Topic: Probably negative, but is there a need to dampen expectations?

[redk84]

Obviously with the buzz of the first game of the season, especially at Anfield nothing but a win is gonna be a bit deflating.

Hopefully the negativity won't be like this after every draw!! Or it will be a long season....

We just gotta stay within 5 points of the lead going into October....the team should be starting atleast to get into a rhythm by then. The results will come.

[FlashingBlade]

The title is spot on! Some major dummy spitting after the game, down purely to fans overestimation of what would be put before them yesterday...yes it was disapointing in the second half, but our fitness levels dropped off  letting Sunderland have lots of the ball ( and apart from the goal offered little real threat) and clear signs of the need to get use to each other ....a typical opening game to the season...early days, give it half a dozen games to get fitness up to speed and players to understand each other and then lets start assesing whats possible.

[jillcwhomever]

To answer the question of the thread, I think so. I have a lot of hope for the team, I just don't think it will be instant. Kenny will need time to get his ultimate inprint in the team. Also with a lot of new players there will be teething problems, but they can be dealt with. The way we lost our fitness second half was a bit of a worry, but hopefully as we get into the season proper we will overcome that. I am just enjoying the fact that we don't seem to have any off field worries, and it will be a very interesting ride this season. 

[-Q-]

Do I think we can win the league? Yes.  We have the potential to do that.  However that is not to say it is my expectation.  I am disappointed with the result, the loss of two points that were there for the taking in the first half, but there were lots of positives (in the first half...) I think we tired in the second.  If we can play like we did in the first half, with a bit of luck (and a proper referee) we'll be putting teams to the sword when things click.  As for our expectations this year, our primary aim has to be a top four finish and to be in with a shout of the title towards the end of the season.  Anyone expecting us to walk the league is deluded.  If we finish in the top four, that is a good season - considering.  Next year we can push on for a genuine title challenge. 

[Breitner]

Think the OP is right. We've been in shit state for a while and it's not going to change overnight, even after bringing in a lot of new players. We all got carried away with the feel good factor but in reality it was always going to take time to gel properly. Talk of the title is daft and we should be looking to improve our consistency and focus on 4th place and the odd trophy

[Red Sox]

We ran out of steam second half, which just isn't acceptable.

[social]

Contrary to popular belief, our rivals cannot, in fact, go eight points clear of us after the first round of matches.

[Red Beret]

It's a reality check for anybody thinking we're going to win the league, but really if we're measuring ourselves against Arsenal it's about what we would expect.

As I said on the match thread, given the understanding Suarez and Kuyt struck up last season I'd have preferred them both to start and for Dirk to take the pen.  I also wish we'd played pre season with more of our players who we knew intended to feature, rather than the likes of Cole and Poulsen who we are trying to ship out.  Putting them in the shop window has likely only put buyers off.

[In the Name of Klopp]

Think the OP is right. We've been in shit state for a while and it's not going to change overnight, even after bringing in a lot of new players. We all got carried away with the feel good factor but in reality it was always going to take time to gel properly. Talk of the title is daft and we should be looking to improve our consistency and focus on 4th place and the odd trophy

I see you've changed your mind

We were fucking mediocre in 2nd half.

[Fat Scouser]

No, Jimmy mate... it's time to higher expectations. Kenny has already said, expecting to win the title is the Liverpool Way. He's got no problem with it. What he needs to do now, is entrench that belief and spirit in the players. When we don't get things our own way, the heads drop. We revert to bad habits... sideways, crab football, the inevitable ball back to the back 4 or Pepe, the launch upfield. Kenny needs to instill the belief that if we keep playing correctly and pressing the results will come. But I'm afraid the players won't fully believe that until the results come. It's sort of like the cart before the horse at times, but Kenny needs to sort it. As far as I'm concerned, he's already started and he will succeed eventually.

[steveeastend]

I think in todays football the quality is as important than believe as the game is so much quicker than ever, with believe only we will win nothing.

And I am not sure if we improved our quality. Not sure at all...

[social]

I think in todays football the quality is as important than believe as the game is so much quicker than ever, with believe only we will win nothing.

And I am not sure if we improved our quality. Not sure at all...

Can't even make our your post, but do you really, truly believe our squad is of the same quality as the start of last season?  If that's true, well, you can't be helped.  I don't even think it's a matter of opinion that we're better.  Even people that hate our club would probably admit that we're better; it's just a question of how much better.

[killer-heels]

There was plenty of promise yesterday. Only worry was that we looked knackered in the 2nd half, which is a bit dissapointing seeing as we should have ironed those issues out in pre-season.

[steveeastend]

Can't even make our your post, but do you really, truly believe our squad is of the same quality as the start of last season?  If that's true, well, you can't be helped.  I don't even think it's a matter of opinion that we're better.  Even people that hate our club would probably admit that we're better; it's just a question of how much better.

It´s really the same every year. People don´t wanna see what is going on the pitch, even if they see it with their own eyes. And I don´t give a shite what others think.
Yesterday we were worse than last year. And the reasons for that cannot be used as an excuse, in fact  it´s the other way around.

[RK7]

It´s really the same every year. People don´t wanna see what is going on the pitch, even if they see it with their own eyes. And I don´t give a shite what others think.
Yesterday we were worse than last year. And the reasons for that cannot be used as an excuse, in fact  it´s the other way around.

Did you watch the first half in full? I am the biggest critic out there and I thought based on all the games I have seen so far we were the stand out performers so far. That first half gave me great hope, it was lack of fitness and leadership that failed us yesterday.

[social]

Robbie, your response was measured and accurate.  The post you were responding to is the kind I was talking about in the other thread

[Twelfth Man]

No, Jimmy mate... it's time to higher expectations. Kenny has already said, expecting to win the title is the Liverpool Way. He's got no problem with it. What he needs to do now, is entrench that belief and spirit in the players. When we don't get things our own way, the heads drop. We revert to bad habits... sideways, crab football, the inevitable ball back to the back 4 or Pepe, the launch upfield. Kenny needs to instill the belief that if we keep playing correctly and pressing the results will come. But I'm afraid the players won't fully believe that until the results come. It's sort of like the cart before the horse at times, but Kenny needs to sort it. As far as I'm concerned, he's already started and he will succeed eventually.

This is a big issue. When ever we get pressed with greater intensity than our own, we tend to react to events rather than dictating play ourselves (2nd half yesterday) we inevitably lose confidence and the expectations at Anfield means the groans and silence become oppressive. For me it has a lot to do with having ball playing players in the team, who are comfortable keeping the ball even when pressed, playing it on the ground and out from the defence through midfield to the forwards. Whenever we get pressed basic link up play in our side from defence to midfield and midfield to forward play breaks down. Part of it has to do with lack of options and outlets, players in midfield not being very comfortable having the ball played to them when pressed or not having the skill to twist and turn and create space for themselves. Agger aside this can apply to our CBs.

Don't mean to be negative but when intensity drops technical skill, ball playing abilities kick in, retaining possession, hanging on, just giving the opposition team a bit of a run around until we build up a head of steam ourselves. The key area for me is the 2 CBs and our CM, they need to be the engine and base of the team constantly moving around the ball, probing for options up front and out wide. They have to be comfortable on the ball even when pressed and to press together, keep shape and remain compact, a strong base from which to launch attacks. For me this just breaks down completely when we are being pressed, we cede centre ground and often we have no way of wrestling control back. Great when we have intensity we are the ones pressing blowing teams off the park but when that drops inevitably confidence wanes and the base and shape of the team breaks down.

I am probably being too negative here. We will win the league!

[steveeastend]

Did you watch the first half in full? I am the biggest critic out there and I thought based on all the games I have seen so far we were the stand out performers so far. That first half gave me great hope, it was lack of fitness and leadership that failed us yesterday.

It wasn´t a fitness issue,(only for Lucas and Suarez).  It was down to us having to press too often in the first half. No team in the world can do that for more than 45 minutes. We had to do this cause we weren´t able to keep possession and let the ball circulate without trying to hit the long ball or cross as quick as possible. Why did this happen? Your turn...

[steveeastend]

The thing is that Arsenal, Chelsea, even ManU... they all lost quality. All of them.

With the way we played the second half of least season under Kenny the title would be absolutely possible.

It was clear that some players had to go. But why half of our winning first 11? Why not two top quality signings in addition to this winning team and see how it goes?

[social]

It's a good thing our squad full of professional footballers and staff full of professional coaches have you here to point out where it all went wrong.  Bet we get the three points next week.

[Pistolero]

Damp Expectations...the sequel Dickens never wrote

[Twelfth Man]

The thing is that Arsenal, Chelsea, even ManU... they all lost quality. All of them.

With the way we played the second half of least season under Kenny the title would be absolutely possible.

It was clear that some players had to go. But why half of our winning first 11? Why not two top quality signings in addition to this winning team and see how it goes?

Top quality football man-whores prefer the milk$hak£ at Sheikh Mansour and Abramovich's yard these days unfortunately.

[Red Beret]

Well looking at Arsenal and Chelsea now about the most damaging thing you can say about our result is that it was at home.  At least we can say hand on heart we deserved all three points and created enough chances to deserve the win.

I watched the first half and I saw a lot of good work out there.  We dominated, had chance after chance, and it was good to see our lads fancying their chances with shots from distance.  We scored from a free kick ffs!  Sunderland had good spells and showed perhaps slightly more threat at set pieces but they didn't get forward any more than we did.

I left the pub at half time because I had a feeling we would rue the missed chances, which to be fair HAS been something that has dogged us for years and once again bit us in the arse this weekend.  That does not make this a shit team though.  Kenny's having to rebuild the entire team almost from fucking scratch, with the kind of resources Rafa would have wanked himself silly over. 

Take a look at that team we sent out first half on Saturday - how many of those players were wearing a red shirt this time last year??  Now look at Utd, City, Arse and Chelsea and put their transfer moves into context.

[Nazi Dickhead]

I think everyone has high hopes and unrealistic expectations for the first game of the season. This applies to us more than most because we have so many exciting additions to our team. Its going to take time for us to get back up to speed and for our new players to gel, i think it will take at least 3-4 games until we will start to see what this team Kenny is building can really do on the pitch. We saw glimpses of it in the first half.

[montysmum]

Well, one game in and we have already managed to get into the CL spots so it can't all be bad

[Mizerooskie]

No need to dampen expectations at all.  Chelsea drew with Stoke and Arsenal drew with Newcastle.  Top clubs draw with mid-to-bottom table clubs frequently. 

Now, if we get a month or two into the season and the same signals of poor fitness are evident that were yesterday, it might be time to reconsider.

[gazzalfc]

The expectations should be how it's always been

To win the next game. Then then next game etc

1 game at a time.

[rafathegaffa83]

No need to dampen expectations at all.  Chelsea drew with Stoke and Arsenal drew with Newcastle.  Top clubs draw with mid-to-bottom table clubs frequently. 

Now, if we get a month or two into the season and the same signals of poor fitness are evident that were yesterday, it might be time to reconsider.

I agree with this. Stoke drew against Chelsea at home last season, as did Arsenal away to Newcastle. The Mancs won with a late goal against West Brom last year, as they did today. We beat Sunderland last year at home, but were unfortunate not to so yesterday. Some poor refereeing cost us the chance to be up 2-0 well before half-time. That said Sunderland have strengthened quite considerably during the summer. I would expect they will be hovering around the Europa League places.  Dropping points against them at home will be somewhat ok in the long-term scheme of things, providing we don't drop points against the type of absolute dross we threw points away to last season: Blackburn, Wigan, newly promoted sides like Blackpool, clubs that are eventually relegated. It's those type of games that have cost us badly the last few years, particularly in 08/09.

There's plenty of positives to have taken from yesterday's game, both individually and collectively. There's also a few weaknesses that are noticeable. I'd rather we figure those out now and have the chance to shore them up at this stage of the season, rather than at the back-end. We just need to take it one game at a time.

[Fat Scouser]

I am probably being too negative here. We will win the league!

Not at all mate. That's a very good post. And there's nothing wrong with discussing the cons as well as the pros....
all title winning teams make at least one credible challenge before winning the league. The days of someone just coming out the blue and winning it are long gone. I was hoping our second place under Rafa was our challenge before kicking on, under different circumstances it could well have been. But it wasn't to be. But with the additions we've made, I think that season could still be the springboard. I don't see why we have to start off again on a new five year plan.

Okay we've lost some of them players, notably Torres, Masch and Xabi. But we've brought in enough quality to cover for that now. I'm hoping a good solid CB can be added before the window shuts but I still believe we've got enough about us to give it a real go. Kenny needs to get the team/squad believing that too. If he does, I see no reason why we can't challenge.

The problems you've mentioned are what done for us when we finished second. Obviously, there was more to it than that. But if you think back, especially to the draw with West Ham at Anfield, it was exactly what you described that fucked us up. Players and fans went into that game expecting us to just bowl West Ham aside (much like Sunderland yesterday). When it didn't happen the players retreated in to the type of play you described and the supporters heaped more and more pressure on them. I'm using that game as an example because it became pretty infamous for what happened, but there was other examples. These are the sort of expectations that we need to dampen... booing a draw that sent us back to the top of the table was scandalous in my opinion. But not only that, it could have easily cost all 3 points, when Bellamy broke free and near done for us. And, again, that near happened at the end of yesterdays game. We could have came unstuck there if it was any other player besides Cattermole that got the break yesterday.

So, yes. Jimmy's got a point about fans expectations piling pressure on the team. I'm fucked if I know the answer to that though. It's just the way it is nowadays. But as for the players, I honestly believe Kenny doesn't have to just raise their expectations, he needs to make them truly believe it's possible and get them playing with a swagger and confidence that sends that message to our opposition. We need to start making these teams fear us again.

Look at the run in between us and Man U. Teams laid down and rolled over for them before a ball was kicked whereas we had to scrap for every point. But we start bowling a few of them aside and not only our own players and fans will start believing, others will too. And, with having no European games, we really can throw everything at this and, if we do, I don't think we'll be that far off.

[Fat Scouser]

PS... The Mancs done it in the last ten minutes yet again. We constantly did the same thing in our glory years. That's what title winning teams do, and that's what their opponents do... win and lose in the last few minutes. Expectation is a big factor in that. That's the sort of expectation Kenny has to instill in our lads.

[-RedTilDead-]

We need to start making these teams fear us again.

Interesting the connections being made between fan expectations and team performances.

I have noticed over the last 2 years some of my friends and colleagues saying things like "who are you playing this weekend? Oh it's only Liverpool, should be OK."

Can't wait until they are back saying "Shit! We are playing Liverpool."  How it should be.

[Mutton Geoff]

Surely our expectations are high because Ideally we want to win this league, to not think that is skewed in my view.

 That is the idealism factor of an optimistic supporter,  however the realism factor will tell you top 4 is the target, but it would have told you that in Rafa's epic season as well, and what a great journey we went on that season with sadly only just the wrong outcome!

Kenny's expectations are a bit more logical though 3 points in the next game!

[GCH-Q]

Absolutely no need to dampen expactations. This will be a 4/5 horse race with the winning team probably not even getting 80 points.

No need to panic I dotn think Sunderland will do that badly this season in fact they'll nick more than  few points away to the big boys this year.

Were just getting started with a few things yet to sort like fitness, FFS Bruckner pull your feckin finger out!! Only joking we are going to be fine and we shouldnt start to evalaute progress until maybe after 6/7 games.

I think its gonna be a lot tighter this year than last with Man City probably setting the pace. We just need to stay on their coat tails!!

Lets have it

[Degs]

PS... The Mancs done it in the last ten minutes yet again. We constantly did the same thing in our glory years. That's what title winning teams do, and that's what their opponents do... win and lose in the last few minutes. Expectation is a big factor in that. That's the sort of expectation Kenny has to instill in our lads.

Just posted this in another thread before seeing the above:

You can read too much into the start of any season, and to read anything from the first game is entirely short-sighted and isn't fair on any team, least of all one that had only 3 players (goalkeeper included) start last season's opening fixture as well as this season's. Having said that there was already a difference to see between a well established title challenging team and one finding its feet. 

I hate the Mancs, passionately, it isn't a hatred that I received with a Liverpool supporter's club card for my 6th birthday, nor is it a rational one, this hatred was inoculated into me seconds after birth, as it was with anybody else born in Oxford Street maternity hospital, and has festered and continues to gestate with every passing year becoming worse. I try to hide the affliction, "Oh that team down the road, oh they don't bother me..THEY'RE obsessed with US!", and yet I watch. I watch them on Sky, on ESPN, in Europe, even Charity Shields and Super Cups, and why? I want them to lose, I want them to lose badly, I want there to be no more Manchester United and to scratch their name from the annuls of history, where once was a mighty construction in Salford there will be a car park and a sign that reads "The Sami Hyypia car park"...

But, fuck me, they're good.

What other team can you feel uneasy seeing the opposition winning a corner against, how the fuck can you simply "know" that at 2-0 down away to Blackpool the score will finish 2-3, you even see them losing 2-0 at half time to a multi-billionaires piggy bank and you know they'll win. Today you see both central defenders hobble off (3/4 of the back line now injured), a goalkeeper who it actually looks like is shitting his kecks and a team that's on average a year younger than the one that first featured Giggs, Scholes, Neville etc. and yet you're positive that even at 80 minutes drawing 1-1, away from home, they're going to get the winner.

How do they do it every year?  The answer is simple, as all good things in football are: Patience.

Yesterday we looked fantastic, we passed the ball with ease and purpose, we created space and denied the opposition any chances, we caused problems and all around the pitch looked assured, confident and at ease with the situation.  When Suarez missed the penalty we still pushed and got our rewards, a worthy goal.  Referees can be blamed for not handing out cards, for denying goals but ultimately the direction of the game, and our play, turned in one instant.   Below are the pass completion stats, we start well and when Suarez scores we are even better, we maintain a high pass completion rate and the amount of passes we make remains high.  We are sailing, cruising to victory, by how many is the only question to be asked?

Suddenly Sunderland score and from that point on there is abject panic.  There is no belief in the methods that have created so many chances and the passes become rushed, long, inaccurate and sparse. Andy Carroll soon becomes a magnet for incoming Nike projectiles and the second ball is constantly lost and by the time of the final whistle our pass completion rate has dropped again to its almost lowest point in the game.

Liverpool 1 - 1 Sunderland

Minutes	Success	Fail	Percent
0-10	22	10	68%
11-20	65	16	80% *
21-30	43	16	72%
31-40	47	10	82
41-50	74	16	82%
51-60	34	8	80% *
61-70	33	12	73%
71-80	39	15	72%
81-90	62	27	69%

* - 11th Minute Suarez scores
* - 57th Minute Larsson scores

There was no sense of calm, a steady head telling the players new to this situation how to react, this has to come with experience and therein lies the difference between our 2 clubs and the mission Kenny Dalglish has on his hands, to instill a consistent philosophy and belief into an impressionable set of minds. While many will focus on referees or the decision to include Flanagan these points are trivial compared to the larger scheme, the entire team had a personality breakdown.  Flanagan will take the sharp end of the stick but he won't be the only player to cost us a lead through an error, Pepe Reina did the exact same thing last season, players will make mistakes and that is something that cannot be changed in football, what can be changed is the response to it.

Take the Mancs for example.  Like us they take an early lead and their pass completion stats rise and plateau at around 80%.  Like ourselves they suffer the sting of an equaliser, as more and more time passes without a goal something strange happens, instead of panic there is belief, a self-fulfilling prophecy that Man United will score, and their pass completion rate stays as it was, they have belief in their methods and these methods pay their reward with the winning goal.

West Brom 1 - 2 Manchester United

Minutes	Success	Fail	Percent
0-10	54	14	79%
11-20	50	12	80% *
21-30	36	9	80%
31-40	53	12	81% *
41-50	67	17	79%
51-60	60	9	86%
61-70	46	12	79%
71-80	38	9	80%
81-90	59	12	83% **

* - 13th Minute Rooney scores
* - 37th Minute Long scores
** - 81st Minute Reid o.g.


This is why those who know football have already targeted 4th and looked no higher.  This isn't just a new group of players we have but in the grand scheme of things we might as well have a new club: new owners, new manager, new director of football, new reserve boss, new players, new sponsors, new kit makers, and hopefully new stadium.  Kenny Dalglish needs the time Alex Ferguson had to build a dynasty, to instill a sense of belief and calm, to bestow a philosophy upon the faithful and to wrestle the confrontation to any situation from that shower of shite down the road.

What we don't need is squabbles over team selection, outcries over substitutions, finger pointing at referees, and general "the end is neigh" prophecies after 90 minutes of football.  If you've been brought back down to Earth with a bang after 90 minutes I hate to be the one to break it to you but this rebuilding is going to take years, if not a decade, to truly overtake Man United as favorites for the title.

Fans and players alike need patience.

[RK7]

It wasn´t a fitness issue,(only for Lucas and Suarez).  It was down to us having to press too often in the first half. No team in the world can do that for more than 45 minutes. We had to do this cause we weren´t able to keep possession and let the ball circulate without trying to hit the long ball or cross as quick as possible. Why did this happen? Your turn...

Press? Sunderland sat back and relied on launching the ball into touch and up to Gyan. Granted we played with a high tempo but we were not pressing them to extent that we could not continue this in the second half if fit.
We played some neat stuff first half, kept possession well, worked the ball into good positions and created chances, we could have been 3 up at half time.
We then came out second half, dropped deep leaving to much space in the middle and faded badly. The players were blowing out of their arses, looking tired. Nobody on that pitch pushed us forward or took control of the situation. Panic set, we made mistakes and resulted to launching the ball.

*Edit*,Just read the post above. I'm useless at making my point in text. The post above by Degs is exactly what I am trying to say. Probably the best and most accurate post I have read yet on Rawk since joining.

[Fat Scouser]

Press? Sunderland sat back and relied on launching the ball into touch and up to Gyan. Granted we played with a high tempo but we were not pressing them to extent that we could not continue this in the second half if fit.
We played some neat stuff first half, kept possession well, worked the ball into good positions and created chances, we could have been 3 up at half time.
We then came out second half, dropped deep leaving to much space in the middle and faded badly. The players were blowing out of their arses, looking tired. Nobody on that pitch pushed us forward or took control of the situation. Panic set, we made mistakes and resulted to launching the ball.

*Edit*, I'm useless at making my point in text. The post above by Degs is exactly what I am trying to say. Probably the best and most accurate post I have read on these Rawk since joining.

You've made your point well, mate. But the thing is, this is a long standing problem. We need to break the cycle.

As for Sunderland sitting back and hitting long balls, yep. They did rely on that, the way any away team will at times, including us. But they didn't just park the bus. They pressed and harried until we ended up looking like the away team at times. Over the last few seasons, we've looked great at times against the top teams. We learnt how to hold them out and hit them fast on the break. That's been great fun, especially pannelling the Mancs at their gaff. But if we're going to make the step up, the final hardest step to take, and become genuine contenders, we need to break this cycle. We've got the personel to do it. The only question is, will we go for it. I think Kenny will.

[steveeastend]

Press? Sunderland sat back and relied on launching the ball into touch and up to Gyan. Granted we played with a high tempo but we were not pressing them to extent that we could not continue this in the second half if fit.
We played some neat stuff first half, kept possession well, worked the ball into good positions and created chances, we could have been 3 up at half time.
We then came out second half, dropped deep leaving to much space in the middle and faded badly. The players were blowing out of their arses, looking tired. Nobody on that pitch pushed us forward or took control of the situation. Panic set, we made mistakes and resulted to launching the ball.

*Edit*,Just read the post above. I'm useless at making my point in text. The post above by Degs is exactly what I am trying to say. Probably the best and most accurate post I have read yet on Rawk since joining.

Mate, being able to play relaxed and patienced needs quality with the ball all over the pitch. Confidence comes from trusting your game plan and your team mates.

It doesn´t come from trying to avoid "suddenly loosing your head" still knowing you could do better.

We DID press too much in the first half. We lost our head because the movement was shit in the second half. But even when the movement is shit you should be able to control the game by passing it around just because for having the BETTER footballers around. All this is practiced in training, patterns, day in day out.

IF it turns out that it´s not working players are loosing their head and confidence. And that happens most of the times when the other team is better, simple as.

Sunderland wasn´t better but we had only slightly more quality. Slightly. Because Suarez was fucked, Lucas was fucked and the rest just wasn´t able to outplay them. Tactically and technically. We RAN them down in the first half. As soon as we couldn´t press anymore, we were finished with playing football. Be it because we don´t gel together yet, or we don´t have the quality, who knows.

[RK7]

You've made your point well, mate. But the thing is, this is a long standing problem. We need to break the cycle.

As for Sunderland sitting back and hitting long balls, yep. They did rely on that, the way any away team will at times, including us. But they didn't just park the bus. They pressed and harried until we ended up looking like the away team at times. Over the last few seasons, we've looked great at times against the top teams. We learnt how to hold them out and hit them fast on the break. That's been great fun, especially pannelling the Mancs at their gaff. But if we're going to make the step up, the final hardest step to take, and become genuine contenders, we need to break this cycle. We've got the personel to do it. The only question is, will we go for it. I think Kenny will.

I think he will and I agree with you totally, as Degs said above this habit will take a bit of time to shift, maybe years. The balance and character of the squad still needs a tweak IMO but we are on the right lines  for sure.

[thejbs]

We need to put the result in perspective based on other EPL results.  Only 3 teams won at the weekend. Wolves, Bolton and the Scum.  Arsenal, Chelsea and United were far from impressive. 

[Fat Scouser]

We need to put the result in perspective based on other EPL results.  Only 3 teams won at the weekend. Wolves, Bolton and the Scum.  Arsenal, Chelsea and United were far from impressive. 

Don't expect any easy games this season. Of course a few hidings will be given out here and there, but the vast majority of games will be very tight. United and Chelsea, if they get going, will benefit from teams thinking they are going to get beat and saving the effort for the teams as they see as their rivals. City might well get this edge an all, if they string some results together. But Arsenal and us will be made to scrap in every game. So, it's going to be tough but I think we can still put in a challenge. Win the thing and we'll see the difference.

Oh well on nights off to work.