Author Topic: General Election on June 8th  (Read 416957 times)

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,610
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3680 on: May 22, 2017, 08:32:02 pm »
Jeremy is on Friday hopefully he will handle it better being more use to hostile interviews but we will see.

Its Nuttall tomorrow.

Plenty of prep time then and barring any new developments, plenty of time to work on the things that Neil will definitely ask, like immigration, Brexit, IRA etc.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,265
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3681 on: May 22, 2017, 08:32:46 pm »
Jeremy is on Friday hopefully he will handle it better being more use to hostile interviews but we will see.

Its Nuttall tomorrow.
:lmao

Might watch that for a laugh
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,610
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3682 on: May 22, 2017, 08:33:03 pm »
Anyone running to be PM should make themselves as visible as possible.

If you want to to push "strong and stable" May has to go to the debate and show it. It's not difficult to see why she is being protected by her campaign though.

Labour were massively behind and getting a lot of negative press, Corbyn needed to go to the debate and try to present himself to people without the filters or biases that are normally between them.

Luckily the Tories are scuttling their own campaign while Labour have so far avoided doing so, so the debates might not matter so much after all.

You do what it takes to win and nothing else. Both struggle with those formats.

Online Trada

  • Fully paid up member of the JC cult. Ex-Tory boy. Corbyn's Chief Hagiographer. Sometimes hasn't got a kloop.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,812
  • Trada
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3683 on: May 22, 2017, 08:41:49 pm »
Don't they get interviewed live by Paxman at some point I'm sure thats part of one of the town hall like live events.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Online Elmo!

  • Spolier alret!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,438
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3684 on: May 22, 2017, 08:44:52 pm »
Surely it comes down to 'my children' and not 'me' when talking about inheritance?

It's funny how people arguing against inheritance tax always argue from the point of view of the parent wanting to give their money to their sons/daughters, and never from the sons/daughters point of view wanting to inherit money from their parents....   ::)

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3685 on: May 22, 2017, 08:46:21 pm »
Jeremy is on Friday hopefully he will handle it better being more use to hostile interviews but we will see.
he won't, he's had a few tough ones and got quite angry with interviewers so fully expecting that one to be a car crash

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,265
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3686 on: May 22, 2017, 08:47:42 pm »
he won't, he's had a few tough ones and got quite angry with interviewers so fully expecting that one to be a car crash
On the plus side for him, it's Friday of a bank holiday weekend so no one will be watching
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3687 on: May 22, 2017, 08:51:27 pm »
On the plus side for him, it's Friday of a bank holiday weekend so no one will be watching
or on the downside it's still a story on sunday

Online Libertine

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,498
  • Nothing behind me, everything ahead of me
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3688 on: May 22, 2017, 08:53:54 pm »
it was obvious - the man loves being a total bastard as an interviewer and does it well

Think it's more that he despises people/politicians bullshitting and not answering straight.

He's excellent at it and generally is fair in giving everyone a hard time.

Just a shame that he lost all objectivity on the Brexit issue - like most of the British media, he's got a complete blind spot when it comes to Europe.

Online Trada

  • Fully paid up member of the JC cult. Ex-Tory boy. Corbyn's Chief Hagiographer. Sometimes hasn't got a kloop.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,812
  • Trada
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3689 on: May 22, 2017, 09:02:56 pm »
he won't, he's had a few tough ones and got quite angry with interviewers so fully expecting that one to be a car crash

I see nothing wrong with anger it shows passion.

I like the fact that May thinks Jeremy is a modern day Svengali pulling all the strings even on the Tory manifesto with his trickery.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3690 on: May 22, 2017, 09:05:57 pm »
Think it's more that he despises people/politicians bullshitting and not answering straight.

He's excellent at it and generally is fair in giving everyone a hard time.

Just a shame that he lost all objectivity on the Brexit issue - like most of the British media, he's got a complete blind spot when it comes to Europe.
what did he do on Brexit?

I like the fact that May thinks Jeremy is a modern day Svengali pulling all the strings even on the Tory manifesto with his trickery.
:lmao

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3691 on: May 22, 2017, 09:21:44 pm »
Welsh Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 44% (+9)
CON: 34% (-7)
PC: 9% (-2)
LDEM: 6% (-1)
UKIP: 5% (+1)

(via @YouGov / 18 - 21 May)

2015

Labour - 36.9%
Conservative - 27.2%
UKIP - 13.6%
Plaid - 12.1%
Lib Dems - 6.5%
Greens - 2.6%

The good news for Labour, if this holds up nationally, "In April, 69% of 2015 Labour voters said they planned to vote Labour again, that number is now up to 87%. Labour seems to be pulling its vote together." (Yougov analysis). The bad news is that 87% of 2015 isn't winning. The Momentum "phone your nan and ask her not to vote Tory" campaign is quite possibly a good way to target some important voters this election.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,044
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3692 on: May 22, 2017, 09:38:08 pm »
Surely it comes down to 'my children' and not 'me' when talking about inheritance?

Exactly, "your children", which is why you are functionally no different to anyone else who pass along their wealth to their lineage.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 09:40:56 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Online Trada

  • Fully paid up member of the JC cult. Ex-Tory boy. Corbyn's Chief Hagiographer. Sometimes hasn't got a kloop.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,812
  • Trada
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3693 on: May 22, 2017, 09:46:57 pm »
 Michael Crick‏Verified account @MichaelLCrick

All of a sudden previously hidden Cabinet ministers have come to life. It's almost as if Lynton Crosby has ordered a mass Cabinet tweet
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Offline wordroam

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 354
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3694 on: May 22, 2017, 09:47:36 pm »
That is exactly right.

Fundamentally the problem is that we have a welfare system that is based on the expectation of people retiring at 60/65 and dying 10-15 years afterwards. It also operates as a massive ponzi scheme, whereby the contributions of those who are working are used to fund payments to those who have already "cashed out".

This is now unsustainable for two reasons. Firstly, the demographic time bomb of the baby boomers' retirement has finally arrived. This is, of course, something which governments of both red and blue persuasion have seen coming for at least 40 years, except it has never been politically expedient to do anything about it, so the can kept being kicked down the road. The second factor is not only are there more pensioners, they are living longer, in most cases around double the 10-15 year timeframe expected when the welfare system was introduced.

As if that were not enough of a financial burden on the working age population, successive government policies over the last 30 years or so have seen, and sustained, a monumental asset bubble in the form of an overheated property market. The financial crisis of 2008 was the golden opportunity to correct some of that madness but instead the - Labour - government of the day did its level best to keep that bubble inflated by printing money on a scale not seen since the Weimar Republic.

The consequence of this is that fewer people can afford to get on the housing ladder and are stuck renting for years on end, and in the meantime pensioners and the middle-aged are sitting on assets which have benefited from huge leveraged gains. So there's been, in effect, a monumental transfer of wealth from Generation X and the millennials to the baby boomers. Of course, those baby boomers aren't going to be around for too much longer, so all that unearned wealth they've managed to accumulate will, absent any drastic change in the way we treat and tax capital, be passed on to their children, which will entrench class division and have a detrimental effect on social mobility, as inherited wealth always does.

The policy as outlined in the Tory manifesto was a sensible start at addressing both of these huge issues and was particularly brave because they must have known full well that a substantial amount of their core voters would hate it but they announced it anyway because it is the right thing to do in the long term. It's disappointing, then, that after four days of howls of outrage from the Daily Mail, pensioners and selfish bastards upset by the prospect of losing their precious inheritance, they've done a complete U-turn on this, thus guaranteeing that no party will dare touch the issue again in the foreseeable future.

Those problems aren't going to go away in the meantime.

This housing 'wealth' is basically bollocks. It's speculative 'bubble' money who's only 'value' can at best be in moving elsewhere, or remortgaging. It's main effect is preventing an entire  generation from getting properly housed.

What we have here is a clusterfuck of mixed objectives and 'morals' - the tax would only effect ... the children.  What's the point ? We're trying to recycle a 'wealth' that shouldn't exist in the first place but for a craven economic situation.

Fix the bubble (I think that means get rid), fix social care but don't get the two problems mixed up.

Offline cloggypop

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,308
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3695 on: May 22, 2017, 10:15:34 pm »

Offline cloggypop

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,308
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3696 on: May 22, 2017, 10:24:06 pm »
Tories reduced to outright lies at the moment

@CCHQPress: Jeremy Corbyn's plan to pay for elderly care: increasing the basic rate of income tax to 25p for millions of working people #GE2017

Offline JackBauer

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,017
    • Some statistics
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3697 on: May 22, 2017, 10:46:36 pm »
This housing 'wealth' is basically bollocks. It's speculative 'bubble' money who's only 'value' can at best be in moving elsewhere, or remortgaging. It's main effect is preventing an entire  generation from getting properly housed.

What we have here is a clusterfuck of mixed objectives and 'morals' - the tax would only effect ... the children.  What's the point ? We're trying to recycle a 'wealth' that shouldn't exist in the first place but for a craven economic situation.

Fix the bubble (I think that means get rid), fix social care but don't get the two problems mixed up.

I see what you're saying but I don't think those issues are easily separable. It really comes down to who holds assets and who doesn't. At the moment we are asking working age people, who are often living hand-to-mouth, to shoulder the burden of care costs of an asset-rich older generation.

The manifesto promise was a starting point for more equitable treatment, but now May has shit herself and has decided to make the young pay for the old again.

I don't agree that the original proposal only affected "the children" (presumably you meant the descendants of those needing care who stood to inherit less?). It was a way of asking better off pensioners to contribute towards the ever-increasing costs of their own care rather than placing the burden on a poorer younger generation.
DAMMIT!

Online Trada

  • Fully paid up member of the JC cult. Ex-Tory boy. Corbyn's Chief Hagiographer. Sometimes hasn't got a kloop.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,812
  • Trada
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3698 on: May 22, 2017, 10:49:14 pm »
Just saw the rags front page on Skynews its a fucking disgrace.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,265
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3699 on: May 22, 2017, 10:52:04 pm »
Just saw the rags front page on Skynews its a fucking disgrace.
I thought they all said U-turn?

Isn't that good??
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,906
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3700 on: May 22, 2017, 10:52:39 pm »
Exactly, "your children", which is why you are functionally no different to anyone else who pass along their wealth to their lineage.

If a person can't pass some of their wealth to their children what is the incentive for them accumulating that wealth in their first place (and I'm not talking about the super rich)? Either people won't bother and they will just spunk it all on shite they don't need or they will just find ways to transfer it to their children well before they die.

You have to find a way to tax inheritance which doesn't stop people from saving, something people in this country are already not very good at doing.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,265
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3701 on: May 22, 2017, 10:53:55 pm »
If a person can't pass some of their wealth to their children what is the incentive for them accumulating that wealth in their first place (and I'm not talking about the super rich)? Either people won't bother and they will just spunk it all on shite they don't need or they will just find ways to transfer it to their children well before they die.

You have to find a way to tax inheritance which doesn't stop people from saving, something people in this country are already not very good at doing.
This is the least left wing stance ever.

Where's your moral compass?

Seriously.  Unearned income is a huge barrier to equality.... 
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,610
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3702 on: May 22, 2017, 10:57:32 pm »
This is the least left wing stance ever.

Where's your moral compass?

Seriously.  Unearned income is a huge barrier to equality.... 

Why can we not tax the shit out of them? Lower the limit of inheritance tax to 250k or less?

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,906
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3703 on: May 22, 2017, 11:03:03 pm »
This is the least left wing stance ever.

Where's your moral compass?

Seriously.  Unearned income is a huge barrier to equality.... 

It's very simple. My parents came here with fuck all, they worked their bollocks off, they didn't earn a lot but they didn't spend a lot either, not going on holidays, or eating out, don't drink or smoke and they have accumulated wealth by those means. What would be the point in them doing so if the tax man would just take whatever they managed to put away when they pop their clogs?
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,507
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3704 on: May 22, 2017, 11:07:40 pm »
It's very simple. My parents came here with fuck all, they worked their bollocks off, they didn't earn a lot but they didn't spend a lot either, not going on holidays, or eating out, don't drink or smoke and they have accumulated wealth by those means. What would be the point in them doing so if the tax man would just take whatever they managed to put away when they pop their clogs?

Are they complaining about it though, or are they content with their lack of drinking, smoking and current number of holidays? Unless they are, it sounds a bit like Elmo called your position out

Also, your line of reasoning suggests people can achieve what they did starting with fuck all. So why do you think you need a headstart that they didn't have? Are you that inferior?

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,265
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3705 on: May 22, 2017, 11:07:41 pm »
It's very simple. My parents came here with fuck all, they worked their bollocks off, they didn't earn a lot but they didn't spend a lot either, not going on holidays, or eating out, don't drink or smoke and they have accumulated wealth by those means. What would be the point in them doing so if the tax man would just take whatever they managed to put away when they pop their clogs?
The tax man?  That tax man as you call it is paying for the NHS, schools, welfare.

So equality is ok as long as you're all right?  This isn't about your parents, it's about you.  You getting money which is totally unearned.

Whilst I'm assuming it's not a fortune, many people won't have that advantage.  You therefore have an inherently unfair advantage on people who don't have parents in the psoition of your.

It's inherently unfair.  This windfall has nothing to do with you, your efforts or your endeavours.

You call for equality, yet when it comes to your windfall your happy to dismiss it?

I'm sorry, but your moral compass seems entirely skewed from where I'm standing.  Inheritance tax is the most just of all taxes and we should accept that and pay it rather than being so selfish.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Felch Aid

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,556
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3706 on: May 22, 2017, 11:10:21 pm »
Just saw the rags front page on Skynews its a fucking disgrace.

Just heard about this.

Desperate stuff from Murdoch but not a surprise.

Online Peabee

  • SKPB! Is goin' down der Asd.....der Waitrose.....anyone wannany hummus?
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,723
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3707 on: May 22, 2017, 11:12:45 pm »
If a person can't pass some of their wealth to their children what is the incentive for them accumulating that wealth in their first place (and I'm not talking about the super rich)? Either people won't bother and they will just spunk it all on shite they don't need or they will just find ways to transfer it to their children well before they die.

You have to find a way to tax inheritance which doesn't stop people from saving, something people in this country are already not very good at doing.

That would help the economy to be fair.  Savings are a leak from the economy.

I think unearned income should be taxed heavily, including land and inheritance.  Wages up to a certain amount should be taxed lightly if at all.  That's the way to reduce inequality.   

We aren't walking through the storm now - we are the storm.

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3708 on: May 22, 2017, 11:13:25 pm »
It really comes down to who holds assets and who doesn't. At the moment we are asking working age people, who are often living hand-to-mouth, to shoulder the burden of care costs of an asset-rich older generation.

The manifesto promise was a starting point for more equitable treatment, but now May has shit herself and has decided to make the young pay for the old again.

This is a bit of a cherry picking of the financial relationships between generations, isn't it? (Not the first time in recent days).

There's a curve of how someone contributes to society over their lifetime, and a curve of how one is supported financially by society. It's surely misleading to suggest the 'young' (and we're really talking 18+, in terms of paying taxes) are paying the social care costs of the 'old' without asking who paid for the education of the 'young', before they contributed; yep, it was the 'old'. Not just education either; the infrastructure of society, the development and growth of the companies the young now work for, the health and social costs associated with the habits of the 'young' (particularly alcohol). Not forgetting also that this terrible burden now faced by the 'young' in providing for the 'old' was once, of course, paid by the then-young-now-old, for their elders in turn.

I can't help feeling there's a slippery slope (and certainly a Thatcherite individualist element) in this argument. Do we start penalising women, for increased health costs relating to childbirth - at precisely the moment their contribution dips, no less? Are those with savings to be forced to use BUPA rather than the NHS? That might sound tempting - but it's actually an old Tory argument: the follow up is why should they contribute to the NHS if they don't use it? Then why should they contribute to public education costs when they send little Tarquin to a posh private school? Once we start pushing the rich to pay for their own services, we break the principles of taxation for social provision; we open the chasm to small government, low taxation, every one for themselves provision.

If we need more money for social care and equitable pensions in an ageing society, it must be done through fair and transparent taxation (and I support much heavier inheritance taxes; just not one based on how healthy you were in the years before death). The Tory social care policy is charging right after the point of delivery. That's not a policy that the left should be embracing.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:15:05 pm by redmark »
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline RK7

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,725
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3709 on: May 22, 2017, 11:22:54 pm »
If a person can't pass some of their wealth to their children what is the incentive for them accumulating that wealth in their first place (and I'm not talking about the super rich)? Either people won't bother and they will just spunk it all on shite they don't need or they will just find ways to transfer it to their children well before they die.

You have to find a way to tax inheritance which doesn't stop people from saving, something people in this country are already not very good at doing.

If property wasn't seen as an investment and this was actively discouraged then we would go some way to fixing this problem. Who needs to own more than one house? It's so wrong. If you want more than one house then taxes on it should be huge.

Nobody should be expected to pay for care because they were unlucky enough to get the wrong illness.

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3710 on: May 22, 2017, 11:26:18 pm »
If a person can't pass some of their wealth to their children what is the incentive for them accumulating that wealth in their first place (and I'm not talking about the super rich)? Either people won't bother and they will just spunk it all on shite they don't need or they will just find ways to transfer it to their children well before they die.

You have to find a way to tax inheritance which doesn't stop people from saving, something people in this country are already not very good at doing.

The answer to the problem framed that way would be that general taxation could be higher; then there'd be no need for punitive inheritance taxes. There's nothing inherently good about 'accumulating wealth' - and plenty bad, when we're arguing about which sector of society we can't afford to look after properly.
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3711 on: May 22, 2017, 11:28:49 pm »
Just saw the rags front page on Skynews its a fucking disgrace.
what, a pro Tory newspaper milking the Ira thing?? Shocker!!

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,906
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3712 on: May 22, 2017, 11:33:37 pm »
The tax man?  That tax man as you call it is paying for the NHS, schools, welfare.

So equality is ok as long as you're all right?  This isn't about your parents, it's about you.  You getting money which is totally unearned.

Whilst I'm assuming it's not a fortune, many people won't have that advantage.  You therefore have an inherently unfair advantage on people who don't have parents in the psoition of your.

It's inherently unfair.  This windfall has nothing to do with you, your efforts or your endeavours.

You call for equality, yet when it comes to your windfall your happy to dismiss it?

I'm sorry, but your moral compass seems entirely skewed from where I'm standing.  Inheritance tax is the most just of all taxes and we should accept that and pay it rather than being so selfish.

Well it is the tax man who you actually collects the money right?

As for whether it's earned or not by me, my parents earned it through their endeavours and to then try and strip them of their right to do with it as they wish is equally morally questionable - they didn't steal it, and paid PAYE on it as they earned it.

And what about people who have family homes or businesses, corner shops, farms etc which tend to be passed on one generation to the next. What happens to the bloke whose worked on his parents farm when they pass away? Does he bid on it in a government auction? Or just apply for a council house and hope he gets one soon?

As for my moral compass, we don't come from the same place or culture to be honest so I wouldn't expect you to see things the way I do. I also doubt I'm the only one whose parents own their own home and doesn't think it unreasonable that my family home stay with my family - I'm just arguing the point.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,906
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3713 on: May 22, 2017, 11:39:23 pm »
The answer to the problem framed that way would be that general taxation could be higher; then there'd be no need for punitive inheritance taxes. There's nothing inherently good about 'accumulating wealth' - and plenty bad, when we're arguing about which sector of society we can't afford to look after properly.

If your talking about social care, I don't think inheritance tax should pay for it (and that's nothing to do with the fact my parents own a 3 bedroom semi!). We don't charge anyone anything additional at any other stages of life when they are sick why do it when they are old? Someone could get struck down with an illness at 20 or 30 and their care would be paid for but if they are getting on a bit then they have to pay for it? It's a slippery slope to start charging people for specific illnesses at specific times of their lives.

Also, it may not be great to accumulate too much wealth but at the same time the rates of personal debt in this country are nothing to be proud of either and it's a ticking time bomb.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:41:56 pm by west_london_red »
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3714 on: May 22, 2017, 11:42:27 pm »
If your talking about social care, I don't think inheritance tax should pay for it (and that's nothing to do with the fact my parents own a 3 bedroom semi!). We don't charge anyone anything additional at any other stages of life when they are sick why do it when they are old? Someone could get struck down with an illness at 20 or 30 and their care would be paid for but if they are getting on a bit then they have to pay for it? It's a slippery slope to start charging people for specific illnesses at specific times of their lives.

I agree, as I posted above the post you quoted.

The more general point was that if people have significant wealth that may or may not be at risk from inheritance tax, at the same time as we as a society are struggling to pay for decent health, education, welfare and social care (amongst other things), perhaps general taxes aren't high enough in the first place. We wouldn't need to worry about inheritance tax, if we didn't let people amass all that wealth in the first place :).
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,906
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3715 on: May 22, 2017, 11:49:02 pm »
I agree, as I posted above the post you quoted.

The more general point was that if people have significant wealth that may or may not be at risk from inheritance tax, at the same time as we as a society are struggling to pay for decent health, education, welfare and social care (amongst other things), perhaps general taxes aren't high enough in the first place. We wouldn't need to worry about inheritance tax, if we didn't let people amass all that wealth in the first place :).


General taxes are not high enough, I think you can debate which taxes need to go up but it should be general taxation and not a tax paid only if you need care.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline JackBauer

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,017
    • Some statistics
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3716 on: May 22, 2017, 11:52:04 pm »
redmark - I will reply in a bit more detail tomorrow but I think the bigger point, and the issue no one really wants to address, is that the ponzi scheme has been exposed and the post-war social contract is ultimately unsustainable given the demands of the UK's ageing population.

It's not just about pension provision or social care. 40% of the entire NHS budget is spent treating pensioners, and state pensions account for over 40% of the entire welfare budget, but less than 20% of the population are pensioners. That percentage will increase in the coming years, and with that increase, so will the demands on the governmental budget, absent drastic reform.

This isn't as simple as "we need more money". The entire welfare state in its current form is structurally fucked.
DAMMIT!

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3717 on: May 22, 2017, 11:55:22 pm »
redmark - I will reply in a bit more detail tomorrow but I think the bigger point, and the issue no one really wants to address, is that the ponzi scheme has been exposed and the post-war social contract is ultimately unsustainable given the demands of the UK's ageing population.

It's not just about pension provision or social care. 40% of the entire NHS budget is spent treating pensioners, and state pensions account for over 40% of the entire welfare budget, but less than 20% of the population are pensioners. That percentage will increase in the coming years, and with that increase, so will the demands on the governmental budget, absent drastic reform.

This isn't as simple as "we need more money". The entire welfare state in its current form is structurally fucked.

The young have the time and opportunity to devise a new social contract. The old don't, and honoured their end of it in good faith.
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,906
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3718 on: May 22, 2017, 11:58:35 pm »
If property wasn't seen as an investment and this was actively discouraged then we would go some way to fixing this problem. Who needs to own more than one house? It's so wrong. If you want more than one house then taxes on it should be huge.

Nobody should be expected to pay for care because they were unlucky enough to get the wrong illness.

As I said previously buy to let is a symptom rather then a cause. If property prices and rents weren't going up so fast and interest rates so low property wouldn't be that profitable as a business and buy to let's wouldn't be a problem. Build more houses and get interest rates to a more normal level and suddenly buy to let won't be so attractive.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,388
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #3719 on: May 23, 2017, 12:06:32 am »
Just saw the rags front page on Skynews its a fucking disgrace.

Who could have predicted that Corbyn's backing of Sinn Fein and the IRA could possibly be used against him?

Nia Griffith shows how it's done:

"I'm not going to speak for my leader, but I can certainly tell you, as somebody who is old enough to remember the Troubles in Northern Ireland - I had friends who actually served in Northern Ireland - I absolutely and unequivocally condemn IRA bombings in Northern Ireland."

The Torygraph is running with this:

However last night, after a high-profile intervention from his own shadow defence secretary, his aides issued a statement to clarify his views.

Answering five questions set by James Brokenshire, the Conservative Northern Ireland Secretary, Mr Corbyn's aides said the leader does believe the IRA committed terrorist acts, is happy to equivocally condemn the group and believes that it cannot be equated with the British army's role in the troubles.

They also added that: "Jeremy has said that the he was opposed to the IRA's armed campaign."

However concerns remain about why Mr Corbyn failed to answer the questions himself just hours before the statement was published.

Labour aides failed to respond to a request for comment on why the party leader failed to set out his views earlier in the day.


This isn't going away until Corbyn says that himself and probably not even then. Gerry Adams hasn't really helped by saying Corbyn had a 'very modest' part in the peace process through his support of Sinn Fein.

I'd keep your powder dry - there'll be plenty of outrage to come in the next two weeks. Expect the Hamas and Hezbollah 'friends' stories to start next week or next time May fucks up an interview.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 12:15:58 am by Alan_X »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.