Author Topic: The War In Afghanistan  (Read 87328 times)

Offline stevensr123

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #160 on: August 12, 2021, 11:53:14 pm »
Trump signed the agreement with the Taliban to be out by May 2021, Biden pushed it back to August 31st.
so Biden should continue policies trump enacted then? Eh? Stop passing the buck. It’s a shite decision and delivery method.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #161 on: August 13, 2021, 12:46:56 am »
so Biden should continue policies trump enacted then? Eh? Stop passing the buck. It’s a shite decision and delivery method.

You reckon countries should unilaterally revoke international agreements?
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Offline Garrus

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #162 on: August 13, 2021, 05:41:34 am »
so Biden should continue policies trump enacted then? Eh? Stop passing the buck. It’s a shite decision and delivery method.
If he did the opposite, you know exactly well how it would have been spun.

"Trump wanted to bring our boys home but Biden the warmonger wants to keep feeding the Democratic war machine" and I'd say that opinion would probably be parroted on these threads too.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #163 on: August 13, 2021, 06:03:33 am »
I do think American presidents do owe a duty of care more for their own citizens (i.e. soldiers) lives than the concerns of other countries so I can understand the logic of the withdrawal.

But from a geopolitical perspective and regional perspective, it is a fucking dire situation which they could have helped to avoid.

I guess the moral question is, have they repaid the damage they themselves did and is the war & occupation itself to blame for the atrocities currently occurring there? I haven't analysed it closely enough to have a strong opinion, but my sense is that the things the Taliban are currently doing have little to do with the fact that the Americans went in (but maybe im totally wrong)

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #164 on: August 13, 2021, 06:45:01 am »
so Biden should continue policies trump enacted then? Eh? Stop passing the buck. It’s a shite decision and delivery method.


So you think that he should have told them to fuck off and returned to being an occupying force  ?
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Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #165 on: August 13, 2021, 08:49:20 am »
If he did the opposite, you know exactly well how it would have been spun.

"Trump wanted to bring our boys home but Biden the warmonger wants to keep feeding the Democratic war machine" and I'd say that opinion would probably be parroted on these threads too.


Its opposition for oppositions sake. There's no thought anymore.

How do you turn a peace loving, anti imperialist, anti war campaigner into an imperialist, bloodthirsty warmonger?

Get a US or Brirish government to pull out of Afganistan.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #166 on: August 13, 2021, 09:41:06 am »
I do think American presidents do owe a duty of care more for their own citizens (i.e. soldiers) lives than the concerns of other countries so I can understand the logic of the withdrawal.

But from a geopolitical perspective and regional perspective, it is a fucking dire situation which they could have helped to avoid.

I guess the moral question is, have they repaid the damage they themselves did and is the war & occupation itself to blame for the atrocities currently occurring there? I haven't analysed it closely enough to have a strong opinion, but my sense is that the things the Taliban are currently doing have little to do with the fact that the Americans went in (but maybe im totally wrong)

What the Taliban are now doing have absolutely nothing to do with the US, other than having to recapture territory that had been taken from them. It's entirely their own responsibility, and can't be blamed on the Americans.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #167 on: August 13, 2021, 10:28:34 am »
What the Taliban are now doing have absolutely nothing to do with the US, other than having to recapture territory that had been taken from them. It's entirely their own responsibility, and can't be blamed on the Americans.
So. There will be no retaliation by the Taliban against Afghan citizens who worked with the Americans in any capacity? I think it fair to expect widespread atrocities against a very large number of Afghans. So, yeah, the responsibility for the consequences the US pullout will (rightly) fall upon US shoulders.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 02:29:18 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Offline stevensr123

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #168 on: August 13, 2021, 10:39:28 am »

So you think that he should have told them to fuck off and returned to being an occupying force  ?
he should have kept the troops there in the current role - assisting and training Afghan forces and remaining as a buffer.

There has been minimal US deaths for years now, and the positives remaining there outway the negatives in terms of geopolitical and deaths for Afghan citizens.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #169 on: August 13, 2021, 10:49:47 am »
So. There will be no retaliation by the Taliban against Afghani citizens who worked with the Americans in any capacity? I think it fair to expect widespread atrocities against a very large number of Afghani. So, yeah, the responsibility for the consequences the US pullout will (rightly) fall upon US shoulders.

It's the Taliban's responsibility what they choose to do with the Afghans under their control. The US may decide to take on some of that responsibility by taking out those they deem vulnerable. But it's the Taliban's fault, not the US.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #170 on: August 13, 2021, 10:51:23 am »
he should have kept the troops there in the current role - assisting and training Afghan forces and remaining as a buffer.

There has been minimal US deaths for years now, and the positives remaining there outway the negatives in terms of geopolitical and deaths for Afghan citizens.

The US government signed that away. Unless you want the US to now unilaterally abrogate international agreements and occupy countries because "it's right".
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #171 on: August 13, 2021, 11:13:52 am »
It's the Taliban's responsibility what they choose to do with the Afghans under their control. The US may decide to take on some of that responsibility by taking out those they deem vulnerable. But it's the Taliban's fault, not the US.
:o I have no idea of how to respond to that.
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #172 on: August 13, 2021, 11:26:10 am »
What amazes me, is that we had people out on the streets protesting about there being troops in Afghanistan.

But no one is protesting about their withdrawal and the supremacy of the brutal and heinously cruel theocracy that is taking their place

Wait till a bomb goes off in one of their cities.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #173 on: August 13, 2021, 11:28:52 am »
:o I have no idea of how to respond to that.

You can wish that the US can do more. But stop pinning the blame on the US for the evils of others. It's not up to America to make the world perfect. That line of thinking was what led to Iraq, that it's the west's responsibility to go out and make the world better by spreading democracy.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #174 on: August 13, 2021, 11:30:55 am »
Wait till a bomb goes off in one of their cities.

Would the bomb be because the Americans left other countries to their own devices and thus free to harbour terrorism, or would it be because America is occupying other countries and thus giving these anti-imperialists reason to resist against the American imperialists?
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #175 on: August 13, 2021, 12:29:30 pm »
Would the bomb be because the Americans left other countries to their own devices and thus free to harbour terrorism, or would it be because America is occupying other countries and thus giving these anti-imperialists reason to resist against the American imperialists?

Depends on what's motivating the terrorists. Either they don't want you in their homeland or they don't want you to exist.
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Offline scatman

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #176 on: August 13, 2021, 01:15:51 pm »
I think it was the right choice to leave Afghanistan. It has the tribal makeup that is for eg affecting Ethiopia now. You can try your best to get a society to move forward and move beyond tribal loyalties, but we see it all over the globe, it's difficult. Who are we to impose our ideals of government on people who don't want that? These tribal insecurities are rife across Africa (Nigeria, Ethiopia) and in some Asian countries (Lebanon a prime example too). Of course the sad part about this is you leave people like the Taliban to take over because they have the one thing that can possibly unite those tribes that the Government don't - Islam.

As long as sky wizard worshipping is prevalent, as long as people continue to think along tribal lines, states will continue to be on the brink of failure or be failed states.

Afghanistan has the added difficulty of its terrain that makes it difficult for any central government being able to have any effective control. If you have a look at a map and look at the road systems, the mountains, the entry points into the country, it is very difficult to have a centralised power that can control all of the country especially a democratic one.

Reminds me of an old indian tale about Alexander the Great talking to an old Indian mystic in funnily enough Afghanistan at the time. The mystic said that Alexander's empire was so vast and covered too many cultures that he would never be able to control all of it for long. He gave him a sort of cloth(?), asked him to step on one side and showed him that the other side would rise up, Alexander said i'll step in the middle, when he did that, the sides either side of his foot rose up.

Fuck knows if it's true but I always think of Afghanistan when I hear because of the mountain ranges that split the country up. Kabul is basically in a fucked up position. It's locked by mountains on multiple sides. Transpose a road map over a terrain map of Afghanistan and you'll see that multiple cities are not directly linked to the capital, in fact to get to a lot of them, there are either tricky roads or huge diverted routes through other cities. Herat is directly west of Kabul - there is a direct road, however its a shit road through the mountains, a road that can be easily blockaded or even destroyed  - a logistical nightmare. There is a longer route, a more safer route south through Kandahar but that increases the time logistically for trucks etc by double. For just a car its 70% longer.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #177 on: August 13, 2021, 01:41:37 pm »
he should have kept the troops there in the current role - assisting and training Afghan forces and remaining as a buffer.

There has been minimal US deaths for years now, and the positives remaining there outway the negatives in terms of geopolitical and deaths for Afghan citizens.

Problem is the US spent years training forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and as soon as they left it became very apparent those forces weren’t up to the job as ISIS and the Taliban have shown. I’m not convinced another 10 years or training would have made any difference when the last 10 odd years of training hasn’t produced much in terms of results when the Islamists come storming at them.
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Offline jonnypb

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #178 on: August 13, 2021, 01:52:30 pm »
Problem is the US spent years training forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and as soon as they left it became very apparent those forces weren’t up to the job as ISIS and the Taliban have shown. I’m not convinced another 10 years or training would have made any difference when the last 10 odd years of training hasn’t produced much in terms of results when the Islamists come storming at them.

I think more time and training would improve things, but not to a point where local Afghan forces could control the fight against ISIS and the Tailban.

Countries made the decision to go into Afghan and they should have stayed until the job was finished, if that means having a permanent presence there, then that should have happened.  Kabul is on the verge of being taken over, so what's going to happen in months to come?  It won't be long until they have control of Afghan, then what will happen?  Will we let the Taliban do what they want in Afghan, will we go back to 2001 and try to take control again and see mass casualty's?

Like it was mentioned above, there's been minimal deaths over the last few years and the positives have outweighed the negatives by having troops in Afghan.  The withdrawal has just been one major f**k up.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #179 on: August 13, 2021, 02:05:43 pm »
I think more time and training would improve things, but not to a point where local Afghan forces could control the fight against ISIS and the Tailban.

Countries made the decision to go into Afghan and they should have stayed until the job was finished, if that means having a permanent presence there, then that should have happened.  Kabul is on the verge of being taken over, so what's going to happen in months to come?  It won't be long until they have control of Afghan, then what will happen?  Will we let the Taliban do what they want in Afghan, will we go back to 2001 and try to take control again and see mass casualty's?

Like it was mentioned above, there's been minimal deaths over the last few years and the positives have outweighed the negatives by having troops in Afghan.  The withdrawal has just been one major f**k up.

The US went into Afghanistan because the Afghan government (Taliban) would not give up Osama Bin Laden, who was wanted for attacking the US homeland. Everything else is assumed duty and responsibility. But the original aim was to punish the Afghan government for harbouring this enemy of the US.

BTW, what would you say to the accusation that the US occupation of Afghanistan is imperialism, to enable the construction of oil pipelines from central Asia to the Indian Ocean? What would be your counter argument when it's Muslims making that accusation?
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #180 on: August 13, 2021, 02:17:12 pm »
he should have kept the troops there in the current role - assisting and training Afghan forces and remaining as a buffer.

There has been minimal US deaths for years now, and the positives remaining there outway the negatives in terms of geopolitical and deaths for Afghan citizens.



But the Afghans wanted them out.

So the question remains,should he have told them to fuck off and returned to being an occupying force ?
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Offline scatman

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #181 on: August 13, 2021, 02:56:38 pm »


But the Afghans wanted them out.

So the question remains,should he have told them to fuck off and returned to being an occupying force ?

That's basically it, they wanted the US to leave. The US left.
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Offline TSC

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #182 on: August 13, 2021, 06:20:31 pm »
Appears to be only a matter of time before the Taliban control the whole country.  Potentially then a quick return to an environment similar to the one that existed before the west went in.  Ie a breeding ground for increased terrorism against the west.

Offline jonnypb

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #183 on: August 13, 2021, 06:46:02 pm »
Appears to be only a matter of time before the Taliban control the whole country.  Potentially then a quick return to an environment similar to the one that existed before the west went in.  Ie a breeding ground for increased terrorism against the west.

Which brings us back to square one. All those service people lost their lives for what?

Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #184 on: August 13, 2021, 06:52:51 pm »
Which brings us back to square one. All those service people lost their lives for what?

Sunk cost fallacy.

What are you prepared to do to make Afghanistan a success by your standards? By you, I mean what measures are you prepared to stomach?
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #185 on: August 13, 2021, 07:57:05 pm »
Sunk cost fallacy.

What are you prepared to do to make Afghanistan a success by your standards? By you, I mean what measures are you prepared to stomach?
Cripes, Sangria. You are on a roll today. It is all a bit too ultra-Libertarian for my tastes.
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Offline jonnypb

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #186 on: August 13, 2021, 08:00:10 pm »
Sunk cost fallacy.

What are you prepared to do to make Afghanistan a success by your standards? By you, I mean what measures are you prepared to stomach?

You seem happy for Afghan to go to shit again and for the extremists to then have the power to do whatever they want to do.

With all the lives lost during the war I don’t think anything can be considered a success.

Did you have anyone close to you involved with the Afghan war.

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #187 on: August 13, 2021, 08:17:09 pm »
Ie a breeding ground for increased terrorism against the west.

Methinks they'll have their hands full with all the beheadings, subjugations, bombings and tyrannical shite within their own 'borders'.

An unmitigated horrorshitshow headed for Sharia.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #188 on: August 13, 2021, 08:41:12 pm »
You seem happy for Afghan to go to shit again and for the extremists to then have the power to do whatever they want to do.

With all the lives lost during the war I don’t think anything can be considered a success.

Did you have anyone close to you involved with the Afghan war.

No I don't. But I've seen British Pakistanis advance the oil pipeline theory and accusations aimed at the US of imperialism based on this. What would be your response to western Muslims accusing you of supporting a new oil-founded imperialism?
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Offline stevensr123

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #189 on: August 13, 2021, 09:54:36 pm »
When is the far left, anti-war, holier-than-thou people going to start protesting over the fact a country is about to be taken over by a bunch of terror loving, women oppressing, gay murdering cult?

Ah I see - absolutely nothing.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #190 on: August 13, 2021, 09:56:07 pm »
When is the far left, anti-war, holier-than-thou people going to start protesting over the fact a country is about to be taken over by a bunch of terror loving, women oppressing, gay murdering cult?

Ah I see - absolutely nothing.

Look what happened when Tony Blair removed a regime with your above description. Members of his own party are still trying to get him into The Hague to be tried for war crimes.
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Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #191 on: August 13, 2021, 10:44:00 pm »
Cripes, Sangria. You are on a roll today. It is all a bit too ultra-Libertarian for my tastes.

It's an ugly way of putting it but the overall point is worth making. The US/UK have been in Afghanistan for 20 years now. The Soviets spent a decade trying to enforce their will on the country to no avail. All the evidence points towards it being an unwinnable war. We should never have been there in the first place but you can't let that historical error bind you into sending soldiers out to die in a conflict that has no prospect of 'success'.

For me the only justified reason to keep troops out there would be if it was in concert with the political/logistical will to enable a mass migration of the Afghani citizens who don't want to live under the Taliban out of the country to the West or to more moderate Middle Eastern/Asian states.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 10:58:45 pm by Sammy5IsAlive »

Offline Sangria

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #192 on: August 14, 2021, 12:27:32 am »
It's an ugly way of putting it but the overall point is worth making. The US/UK have been in Afghanistan for 20 years now. The Soviets spent a decade trying to enforce their will on the country to no avail. All the evidence points towards it being an unwinnable war. We should never have been there in the first place but you can't let that historical error bind you into sending soldiers out to die in a conflict that has no prospect of 'success'.

For me the only justified reason to keep troops out there would be if it was in concert with the political/logistical will to enable a mass migration of the Afghani citizens who don't want to live under the Taliban out of the country to the West or to more moderate Middle Eastern/Asian states.

It depends on what people are prepared to do to win it. I've asked the question a number of times of people who want the US to stay the course to successful completion. None have answered the question.
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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #193 on: August 14, 2021, 08:18:49 am »
Methinks they'll have their hands full with all the beheadings, subjugations, bombings and tyrannical shite within their own 'borders'.

An unmitigated horrorshitshow headed for Sharia.

In all honesty, if the people of Afghanistan want a Sharia inspired horror show, then let them. As long as they keep it in their own borders they can do whatever the hell they want. To varying degrees most of the Islamic world isn’t too different, some of them just have oil and money, but strip that away and they are all pretty similar.
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Offline OOS

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #194 on: August 14, 2021, 08:28:14 am »
When is the far left, anti-war, holier-than-thou people going to start protesting over the fact a country is about to be taken over by a bunch of terror loving, women oppressing, gay murdering cult?

Ah I see - absolutely nothing.

Ha. STW will say we don't comment on foreign goverments/ states, just to challenge 'Britain's warmongering' but when it comes to Israel....

Just waiting on the Free Afghanistan/ Stop The Taliban rallies this weekend in solidarity with Afghan citizens during this horrific time.... oh, Jews aren't the 'oppressors' so they aren't bothered

Home Office have been a disgrace. TB at the gates of Kabul, and we have fucked up airlifting Afghan support staff out. They are good enough to work and serve along our soldiers, but not good enough to live with us??
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 06:40:48 pm by OOS »
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Offline TSC

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #195 on: August 14, 2021, 10:41:45 am »
In all honesty, if the people of Afghanistan want a Sharia inspired horror show, then let them. As long as they keep it in their own borders they can do whatever the hell they want. To varying degrees most of the Islamic world isn’t too different, some of them just have oil and money, but strip that away and they are all pretty similar.

Likely see a return to this sort of ‘justice’.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36236567

Offline west_london_red

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #196 on: August 14, 2021, 01:39:40 pm »
Likely see a return to this sort of ‘justice’.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36236567

No different in Saudi Arabia, parts of Pakistan or 50 other places.

The US and it’s allies couldn’t democratise or even stabilise what was once a pretty developed, westernised country in Iraq, never mind Afghanistan.
Thinking is overrated.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #197 on: August 14, 2021, 01:57:02 pm »
No different in Saudi Arabia, parts of Pakistan or 50 other places.

The US and it’s allies couldn’t democratise or even stabilise what was once a pretty developed, westernised country in Iraq, never mind Afghanistan.


 As was Afghanistan before the Yanks decided to back the nutters because they wanted Russia to have its own Vietnam.

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Offline TSC

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #198 on: August 14, 2021, 01:58:57 pm »
No different in Saudi Arabia, parts of Pakistan or 50 other places.

The US and it’s allies couldn’t democratise or even stabilise what was once a pretty developed, westernised country in Iraq, never mind Afghanistan.

Sharia law may be present to some extent in various states but not aware of any that carry out public executions of women in stadiums (maybe there is?).

http://rawa.org/murder-w.htm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58205062

Offline west_london_red

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Re: The War In Afghanistan
« Reply #199 on: August 14, 2021, 08:59:57 pm »
Sharia law may be present to some extent in various states but not aware of any that carry out public executions of women in stadiums (maybe there is?).

http://rawa.org/murder-w.htm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58205062


I don’t know to be honest, but we shouldn’t get too hung up on the details of whether it men or women, public nor private, it’s still absolutely barbaric.
Thinking is overrated.
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Rest, love, observe. Laugh.