Author Topic: Southampton Round Table  (Read 51013 times)

Offline Dar

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #320 on: March 20, 2013, 02:42:24 pm »

Gerrard was the one I noticed most because he is captain. He literally strolled around in occasions while Southampton ran through our midfield. It was as if he decided "well this isn't going to work is it" then decided to "not work" himself.
He wasn't the only one obviously.

The Gerrard thing has been happening for awhile hasnt it, just when we lose its highlighted, much as he unable to play(or doesn't have the patience) to play 'tiki taka' football as he always wants to go direct asap.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #321 on: March 20, 2013, 02:49:28 pm »
Whether through neccessity or choice we haven't played Tika Taka since Xmas in my opinion,  we play a hybred of it with more variation in the range of passing and generally its been quite effective.
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Offline hassinator

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #322 on: March 20, 2013, 03:13:26 pm »
Ibe on the bench to me again hints at not preparing for the game with due respect and consideration. We played like a team expecting sixty-minute party subs, but not like one that would ever get to do them.



wallop. maybe we were seeking to 'build on momentum' but think this comment nails it.

Offline hassinator

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #323 on: March 20, 2013, 05:46:04 pm »
I agree with you on this mate, the defense has been no better with Carra at the back than it has with skrtel. For all the talk of a leader, we've still  conceded goals once Jamie has come back into the team. So that tells me its a fundamentally a structural problem rather than a personnel.

or perhaps that neither are good enough for a first 11 that wants to play in the champions league?

fair comment that skrtel is going to be low on confidence but if he wants to get back into the team he needs to earn it.

a key issue is clearly our defensive vulnerability both in open play and in set pieces.

will we buy two central defenders with coates surely going and carra retiring?

i would like to see kelly get a chance in a central role but i haven't seen him play there on more than a handful of occasions.

Offline wah00ey

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #324 on: March 20, 2013, 05:48:39 pm »
You don't think 'mentality' plays a part in Man Utd's consistent ability to come back from one, two or even three nil down?
It doesn't matter who you play, what formation you use or what tactics you try but if the team you put out isn't "up for it" then you're going to struggle.  It's the key thing from last weekend.  We might have fought back after half time if the players were interested but the fight wasn't there throughout the game and from most of the players even when Southampton offered us a chance.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #325 on: March 22, 2013, 12:12:24 pm »
I've spent the last 3 days reading this thread on and off.  Some great points of view, my personal favourites from PoP, wickedbark & lankyguy.  I also managed to catch half of TAW on the way into work.

My view is that I was very disappointed to see such a drop in level off the back of a very successful, in terms of team progression, 3/4 months.  You would not expect to see so many part of the team dysfunctional.  It was kind of scary.

The lads on TAW made a good point about the argument for and against Rodgers.  You can make a very good case for both.  If I wasn't so emotionally entrenched I would actually find it interesting.  But it is much more than just interesting.

I agree with those that say Rodgers sets out to pummel sides.  That's what he wants and that is reflected in the team line up and style.  He is most certainly an idealist, even though he was not sold to us on this premise.  To be fair, I have a lot of time for this approach.  I think football eventually rewards this approach if it is built on something substantial and not just bravado.  Even more so in this league. 

We really don't know whether Rodgers is simply just a talented salesman benefitting from short term footballing bailouts provided by the likes of Suarez or Gerrard.  Or if he is real deal and wants to build something that will last more than a few games or a season.  As the TAW guys say, there is a strong argument both ways.  But we, as the fans, don't really have enough information at this stage.  We can only just see how this plays out and hope Rodgers is that man.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #326 on: March 22, 2013, 12:23:57 pm »


We really don't know whether Rodgers is simply just a talented salesman benefitting from short term footballing bailouts provided by the likes of Suarez or Gerrard.   

Sorry mate but this is just an indiciation to me how little fans know about football. To even consider Rodgers as a salesman, and I know it´s just expressing concerns, is not a true reflection of what is visible on the pitch so far this season.

Games like these happen because he is probably expecting too much too fast. He is getting carried away by his own vision of football too fast sometimes but that´s his character, probably because of his young age as a manager.

I would think of a salesman selling more than he can offer but that´s not the case here, I would think of Hodgson as a "salesman" to be honest. But in no way is Rodgers selling anything than passion backed up with pure knowledge of the game. With better players, we will benefit from this big time. With this bunch of players, every manager had problems, Roy, Kenny...

« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 12:30:22 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #327 on: March 22, 2013, 12:34:19 pm »
I think its a bigger issue with the media and players than fans - if BR has convinced the players thats great - but the media will chip away at him until he delivers success - they will pillory his efforts as they did with rafa, they'll mock his ideas - they will do it armed with hindsight, ignorance and whatever motive sells papers and for some they will do it simply because they despise LFC.

Its why as long as the lad supports us we have to support him and ignore the rest. Rafa's champs leaguie success bought him time from the fans - Rodgers has been given time so far but if the start of next season is rough the media will be on his case and as we saw wiith kenny and rafa the sheep will follow and its then that believing he's the real deal rather than a saleman will hit home for players and fans.
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Offline Quaid

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #328 on: March 22, 2013, 01:30:06 pm »
We really don't know whether Rodgers is simply just a talented salesman benefitting from short term footballing bailouts provided by the likes of Suarez or Gerrard.  Or if he is real deal and wants to build something that will last more than a few games or a season.

 ::) I can't stand that term. I struggle to comprehend how any of our fans can't see the progress we've made since losing 3-0 to West Brom in August. How people can still coin Rodgers a 'salesman' is beyond me.

I think since the QPR match at Loftus Road at the end of 2012 we've hands down played the best football in the Premiership. The problem with playing such aesthetically pleasing football, combined with the numerous annihilations which have taken place at Anfield, is fans grow too optimistic and expect wins against teams like Southampton. When these wins do not come, all optimism is shattered and fans become manipulated by the views of the media/pundits alike, until the next 4-0 win where everything is restored.

Would be nice if fans could take a step back and appreciate the bigger picture. Our first team finally has a style and philosophy to adhere to, something which has been lacking in recent seasons. The newly reformed U21's squad (reserves) are having a belter of a season, with form only dipping lately due to some unfortunate, long-term injuries to numerous key players in the squad. I think its great to see the entire club on the same page as our manager is trying to instil his philosophy throughout all playing levels at the club, something which takes time but in seasons to come could potentially pay dividends. Rome wasn't built in a day.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #329 on: March 22, 2013, 01:33:48 pm »
Sorry mate but this is just an indiciation to me how little fans know about football. To even consider Rodgers as a salesman, and I know it´s just expressing concerns, is not a true reflection of what is visible on the pitch so far this season.

Games like these happen because he is probably expecting too much too fast. He is getting carried away by his own vision of football too fast sometimes but that´s his character, probably because of his young age as a manager.

I would think of a salesman selling more than he can offer but that´s not the case here, I would think of Hodgson as a "salesman" to be honest. But in no way is Rodgers selling anything than passion backed up with pure knowledge of the game. With better players, we will benefit from this big time. With this bunch of players, every manager had problems, Roy, Kenny...


Are you questioning my knowledge of football Steve??  It is all I know! :)

I think I expressed it in the extreme when I said salesman.  Of course, I think for us at least that word brings up negative connotations.  But everything requires a bit of selling.  Mourinho etc are also salesman.  But my point is that any manager needs something to back that up.  He needs a structure.  Literally most people with a decent knowledge of football could start with several attackers and go for it, the way Rodgers does.  That kind of approach will be hit and miss. 

It comes back to something I've been thinking about over the last few seasons.  We need more than anything someone who is committed to the job for more than 2-3 seasons.  We need someone that wants to build something that is sustainable.  That is what this club has been about and it is what this club will always demand, at least until it is completely washed out of the fabric by years of mediocrity.  And when I say that I mean us fans too.  If we provide mediocre support and crave the short-term fix, that's what we will turn into. 

In my darker moments, my concerns are that Rodgers is simply showcasing.  But I don't truly believe that.  Let's see what he does.  He deserves our support.  But the last few years have made me a little bitter and twisted.  I'm sceptical, when I should be optimistic.  But anyone who puts their life and soul into the club, like Benitez and Dalglish in recent years, will always have my respect.  I don't think Rodgers is quite there yet.

Sorry to go off on a tangent.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #330 on: March 22, 2013, 01:40:08 pm »
Brendan is going 4-2-4 but unfortunately the 4 attacking players aren't pressing so it's leaving too much work for the midfield 2. If the midfield 2 had more mobility then it wouldn't be a problem but they don't. I think we either need to return to 4-3-3 and drop an attacker for a midfielder who is going to provide more solidity (for example Henderson for Downing) or if we are intent on playing with 4 attackers we need a holding midfielder with more mobility and energy than Lucas.

That said if we finally perfect holding a defensive line and (imho) we are currently nowhere near good enough to leave space in behind the defenders but if/when we start pushing high up the pitch then the likes of Lucas will have less ground to cover therefore his lack of pace wont be an issue.

Seriously? We can only play 424 (i.e. a 4-2-3-1 with someone who's not a CM/CAM in the middle of the '3') with someone in the '2' who's got more mobility and energy than Lucas? How about the exact opposite, i.e. that we can ONLY go with that formation if (and only if) one of the '2' is Lucas and the other, Gerrard, is fully committed to his defensive, harrying, covering, holding duties?
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #331 on: March 22, 2013, 01:48:08 pm »
The match vs Southampton demonstrated a few things:

1. We do not (yet) have a good enough, methodical, and well-drilled, defensive philosophy.

2. Suarez cannot play effectively in the old Gerrard role in a 4231.

3. We have not yet developed the mentality and ability consistently to 'hunt in packs' upon losing possession 'up top' and, failing to recover possession, fouling without getting carded in the opposition half to prevent the quick counter-attack

4. An out-of-form, distracted, slightly injured (perhaps), not 100% fit and fully committed Johnson is a major liability.

5. Brad Jones needs to be moved on, despite being a fantastic lad and an 'adequate' goal-keeper for a more 'normal', mid-table English side.
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Offline wah00ey

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #332 on: March 22, 2013, 01:55:30 pm »

4. An out-of-form, distracted, slightly injured (perhaps), not 100% fit and fully committed Johnson is a major liability.

One of the (few) interesting things for me about the upcoming Internationals is how Johnson plays.

Update - not even on the bench!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 08:23:48 pm by wah00ey »
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Offline mulfella

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #333 on: March 22, 2013, 02:04:44 pm »
I think its a bigger issue with the media and players than fans - if BR has convinced the players thats great - but the media will chip away at him until he delivers success - they will pillory his efforts as they did with rafa, they'll mock his ideas - they will do it armed with hindsight, ignorance and whatever motive sells papers and for some they will do it simply because they despise LFC.


We've already seen the effects of this on some of our own fans, with some having picked up the 'David Brent' tag the media have snidely labelled him with.

Even in this thread we have a poster asking if Rogers is 'just a talented salesman'.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #334 on: March 22, 2013, 03:08:18 pm »
Even in this thread we have a poster asking if Rogers is 'just a talented salesman'.
Think you are taking this out of context mate.  I certainly don't want to be someone driving this type of discussion.

Offline Quaid

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #335 on: March 22, 2013, 03:25:34 pm »
We really don't know whether Rodgers is simply just a talented salesman benefitting from short term footballing bailouts provided by the likes of Suarez or Gerrard.  Or if he is real deal and wants to build something that will last more than a few games or a season.  As the TAW guys say, there is a strong argument both ways.  But we, as the fans, don't really have enough information at this stage.  We can only just see how this plays out and hope Rodgers is that man.

Your comments suggest otherwise, and you have fuelled a 'Salesman' discussion which you say you wished to avoid. Perhaps if you'd said 'I' instead of 'We' your comments would have been taken more lightly, but by saying 'We' you alienate all Liverpool fans as if some common consensus exists amongst us surrounding Rodgers pedigree as a manager, or lack of in this case. Irrespective of disappointing losses to Southampton, Villa etc., or where we finish this season or even next season for that matter, Rodgers should be given the time he needs to develop his philosophy at the club. That said, hopefully he'll get the time he needs to 'sell' his ideas to some of our more disillusioned fans  ;)
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #336 on: March 22, 2013, 04:16:39 pm »
Your comments suggest otherwise, and you have fuelled a 'Salesman' discussion which you say you wished to avoid. Perhaps if you'd said 'I' instead of 'We' your comments would have been taken more lightly, but by saying 'We' you alienate all Liverpool fans as if some common consensus exists amongst us surrounding Rodgers pedigree as a manager, or lack of in this case. Irrespective of disappointing losses to Southampton, Villa etc., or where we finish this season or even next season for that matter, Rodgers should be given the time he needs to develop his philosophy at the club. That said, hopefully he'll get the time he needs to 'sell' his ideas to some of our more disillusioned fans  ;)
that's simply not what I meant.  I don't think I can speak for the majority, even if I wanted to.

Offline SweetSilverSevens

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #337 on: March 22, 2013, 05:10:12 pm »
Playing a 4-2-4, requires two natural holding midfielders with energy and steel. Like we did under Kenny with Lucas/Spearing, allowing the front four to roam. The team had balance, whereas the team against Southampton did not in anyway shape or form. And I think Brendan will need to take some accountability, as with that team line up, we had already lost before we stepped foot on that pitch.

Ibe on the bench to me again hints at not preparing for the game with due respect and consideration.

I would agree with this point too. The team sheet suggested that Brendan was too overconfident going into that game IMO. I hope he never makes such a silly mistake. Without Lucas, we should've switched to a 4-3-3 straight away..... even if that means making last minute tactical changes, because the players do know how to play that system. For me, he should've planned for 4-3-3 anyway, after the problems we had against spurs (that was masked over by the result). We should've protected the defense (which was without Reina/Carra/Lucas), not left it more exposed. School boy error.... he should never go with 4-2-4. He should stick with his trusting his ideas and natural instincts again. Because surely, completely lacking in any sort of midfield control is his biggest nightmare?

Having said that, I am totally behind Rodgers BTW. It was disappointing, simply because I felt that result was avoidable, but that starting line up never gave us a chance of competing.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #338 on: March 22, 2013, 07:08:20 pm »
Are you questioning my knowledge of football Steve??  It is all I know! :)

No, no, no.... not at all mate ;)

I see your point but to me he has all what´s required to give us this structure football wise, I am more worried about his standing when unpopular decisions are required. I am not sure if he would go for what he thinks to be best opposed to what he thinks to be best considering the circumstances. It´s a fine line anyway but in my opinion a manager should make his own mistakes.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 07:12:29 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #339 on: March 22, 2013, 07:12:09 pm »
There are very few people I listen to and take on board what they say on this site, but Hank certainly isn't one of them.



No need to thank me Hank. I love you to mate. ;)




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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #340 on: March 22, 2013, 07:21:02 pm »
There are very few people I listen to and take on board what they say on this site, but Hank certainly isn't one of them.



No need to thank me Hank. I love you to mate. ;)




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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #341 on: March 23, 2013, 01:41:51 am »
Keyboard... soaked
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Any chance of a reply, or did I miss it :)
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #342 on: March 23, 2013, 01:57:44 am »
How much is a lot further up the table do you think we'll be?

Reply to this? I missed this one if that's the one you mean? Sorry about that.

I think if the attack can be maintained, I would be very hopeful of Top Three next season. But I think that whoever is top of the league or even top two, might pull away early and create a big gap. So I think 3rd for us at best, but we might be still a good bit behind the top team.
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Offline NOTBORNIN1982

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #343 on: March 23, 2013, 01:59:46 am »
I would be very hopeful of Top Three next season. But I think that whoever is top of the league or even top two, might pull away early and create a big gap. So I think 3rd for us at best, but we might be still a good bit behind the top team.

You realise you will be quoted on that  :wave
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #344 on: March 23, 2013, 02:08:01 am »
You realise you will be quoted on that  :wave

It's an estimate, not a prophecy. If I get it wrong, it's because I'm not Nostradamus. Or I am. It gets very confusing after that. :D
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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #345 on: March 23, 2013, 02:16:40 am »
Reply to this? I missed this one if that's the one you mean? Sorry about that.

I think if the attack can be maintained, I would be very hopeful of Top Three next season. But I think that whoever is top of the league or even top two, might pull away early and create a big gap. So I think 3rd for us at best, but we might be still a good bit behind the top team.
I think that's really optimistic mate, what makes you think that? The summer signings are pivotal to that I guess? Confident?
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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #346 on: March 23, 2013, 02:20:35 am »
You realise you will be quoted on that  :wave
Well not my style anyway, to go rooting, maybe once in a blue moon if someone is really being a nob!
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Offline NOTBORNIN1982

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #347 on: March 23, 2013, 02:24:18 am »
Well not my style anyway, to go rooting, maybe once in a blue moon if someone is really being a nob!
It's an estimate, not a prophecy. If I get it wrong, it's because I'm not Nostradamus. Or I am. It gets very confusing after that. :D

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #348 on: March 23, 2013, 02:27:33 am »
I think that's really optimistic mate, what makes you think that? The summer signings are pivotal to that I guess? Confident?

Yep - that's my caveat. We need one more scorer, we need to keep Henderson and Downing, and we need one CB and someone to be back-up for Lucas - whether they buy him or he's at the club already. And the coaching staff need to sit down and figure out how to cope with Set Pieces defensively. I think Suarez will have a similar season to this one, Coutinho will be settled in, Sturridge will be injury-free, all the players will be more used to the system, any new players will come from similar systems and so will settle technically and tactically fast (although they might not settle mentally - that's a risk) and Rodgers will have his feet under the table, as someone else said earlier. So there is lots to be positive about. I could be pessimistic and say "oh we'll do the same or worse next season", but frankly, that's a shitty way to go through life and football. I prefer to be positive, and take the egg on my face if it goes pear-shaped. I wouldn't send players out onto the field thinking they were beaten already, and I don't support Liverpool thinking we'll only do okay. League winners might be a little beyond us, but I think we'll push hard for 3rd spot. I also think Arsenal might drop away, Everton will for sure, and who knows what shape Chelsea will be in, with yet another new manager and an ageing squad. The top 4 will come from us, City, United, Chelsea and Spurs I think. Arsenal for Chelsea is the only difference for me. Our style of football is built on dominating teams and releasing Suarez in space to get shots. Add in Sturridge, Coutinho, and AN Other with a good strike rate, and I think we'll continue to hammer lower teams (worth about 60 points per season), we'll at least do better in the shock home results (WBA, Villa) and we'll take points off the City, United, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal, although how many is up for debate. That should give us something close to 70 points.
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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #349 on: March 23, 2013, 02:38:31 am »
Yep - that's my caveat. We need one more scorer, we need to keep Henderson and Downing, and we need one CB and someone to be back-up for Lucas - whether they buy him or he's at the club already. And the coaching staff need to sit down and figure out how to cope with Set Pieces defensively. I think Suarez will have a similar season to this one, Coutinho will be settled in, Sturridge will be injury-free, all the players will be more used to the system, any new players will come from similar systems and so will settle technically and tactically fast (although they might not settle mentally - that's a risk) and Rodgers will have his feet under the table, as someone else said earlier. So there is lots to be positive about. I could be pessimistic and say "oh we'll do the same or worse next season", but frankly, that's a shitty way to go through life and football. I prefer to be positive, and take the egg on my face if it goes pear-shaped. I wouldn't send players out onto the field thinking they were beaten already, and I don't support Liverpool thinking we'll only do okay. League winners might be a little beyond us, but I think we'll push hard for 3rd spot. I also think Arsenal might drop away, Everton will for sure, and who knows what shape Chelsea will be in, with yet another new manager and an ageing squad. The top 4 will come from us, City, United, Chelsea and Spurs I think. Arsenal for Chelsea is the only difference for me. Our style of football is built on dominating teams and releasing Suarez in space to get shots. Add in Sturridge, Coutinho, and AN Other with a good strike rate, and I think we'll continue to hammer lower teams (worth about 60 points per season), we'll at least do better in the shock home results (WBA, Villa) and we'll take points off the City, United, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal, although how many is up for debate. That should give us something close to 70 points.
You have a brilliant tactical insight mate which I love reading, but I can't share your optimism, I wish I could, really. The reason I can't is because as a club you use your record buy and make the most of £35M for one thing, and secondly I don't think the team has bought into Rodgers' plan, they continue to look - as a team - all over the shop.

I wish it wasn't the case and hope we go on a great run and it all clicks, but I don't think I am the only doubting Thomas.
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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #350 on: March 23, 2013, 02:49:30 am »
You have a brilliant tactical insight mate which I love reading, but I can't share your optimism, I wish I could, really. The reason I can't is because as a club you use your record buy and make the most of £35M for one thing, and secondly I don't think the team has bought into Rodgers' plan, they continue to look - as a team - all over the shop.

I wish it wasn't the case and hope we go on a great run and it all clicks, but I don't think I am the only doubting Thomas.

Each to their own. If I was miraculously parachuted into that Liverpool team at the end of the season as the new manager, I would be quite happy with the foundations laid out by Rodgers, and Kenny before him. The system needs minor tweaks, a small number of additions, and to go hell for leather next season trying to pass teams into submission and releasing Suarez and Sturridge, Coutinho and whoever else on unsuspecting teams below us. One thing I would change is the need for caution against the big teams - I would reserve that for the teams that have caused us trouble this season. For the Uniteds etc., for me, it's better to go and give them a black eye, regardless of the result, and make sure they go away dreading the next game against us. That's how you instill fear into teams - not by necessarily beating them, but by running them into the ground so much that they wouldn't want to play you in a month of Sundays if they could help it.
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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #351 on: March 23, 2013, 03:27:40 am »
You have a brilliant tactical insight mate which I love reading, but I can't share your optimism, I wish I could, really. The reason I can't is because as a club you use your record buy and make the most of £35M for one thing, and secondly I don't think the team has bought into Rodgers' plan, they continue to look - as a team - all over the shop.

I wish it wasn't the case and hope we go on a great run and it all clicks, but I don't think I am the only doubting Thomas.
What do you base this opinion on? Since Christmas our points gained has been at least on a par with pretty much everybody in the league bar Utd. Does that not suggest it's starting to 'click'? Would that happen if the players hadn't bought into it? Also those you would perhaps think most resistant to Rodgers methods, the Kenny buys such as Henderson, Downing and Enrique, have all improved and been standout performers. In fact everyone who was at the club before Rodgers arrived, except for Martin Skrtel, is arguably playing better than they did last year. When players don't buy into a Manager's methods there are usually massive warning signs (Hodgson & Villas-Boas are recent examples), have we had any of those?

With regards the £35million, that's something that is on the club and those who have since left. It wouldn't be fair to tell Rodgers he has to use a player because of his pricetag, that's what happened at Chelsea with Torres and Shevchenko and we know how that went.

I don't think we should confuse being punished repeatedly for the same weaknesses as being all over the shop. Sometimes an attack-orientated team seems more 'all over the shop' because at the end of the day conceding goals makes it look like that. The way we are taught to treasure a clean sheet, that a 1-0 victory is better than a 3-2, is something of a fallacy, and probably stems from the old division of duties. It's frustrating conceding goals, but there's little to make me think we'll have to sacrifice the attacking progress we've made in order to address our weaknesses. That should set us up well for next year.

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #352 on: March 23, 2013, 09:15:55 am »
Yep - that's my caveat. We need one more scorer, we need to keep Henderson and Downing, and we need one CB and someone to be back-up for Lucas - whether they buy him or he's at the club already. And the coaching staff need to sit down and figure out how to cope with Set Pieces defensively. I think Suarez will have a similar season to this one, Coutinho will be settled in, Sturridge will be injury-free, all the players will be more used to the system, any new players will come from similar systems and so will settle technically and tactically fast (although they might not settle mentally - that's a risk) and Rodgers will have his feet under the table, as someone else said earlier. So there is lots to be positive about. I could be pessimistic and say "oh we'll do the same or worse next season", but frankly, that's a shitty way to go through life and football. I prefer to be positive, and take the egg on my face if it goes pear-shaped. I wouldn't send players out onto the field thinking they were beaten already, and I don't support Liverpool thinking we'll only do okay. League winners might be a little beyond us, but I think we'll push hard for 3rd spot. I also think Arsenal might drop away, Everton will for sure, and who knows what shape Chelsea will be in, with yet another new manager and an ageing squad. The top 4 will come from us, City, United, Chelsea and Spurs I think. Arsenal for Chelsea is the only difference for me. Our style of football is built on dominating teams and releasing Suarez in space to get shots. Add in Sturridge, Coutinho, and AN Other with a good strike rate, and I think we'll continue to hammer lower teams (worth about 60 points per season), we'll at least do better in the shock home results (WBA, Villa) and we'll take points off the City, United, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal, although how many is up for debate. That should give us something close to 70 points.

A lot of what you predict re final placings depends on the managerial merrygoround this summer. Unless city make a change I can see them dropping off, also, a new manager may well get the Chelsea team performing as we think they should be, if I had to bet a fiver I'd say Spurs could be the team to push for the title next season. AVB will get a strengthening kitty this summer, and should he keep hold of Bale they'll be a real force. If Moyes decides he's had enough of being a 'winner' across the park and moves on I can see Everton bottom half, and who knows what may well happen at the Emirates.
One thing's for sure mate, if we continue in the same vein as we have since Christmas, and can add maybe 1-2 first picks, and maybe 1-2 squad players it could well set us up nicely for a push at re cementing top 4. However, keeping Suarez will be a fundamental part of the plan.
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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #353 on: March 23, 2013, 11:09:14 am »
There are very few people I listen to and take on board what they say on this site, but Hank certainly isn't one of them.



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My point was building on what TAW guys were saying.  I agree.  You can make a decent argument both ways.  Talking about the positives, I like the fact Rodgers has got us scoring.  It sounds simple, but as a side this is a valuable trait rather than the skill being tied to 2 or 3 players within the squad.  We are on course to score 60+ goals which is a fantastic achievement for the first season.  We could even reach 70 if we do well in the last 8 games.  It's just about getting that balance right, which is a lot trickier than you would imagine.

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #354 on: March 23, 2013, 11:09:16 am »
One thing's for sure mate, if we continue in the same vein as we have since Christmas, and can add maybe 1-2 first picks, and maybe 1-2 squad players it could well set us up nicely for a push at re cementing top 4. However, keeping Suarez will be a fundamental part of the plan.

You could also say the plan is a fundamental part of keeping Suarez. If FSG are prepared to back their new transfer team (as they have previously) and it identifies and buys well  (as they did in January) I'd guess Suarez will buy into the perception of upwards momentum and stay another year.

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #355 on: March 23, 2013, 11:43:56 am »
Yep - that's my caveat. We need one more scorer, we need to keep Henderson and Downing, and we need one CB and someone to be back-up for Lucas - whether they buy him or he's at the club already. And the coaching staff need to sit down and figure out how to cope with Set Pieces defensively. I think Suarez will have a similar season to this one, Coutinho will be settled in, Sturridge will be injury-free, all the players will be more used to the system, any new players will come from similar systems and so will settle technically and tactically fast (although they might not settle mentally - that's a risk) and Rodgers will have his feet under the table, as someone else said earlier. So there is lots to be positive about. I could be pessimistic and say "oh we'll do the same or worse next season", but frankly, that's a shitty way to go through life and football. I prefer to be positive, and take the egg on my face if it goes pear-shaped. I wouldn't send players out onto the field thinking they were beaten already, and I don't support Liverpool thinking we'll only do okay. League winners might be a little beyond us, but I think we'll push hard for 3rd spot. I also think Arsenal might drop away, Everton will for sure, and who knows what shape Chelsea will be in, with yet another new manager and an ageing squad. The top 4 will come from us, City, United, Chelsea and Spurs I think. Arsenal for Chelsea is the only difference for me. Our style of football is built on dominating teams and releasing Suarez in space to get shots. Add in Sturridge, Coutinho, and AN Other with a good strike rate, and I think we'll continue to hammer lower teams (worth about 60 points per season), we'll at least do better in the shock home results (WBA, Villa) and we'll take points off the City, United, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal, although how many is up for debate. That should give us something close to 70 points.
Just on this note, there is definitely an opportunity for a club (let's hope it's us) to break into the top 4 and even beyond in the next few years.  In the next 2-3 years we will see the following:

* Leadership change at United & Arsenal, not regular change because the incumbents are iconic figures with long records of service.  Potentially turbulent times at those clubs.

* The affect of regulation on the clubs.  This may focus particularly on the new superpowers that are City and Chelsea although this really is to be confirmed i.e. will UEFA force regulation and if so how strong will they be or how well will the clubs manipulate the new system.

We are actually in a position to take advantage of the above.  But we need to address the constant state of flux that we've found ourselves in over the last few years.  Rodgers also has a huge opportunity with the youngsters coming through.  Let's say in 2-3 years Rodgers has been given the time and resources to build in the appropriate way then we may be in a position to knock our competition off the top as they go through periods of uncertainty.

To paraphrase, we may knocking someone off his perch.

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #356 on: March 23, 2013, 12:22:16 pm »
What do you base this opinion on? Since Christmas our points gained has been at least on a par with pretty much everybody in the league bar Utd. Does that not suggest it's starting to 'click'? Would that happen if the players hadn't bought into it? Also those you would perhaps think most resistant to Rodgers methods, the Kenny buys such as Henderson, Downing and Enrique, have all improved and been standout performers. In fact everyone who was at the club before Rodgers arrived, except for Martin Skrtel, is arguably playing better than they did last year. When players don't buy into a Manager's methods there are usually massive warning signs (Hodgson & Villas-Boas are recent examples), have we had any of those?

With regards the £35million, that's something that is on the club and those who have since left. It wouldn't be fair to tell Rodgers he has to use a player because of his pricetag, that's what happened at Chelsea with Torres and Shevchenko and we know how that went.

I don't think we should confuse being punished repeatedly for the same weaknesses as being all over the shop. Sometimes an attack-orientated team seems more 'all over the shop' because at the end of the day conceding goals makes it look like that. The way we are taught to treasure a clean sheet, that a 1-0 victory is better than a 3-2, is something of a fallacy, and probably stems from the old division of duties. It's frustrating conceding goals, but there's little to make me think we'll have to sacrifice the attacking progress we've made in order to address our weaknesses. That should set us up well for next year.

I also think we are a bit "all over the shop".

Yes, our results have improved since Christmas and we have accumulated points - but with what philosophy, formation and personnel?

The aim to retain the ball, pass teams to death and subject them to "Death by Football" is receeding with every match. We were actually trying to keep hold of the ball more at the beginning of the season. Our percentage of possession has been decreasing the longer the season has continued. Our recent goals are becoming increasingly direct.

The formation has gone from 1433 to 14231 to 1424. We are OK when we have everyone in the "first team" in contention but a couple of injuries in midfield and suddenly the players seem unsure of what role they are meant to be fulfilling.

There are defiite signs of progress and we are lucky that our players have been in superb form (Suarez) and that our signings have worked out well (Coutinho / Sturridge) but this was likely to have been the case whichever formation and philosophy we had employed.

With a new CB, DM and striker I think it's likely that at at least half of next season will also be "transitional" if we are still aiming to implement a high-line, possession-based, sterile domination 1433 because, with an eye on results, we appear to have postponed that for the present. Although, as you rightly say, an attacking team can sometimes look more awry conceeding goals, the fact is that we still havent sorted out basic weaknesses such as dealing with setpieces, high balls, tension through the midfield or even being pressed hard. That isn't going to change over Summer and we may have to ride our luck slightly in the early part of next season.

So far, Chelsea have gotten off to a bad start, Arsenal half-imploded, none of City's signings worked out, Spurs have taken time to adapt under Villas-Boas but many of those problems will be addressed over the transfer window and we could find it significantly harder to get a top 4 slot as compared to this season.

We are progressing but our improvement is unlikely to be linear rather than characterised by peaks and troughs in a generally upwards direction.
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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #357 on: March 23, 2013, 02:04:45 pm »
I also think we are a bit "all over the shop".

Yes, our results have improved since Christmas and we have accumulated points - but with what philosophy, formation and personnel?

The aim to retain the ball, pass teams to death and subject them to "Death by Football" is receeding with every match. We were actually trying to keep hold of the ball more at the beginning of the season. Our percentage of possession has been decreasing the longer the season has continued. Our recent goals are becoming increasingly direct.

The formation has gone from 1433 to 14231 to 1424. We are OK when we have everyone in the "first team" in contention but a couple of injuries in midfield and suddenly the players seem unsure of what role they are meant to be fulfilling.

There are defiite signs of progress and we are lucky that our players have been in superb form (Suarez) and that our signings have worked out well (Coutinho / Sturridge) but this was likely to have been the case whichever formation and philosophy we had employed.

With a new CB, DM and striker I think it's likely that at at least half of next season will also be "transitional" if we are still aiming to implement a high-line, possession-based, sterile domination 1433 because, with an eye on results, we appear to have postponed that for the present. Although, as you rightly say, an attacking team can sometimes look more awry conceeding goals, the fact is that we still havent sorted out basic weaknesses such as dealing with setpieces, high balls, tension through the midfield or even being pressed hard. That isn't going to change over Summer and we may have to ride our luck slightly in the early part of next season.

So far, Chelsea have gotten off to a bad start, Arsenal half-imploded, none of City's signings worked out, Spurs have taken time to adapt under Villas-Boas but many of those problems will be addressed over the transfer window and we could find it significantly harder to get a top 4 slot as compared to this season.

We are progressing but our improvement is unlikely to be linear rather than characterised by peaks and troughs in a generally upwards direction.
Isn't Rodgers allowed to be pragmatic though? What gives you cause for concern in deviating from the original spec, gives me encouragement because the manager is adaptable.

You say we're lucky Suarrez is in form & our signings have done well, I say the manager made the decisions to get them in the team and get the best from them. I also think the Southampton game shows our signings weren't guaranteed to work whatever the formation and philosphy. In fact Coutinho, as a slight Brazilian 'flair' player, is probably your achetypal 'struggle to adapt' player.

PhaseofPlay is fairly confident some of these things will be improved preseason, and signings will help, but sure making some of the same mistakes is cause for concern. I would hope it is for Rodgers too. I think we're still making progress beside that though, so maybe at this stage in the season we have to just let things play out rather than risking our overall improvement. Kind of a 'whilst we're makig any kind of progress' we just have to take the rough with the smooth?

I know what you mean about the other teams, but then Chelsea will be doing the manager swap all over again in the summer. Spurs you'd think will be tough. City may well be after a new manager, but then their finances mean we're a good few years from dislodging them anyway. There's nothing that suggests Arsenal have a better chance to strengthen over the summer than we do unless they knock Spurs out of the top 4, as I just don't believe all their posturing over a big transfer budget. There's always the worry of the rich getting richer, but as long as we get better every season eventually we'll get there. With our wage bill now being brought in line and a longterm strategy at the club, I would hope that once we're there we'll be tough to get rid of. I'm optimistic, and consciously chose to be so this year, but I'm not an idiot- I couldn't trick myself into thinking there was solid progress if I didn't think it was there.

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #358 on: March 23, 2013, 02:34:41 pm »
Just on this note, there is definitely an opportunity for a club (let's hope it's us) to break into the top 4 and even beyond in the next few years.  In the next 2-3 years we will see the following:

* Leadership change at United & Arsenal, not regular change because the incumbents are iconic figures with long records of service.  Potentially turbulent times at those clubs.

* The affect of regulation on the clubs.  This may focus particularly on the new superpowers that are City and Chelsea although this really is to be confirmed i.e. will UEFA force regulation and if so how strong will they be or how well will the clubs manipulate the new system.

We are actually in a position to take advantage of the above.  But we need to address the constant state of flux that we've found ourselves in over the last few years.  Rodgers also has a huge opportunity with the youngsters coming through.  Let's say in 2-3 years Rodgers has been given the time and resources to build in the appropriate way then we may be in a position to knock our competition off the top as they go through periods of uncertainty.

To paraphrase, we may knocking someone off his perch.

Really good post that mate.

The key for me is that we have to be pro-active and actually go out and make it happen and not wait for it to fall in our lap.
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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Southampton Round Table
« Reply #359 on: March 24, 2013, 12:56:56 am »
Each to their own. If I was miraculously parachuted into that Liverpool team at the end of the season as the new manager, I would be quite happy with the foundations laid out by Rodgers, and Kenny before him. The system needs minor tweaks, a small number of additions, and to go hell for leather next season trying to pass teams into submission and releasing Suarez and Sturridge, Coutinho and whoever else on unsuspecting teams below us. One thing I would change is the need for caution against the big teams - I would reserve that for the teams that have caused us trouble this season. For the Uniteds etc., for me, it's better to go and give them a black eye, regardless of the result, and make sure they go away dreading the next game against us. That's how you instill fear into teams - not by necessarily beating them, but by running them into the ground so much that they wouldn't want to play you in a month of Sundays if they could help it.
I still find our decision to hire someone so inexperienced extraordinary. I'm hoping to make an omelette we're breaking some eggs :)
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