Topic: 2017/18 Goals Conceded: How, Where, When, Who

[Funky_Gibbons]

Goal #1

De Bryne picks the ball up in midfield with no pressure on him (Can pretty much stands and watches him). For me the defence should start dropping at this point, no pressure on the ball plus a high-line is suicidal and very AVB at Spurs and Chelsea. Klavan correctly drops with Aguero but his movement and pace is too much. Matip stands stationary and very square on, poor body position means he can’t turn quickly and get back.



I don’t think Klavan should be stepping up in that situation either, it’s very hard to time and get right, we saw Otemendi try the same when Mane was through in the first half and completely mistimed it.

Major responsibility – Can

Minor responsibility – Matip and Klavan

Goal #2

The worst goal of the lot which shows all of our weaknesses in one goal. At a time the whole team should have dropped deep and defended the area to get in at half time 1-0 and still in the game, we concede a softest of goals. Many similarities between this goal and the second we conceded against Hofenheim at home, overload on the wings and outnumbered in the box.

Mendy passes the ball to De Bryne, note Salah doesn’t track Mendy nor helps TAA by doubling up on De Bryne. Salah is still playing in the half space looking for the counter attack, we need to be smarter here.

De Bryne dummies a cross taking TAA out of the game, he has time to take a couple of touches with Salah still not in the picture before delivering a cross into the box to three unmarked Man City players;

Note how, like the Hofenheim goal, no-one from midfield are within the goal frame and inside the penalty spot.

Major responsibility – TAA & Salah

Minor responsibility – Rest of the defence and midfield

Goal #3

Similar to the first goal, no pressure on the passer, defensive line is too high, Can is very square/poor positioning. Matip is very slow in getting back considering the player he’s marking eventually scores.   


Goal #4

Sane picks out the unmarked Mendy, TAA is too far behind. Sane runs into the box, Milner doesn’t track him but for me Matip needs to get tighter to him and make more effort getting into position, he’s jogging FFS.


Goal #5

Sane picks the ball up on the edge of our area, has time and space (over three seconds without a challenge) to manoeuvre the ball into position, line up the shot and put the ball into the top corner without anyone challenging him or closing him down.


Didn’t think there was any point attributing faults on the last three goals as the organisation and set-up was a complete mess.

[redmark]

Goal #1

De Bryne picks the ball up in midfield with no pressure on him (Can pretty much stands and watches him). For me the defence should start dropping at this point, no pressure on the ball plus a high-line is suicidal and very AVB at Spurs and Chelsea. Klavan correctly drops with Aguero but his movement and pace is too much. Matip stands stationary and very square on, poor body position means he can’t turn quickly and get back.



I don’t think Klavan should be stepping up in that situation either, it’s very hard to time and get right, we saw Otemendi try the same when Mane was through in the first half and completely mistimed it.

Major responsibility – Can

Minor responsibility – Matip and Klavan

A couple of additional points on the first; I really don't like Matip's readiness and reaction. From the Mignolet kick and then head tennis in the middle, Matip is flatfooted, too square and doesn't glance over toward Klavan - who's got both City strikers in close attendance - once. When the pass is played, Matip's too flatfooted to react, to the extent that by the time he gets turned and moves, he immediately gives up. IF he'd been in a more alert position, at the very least he should be the player, rather than Klavan, who'd be in a position to at least attempt to get back onto the line. He's miles away, because he wasn't alert to the situation from the beginning. As soon as City won the header, and at the very least when it drops to De Bruyne, he should be aware of the positioning of Klavan and City's strikers, and be working to narrow the gap. He sets himself to block a through ball that's never going to come near him, because no City players are near him.

A minor and possibly harsh point, but I thought Mignolet coming out to Aguero was poorly executed - too straight a line, too far too quickly - which made the step around too easy. A striker like Aguero was probably always going to score, but it seemed to be made a little too simple for him.

[Funky_Gibbons]

A couple of additional points on the first; I really don't like Matip's readiness and reaction. From the Mignolet kick and then head tennis in the middle, Matip is flatfooted, too square and doesn't glance over toward Klavan - who's got both City strikers in close attendance - once. When the pass is played, Matip's too flatfooted to react, to the extent that by the time he gets turned and moves, he immediately gives up. IF he'd been in a more alert position, at the very least he should be the player, rather than Klavan, who'd be in a position to at least attempt to get back onto the line. He's miles away, because he wasn't alert to the situation from the beginning. As soon as City won the header, and at the very least when it drops to De Bruyne, he should be aware of the positioning of Klavan and City's strikers, and be working to narrow the gap. He sets himself to block a through ball that's never going to come near him, because no City players are near him.

A minor and possibly harsh point, but I thought Mignolet coming out to Aguero was poorly executed - too straight a line, too far too quickly - which made the step around too easy. A striker like Aguero was probably always going to score, but it seemed to be made a little too simple for him.

I agree with the comments about Matip (I did make a small comment on his position and him being too square in my review, but your comments are more in depth);

Goal #1
Matip stands stationary and very square on, poor body position means he can’t turn quickly and get back.

I've noticed this a few times that Matip's positioning is of someone who thinks they're going to intercept the pass (and Matip does have good interception numbers) but this leaves him susceptible as when balls are played past him he's not in a great position to get back. Can is in a similar position for the third goal too.

I've also noticed when he does get turned like this he jogs back towards goal, hardly ever busts a gut to try and get back (noticeable on the fourth goal). 

[redmark]

I agree with the comments about Matip (I did make a small comment on his position and him being too square in my review, but your comments are more in depth);
I've noticed this a few times that Matip's positioning is of someone who thinks they're going to intercept the pass (and Matip does have good interception numbers) but this leaves him susceptible as when balls are played past him he's not in a great position to get back. Can is in a similar position for the third goal too.

I've also noticed when he does get turned like this he jogs back towards goal, hardly ever busts a gut to try and get back (noticeable on the fourth goal). 

Sorry yes, you did. I suppose it was 'additional' to the still image because I did start looking at these again yesterday, watched it through a few times from a few seconds earlier and became fixated on Matip's lack of awareness/reaction to the situation. It is a bit of an issue. As discussed in other threads, regardless of the quality of our CBs as individuals, I think the key point about CBs is how they work as a partnership - and Matip's passiveness seems to be a particular problem unless he's partnered by Lovren.

[BabuYagu]

Brilliant posts from Trend, RM & Funky - thanks for those guys

[BabuYagu]

A couple of additional points on the first; I really don't like Matip's readiness and reaction. From the Mignolet kick and then head tennis in the middle, Matip is flatfooted, too square and doesn't glance over toward Klavan - who's got both City strikers in close attendance - once. When the pass is played, Matip's too flatfooted to react, to the extent that by the time he gets turned and moves, he immediately gives up. IF he'd been in a more alert position, at the very least he should be the player, rather than Klavan, who'd be in a position to at least attempt to get back onto the line. He's miles away, because he wasn't alert to the situation from the beginning. As soon as City won the header, and at the very least when it drops to De Bruyne, he should be aware of the positioning of Klavan and City's strikers, and be working to narrow the gap. He sets himself to block a through ball that's never going to come near him, because no City players are near him.

A minor and possibly harsh point, but I thought Mignolet coming out to Aguero was poorly executed - too straight a line, too far too quickly - which made the step around too easy. A striker like Aguero was probably always going to score, but it seemed to be made a little too simple for him.

On the first, I would like Migs starting position to be higher. He's not that sort of keeper which is fair enough though. Not really a criticism and would likely make no difference on a peach of a pass like that from DB. Just as a general thing though with our line so high and evidently so fucking terrible at deciding when to step up, drop off, run away and hide.

On Matip running, or not as the case may be, I noticed a similar thing when Crouch was here. I pretty much hated the guy at first and that supported my argument. But then I grew to love him pretty quickly. Anyway, I wonder if the running style of big, lanky players with that languid style just run that way. For bigger, more muscular players, it's like watching a locomotive build up steam when they are running as they have so much more muscle mass to get going. Genuine question, don't know the answer here. I ask only because I saw one of those speed, sprints, distances run things with Crouch v Walters for Stoke many years back and just though "fuck off" because I never see Crouch really run and Walters worked his ass off. But thinking about it further, Walters "running" is perhaps covering similar distances to a heavy jog from Crouch due to him having 3 times the stride length

Agree with the criticism of Matip though and how Lovren seems to compliment him better. From memory, Hummels & Subotic had something similar going on at Dortmund. Hummels was the Matip player who was better as the last man covering and reading play. Subotic was better being aggressive and attacking everything that came near him. Klopp similarly tried to shape attacks towards Subotic's side of the pitch.

[Iloveyoumamadou]

Just bumping this thread because I think it's a good idea, if a little depressing. Maybe we need a goals scored thread to balance things out  
 
1st Sevilla goal https://streamable.com/clrj0: It's not shown in this video but the first mistake is Can missing out on a tackle. Next mistake is Salah running forward in anticipation we'd get the ball back. Gomez doesn't block the cross, and Lovren completely misses the clearance. Just a really frustrating goal because Sevilla don't do anything special, major responsibility obviously lies with Lovren.

2nd Sevilla goal https://gfycat.com/SophisticatedSoreGlowworm: Huge initial mistake by Can, Henderson has tracked his runner out wide and Can just doesn't fill in. From there you could argue that Lovren, Moreno and Gini should do better but I think that's stretching it, it's just a very nice touch and finish. From my perspective this is mainly Can's fault, for whatever reason he just isn't in position.

Burnley goal https://streamable.com/3nztw: Perhaps we could have pressed better to prevent the initial ball? I can't say i know exactly how we should press but it feels a little too easy for the CB to pass. Then Arnold loses his 50/50, which is annoying but sometimes that happens. Matip and Klavan both fail to deal with Wood, (Klavan is the worst of the two, I don't really understand what he's trying to do). As the defensive mid, Can inexplicably lets Arfield run off the back of him, giving him a free shot on goal. Robertson definitely could have tucked in more but I don't think that's a glaring issue. The Major mistakes come from the two CB's and Can.

I think Can is a bit of an issue defensively, he's involved in all three of these goals to varying degrees and looking back through this thread he's the one who makes the biggest mistake for City's first goal.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, but I'm sure more knowledgeable posters can add more than me.

[BabuYagu]

Burnley goal https://streamable.com/3nztw: Perhaps we could have pressed better to prevent the initial ball? I can't say i know exactly how we should press but it feels a little too easy for the CB to pass. Then Arnold loses his 50/50, which is annoying but sometimes that happens. Matip and Klavan both fail to deal with Wood, (Klavan is the worst of the two, I don't really understand what he's trying to do). As the defensive mid, Can inexplicably lets Arfield run off the back of him, giving him a free shot on goal. Robertson definitely could have tucked in more but I don't think that's a glaring issue. The Major mistakes come from the two CB's and Can.

I think Can is a bit of an issue defensively, he's involved in all three of these goals to varying degrees and looking back through this thread he's the one who makes the biggest mistake for City's first goal.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, but I'm sure more knowledgeable posters can add more than me.

- No Pressure on the ball (this isn't a problem as long as you are deep & compact as we were against Arsenal for example)
- Not vertically compact (look at the space between back line and midfield)
- Emre Can doesn't track Arfield
- Matip being passive
- Klavan getting sucked to the ball
- Mignolet?

On the plus side... at least we have stopped playing a high line when not pressing the ball. So yay for silver linings

This goal proves for me the problems are personnel related and not tactical as you can see what the players are meant to be doing, but traits of certain players - problems they are showing consistently are what breaks the system.

We aren't pressing them high I assume as we know they want to attack behind us. So the defensive line drops. I am so happy to finally be able to say that having noticed us fail so many times with this already this season. However, the midfield aren't compact. Different personnel, same problem but the biggest culprit has to be the #6 - Can. In addition to not being compact, he jogs back while watching the man Arfield run off his back onto the ball and hammer it home. Why Emre? It's every game at the moment! Just a blatent lack of effort. Then everything after that he was flying into tackles and shots. That all action Emre we know and love. Strange. I would think he was carrying injury if it wasn't for those other moments that suggest he is fine.

Matip is too passive, it's a regular thing. This is fine high up the pitch but the closer he is to the box the bigger this problem is.

Klavan gets sucked to the ball again. We saw this on the Man City 2nd goal where he leaves the smallest player on the pitch, Moreno, 1 v 3. I can understand if he maybe wants to get tighter incase Matip get turns but he cannot just completely vacate his zone and run over next to Matip. He can position himself even 5 yards off Matip giving himself a chance to react if Matip can't deal with the problem alone.

Mignolet is a weird one. He (likely) did nothing wrong based on my knowledge of shot stopping. Yet part of me wonders whether he could close down Arfield more there to narrow the angle thus giving him a better chance on the shot. Either way, I didn't like that his movement was just right to left, I knew before the shot was taken that if the forward puts it where Mignolet is coming from, the momentum of Migs would stop him saving it. I'd preferred to have seen him move left and also towards the ball. Then again maybe that is text book keeping - no clue to be honest.

[LiamG]

Is getting a DM maybe more important than getting a CB?

[BabuYagu]

2nd Sevilla goal https://gfycat.com/SophisticatedSoreGlowworm: Huge initial mistake by Can, Henderson has tracked his runner out wide and Can just doesn't fill in. From there you could argue that Lovren, Moreno and Gini should do better but I think that's stretching it, it's just a very nice touch and finish. From my perspective this is mainly Can's fault, for whatever reason he just isn't in position.

Interesting thing on that goal if you go back 30 seconds further (Let's start at say 71:00). First look at our shape. It looks very compact and our line is quite deep. This is pretty much as defensive as you will see us. Similar to against Arsenal we have a fluid 4 asymetric cube in midfield (Hendo Gini Can Firmino) and one player will step out to be the striker depending on position of the ball. When it goes left, Mane steps out. Right Salah steps out. Center Firmino steps out. Then retreat. This is forcing Sevilla to try and play through a compact shape. Where is the space we leave? Left side in front of Moreno (it usually is - it's our ambush point).

We are zonal marking clearly. It's option oriented zonal marking. This means we care only about the position of the ball. Where it could go to hurt us. We press the man on the ball when he enters our half. We stay compact but the shape is fluid allowing us to move in relation to where the ball is and making sure no space appears in the central area. It also allows for man marking of attacking players at the deepest parts of the shape (watch Matip & Lovren man mark while everyone else is zonal)

Okay now watch it forward to the goal a few times and ask what times we become uncompact - and why.

71:06 - Salah is central so Can moves right to press the ball while Salah gets back.
71:10 - Salah now in his position. Can still nearby walking. We are now not compact centrally but okay because Firmino isn't pressing the ball and is staying compact in front of Henderon & Gini
71:13 - Ball moves right now, Can starts jogging into position
71:16 - Ball right flank. Can still not close enough to Henderson but getting there. Still no problem. Mane & Moreno have their winger boxed in nowhere to go
71:19 - Big gap now between Henderson and Can. Pressure from Moreno sees Sevilla turn and play the ball back towards half way line.
71:23 - Gini steps out to press the ball. It's played left into the center circle. Can too far right. Big hole in midfield. But we are still okay as long as Gini moves back into his shape before a Sevilla player moves into that space to receive. Firmino starts moving towards the ball. Salah has dropped in as a RM again next to Can.

So up until now - We have only pressed when they enter our half. This allows us to remain compact. There is no space in behind so we don't need to pressure the ball any higher than that. Just stay in shape. Press when they enter our space. Push them wide. Compress tem against the line of the pitch to win the ball or force them backwards. This is easy.

71:27 Ball played from center circle just into our half to #17 in front of Can. Can steps out to press the ball. Ball is played backwards to 15 yards inside the Sevilla half to #4. #17 starts a move into the space Can stepped out of.
71:29 Can presses the ball alone into the Sevilla half. #17 is now standing in an ocean of space behind him calling the ball. Salah should tuck in now and fill that gap. Can should retreat because we aren't pressing in their half. Just stay compact. Stick to the plan. #4 passes the ball back into the center circle still 15 yards into the Sevilla half.
71:30 Can decides to press him as well now. Because why not. Still the rest of the team isn't pressing. Just Can.
71:32 Ball played back to #4. Henderson and Gini have adjusted to a flat 2 in midfield to cover for Can who is now caught behind the ball. Salah now needs to step forward to stop #4 progressing into our half leaving a space behind him to Henderson's right. This leaves #18 of Sevilla free to move forward on the right who is now in front of TAA who no longer has Salah's protection.
71:33 #17 Receives the ball in the pocket behind Salah to Henderson's right. Can starts his run back but is now 15 yards behind the ball. Can stops his recovery run still ahead of the ball. No idea why. He should be dropping into Hendersons space as he needed to step out to deal with this problem in Can's zone.
71:35 Henderson heads off the run of #17 stopping his progress. He turns and plays the ball sideways to #18. TAA needs to step up and deal with him in Salah's absence. Gini is moving across to protect zone 5 in front of our defence now as the lone center mid with everyone else on the right flank. He has an OCEAN of space to protect. Can jogging.
71:36 TAA presses #18. #17 turns and makes a run in behind TAA to receive a through ball. Henderson tracks the run brilliantly. Gini still out lone central midfielder. Salah ahead of the ball. Can too and still not moving into the space Henderson has left. Now walking.
71:37 #18 attempts through ball. TAA blocks. Throw in. Henderson is now effectively our RB marking #17. TAA next to the throwin taker. Salah too. Can standing  level with the throwin. Still an absolute ocean of space between Gini & Henderson. Is Can winded from the press he shouldnt have made further forward? He's walking.

Okay so the ball is now out of play. Position reset and man mark near the ball. TAA needs to make it back to RB. Salah needs to mark the throwin taker once the ball comes live again. Can needs to make it back into his midfield position. Henderson is marking number 17. Bobby will move to mark any ball thrown towards defence. Gini needs to protect zone 15 in front of defence until the midfield gets compact again when Can gets in beside him. But he is standing stationary watching the ball.

71:39 Throwing taken quickly. Ball received in that ocean of space between Henderson and Gini when their striker drops deep to collect. Can realises whats happening and starts running back. Too late. Henderson also notices and leaves his man to close him down. Gini ball watching notices what happens and starts running back towards goal but Correa has already started running too behind him.
71:41 Striker received and turned. Henderson does well to close him down but didn't get goal side. Moreno - who has their right winger high and wide right - is playing very narrow next to Lovren. But still not narrow enough to prevent Correa. He is the only person who notices his run now and starts his own run to stop him. Lovren doesn't know whether to step out to the ball or drop off. Can has given up and decided to jog again. Gini isn't aware of Correa still. He's deciding to come across and help Henderson who cannot get goal side of the striker.
71:43 Lovren caught standing square undecided whether to press the ball or drop. Correa's running in behind him and the striker plays him through. Moreno won't make it across. Gini never makes it near to the striker either. Can still trotting back.

So that is pretty much the breakdown of the goal. If anybody can get a clip from the full minute from 71:00 - 71:50 you will see how we lose our compactness, why, how Gini has to play midfield alone rather than watch Correa. Honestly, we were totally fine up until 71:23 in that game.

[McrRed]

Just found this thread. Great idea redmark. Shame we seem to have a couple of games missing... is everyone just pointing to the first few weeks' examples - rinse and repeat for Burnley and carabou Leicester?

[LiamG]

So is it Can's fault for just jogging about and walking losing our midfield shape?

Really enjoying reading your posts on here mate, keep it up

[BabuYagu]

So is it Can's fault for just jogging about and walking losing our midfield shape?

Really enjoying reading your posts on here mate, keep it up

In this one, 40 seconds sequence that happens to result in a goal. Yes.

We are with 11 men behind the ball pressing in only our half. He makes the wrong decision to press. Then from that moment doesn't ever recover his position  and is always ~10 meters out of position. This is a guy who clocked a top speed of 9,7 m/s against Arsenal when running forward to support Salah a few weeks back. So how could he not make back that 10 meters in almost 20 seconds even with a (albeit short) break in play for a throwin.

It is a pretty easy one to assess though because the setup is clear, there is a 20 second spell beforehand to show what is meant to happen comparitively to when it goes wrong. Then the moment it starts to unravel is clear also. Not all goals will be that clear. And not all the times we lose compactness will result in a goal either.

[BabuYagu]

19th September 2017 - Leicester 2-0 Liverpool - Okazaki for 1-0



This is how I see this goal.

1. We deal with the first ball well

2. We push out well. Chamberlain makes an effort to get out quickly and shutdown the ball. However:-
- Why is Flanagan so far out?
- Why is Gomez so far back?
- We are spreading out horizontally to give them an overload centrally to play the ball back into.

3. This results in Flanagan(1) needing to backpedal to deal with the ball being played back in. Therefore he never has a good starting position to compete for and win/put off the header. Although Morgan is likely always winning that, Flanagan is somewhat at fault.

4. Gomez(2) too deep. Debatable whether he played anybody onside as they all look pretty level to the ball. I think he does though. Then again the Leicester players would likely make sure they are level with the ball if there wasn't someone a few yards deeper playing them on. Either way, it's a fault.

5. Defensive line drops of well to get goalside of their attackers. The midfield line doesn't, therefore space opens up between the lines and we lose vertical compactness. Who should be picking up Dragović & Okazaki to prevent the central overload? I am going to put them on Gini (3) & Henderson (4). However more so Henderson as the #6 he should be protecting that zone.

6. Ball knocked down by Iborra to Okazaki edge of the box. Takes a touch, scores. Klavan's(5) attempted block is unimpressive. Again, I think both he and Matip are too passive and in the box that hurts us. Klavan should close that down better. However he has the tough task once again of running from problem to problem due to the midfield leaving people in behind them so hard to call it a major fault.

7. Should Ward (6) have done better? Ball wasn't hit very hard. Bounces into the goal albeit quite near the corner? Is he too far left at the point the shot is taken? It looks a little like that for me but open to debate I guess.



You can also nitpick more about Robertson, should he have done more to get in there and close down but he was moving out to protect from the ball out wide for another cross in.

So in order of responsibility I am going with:-
Gomez (Major)
Henderson (Minor)
Ward (Medium)
Flanagan (Minor)
Gini (Minor)
Klavan (Minor)
Robertson (?)

The lack of follow up for a potential rebound annoys me too. If Ward somehow does make a save I am sure one of Slimani or Iborra tucks in the rebound.

[rob1966]

Babu, you know how I lamented Migs footwork for the Burnley goal last week, watch his feet for the second today. Just as the ball is struck, he's gone and done that bounce again, he's off the ground as the ball is coming in and by the time he lands and then goes for it, he can only get a weak hand on it. I doubt he's aware he does it and it costs us. Neville picked up on it in the Derby when we conceded the late equaliser and he's still doing it. He needs to get set quicker, if he was he gets that ball away and we don't concede.

[BabuYagu]

19th September 2017 - Leicester 2-0 Liverpool - Slimani for 2-0



This is how I see this goal.

1. Klavan lets Slimani control the throwin that travels a long distance too easily perhaps but I think that is better than giving away a foul there. The fact there was nobody in front of him to prevent it is more an issue. Does Robertson get sucked under the ball? One of either Henderson or Grujic needs to be covering our zone 5 there on the assumption the ball will ultimately threaten there. At the time it looks like we had a double #6 in midfield. Henderson was man marking someone at the throwin whereas Grujic was zonal therefore I am going to suggest he should have been deeper behind Slimani or certainly have moved to get behind the ball quickly as this developed. Also should Woodburn also have been deeper? He looks very high there for the 3rd midfielder even if at that point we were more a 4-2-3-1. But he is certainly meant to drop in off the ball. All very minor at this point.

2. This has now resulted in Robertson (1) letting Okazaki get goalside and receive the layoff from Slimani.

3. Klavan (2)likewise has let Slimani get turned and goalside of him. Gomez is caught between dealing with a potential through ball to Okazaki or closing down Slimani as both are goalside and major threats. However Robertson eventually gets back goalside and so Gomez could have stepped across sooner. Again, struggle to blame in a major way what he does here as he is left with two very bad options and whichever he choses will likely see this escalate further. He makes a rather late choice to close down Slimani to no avail. Minor at best.

4. Grujic (3) poor starting position/recovery prevent him making a tackle on Slimani once he is goal side. Likewise Flanagan cannot close the gap as he is watching Gray.

5. Ridiculous finish on his weaker foot. Would likely never repeat that in 100 attempts. Absolutely no chance Ward.

So in order of responsibility I am going with:-
Klavan (Major)
Grujic (Major)
Robertson (Minor)
Gomez (Minor)

[BabuYagu]

Babu, you know how I lamented Migs footwork for the Burnley goal last week, watch his feet for the second today. Just as the ball is struck, he's gone and done that bounce again, he's off the ground as the ball is coming in and by the time he lands and then goes for it, he can only get a weak hand on it. I doubt he's aware he does it and it costs us. Neville picked up on it in the Derby when we conceded the late equaliser and he's still doing it. He needs to get set quicker, if he was he gets that ball away and we don't concede.

Still waiting for the game to download to watch but I´ll have a look and post something similar for the goals (hopefully only two and 3+ for us!). Was trying to catch up the thread with the goals missed while Redmark has been away the past couple of weeks.

You get Keeping much better than me though. Thoughts on ward for that Slimani goal. I think that he is too far left and also his dive isn't great either.

[BabuYagu]

EDIT:- Just noticed the Robertson deflection on the first goal. So I understand the dive and failure to stop a ball bobbling into the goal. The positioning criticism is likely harsh as well given that he cannot see the ball through Klavan, is travelling right to left and the deflection.

Ignore my criticism of Ward. Far too harsh

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Just to contextualise this ... our expected goals from set pieces was one of the worst in the league (we were level with Boro apparently) last season. From open play our defence was in the top 5 ... from set pieces it was pretty disastrous

That is why they are waiting for a VVD --- they think from the run of play that they can cope with a few transition counter goals. 

Its the set pieces which kill us, in the totals and at crucial points in games.

VVD was never intended to fix our defense.  He would be expected to help us lower our set piece tally and provide some much needed communication in the defensive third.

[BabuYagu]

Just to contextualise this ... our expected goals from set pieces was one of the worst in the league (we were level with Boro apparently) last season. From open play our defence was in the top 5 ... from set pieces it was pretty disastrous

No idea Jack if you can find this, but do we know roughly the xga per set piece conceded. Given that we are a VERY attacking side, we likely have to face much less corners than someone like Boro. Against Burnley, for example, we faced our first corner in the 70th minute.

[Funky_Gibbons]

1st goal.

The ball is running harmlessly towards Mignolet who is preparing to catch it, Vardy ‘runs’ into Matip, drags his foot along the floor and takes a theatrical dive to win a free-kick (referee error)

The ball is whipped into the front post area from the free-kick, Vardy beats Wijnaldum in the air and flicks a header towards goal, Mignolet makes a good reaction save to put the ball over the bar for a corner.

From the corner, Mignolet comes out and has his left arm clearly pulled by Okazaki, missed by all the officials. Given he was still very close to the corner it's perfectly possible to assume he'd have made the punch if he wasn't impeded.



The ball comes of a combination of Gomex/Maguire and Okazaki toe pokes the ball over the line.

Major – None (apart from the referee)

Minor – Mignolet (could he have been stronger?)

2nd goal

Gomez allows the cross to come in too easily (common theme with the right backs this season).

The ball makes its way to Gray at the back post, Moreno comes across to close down, at the same time Matip runs past Vardy to pick up Okazaki at the front post (probably Lovren's man).

Gray shoots past Moreno, Mignolet parries the ball back out into the back post area and Vardy is unmarked and can head into the empty net.



A note on this goal, at the end of the first half, Mignolet made a smart save which went behind for the corner we conceded the first goal from, was this a factor in Mignolet’s decision to parry this shot back into open play rather than facing another corner kick?

Major – None

Minor – Mignolet, Matip, Gomez   

Lovren looks in postion to block any shot towards the back post (could maybe have been slightly more central), but Matip runs past a player leaving him totally unmarked at the back post.

[BabuYagu]

1st goal.

The ball is running harmlessly towards Mignolet who is preparing to catch it, Vardy ‘runs’ into Matip, drags his foot along the floor and takes a theatrical dive to win a free-kick (referee error)

The ball is whipped into the front post area from the free-kick, Vardy beats Wijnaldum in the air and flicks a header towards goal, Mignolet makes a good reaction save to put the ball over the bar for a corner.

From the corner, Mignolet comes out and has his left arm clearly pulled by Okazaki, missed by all the officials. Given he was still very close to the corner it's perfectly possible to assume he'd have made the punch if he wasn't impeded.



The ball comes of a combination of Gomex/Maguire and Okazaki toe pokes the ball over the line.

Major – None (apart from the referee)

Minor – Mignolet (could he have been stronger?)

2nd goal

Gomez allows the cross to come in too easily (common theme with the right backs this season).

The ball makes its way to Gray at the back post, Moreno comes across to close down, at the same time Matip runs past Vardy to pick up Okazaki at the front post (probably Lovren's man).

Gray shoots past Moreno, Mignolet parries the ball back out into the back post area and Vardy is unmarked and can head into the empty net.



A note on this goal, at the end of the first half, Mignolet made a smart save which went behind for the corner we conceded the first goal from, was this a factor in Mignolet’s decision to parry this shot back into open play rather than facing another corner kick?

Major – None

Minor – Mignolet, Matip, Gomez   

Lovren looks in postion to block any shot towards the back post (could maybe have been slightly more central), but Matip runs past a player leaving him totally unmarked at the back post.

On that first goal, my problem there is that he is being held from before the kick is taken. So he knows that he either has to come out while being held OR stay and give clear sight that he is being obstructed. If he chooses to come out while being held, that is his decision but he needs to deal with it. Either shake him off - which it seems he eventually did but not early enough to allow himself to deal with the cross - or just let himself be dragged to the ground and (hopefully) get a free kick. I think Migs is too nice and honest in those situations.

The flip side of that of course is that he was also being obstructed similarly against Watford and nothing was given then either. Is it just something keepers have to deal with? I haven't really paid attention to how other keepers deal with those situations before - can anybody weigh in here?

On the second, the ease that Gomez gets beaten bothers me. Recurring theme when you put center backs at full back though. They just don't have the agility to defend against players like Albrighton. That goal reminded me of Skrtel v Downing under Rafa.

I also don't like players turning their back on things the way Moreno does. It's minor - and probably harsh because it's human instinct to turn away from a ball heading towards your face, but still... take one in the bake for the team son!

But my biggest criticism is this. Zonal marking how we do always leaves a free man in defence which is a big benefit. However, if you pause at the point Grey chests the ball he has 3 players in front of goal and 2 defenders. This is what I mean. Why? That should never happen, so where did that go wrong?

First - Gomez and Henderson. Probably couldn't cover the ground quick enough if they tried but one of them needs to make a move towards back post there quickly. Then the area center of the box that their #10 is walking around in? Given that it's zonal it must be either Gini or Can as Henderson is out helping Gomez after he got skinned. Looking at their respective positions, it looks like Gini. It also could be Can though - he does tend to get attracted to the ball at times.

If those two things have a solution then we have our free man in defence again. This allows Lovren to deal with the shot as the free man and Matip to pick up Okazaki in the near post zone. We don't though - and so once again we have a defender having to pick between two bad choices. Looking without the benefit of hindsight in knowing where the ball would go... I cannot really blame Matip. Ultimately he knew he had to take up the near post zone when Lovren decided to deal with the shot than the man in that zone (another decision I agree with). I can think of more scenarios there where Okazaki is a problem than Vardy is. Plus ultimately, on some level, maybe Matip hoped by going near post Gomez (most likely) or Henderson would quickly get into the back post position to help him out.

Lastly Mignolet, and this is only noticeable when you watch on 1/4 speed. Watch Migs feet and hands and pause at the point his feet are planted and hands are up ready to dive, the ball is almost level with Lovren at that point. It was pointed out before by Rob that little hop he takes before the shot leaves him slow to react. Is this why he was unable to direct the rebound rather than just get something on it? His hands were really low until the last second. Is that incase the shot goes lower?

Agree on the first being referee & migs. Second there is a lot of errors in there. Gomez is the one I would call major. Also whoever was meant to be in the zone their #10 is walking about in. Just because it didn't cause us a problem doesn't mean the error wasn't committed. He is available for the easiest cutback and finish. Problem is I just don't know if it is Can or Gini. Tempted to say Can as he is running towards a ball/player that both Moreno and Lovren are facing up to. So he is an unnecessary 3rd leaving a zone free elsewhere. Honestly guessing though. Could be Gini.

Minor I agree on Mignolet. I am not sure on Matip because of the above. I just think he has two bad choices there. I would add Moreno as minor but that maybe I'm being unrealistic and all players turn away from shots to protect their face? Don't know.

[dangerpuss]

Either Can or Gini has to cover King for that second goal, he's completely free in an extremely dangerous zone. Can is wandering towards the ball and Gini is just watching King in the box unattended. If they ball rebounds to King, he has a good opportunity to score there. If Gomez is to continue at fullback, he must get better at cutting out those crosses. It cost us against Watford too and almost cost us on Saturday.

[So… Howard Philips]

Funky mentions a few occasions were the right back(s) have been easily beaten. I suppose this is the price to be paid given youngsters experience but Clyne's return - whenever that is - should at least tighten that position.

[BabuYagu]

Either Can or Gini has to cover King for that second goal, he's completely free in an extremely dangerous zone. Can is wandering towards the ball and Gini is just watching King in the box unattended. If they ball rebounds to King, he has a good opportunity to score there. If Gomez is to continue at fullback, he must get better at cutting out those crosses. It cost us against Watford too and almost cost us on Saturday.

I believe that is Can's zone and Gini's is outside the box for follow-up shooters. However, if Can vacates his zone, Gini has to move in there and pick up that zone and therefore King (thanks forgot who #10 was )

This is a guess of course. But based on my understanding of zonal marking as we wouldn't want 3 people assigned to one player/ball in the box. Therefore I believe Can is just being attracted out of his zone to the ball. Gini is failing to read this and cover for him.

[BigJimFinn]

I believe that is Can's zone and Gini's is outside the box for follow-up shooters. However, if Can vacates his zone, Gini has to move in there and pick up that zone and therefore King (thanks forgot who #10 was )

This is a guess of course. But based on my understanding of zonal marking as we wouldn't want 3 people assigned to one player/ball in the box. Therefore I believe Can is just being attracted out of his zone to the ball. Gini is failing to read this and cover for him.

This was at least fifth goal this season where most of the following things happen in some order:
- the ball is wide in dangerous, unpressured crossing position
- both centerbacks get sucked towards the ball (here both in the first and the second phase) leaving the middle/back post area open, and the weak-side fullback fails to cover when the ball comes over them
- opponents have a numerical advantage in front of goal because none of our midfielders drop deep enough to defend the most dangerous zone, even when their counterparts make runs into the box
- the end result is a free point-blank header or shot from the gold zone
Without checking, this pattern fits at least Hoffenheim second, City second, Burnley, Leicester LC first and Leicester second. It is clearly the main way we concede in live play or second phase of setpieces.
No matter the advantages of a proactive zonal defending, if we consistently allow a numerical advantage in the most dangerous zone, there will be blood. It looks like the priority of putting pressure on the ball leads to all of our players reacting towards the ball and ignoring the men behind them, which might work in midfield and high counterpress situations, but is not sustainable in the defensive third. As simple as it sounds, the basic idea of defending your goal will always be to have enough bodies in front of it.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Funky mentions a few occasions were the right back(s) have been easily beaten. I suppose this is the price to be paid given youngsters experience but Clyne's return - whenever that is - should at least tighten that position.

Off the top of my head, goals from crosses/corners;

Corners
2 x vs Watford
1 x Leicester (Premier League)

Crosses
1st goal vs Man City (TAA)
4th goal vs Man City (TAA)
2nd goal vs Leicester/Premier League (Gomez)
1st goal vs Hofenheim (TAA)
2nd goal vs Hofenheim (Gomez on as a substitute)
1st goal vs Sevilla (Gomez although a big error from Lovren)
*Burnley goal??? (Headed cross/TAA)

Seven of our eleven goals conceded in the league are from crossing situations. You could possibly throw Watford's 2nd goal in there which was a low cross to the back post. 

*debatable whether this counts as a cross.

[dangerpuss]

We are really missing Clyne. I wouldn't put much blame on the youngsters. They are still very young and will make mistakes plus I don't think Gomez is suited to playing fullback without a winger ahead of him to help out. I think one of the midfielders should be told to help cover that zone and if necessary Firmino can drop in to cover that midfielder. I'm sure Klopp and his team are well aware of all this.

How big a problem is Can in the transition to defence? He seems to have been partly culpable for a large number of our goals due to laspes in concentration and laziness.

[lfc79]

I'd say in terms of the first Leicester goal Mignolet before the ball is played in needs to give Okazaki a firm shove to clear some space. The ref might see if and call them over in which case he need to make a vocal complaint that he is being held and obstructed and that Okazaki is not going to try and play the ball especially given his height, its pretty rare than a goalkeeper gives away a penalty in that kind of situation.
Part of it is a self fulfilling prophecy, refs think Mignolet is weak in the air so give the attackers the benefit of the doubt.   You can't always deal with a poor ref and you do get games where is clear they are going to let a lot of physical fouls go.

[redmark]

I've been offline for a week or two, but I will update the opening posts summaries of where/how goals are coming, based on the excellent work in keeping this going from Funky, Babu and others .

[BabuYagu]

This was at least fifth goal this season where most of the following things happen in some order:
- the ball is wide in dangerous, unpressured crossing position
- both centerbacks get sucked towards the ball (here both in the first and the second phase) leaving the middle/back post area open, and the weak-side fullback fails to cover when the ball comes over them
- opponents have a numerical advantage in front of goal because none of our midfielders drop deep enough to defend the most dangerous zone, even when their counterparts make runs into the box
- the end result is a free point-blank header or shot from the gold zone
Without checking, this pattern fits at least Hoffenheim second, City second, Burnley, Leicester LC first and Leicester second. It is clearly the main way we concede in live play or second phase of setpieces.
No matter the advantages of a proactive zonal defending, if we consistently allow a numerical advantage in the most dangerous zone, there will be blood. It looks like the priority of putting pressure on the ball leads to all of our players reacting towards the ball and ignoring the men behind them, which might work in midfield and high counterpress situations, but is not sustainable in the defensive third. As simple as it sounds, the basic idea of defending your goal will always be to have enough bodies in front of it.

We aren't actually trying to do this in the final third though. We only swarm the ball in counter press. There is a good example above of the 2nd Sevilla goal where we aren't even pressing the ball yet concede because Can, on his own, decides to run out of midfield into the opposition half and our formation then collapses on itself trying to plug that gap he leaves while he walks/jogs back and never gets back behind the ball in 20 seconds.

In basic terms, our plan at the back is to be zonal, have a free man in the deepest line (ideally Matip). Having that free man generally allows us 2 individual errors before we get into trouble structurally. All sides are in trouble when there are two mistakes in their backline though.

With this in mind when, assess our goals again. Watch them several times and watch individual people to see what their (likely) instructions are and the decisions they make and why. Try this watching Leicester's second goal but start from 68:10.



So we are in our defensive phase already. Low-attacking press. (pressing as we enter their 3rd) High Block. I would argue we are too stretched out here vertically. Too much space between midfield and attack and so this press will likely fail. But I assume it's simply limiting time on the ball while we are still getting into proper defensive shape and then we will retreat into a medium block and low-midfield press. (pressing as they enter our half).

We have 2 players pressing 3 defenders. That means we have a freeman somewhere on the pitch - likely Matip out of shot.

From here, we won't swarm the ball. We will apply pressure on the ball aimed to limit time on the ball, not win the ball and counter. So people shouldn't dive in. As long as we don't make 2 or more errors we should be good. Once we get behind the ball in our half, we shouldn't press the ball over the halfway line.



Already a problem as Leicester escape that press and are now 2-v-1 on Gini. Either someone steps out to help him and we have lost our free man advantage, we wins the ball, or he fouls and allows us a reset. So Gini eats a foul on halfway.

Already a problem is occurring though. Salah is getting attracted centrally to watch Albrighton. Chilwell is then free to run in behind him and be 1-v-1 with Gomez on our back line. Meanwhile Firmino runs back to get in shape. Sturridge walks. Therefore we have lost numerical advantage already as he is 10 yards behind play. However we should still be okay as Leicester won't have too many in their attacking line this early in their possession phase.

68:22 King sees Chilwell's run and plays it long from the freekick into his feet. He is now 1-v-1 with Gomez.


Lots of space around Gomez which we need to plug. We have a freeman on our backline in Matip. Okazaki's run is a problem and needs to be tracked from midfield if we are to keep a freeman in the backline. But we are still good here. Henderson & Can are near each other. Salah is moving over to support Gomez and likely staying close to Albrighton in the process. Moreno protecting us far side from diagonals. Everything is OK.



Chilwell's first touch takes him backwards. Albrighton takes the ball off him. Salah here should go behind Gomez who is in a right wing position and cover the space in behind him. Gini should shuffle across to help cover that side of the pitch when Salah vacates that space. Gomez should get behind the ball rather than trying to win the ball. Remember we aren't trying to win the ball and counter here. We are trying to stay behind the ball, prevent time on the ball and keep a free man in the back line. The movements in black lines I have indicated would allow us to do this.



Salah decides to stay with Chilwell rather than make a recovery run for Gomez. This isn't a huge problem, because he is still assisting the defence. Just not ideal. Henderson has seen this and already started his run to support Gomez and plug the gap. Gini likewise is now dropping deeper. Gomez though runs straight at the ball carrier and gets caught square (he's really not a full back). Error 1

We are still okay here though as long as we track runners, tighten up spaces (in red). Gini and Henderson are moving already to do so. Henderson will move to plug that big space behind Gomez. Gini will drop into the space Henderson vacates to give us a two man screen in front of defence again. Can needs to shift right as does Albie.



Can now has to see the run King is making and move faster. He hasn't yet though, still jogging. Gini is running to plug the gap left by Henderson. Albie is covering ground fast to close the gap between Lovren. Gray has started a run too off Firmino who can't track it and arrives in the box later 5 yards behind him.



Can hasn't closed that gap enough in midfield - he is level with Moreno vertically on the pitch. Nobody is aware of Gray at this point. We are reasonably compact in defence. Henderson did a good job getting back to give Albrighton no option but cross it early. If he hadn't he could have attacked the space diagonally attracting Matip over. At this point, except for Gomez decision to not get behind the ball and charge into Albrighton instead getting beaten - I can't fault many decisions. I wish Can moved quicker to plug that gap in midfield but it's not a problem.

We have already analyzed from here but simply put. Moreno closes the ball. Lovren tries to position himself to block the shot. Matip shifts across to mark Okazaki . Gomez should run to get to the back post. Can should stay in his zone rather than becoming the 3rd playing trying ot deal with the ball (maybe trying to keep King in his cover shadow?). Gini should drop in when he sees Can's decision. Mignolet should deal with the first shot better.

So we had a free man in the attack up until Gomez's choice. This resulted in Henderson coming across and us needed a narrow 2 in midfield instead of a 3. We also ended up at a numerical disadvantage in the box due to later decisions. Can being attracted to the ball. Gini not plugging the gap that left. Gomez not getting back into his back post position quickly (did he need to make the same run Henderson was making? SHould he not run in behind Henderson?).

So as per usual - we make multiple errors we have a numerical disadvantage. Nothing to do with tactics.

[BabuYagu]

The software I got to make gifs off files I download isn't working. But I would love to make one of the buildup to the first goal today. Lovren wins the ball, hands it off to Can. He's in midfield in a ocean of space on all sides. Takes a touch. Takes some more touches. Guy starts pressing him from behind. He's totally unaware because he never looks around himself and, I assume didn't hear shouts of man on. Guy gets a foot in, Can keeps the ball and pushes him to the ground. Can now being pressed by three other players starts running sideways towards Klopp. Gets to the line and kicks it blind back towards our own goal into space behind TAA. An absolutely amazing header by Lovren stops a goal. A Coutinho clearance running backwards stops a shot from the edge of the box. What is Can doing when he appears back in shot. FUCKING WALKING! The Spartak guy totally bought a foul off Coutinho too. Convinced that was a perfectly fine tackle.

That was an absolutely Fellaini-esque moment thought tonight for me. We went from having a 5-v-5 counter attack to someone aimless running towards the byline with the ball and then hoofing back towards their own goal blind, ultimately resulting in us conceding the goal.

[BigJimFinn]

We aren't actually trying to do this in the final third though. We only swarm the ball in counter press.
---
In basic terms, our plan at the back is to be zonal, have a free man in the deepest line (ideally Matip). Having that free man generally allows us 2 individual errors before we get into trouble structurally. All sides are in trouble when there are two mistakes in their backline though.
---
From here, we won't swarm the ball. We will apply pressure on the ball aimed to limit time on the ball, not win the ball and counter. So people shouldn't dive in. As long as we don't make 2 or more errors we should be good. Once we get behind the ball in our half, we shouldn't press the ball over the halfway line.
---
So as per usual - we make multiple errors we have a numerical disadvantage. Nothing to do with tactics.

Great post again, and I fully agree this is how we are supposed to defend. I was a bit unclear in my post: my concern is that the general aggressive ball-pressing and counterattacking mindset is affecting the players' decisions in the defensive third, when they should be more disciplined and aware of threats off the ball. It isn't easy to switch the mental approach in different phases of play and parts of the pitch, it requires the kind of rigorous tactical training that Italian football specialices in. We also seem to expend a lot more physical effort in pressing forward than tracking back. I worry that some of our current players might not be capable of learning the necessary defensive awareness, and at the moment Can looks like he can't be even bothered. I wasn't trying to imply that Klopp wants them to chase the ball like 8-year olds, only that this seems to happening way too often and it is causing us real problems.

[BabuYagu]

Great post again, and I fully agree this is how we are supposed to defend. I was a bit unclear in my post: my concern is that the general aggressive ball-pressing and counterattacking mindset is affecting the players' decisions in the defensive third, when they should be more disciplined and aware of threats off the ball. It isn't easy to switch the mental approach in different phases of play and parts of the pitch, it requires the kind of rigorous tactical training that Italian football specialices in. We also seem to expend a lot more physical effort in pressing forward than tracking back. I worry that some of our current players might not be capable of learning the necessary defensive awareness, and at the moment Can looks like he can't be even bothered. I wasn't trying to imply that Klopp wants them to chase the ball like 8-year olds, only that this seems to happening way too often and it is causing us real problems.

I agree. I have some quotes from Kehl and Klopp about it actually that I'll dig out and post up. Kehl basically saying not all players can play this system. There was an interview with Klopp in 2012/2013 where he talks about differences training ball oriented pressing. He said with pressing you train the situation but he has to train the impulse until it becomes an instinctive natural action.

I think until people are trained, this goes wrong a lot and always looks bad. Gomez is a good example. It's about knowing the phase of play you are in. He wants people to instinctively swarm the ball the moment we lose it. But that is a certain phase of play. He doesn't want people running at the ball all the time. Yet because he is pushing people to do so for counter pressing, they are ignoring/forgetting all the sessions when we focus on our option oriented zonal making system. Where the focus is on where the ball could go, not trying to win the ball itself. Therefore Gomez needs to be thinking where could the ball go that would hurt me most and be positioned to deal with it. Rather than just running straight at Albrighton.

[BabuYagu]

Shared from the JK Tactics thread as I think it's an interesting look at the goals/shots we have conceded so far in the Premier League.

The best I could do for now. Hope this helps.



(EPL data 2017)

Wow, that is brilliant again mate, well in.

Only 3 blocked shots in our box this season? Just 1 from open play. Is that not ridiculously low?

5/9 shots in the 6 yard box are corners.

9 corners have resulted in shots which resulted in:-
- 3 goals
- 2 blocks
- 2 saves (40% save rate)
- 2 misses

5 shots from indirect freekicks resulted in:-
- 4 misses
- 1 save (100% save rate)

21 shots from open play
- 6 from angle left post (1 goal, 2 missed, 3 saved) (75% save rate)
- 6 from angle right post (2 goal, 2 blocked, 2 saved) (50% save rate)
- 9 central (4 goals, 5 misses, 0 saves) (0% save rate)

- 4 in 6 yard box (2 goals, 2 saves) (50% save rate)
- 10 in 12 yard box (4 goals, 1 save, 4 miss, 1 block) (20% save rate)
- 7 in 18 yard box (1 goal, 3 misses, 2 saves, 1 block) (66% save rate)

Small sample size but there is the breakdown of the data.

[macnianios]

it's been a while

i can't make gifs or images right now so only thoughts on text

1st goal

Morenos' Foul, mane not  going hard on challenge, coutinho not dropping enough and moreno has to come up so there is a hole on our left back aera, moreno not getting the header, X player not stopping scorers' run, karious wrong movement (i thing)

i really cant' make up my mind on who to blame most, i want coutinho coming deeper but if he has other instructions  you cannot blame him. moreno has to fill the gap? Is someone instructed to stop the runs at set pieces ?
so many questions i cannot answer , i hope someone else can

2nd goal

Moreno terible touch  but  i also blame  coutinho because moreno is alone with 3 and potential 4 players coming at him. Moreno should have react better but there is no need to put him in that position, especially where at the other side we have more players.

 3rd goal
So many bad decisions before corner especially henderson giving away the ball and Can pressing without any meaning
When the corner is taking off everyone is coming a little more towards the first post but gomez who at the beginning was at penalty spot now is coming deeper and leaving a big hole where Pizarro is coming.

i really dont know a lot about zonal marking, but i don't think gomez is supposed to leave so much space there.

-------
English isn’t my first language, so please excuse any mistakes. 

 

[iamnant]

English isn’t my first language, so please excuse any mistakes. 

It's better than most people's in the UK mate, who's first language *is* English!

[NGreat]

It's better than most people's in the UK mate, who's first language *is* English!

Whose.

[redtel]

Whose.

Whose on first base. I think. 😜