Topic: Man Utd vs Liverpool-In Game Commentary & Post game shite...

[jaffod]

That's the spirit.

And on caferouge there's probably someone saying how ashamed he was by the 'Murderers' chants and some clown saying 'nah, fuck 'em - did you hear their Munich shite'.  That attitude of tit for tat just leads to the lowest common denominator prevailing. (IMHO)

Good one.

In case you've never noticed, they sing their bile whoever they're playing, not just against us. If they cut that out, and let's be honest they never will, then you might have a point.

[Gnurglan]

No. But lets just wait and see.

The same as the league table, we have to see what happens when the dust settles. He's had what 7 competative games. Give him a chance

I'll give him a chance. No worries. It's early days etc, but I don't think we can afford too much more of this.

We need wins now, or Roy will be under quite a lot of pressure. Under the current circumstances, with owners, re-financing etc, we just have to win. Can't afford to have a team in the bottom half of the table with uninspiring football.

[Rainy]

Part of me understands why we are currently so inept ('direct') we are in control of the ball; what I cannot comprehend is how cheaply we now value controlling space. It's all fucking bizarre, honestly, and I pray that this is not a theme that continues to develop over the coming matches. This is knee-jerking, I know, but everyone needs to vent! We all now know of the necessity we have to cut away the Tumours for all the reasons well documented - what we are now seeing is off pitch malaise bleeding into on pitch regression. We need to cut them out before the cancer spreads to stage IV.

Right - bed.

[rushyman]

I'll give him a chance. No worries. It's early days etc, but I don't think we can afford too much more of this.

We need wins now, or Roy will be under quite a lot of pressure. Under the current circumstances, with owners, re-financing etc, we just have to win. Can't afford to have a team in the bottom half of the table with uninspiring football.

dont get me wrong. Im not a sunshiner and wont just stick up for him for the sake of being a superfan whatnot.

I simply havent started to judge yet, though i must say the changes made today at 2-2 werent the right call

Theres one thing, sadly that is becoming clear and not just from this season. Carra is past it

[lionel_messias]

2 things I've noticed about Roy's tactics.

One, it's clear we invite crosses from deep areas which is suicide with our centre backs but the defence stays very compact.

Two, we drop off like a basketball team when we lose possession  into two very deep banks of 4 so much so that Torres gives one little chase and gives up because otherwise he'd be pressing on his own.

I don't like either tactic personally.

yeah that is true.

Its also painfully true we lack a centre-half who can dominate in the air and we lack pace in attack other than Torres.

Well we knew all of this in the summer, but this is still depressing. Its good that we have Cole and Meirelles who both are good footballers capable of passing the ball, but we desparately need someone quick and composed for them to aim their passes at. It feels like moving the deck chairs on the titanic but surely Babel is worth a punt on one of the flanks, especially with Kuyt out?

I dunno, if we are going to sit this deep we need someone to hold up the play nearer Torres. Or he will suffer endless matches like today.

But you know what, I think it may not even be worth talking tactics anymore...we don't have the squad to finish in the top 5. Its that simple. We are lacking at fullback - both fucking sides - there is a problem at centre-half and we don't have the right balance in central midfield either.

And of course up front we are light. Fuck it, we just have to survive, get a new owner hopefully and maybe Jonjo and Pacheco will emerge this season to dispel some of the gloom

[hesbighesred]

The fact is that I saw similar and just as many shite performances under Rafa, with the same crappy negativity as demonstrated by Hodgson in some games. The fact that the likes of Torres and Rodriguez had people defending them because both "did not get any service", while Poulsen and Konchesky got ripped to shreds shows exactly what peoples views are. Lets not forget that it was both Cole and Meireles who played the passes that led to the penalty and free kicks.

Also, Hodgson's tactics were getting questioned regarding player positions. Has Gerrard not played central midfield before? Has Raul Meireles never ever played in attacking midfield?

If this was a match under Benitez, we would have all sorts of stats being blurted out about possession. But under Hodgson I guess he does not get such grace, because he isn't Benitez.

In my opinion, we played ok. Not great, but not terrible. We still have players like Cole and Meireles being integrated into the squad while having a squad who's players are in a constant case of not being arsed. It wasn't as shit a performance against one of the best teams in England that people are claiming.

We have had many seasons under Benitez where we have been closer to the relegation zone than the title.

That bit about 'stats' and Rafa vs Hodgson is utter bollocks K_H. The reason the stat-heads are largely dubious about Roy, and are failing to bring out stats in his defense  - is simply because there aren't really any. You could post stats showing that we've enjoyed more possession than the opposition in most games under Roy - you could, but you'd have to photo-shop them.

If anything the stats, for those into them, are considerably more worrying and depressing than the results. Indeed, a lot of the criticism of Roy is based on stats, so that'll be why people aren't presenting them in his defence.

'Oooh, look how much we dominated against West Brom - we had 51% possession!!!'

[hesbighesred]

It's quite honestly the most ridiculous thing I've seen written.

To be fair she obviously means 'at some point during the season', not 'at the end of the season'. That should be pretty obvious - there's plenty better reasons to rip the post apart

[GBF]

We keep criticising Roy for making us play like Fulham but ill take Fulham's current position in the league

[Carlito Roberto]

We keep criticising Roy for making us play like Fulham but ill take Fulham's current position in the league

So would Roy.

[Number23]

Would you fancy something out of an away trip to Inter Milan right now? Would you fuck. He'd fucking rip us to shreds, then look at his watch, the fat fuck.

I'm sure your post has been quoted multiple times but I LOVE this line....

[Beninger]

We keep criticising Roy for making us play like Fulham but ill take Fulham's current position in the league

I'd have taken their first 5 fixtures as well...

[guest]

WE'RE FUCKING SHITE.

HERE END THE ANALYSIS.

[hesbighesred]

People narrow down the Liverpool Way too much. It's also the Liverpool Way to play pass and move. We aint seeing too much of that at the moment.

You know what, the Liverpool way isn't about pass and move either.

Talking purely in football terms, what happens on the pitch and coaching style, the Liverpool Way is very misinterpreted.

What it was is a 'stystem of winning'. That's it - pass and move is just a product of that, the more continental approach Shankly adopted in order to help us win. That applies on and off the pitch - Shankly's revolutionary work on the training pitch, his changing of tactics, his approach with players.

Over the years an utterly mongrel perception of it has thrown up, where Evans, for example, is seen as 'Liverpool Way' through and through, even though he wasn't innovative, he didn't build a winning system, we defended like shite, had little mental bottle and a horribly unprofessional culture off the pitch.

EDIT:

And if Shankly were alive today, ditto Paisley, they wouldn't be 'pass and move' Cruyff style purists, you can be pretty sure of that.

[Fanxxxxtastic]

In fahct, our last manager Walked Alone.

Rafa didn't walk alone.  There were plenty of us that walked with him, and still would, but that's been stripped from us, and I'm still hurting because of it.

[Gnurglan]

Theres one thing, sadly that is becoming clear and not just from this season. Carra is past it

Perhaps the biggest mistake Rafa did was to keep playing Carra all the time, letting the three other CBs share the position beside him. Carra still has a role to play, but he shouldn't be a guaranteed first pick in every game.

[Gnurglan]

You know what, the Liverpool way isn't about pass and move either.

Talking purely in football terms, what happens on the pitch and coaching style, the Liverpool Way is very misinterpreted.

What it was is a 'stystem of winning'. That's it - pass and move is just a product of that, the more continental approach Shankly adopted in order to help us win. That applies on and off the pitch - Shankly's revolutionary work on the training pitch, his changing of tactics, his approach with players.

EDIT:

And if Shankly were alive today, ditto Paisley, they wouldn't be 'pass and move' Cruyff style purists, you can be pretty sure of that.

Yes.

[Robinred]

I'm not criticizing Hodgson because he was brought in by this board - I'm only suggesting that he doesn't get the automatic support that I gave other managers because of it. That's not something I can explain, it's just my own personal feelings. I've personally been against many decisions that the board and the owners have taken. It would take something special for me to line up unquestioningly behind one of their decisions, because their track record is, frankly, shit.

Like I suggested, and you picked up on, Hodgson's football results on the pitch may take me from "uncomfortable observer of Hodgson's appointment" to "outright proponent of the Hodgson Way". So far, he's really given me little to suggest the change was for footballing reasons, that we got a superior manager in the footballing sense for the 11.5 million quid we spent to upgrade managers. But football's an afterthought.

Business wise, the direction is alarming. The squad is getting older in a hurry due to the age of his recruits and the age of the Rafa-era players that Hodgson has chosen to keep, and the money's running out. We'll have to replace Konchesky, Kuyt, Gerrard, Carra, Maxi, Cole, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Kyrgiakos, and Aurelio within the next 3 years. Even Torres, Meireles and Johnson are the wrong side of 25. Even if this flock of players starts bringing in results, we're gonna be fucked soon. We don't have any Patos or Messis on our team. The youngest player who has a claim to the word "starter" is Lucas, and he's the most picked on member of this team, and I don't expect him to be around for much longer. Insua is gone. Ayala is on loan. Mikel San Jose starts for Bilbao. Two kids were swapped for Konchesky. Nemeth is in Greece. The Riojas bought for 2015 are being popped without any thought to Best Drinking Date.

But getting back to Rafa - I disagree with your statement that "we" thought he should have gone for the jugular when he "settled" for something less. Rafa had the right approach - first become dead hard to beat, then worry about converting the draws into wins. Everyone bitched about the draws in 2008/2009 - well I'd give my left arsecheek for that many draws every season. Every season Baz. I would take that many draws every season. Let me say that again so that there is no confusion. I would take that many draws every league campaign.

You know why? Because Rafa had it right - with that many draws, and taking something like 14 points from top 4 teams (that's sick) we still had the most points that any second place team ever had. If we did that every year, we'd be within shouting distance of the title every season. Most of us just cannot wrap our limited intellect around the fact that it's not about one hand; it's about getting to the final table. Just because you create chances to see a flop, it doesn't mean you go all in every hand. It's a campaign. Fuck going for it every minute, instead be hard to beat and consistent. Take the points from home/away matchups against top opposition. That's it, djes. You don't need to go for broke against Stoke. Most times, Kuyt's opener counts, and Gerrard's shot goes in off the post. Meanwhile, you accumulate a war chest from Champions League revenue, and spend a percentage of it on a lot - a lot - of cheap, promising kids.

Instead, we did what Rafa always said not to do. We pushed harder than we should have in 2009/2010 when we didn't really have a chance at winning the hand, lost when it was obvious we weren't gonna win, took that as an indictment of Rafa and the whole fucking system, and then tilted madly. Victims of emotion. Pathetic really.

I can't speak for most people, Baz, but my discomfort with how we look now isn't about plucking random results and comparing them. It's about the entire tournament, indeed, the entire portfolio, not an isolated case by case comparison. Rafa made it so that you didn't give a shit which fucking ball emerged of Platini's jar. On any given day, Rafa's Rojas - a portfolio full of individual results that may look questionable in isolation - looked like something I'd put my money on. On any given day. You can't say that now. Would you fancy something out of an away trip to Inter Milan right now? Would you fuck. He'd fucking rip us to shreds, then look at his watch, the fat fuck.

Whether he bought Alonso for 10m or sold him for 30m, whether he bought Mascherano or sold Sissoko, whether Crouch fired blanks or became prolific for England, whether he swapped Josemi for Kromkamp (sp?) or Dudek for Reina, whether he played Gerrard on the right or off Torres, whether he "went for it" or "settled for a draw", whether he won in Istanbul or made 2 finals in 3 years, whether he stuck with Bellamy or bought Torres, on or off, whether his team conceded 4 to Arshavin or hit Chelsea for 4 at the Bridge - Rafa earned my respect, and my support because the longterm results were overwhelmingly positive. Random decisions and results mean nothing.

If Rafa were a fund, I'd invest in it. It looks like it would feature consistent performance, profits, and dividends - possibly boring, but those are usually stellart investments. I didn't disagree with any single individual thing Rafa did, especially not fucking subs or silly shit like "going for it" because I knew that over time, I was in the right hands. Day to day decisions may have indeed been random; but the long term results were on an upward trajectory. In his shittiest year, he came within minutes of a European final. That's long term results smoothed out for ya.

Unfortunately, some of us sound like folks who sold a longterm winner at the first sign of trouble, hopped onto a risky stock, and are now peering intently at the price over the last week, while alarm bells are ringing on the one year chart. "Oh it'll be alright, Rafa lost at Trafford too, it's not so bad," they say.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I rarely bother with the post-match thread these days - particularly after a defeat. I'm glad I did so tonight though, otherwise I'd have missed this gem, which says all the things I feel at the moment.

Anyway, it's going in the 'Posts you may have missed' thread.

[jDJ]

The problem is many of us believed wholeheartedly in Rafa and we simply don't feel that with Hodgson yet.  Even people like me who supported Hodgson's appointment, after the board had sacked Rafa, couldn't claim to have the faith in his abilities that I did in Rafa.  I wavered in my support of Rafa last season for a very short time mostly because I thought there was an element in the dressing room who had lost faith in their manager and once that goes, it's difficult to get back.  There was the unrest amongst some of the players that we suspected but that's a battle Rafa needed to win.  Rafa's departure and the manner of it has set us back so, so far it's almost too depressing to contemplate.  The reality of individual players having the influence to pick and choose managers at our club is far more frightening than the manager upsetting a couple of 30-something millionaires.  Players need protecting from themselves, it was this time last year there was a Gerrard interview in the Mail by Martin Samuel when Gerrard talked about finally understanding Rafa and his ways - he gave an example of Rafa telling Stevie to keep practising with his wrong foot and not being afraid to try to shoot with his wrong foot and then he scored with his left and Rafa gave him a sort of told you so pat on the back.  There's every chance, we could have had a good start to the season and Gerrard would be waxing lyrical now about what a tough but effective managerial style he has.  In Rafa we had someone who has spent his career adapting his methods, learning from the best, an almost obsessive approach to his work who was fighting our corner, to the point of ridicule at times. 

I know he's gone now and I've been arguing with people on here to support Hodgson but try as I might I can't honestly say I like the way things are going.  You can't just glibly dismiss the performances as tough games - we've been shocking.  The most glaringly obvious problem is how deep we're playing.  Even David Fairclough made the observation on LFC Tv the other day and he's hardly a tactical genius.  Yet, I haven't heard Hodgson make that observation about our performances on a single occasion.  Worryingly, it's as if he doesn't see that as a problem.  When we played a 4-2-3-1 under Rafa, Gerrard was a second striker, he'd run beyond Torres to get on the end of flick ons at times.  Torres told Iniesta that Gerrard is his best strike partner ever - not bad coming from someone who's played with Aguero and Villa.  Today Torres was so isolated we never gave the poor lad a fcking chance.  As if he's going to hang around for that - it must be sh1t for him.  And then he's got to listen to clowns like Redknapp labelling him diabolical.  (interesting article about the standard of punditry in this country here - http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Tom-English-39The-level-of.6364084.jp)

Johnson, Maxi, Cole, Mereiles, Gerrard, Torres - there was some real talent out there today but our tactics never gave those guys a chance. Hodgson's got some really tough decisions to make.  Carra, where to play Cole and Gerrard, etc but he needs to man up and make those decisions fast.

 

[John C]

Just because its an MU team that isn't going to win the league doesn't mean its a shit MU team. I see them dropping points this season but perhaps not a lot at OT. I was concerned during the first half that we were pinned back again, not just because I know it would be hard to turn it around at their ground but because its is definitely a pattern of this season. But last year we'd have excused it for a settling squad.

I don't care what anyone says, we've had a difficult start to the season. This time last year we'd be comparing the difficulty of games that others have had and highlighting bad luck like:-
-First two games of the season being against Arsenal & Man City.
-Cole being sent off versus Arsenal.
-Pepe spilling the ball leading to a goal versus Arsenal Pepe  .
-Hours before the City game Masch basically goes on strike which completely unsettled the team.
-Versus Man City the ball not rebounding in off the back of Harts head after it hit the post from an SG shot.
-Playing a tough Birmingham side when there's no way they'll maintain that consistency all season.
- O'Shea not getting sent off today.

I'm not making excuses for Roy, he shouldn't need any. Indeed I'll query as many decisions of his as I have for the last 15 years - no change there hey.

Lets get a load of games out of the way and assess the situation in May Lets not over react because the best striker in the world basically held Berbatov in a brilliant position to nod it in easily and our long standing defensive inadequacies in the air have been found out again.

When did we decide collectively that a Liverpool manager shouldn't have time to work with his players and exactly whose decision was it?

[karrmadamaii]

Perhaps the biggest mistake Rafa did was to keep playing Carra all the time, letting the three other CBs share the position beside him. Carra still has a role to play, but he shouldn't be a guaranteed first pick in every game.

Was waiting for someone to say that, though thinking on the flipside, it may be him not wanting to split the supporters. As it is Rafa already polarizes opinions.

I just wonder since Carra is the best game reader in our list of CBs at the moment, with his evidently waning form & standards, why couldn't he just help Skrtel & Agger along in the training ground. I mean, they see each other almost every day. It's like there's this taboo against dropping Carra unless it's a league cup fixture or something.

[Fanxxxxtastic]

I rarely bother with the post-match thread these days - particularly after a defeat. I'm glad I did so tonight though, otherwise I'd have missed this gem, which says all the things I feel at the moment.

Anyway, it's going in the 'Posts you may have missed' thread.

Bugger!

Forgot that thread.

[hoonin]

When did we decide collectively that a Liverpool manager shouldn't have time to work with his players and exactly whose decision was it?

It was that Captain Tsubasa fella. Dodgy bastard.

[Robinred]

Bugger!

Forgot that thread.

Someone who felt the same beat me to it!

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

It was that Captain Tsubasa fella. Dodgy bastard.

Dont drag me into this, ya balloonhead

[fowlermagic]

On my first four dates with this new gal I spent more than half of my time talking about how great the ex was. For some strange reason I did not get a 5th.  Some fans at this stage should put a hold on their “support” until the new owners come in and then they can jump on the  wagon that the likes of City have created.

[guest]

On my first four dates with this new gal I spent more than half of my time talking about how great the ex was. For some strange reason I did not get a 5th.  Some fans at this stage should put a hold on their “support” until the new owners come in and then they can jump on the  wagon that the likes of City have created.

As if you've had two birds.

[CS111]

Just heard WHsikey nose saying that at 2nil up he though it was going to end up 10, WHat a wanker he really is

[Gnurglan]

Was waiting for someone to say that, though thinking on the flipside, it may be him not wanting to split the supporters. As it is Rafa already polarizes opinions.

I just wonder since Carra is the best game reader in our list of CBs at the moment, with his evidently waning form & standards, why couldn't he just help Skrtel & Agger along in the training ground. I mean, they see each other almost every day. It's like there's this taboo against dropping Carra unless it's a league cup fixture or something.

I've said for years that Carra has played too much. Carra naturally fights for his place (and he deserves respect for that), but eventually it's the manager's decision. It's the only point where Rafa didn't fully follow his rotation policy.

[guest]

Just heard WHsikey nose saying that at 2nil up he though it was going to end up 10, WHat a wanker he really is

I did as well, to be honest.

[jaffod]

Just heard WHsikey nose saying that at 2nil up he though it was going to end up 10, WHat a wanker he really is

He can't help it though. It's like when he's had 2 large whiskey's, he knows it'll end up being 10.

[steveeastend]

He can't help it though. It's like when he's had 2 large whiskey's, he knows it'll end up being 10.

 

[fowlermagic]

As if you've had two birds.

There is a 2nd reason why you are sponsored by Kleenex….hows that bedroom supply doing?

[Gnurglan]

Just heard WHsikey nose saying that at 2nil up he though it was going to end up 10, WHat a wanker he really is

I expected them to score a couple more. We didn't pose a threat, but scored two and were back in it. Shame we couldn't push a third down his throat.

[CS111]

The bigger picture is my main worrry, the more news that comes out the bigger the sh1t we are in. It could GENUINELY be the end of an era for us, easily drifting into a midtable side, As ive said many times before we are miles behind
Chelsea with their sugar daddy
Arsenal with their youth
City with their billions
ManUtd always there or ther abouts, massive worldwide marketing, where we were left behind by the previous regime might i add
This will be the top 4 for Years to come

[karrmadamaii]

I've said for years that Carra has played too much. Carra naturally fights for his place (and he deserves respect for that), but eventually it's the manager's decision. It's the only point where Rafa didn't fully follow his rotation policy.

Hence my flipside thought.

It's just....mind-boggling. I'd expect him of all people to acknowledge that fact, at the very least. He is by many accounts an avid study of the game. Nothing against him, the legend that he is. I think it needs to be said that he was at his peak when he was paired with Hyppia, though belatedly in his career coz he picked up almost everything from Hyppia in just 2 short seasons. I think the fact that Hyppia made up for Carra's lack of presence in the air & Hyppia's longer strides hiding the fact he never needed to make as many desperate last minute lunges has gone unnoticed by many & when Carra lost the only partner he had that covers two of his biggest weaknesses (and there weren't many) he just didn't know what to do & kept on playing the way he has been.

I guess Rafa not dropping Carra more often to bed in Skrtel+Agger is one of those little things we noticed only in hindsight after all this shit has happened.

[cowtownred]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

True. Very true.

[cowtownred]

Well, our team was able to contain Manc, right? We almost nicked a draw. Everything is according to Roy's plan.  Clearly his plan worked. What else can you expect from a manager who was able to implement his plan to (almost) a perfection? Not much, right? 

Roy has plan?  Roy has plans?  Do enlighten us with Roy's plan/plans?

[Gnurglan]

The bigger picture is my main worrry, the more news that comes out the bigger the sh1t we are in. It could GENUINELY be the end of an era for us, easily drifting into a midtable side, As ive said many times before we are miles behind
Chelsea with their sugar daddy
Arsenal with their youth
City with their billions
ManUtd always there or ther abouts, massive worldwide marketing, where we were left behind by the previous regime might i add
This will be the top 4 for Years to come

Don't surrender just yet. The Mancs have financial problems too. If we can get that part sorted for ourselves, things will be a lot more positive for us. Even this season, we have a good chance at a top four finish. In a way Roy is lucky. We've already played three top sides, two away from home. The crucial games for us to win, if we are to finish high, is to beat the lesser sides home and away (say 10th and down at least). So far we've won one and drawn one. Not quite there, but not too bad either.

We have a good enough team and a good enough squad to win 20 games, which is the minimum for what we need to finish top four.

[El Campeador]

Just heard WHsikey nose saying that at 2nil up he though it was going to end up 10, WHat a wanker he really is

He meant *down* to 10. Men that is.

[fowlermagic]

Don't surrender just yet. The Mancs have financial problems too. If we can get that part sorted for ourselves, things will be a lot more positive for us. Even this season, we have a good chance at a top four finish. In a way Roy is lucky. We've already played three top sides, two away from home. The crucial games for us to win, if we are to finish high, is to beat the lesser sides home and away (say 10th and down at least). So far we've won one and drawn one. Not quite there, but not too bad either.

We have a good enough team and a good enough squad to win 20 games, which is the minimum for what we need to finish top four.

Shame on you for thinking with 33games to go we actually may have a change in fortune. The good news is half of today’s fans who have the patience of a gnat may stop posting here soon but I am sure will be back when the club is willing to spend 40m plus on a player when new owners come in. Love how the traditions live on.