Topic: Please read - thanks

[MassDriver]

I don't quite know where to start on this thread - suffice to say I'm certainly not calling for Rodgers to be sacked however I certainly am beginning to question if he is the right man for the job.  the frustration is that we're in this position in the first place.  We all know chopping and changing managers every season or so is not the right thing to do, stability is vital for long term sustainable success, particularly when there isn't billions of dosh to throw at the project.  As I question Rodgers the mistakes of the recent past become highlighted and increasingly frustrating but I know the only way is forwards.  Where do we draw the line though, in terms of Brendan? How long does he get, how bad to the results have to become?  We can all suffer poor results in the knowledge that it's part of the bigger picture and a brighter future but I'm not sure they currently are.  FSG are gambling big that FFP allows us to compete in the not too-distant future but it may not work.

By giving him a couple of seasons at least, to see whether he can shape the team the way he wants to, with players mostly purchased by him?

Lets face it, we are not going to get relegated, snowballs chance in hell of that happening. What is the worse that can happen if we give Rodgers more time? We will end up midtable/lower midtable at worst, not something that will damage us in the long run. Yeah, we will be a season or two behind where we'd like to be but at the end of the day it could be corrected.

Lets look at the potential payoffs of Rodgers succeeding here, given the time to do so.

A team with a clear idea and philosophy
Youth players coming through
No great need to waste away millions on expensive purchases who may or may not come good
A blueprint/template for future managers to work with and the basis for the long term 'vision' of the club
A team that is extremely comfortable playing technical and passing football from the youngsters to the older ones
And many more...

While sacking him would be a debacle because

It will send out the idea that managers will not be given time to do what they want to do.
Top players would reconsider moving to LFC , a club with a  revolving door policy(lets not mention the likes of Chelsea coz they have resources we can only dream of)
Every time a new manager is appointed, the 'philosphy' basically changes and its starting from scratch again
The financial penalties in the form of compensation which would be incurred, money that could be utilised to strengthen the side.


We just cannot keep sacking managers for the fun of it. Its time we backed someone and gave that person a realistic time period to implement his ideas and also the resources needed to do it. We can either do that or keep sacking managers and become a circus like Chelsea(without the money and the superstars).

Yes, persisting with him does not guarantee success but it sure is a much lesser gamble than firing him and appointing yet another manager with his own ideas and philosophies and sit and hope that it all works out.

[Beav]

This One Made Me Chuckle.

Say what you want about them, whether it's a good plan, but they have one.

Edit: agree wholeheartedly with MassDriver, I'm not totally sure where this idea that if we slip into mid table, we will be stuck there forever has come from. Yes, teams improve and get stronger, but they also have bad spells and fall back.

Time is the one thing we have got, take Spurs for example, languishing in mid table, rose up a bit, then fell back to mid table for a few seasons, then had a good few seasons, they aren't going to suddenly become unshiftable forever. Same with Arsenal. Just because we have a slump in our fortunes doesn't mean we will never ever get back up there because of that.

Good players, good tactics, good youth players, investment and patience and we will climb back up there, it's ridiculous to believe that we will get permanently stuck in mid table.

And this isn't "settling for mediocrity", whatever that means, I don't think anyone settles for it. We always want to do better, it just takes time.

[Bulldog Drummond]

Enjoyed the OP. I think FSG took an extraordinary gamble in appointing Brendan Rodgers last summer as he is unproven and inexperienced. It is hard to imagine many other big clubs in Europe taking such a chance and I still wonder why they didn't come to the conclusion that stability is required if we're ever to move forward. I'm not so sure you can have stability without experience and there isn't much of that at the club on any level.

 In hiring Rodgers, there was a certain inevitability that if results didn't improve quickly, people who question the wisdom of the appointment. Now Brendan's here, he deserves time and it's ridiculous to judge him on the basis of an unfinished first season.

[Big T]

Lets face it, we are not going to get relegated, snowballs chance in hell of that happening. What is the worse that can happen if we give Rodgers more time? We will end up midtable/lower midtable at worst, not something that will damage us in the long run. Yeah, we will be a season or two behind where we'd like to be but at the end of the day it could be corrected.

I'm sorry MassDriver as I know you talk a lot of sense, but that mid-table shout is bad one.  Standards are dropping big time!  Only my opinion of course.

[MassDriver]

Lets face it, we are not going to get relegated, snowballs chance in hell of that happening. What is the worse that can happen if we give Rodgers more time? We will end up midtable/lower midtable at worst, not something that will damage us in the long run. Yeah, we will be a season or two behind where we'd like to be but at the end of the day it could be corrected.

I'm sorry MassDriver as I know you talk a lot of sense, but that mid-table shout is bad one.  Standards are dropping big time!  Only my opinion of course.

My point is that the risk of finishing midtable is outweighed by the potential gains to be had in the long term. In football(and elsewhere for that matter) no decision is fail safe. There is a potential payoff and risk associated with every decision. In this case, we'd be better off sticking to Rodgers and giving him another season to put his stamp and see where we end up rather than starting from scratch again and basically hoping the the next manager would justify that decision.

We have to look at the whole thing in a holistic manner rather than getting rid of yet another manager just because we are presently not where we want to be.

[fowlermagic]

It was eye opening when we sacked Hodgson within months, it was mind numbing when Rafa got the hoof, somewhat brainless when Kenny got the heave ho and now in the middle of the first season some are ?? Brendan. Love to see who they got ln mind for the next manager they want in the chair that sits on top of a trapdoor at Anfield.

[Big T]

My point is that the risk of finishing midtable is outweighed by the potential gains to be had in the long term. In football(and elsewhere for that matter) no decision is fail safe. There is a potential payoff and risk associated with every decision. In this case, we'd be better off sticking to Rodgers and giving him another season to put his stamp and see where we end up rather than starting from scratch again and basically hoping the the next manager would justify that decision.

We have to look at the whole thing in a holistic manner rather than getting rid of yet another manager just because we are presently not where we want to be.

I understand the need for stability along with a holistic approach both on and off the pitch, but my issue is, Rodgers performed best at a club that works within a very strict structure.  Huw Jenkins deserves all the credit by way, but that's another story at Liverpool we don't have such a structure in place.  Holistic manner, we haven't got one, as far as I can tell (I know you weren't saying we did, but just trying to enhance my point).  As a club we have gone about it the opposite way, big a young coach in with very limited experience and hope he can provide a suitable structure.  I'm not sure it works like this, mate were asking him to do close to an impossible job with very, very little experience.    The club needs significant re-structuring/building on the pitch and off it.  So lets employ a young coach who has no experience of creating such a structure - mental!!

Rodgers is a great talker always keen to give expansive answers, which is great for the press and I guess that's why he hasn't been turned on unlike Kenny, Rafa and Wenger .  I bet he comes across fantastic in an interview situation too.  As it stands, I'm not convinced by him as a manager with the capacity to re-build our great club - too early for him if you want my opinion.

It'll all end in tears, again just my opinion.

[steveeastend]

They have laid down the recruitment criteria though, we seem to be going down the route Spurs took under Comolli where we are buying players with future sell on potential instead of the players we actually need to compete in the here and now.

I think it´s still the million dollar question for our near future. Another one would be if it´s REALLY necessary to sign experienced players at the moment as it does seem to be working quite good when going for young top gems like Sturridge or Coutinho.

We will have to be clever and identify those just as we did with Coutinho. Heu Ming Son, this winger from HSV or Marco Arnautovic from Bremen would cost half the price of Downing and bring probably twice the quality. We just have to be quicker and more convicing than the years before, with Sturridge and Coutinho it worked already..

[kcbworth]

They have laid down the recruitment criteria though, we seem to be going down the route Spurs took under Comolli where we are buying players with future sell on potential instead of the players we actually need to compete in the here and now.

Not sure why you need that bit in... haven't seen anything to indicate that's likely to be true

[Draex]

Slightly skewed take on it is it?

I mean have they showed ANY evidence of wanting to sell of players for a profit/sell on potential? (Other than Torres who I think we can all agree is another matter altogether).

You've taken their desire to sign young players (true) and added in your own twist of wanting sell on potential. You could of added a twist of wanting to bring through a whole bunch of youngsters together to build a generation of winning and they could all be here for a decade (like United did) but that wouldn't suit would it?!

Come on Craig, you should know by now Al has a huge agenda when it comes to FSG.. He deliberately skipped the question about the £45mil net spend Rodgers has had in 2 windows, as it completely negates his opinion dressed as fact!

As far as I can see the intention is to be building a young team with a combination of youth from our ranks suplimented with some worldclass signings in key positions.. We will get experience in the summer, to knit the group together more and provide that much needed mental stability... Does anyone think Sneijder was the answer to fixing our mental frailties? I most certainly don't - he would of been another Joe Cole.

How someone can state FSG want to buy cheap and young and then sell later on is beyond me.. Name a single player we've done that with?

[steveeastend]

Not sure why you need that bit in... haven't seen anything to indicate that's likely to be true

It could be anything though. Nobody knows anything on their policy and I think with a big club like this it shouldn´t stay in the dark other they have something to hide.

[ScottScott]

Is there a reason this thread has stopped being posted in after a 5-0 win?

[B0151?]

It could be anything though. Nobody knows anything on their policy and I think with a big club like this it shouldn´t stay in the dark other they have something to hide.

are we really that confident that we COULD sell players like sturridge, borini, allen and henderson at a profit?

all of these players cost 10mil+, they'll have to develop pretty fucking well to make a profit enough for it to be worthwhile, if they were really trying to do that sell on fee shite they're pretty shit at it arent they. there hasn't been one player we've bought that would actually suggest that is the route FSG are taking

what we're doing is actually what man utd have been doing for years - no i'm not saying that it will be as successful, but its pretty similar to their transfer strategy imo

[steveeastend]

are we really that confident that we COULD sell players like sturridge, borini, allen and henderson at a profit?

all of these players cost 10mil+, they'll have to develop pretty fucking well to make a profit enough for it to be worthwhile, if they were really trying to do that sell on fee shite they're pretty shit at it arent they. there hasn't been one player we've bought that would actually suggest that is the route FSG are taking

what we're doing is actually what man utd have been doing for years - no i'm not saying that it will be as successful, but its pretty similar to their transfer strategy imo

Who knows, it could be the case just as them going for some hire and fire policy.

What we will have to do though is sign more quality for the money compared to last season as I don´t think we can afford wasting money anymore. We already kind of started this with Coutinho and Sturridge so I am hoping for the best for the upcoming summer.

As I said, there are some nuggets out there for half of the money we spent on Downing who would offer twice the quality. It´s all about getting as much top quality as possible in the squad in order to benefit from our possession play and creating chances.

The question will be wether our structure is good enough to be quicker and smarter in transfers than the rest.

[Zappa]

Shanks - Paisley -Fagan - Moran - Busby - even SAF wouldn't get a job today.

Theory is good - but it's only someone's opinion - Coaching manuals are pure theory and thus opinion.

Theory places no value on emotions - and is hugely wrong.

The reasonable man fits himself into the perceived "best practice - current wisdom". It follows that all progress is reliant on the mould-breaker, the Unreasonable man.

If certain people had of had their way, we would have had Steve Morgan - We could have been Wolves....

If bleeding hearts hadn't opposed Sinatra ( I know) we could have been filthy rich Manc II - but that's not our way, and never has been...

We have never had a team full of world famous "super-stars" We had TEAMS - the whole being much better than the sum of the individual parts.

If I could be granted one wish it would be to shut up he numbnuts players who gob off to the press after every win about how wonderful we've suddenly become... only to crash next game. And the polar fans (sorry to REAL sufferers)

Shanks taught me - do your talking ON the pitch.

Real success is built, not just bought.

and if you can't support when we draw or win , then piss off when we win.

You can dissect and analyze the far side of a gnats fart; but as an Auld arse of the first water I'll tell you - get behind your team - and your manager. Success needs patience - and patience needs however long it takes to deliver

[ACLE]

Excellent OP, POP. Sorry but I've only just come across this thread.

Do we recall (of course we do) BR's 3 envelopes at the start of the season (Being Liverpool) and those 'names' that he had supposedly already selected that would let the team down. I felt that the episode didn't come across as a great management tactic but who were his three names? and will he divulge them to those players if indeed there were actually ANY names in those 3 envelopes.

I don't suppose that Joe Allen would have been one of those three but unfortunately that's the way the season has panned out for the lad. I'm confident that Joe Allen will come good but BR himself should consider HIMSELF as being one of those 3 names but he has to make sure he's not one of the 3 next year.