fund the running of the state,end of story.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.And you pay taxes to fund the running of the state,end of story.

Face facts, if those two kids were born here, chances are they are still alive, a deluded fool can see that. Seriously baffles me the support she gets on here.

I am also entitled to hope how taxes are spent, its a facet of the the democratic system we have. End of story.

[redmark]

However, joining ISIS is a Criminal Offence. I hope to fuck what the Police meant was they wouldnt be prosecuted if they returned straight away, not once she had caused the death of her first two kids and, has another and knows the game is up.  It's frightening that we have British Citizens who think joining ISIS shouldn't be punished.

I pay taxes to help support the Poor and vulnerable and to build infrastructure. Maybe we are different on that one too.

You're not very good at surmising what I think, so don't do it. She travelled to Syria and joined ISIS as a minor. About 10% of people returning from Syria have actually been charged/convicted/imprisoned for such an offence. It is unlikely to be the result in this case - and if it were, it's not going to be a life imprisonment.

No, you pay taxes to support whatever programmes the government implements. That includes PREVENT, anti-terrorism and anti-extremism programmes. We don't get to choose which British citizens are eligible for NHS care, nor which British citizens justify PREVENT expenditure. And the alternatives here seem to be to render her stateless (which is unlawful), deny her re-entry (which is unlawful) or I suppose an extra-judicial assasination would remove the problem (which is unlawful).

I don't believe that people joining terrorist organisations should not be punished. I believe in the application of the law. Laws aren't to be applied in 'easy' cases and ignored when a situation is more difficult and troublesome.

[vagabond]

Some excellent posts from Redmark over the last couple of pages.

[Kenny's Jacket]

You're not very good at surmising what I think, so don't do it. She travelled to Syria and joined ISIS as a minor. About 10% of people returning from Syria have actually been charged/convicted/imprisoned for such an offence. It is unlikely to be the result in this case - and if it were, it's not going to be a life imprisonment.

Two wrongs dont make a right, all returning ISIS members should be punished.

I don't believe that people joining terrorist organisations should not be punished. I believe in the application of the law. Laws aren't to be applied in 'easy' cases and ignored when a situation is more difficult and troublesome.

Well your reply to what you would like to see happen to her had punishment last on the last have treatment, I think it's natural to infer that you are not keen on punishing her. If I am wrong feel free to correct me

No, you pay taxes to support whatever programmes the government implements. That includes PREVENT, anti-terrorism and anti-extremism programmes. We don't get to choose which British citizens are eligible for NHS care, nor which British citizens justify PREVENT expenditure. And the alternatives here seem to be to render her stateless (which is unlawful), deny her re-entry (which is unlawful) or I suppose an extra-judicial assasination would remove the problem (which is unlawful). 

PREVENT  is presumably to prevent people becoming terrorists, bit late for that with Begum. Ive not mentioned the NHS, poor surmising there  .

Now on this tax thing; I do not condone or support the idea of revoking her Passport. However given your view on the tax system, you would be  for your tax to be spent on Lawyers to fight a case on behalf of the Government to make her stateless? I am guessing you wouldn't. Well I also would not be happy to see the tax payer support the poor little lamb to have a load of unnecessary 'care'
 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Face facts, if those two kids were born here, chances are they are still alive, a deluded fool can see that. Seriously baffles me the support she gets on here.

I am also entitled to hope how taxes are spent, its a facet of the the democratic system we have. End of story.

Were she still here then those two Children would not have been born in the first place,any deluded fool can understand that surely.

It's also not about supporting her is it,I would suggest the problem is your end if you cannot understand that


You can hope how your taxes are spent but that hope doesn't do shit,our taxes also paid for the bombs that that radicalised so many our British Muslims and the anti choice twats taxes also pay for abortions.

[redmark]

Two wrongs dont make a right, all returning ISIS members should be punished.

Well your reply to what you would like to see happen to her had punishment last on the last have treatment, I think it's natural to infer that you are not keen on punishing her. If I am wrong feel free to correct me

PREVENT  is presumably to prevent people becoming terrorists, bit late for that with Begum. Ive not mentioned the NHS, poor surmising there  .

Now on this tax thing; I do not condone or support the idea of revoking her Passport. However given your view on the tax system, you would be  for your tax to be spent on Lawyers to fight a case on behalf of the Government to make her stateless? I am guessing you wouldn't. Well I also would not be happy to see the tax payer support the poor little lamb to have a load of unnecessary 'care'

I don't view 'punishment' as the primary response to any crime; in order of priority, safeguard (by removing from society if necessary), rehabilitate.

PREVENT is to prevent, but also to de-radicalise.

It's not a question of whether I'm happy for my taxes to be spent on this policy or that policy; it's not a choice. 'We' elect a government. 'We' pay taxes. The government determines how those tax revenues are spent. The obvious starting point is that they should be spent lawfully, but generally "my tax money should/shouldn't be spent XYZ" are silly. That's not how taxes and government work.

[thejbs]

She was a 15-year-old ffs! This was a girl who was groomed and statutorily raped.

There are plenty of terrorists, people who bombed and killed people, walking the streets of the UK. It was deemed a price worth paying for peace in NI. 

Revoking her citizenship will only entrench issues further. It'll give extremists valuable ammunition in a propaganda war. The propaganda that helps further radicalise kids like Shamima.

By all means, prosecute her for offences she has made, but let her come back to the country she was born and grew up in.

[Brian Blessed]

Just a couple of quick questions - How much does it cost the taxpayer to gather this information and monitor such a person like this? And how long do they have to do it for?

However long is deemed necessary. If the alternative is to revoke citizenship and shove her off on someone else, then I don't see another way.

[classycarra]

Face facts, if those two kids were born here, chances are they are still alive, a deluded fool can see that. Seriously baffles me the support she gets on here.

I am also entitled to hope how taxes are spent, its a facet of the the democratic system we have. End of story.

What facts can you share about the two babies that didn’t survive? I’d be interested in the medical notes you’ve seen, because I haven’t seen them published anywhere. In fact I’ve not even read corroboration that it definitely happened either. So please feel free to bring sole actual facts to the table.

Also, your repeated referral to taxes has piqued my interest. Do you pay UK taxes while you’re based in Malaysia?

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

It's a good thread but there are two themes here that perhaps need the spotlight. You (generally speaking) need to take a step back from the logical when you say we did a, b, or c as a country, as a community to radicalise this kid or that. See a logical kid sees the UK part of a coalition bombing a Muslim country and may get angry. Yet, it doesn't need logic at all for a lot of people to sink their identity seekers onto something. Over the years, from what I've seen of a lot of the foreign crowd, these are fundamentally defective people, and that is the bigger issue imo. A lot of problems, some from their family, some self-made in their lives and that's them looking for a release, something to hang on to. This mechanism has nothing to do with the finer points of Islam.

To use a facile example, no 4 in class can see a Muslim brother get the shit kicked out of him on Saturday night for nothing, notes it, weighs it up against the positives - quality of life, ease of upward mobility, a generally fair system of government, environmental standards, consumer protection etc etc and makes his call. No 40 in class sees that brother filled in, blanks everything out and uses it to form a crusade of aggression. This crowd of foreign wannabes looking for a cause, I would say they're a lot more no 40 than 4.

This personal profile comes before everything else, always, when it comes to assessing a person. Go easy on the self-flagellation, the geopolitical issues are there and need to be worked on of course, but there are bigger factors in play in shaping the minds of these kids.

Secondly, I don't think she's getting much support on here at all, so no need to accuse anyone of that. Most versions of let her in to stand trial posted on here involve her then being prisoned / rehabbed and the kid getting taken away, she's actually better off being kept away compared to this scenario; strong UK currency, she can buy a comfortable life for the kid and herself with support from her parents in the hinterlands of an amenable country. The big mistake was being exposed to the publicity, for a number of reasons.

[So… Howard Philips]

Prison life would probably be in better conditions than what she had in Syria.

There's no heads dumped in bins at least in prison.

Not that she would be fazed.

[carling]

How would you describe what Jim Jones and all the other Cult leaders managed to do ?

This article tries to talk about it: https://theconversation.com/the-brainwashing-myth-99272

Even in those extreme cases there isn't any scientific basis to describe it as brainwashing.

[rob1966]

Genuine question, due to her joining ISIS and them encouraging the committing bombings and other fatal attacks on UK soil, is she guilty of treason?

[classycarra]

Genuine question, due to her joining ISIS and them encouraging the committing bombings and other fatal attacks on UK soil, is she guilty of treason?

I doubt it, though it's not my area. There will be more pertinent (and modern) legislation, I'd imagine.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Genuine question, due to her joining ISIS and them encouraging the committing bombings and other fatal attacks on UK soil, is she guilty of treason?

FFS

Let's take her to the Tower of London

Revenge is sweet hey!

[rob1966]

FFS

Revenge is sweet hey!

For Fucks Sake what you arrogant prick? Its a genuine question, by going abroad and joining a terrorist organisation that has committed attacks on the UK, does that count as treason? Can she be charged with it or is the worst offence that anyone who went to join ISIS committed is joining a terrorist organisation?

[classycarra]

For Fucks Sake what you arrogant prick? Its a genuine question, by going abroad and joining a terrorist organisation that has committed attacks on the UK, does that count as treason? Can she be charged with it or is the worst offence that anyone who went to join ISIS committed is joining a terrorist organisation?

Some discussion on this here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44954200

[electricghost]

Genuine question, due to her joining ISIS and them encouraging the committing bombings and other fatal attacks on UK soil, is she guilty of treason?

Possibly yes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29655099

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Possibly yes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29655099

Then so are 100's if not 1000's of others.

it's ridiculous how vengeful so many are.

[electricghost]

Then so are 100's if not 1000's of others.

it's ridiculous how vengeful so many are.

For clarity, I don't think she should be tried for treason, I was answering a question about the possibility of it.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

For clarity, I don't think she should be tried for treason, I was answering a question about the possibility of it.

I know.

My post wasn't directed at you.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Possibly yes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29655099

That is about the fighters though mate,she doesn't even qualify for losing her passport under the precedents that the gov has already set.


Javid has made himself look like a total dickhead & all to try and gain a few kippers for his leadership run.

[AndyMuller]

What happens then if she comes back, gets sent to prison, does a short sentence and is back out with the potential to radicalise others?

Say if there is another attack in this country further down the line and she has something to do with it?

Will we all be saying "ah but she's a british citizen she has the rights to do this"?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

What happens then if she comes back, gets sent to prison, does a short sentence and is back out with the potential to radicalise others?

Say if there is another attack in this country further down the line and she has something to do with it?

Will we all be saying "ah but she's a british citizen she has the rights to do this"?

If they treat her like they have the 400+ that have also returned I doubt she will get a custodial.There are lots more radical nutters in the country to worry about than a young lady who ran away aged 15.


What if,what if,what if ? ? ?     She is a British Citizen,born and bred,end of story.

[electricghost]

That is about the fighters though mate,she doesn't even qualify for losing her passport under the precedents that the gov has already set.


Javid has made himself look like a total dickhead & all to try and gain a few kippers for his leadership run.

"The last UK prosecution for treason was in 1946, when William Joyce was hanged for Nazi propaganda broadcasts."

No fighting involved in the last prosecution.

Look it is very unlikely that will happen in her case given that others returning haven't been tried for treason, but it is not impossible.

[AndyMuller]

If they treat her like they have the 400+ that have also returned I doubt she will get a custodial.There are lots more radical nutters in the country to worry about than a young lady who ran away aged 15.


What if,what if,what if ? ? ?     She is a British Citizen,born and bred,end of story.

She’s not 15 now though is she and she’s still not showing any remorse for the terrorist groups actions that she joined either is she?

Fuck her off.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

There are lots more radical nutters in the country to worry about than a young lady who ran away aged 15.


What if,what if,what if ? ? ?     She is a British Citizen,born and bred,end of story.

Exactly.

This is being blown way out of proportion.

[Brian Blessed]

What happens then if she comes back, gets sent to prison, does a short sentence and is back out with the potential to radicalise others?

Say if there is another attack in this country further down the line and she has something to do with it?

Will we all be saying "ah but she's a british citizen she has the rights to do this"?

So just fuck her off so she can do that in another country?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

She’s not 15 now though is she and she’s still not showing any remorse for the terrorist groups actions that she joined either is she?

Fuck her off.

Cannot make her stateless no matter how much some would like us to.

[M_B]

She’s not 15 now though is she and she’s still not showing any remorse for the terrorist groups actions that she joined either is she?

Fuck her off.

There might be reasons for that? Stockholm Syndrome. Brainwashing since the age of 15. Being surrounded by terrorists when giving the interview.

Not sure why she can't return and be tried for any crimes. Or are we afraid our justice system won't be able to do the job?

[AndyMuller]

So just fuck her off so she can do that in another country?

Just leave her we’re she is.

[AndyMuller]

There might be reasons for that? Stockholm Syndrome. Brainwashing since the age of 15. Being surrounded by terrorists when giving the interview.

Not sure why she can't return and be tried for any crimes. Or are we afraid our justice system won't be able to do the job?

Of course it won’t. She won’t even do any time and will end up receiving benefits and using the NHS freely when she likes.