Topic: Plans to Introduce a Plastic Bottle Deposit Scheme

[12C]

Not only does it create an incentive for people to recycle their empties, but it also creates an incentive for others to pick up after the recalcitrant litterers.

We were in Vancouver last autumn and kept seeing people walking around with large plastic sacks full of cans and plastic drinks bottles. Some of these were collected from local stores, presumably because they couldn't be bothered to take them to the cash back centres. These sacks were bigger than some of the people carrying them. We saw people actually rooting through street bins in order to collect this stuff. When we asked about it we were told it was usually homeless people (of which sadly, Vancouver has far too many) who were recycling for cash, but not exclusively.

Leaving aside the ethics of  homeless people having to rummage through bins, people were making some cash by providing a service of sorts for shops, and the plastic was being recycled. We didn't see any bottles littering the floor anywhere. As far as we could see most people walking around were not bothered about saving their bottles for a few cents and were putting them in the bins, but the guys who were collecting them were cashing in hundreds bottles.

[rob1966]

Presumably because once you open the can you have to consume it within a short period of time as it loses its fizz. I can't see there being a market for even a 1L can unless carbonation technology has some major breakthrough in which it retains the fizz/doesn't go flat for days on end. It would also require some type of resealable can to prevent spillage. I honestly wonder if glass bottles would make a return if some sort of tax/lower Pfand were to be implemented on plastic bottles

They could add an aluminium screw cap, I'm not sure how long coke lasts in a 2ltr bottle, but I assume only heavy drinkers of the stuff or people having parties, get the 2ltr ones anyway.

Can't see bottles making a big return due to the weight. I sometimes run new bottles from Quinn glass to companies like Britvic and a full trailer of empty bottles is very heavy and also you are at more risk of breaking them - I hate doing empty bottle runs. When I run beer, you carry the same weight as soft drinks in plastic bottles, fully loaded the truck weights just under 40,000kg, but you carry far less actual product than you can in the 2ltr plastic bottles, due to the difference in the weight of the container. A trailer full of empty cans feels like there is nothing there when you have one of them on the back.

We were in Vancouver last autumn and kept seeing people walking around with large plastic sacks full of cans and plastic drinks bottles. Some of these were collected from local stores, presumably because they couldn't be bothered to take them to the cash back centres. These sacks were bigger than some of the people carrying them. We saw people actually rooting through street bins in order to collect this stuff. When we asked about it we were told it was usually homeless people (of which sadly, Vancouver has far too many) who were recycling for cash, but not exclusively.

Leaving aside the ethics of  homeless people having to rummage through bins, people were making some cash by providing a service of sorts for shops, and the plastic was being recycled. We didn't see any bottles littering the floor anywhere. As far as we could see most people walking around were not bothered about saving their bottles for a few cents and were putting them in the bins, but the guys who were collecting them were cashing in hundreds bottles.

I'll have my kids doing that, saves me from paying out pocket money 

[clinical]

We were in Vancouver last autumn and kept seeing people walking around with large plastic sacks full of cans and plastic drinks bottles. Some of these were collected from local stores, presumably because they couldn't be bothered to take them to the cash back centres. These sacks were bigger than some of the people carrying them. We saw people actually rooting through street bins in order to collect this stuff. When we asked about it we were told it was usually homeless people (of which sadly, Vancouver has far too many) who were recycling for cash, but not exclusively.

Leaving aside the ethics of  homeless people having to rummage through bins, people were making some cash by providing a service of sorts for shops, and the plastic was being recycled. We didn't see any bottles littering the floor anywhere. As far as we could see most people walking around were not bothered about saving their bottles for a few cents and were putting them in the bins, but the guys who were collecting them were cashing in hundreds bottles.

I'm a regular visitor to Vancouver as have friends who live there. Wonderful city on the whole. They all do it out of habit and think it's great. In fact sometimes if the homeless are there when they finish the drink they simply give the bottles to them to recycle and obviously they get to keep the money.

[24/7]

Massive problem, but like Barry says below your post, the drinks companies need to take responsibility. EG Coke - they use aluminium cans for the 330ml drinks, why can't they and the can manufacturers, come up with a 1 or 2 ltr can to replace the big plastic bottles? Sometimes I'll pick up a trailer from Coke with 30,000 kg of soft drinks and it will all be 2ltr plastic bottles.

My kids have a plastic bottle each that I bought from Asda, fill it with water from the tap and re-use it until its knackered. I've got a plastic water bottle on my desk that I re-use for water from the cooler.

Don't mention Coke to me - one of the biggest greenwashing corporations out there. They think they're part of the solution - they're causing much of the problem - I don't buy their 'green' credentials one bit. That said, there's still the opportunity to change THEIR mindsets - which is what we're working on

[rob1966]

Don't mention Coke to me - one of the biggest greenwashing corporations out there. They think they're part of the solution - they're causing much of the problem - I don't buy their 'green' credentials one bit. That said, there's still the opportunity to change THEIR mindsets - which is what we're working on

My uncle used to be on the main board of directors of Coke in the States, sadly he retired years ago and now suffers from alzheimers, shame as I would have had an in there to bring things up with him.

Great that pressure is being applied, they need to find alternative packaging, that contains as much recyclable material as possible, we cannot go on pollution the earth and killing the seas.

[24/7]

My uncle used to be on the main board of directors of Coke in the States, sadly he retired years ago and now suffers from alzheimers, shame as I would have had an in there to bring things up with him.

Great that pressure is being applied, they need to find alternative packaging, that contains as much recyclable material as possible, we cannot go on pollution the earth and killing the seas.

One of the biggest challenges we face is not so much the bottles but the caps. There are some drinks out there that have integrated, retainable caps, using a valve principle (Lucozade Sport, for example). So, just in the same way that cans have a retained opening mechanism, plastic bottles need them too - they exist but are not industry-wide. If only there was appetite to legislate for it........

Birds and fish eat the caps, or literally feed them to their young. So many deaths that way. Autopsies on marine life and birds have revealed stomach contents including said caps, as well as other plastic items.

You can google plenty of articles (I won't post Daily Mail links here) over the last few years, one of which claims that just about every sea bird out there is eating plastic.........

The albatross is even facing extinction, at least partially due to this phenomenon.

http://ocean.si.edu/slideshow/laysan-albatrosses%E2%80%99-plastic-problem *

* - warning, some of the pictures at the bottom of the page may upset some people.

[SP]

Treading on a bottle cap in bare feet is only marginally less painful than Lego.

[24/7]

Treading on a bottle cap in bare feet is only marginally less painful than Lego.

Didn't someone once get a custom title when referring to stepping on lego?!

[reniformis]

Will be interesting to see how this works in practice. I see it's aimed at 'single use' plastic/glass/cans, hopefully that means they're aiming purely at the likes of water bottles and coke/beer cans you see littering the country rather than other single use stuff that never leaves the house until it goes in the recycling bin. I'm definitely in favour but it isn't true that there's no overall cost to the consumer, there will be to those of us into re-purposing ie us mingebags. I'm forever using old plastic drinks bottles in the shed or garden to mix and store all sorts of shit like plant food, weedkiller, windscreen wash, diluted bleach/vinegar etc. Small fry, like, but if they move on to the dozens of Uncle Bens and Pataks glass jars I use to keep me nails and screws in I'll be annoyed #backoffbrussels etc 

[Max_powers]

They have this is Canada where I live. I think generally it's a good idea that presents few minor issues as well.

Good

1. More cleanliness and greater incentive to recycle. In general, I find that Canadian cities are quite clean as any bottles thrown as litter is picked up the homeless and recycled. I have seen London streets full of beer cans after a night of partying.

2. Provides a good fun way for kids in school or clubs to fundraise through bottle drives.  In high-school, we did this thing called bottle drives where we go door to door asking people for bottles. Then we recycled them to get money back. People are generally very open to giving away their bottles.
 
Bad

1. This will only work partially as some people won't find the effort to recycle and make a trip to bottle depot worth the money. Commercial and Industrial buildings will have to provide separate bins for only cans and bottles. In Canada, you only get about 5 cents per can. This means your prices won't go up much but there is less incentive.

2. I know some businesses complain about the homeless folks breaking into their bins to pick up bottles and cans just to leave behind a mess of garbage on the ground. Not a major issue but I have seen some people complain.

[reniformis]

This will only work partially as some people won't find the effort to recycle and make a trip to bottle depot worth the money.

It depends how it's done, the logistics and all that. If you get a card that you stick in the machine whilst returning your bottles and it adds to your credit like a gift/loyalty card, or you can use your phone banking app/paypal/apple pay etc, then great. If it just prints a voucher you can use in a shop then it's shite because no-one wants to be the arsehole at the head of the checkout queue scanning in 20 vouchers to get a couple of quid off the bill.

The other question is whether different sized bottles would have different deposits. If it's 20p for both a 500ml and a 2l coke bottle, then the overall price could lead to the 2l bottle being relatively underpriced and we're into food waste or diabetes territory.

[Max_powers]

It depends how it's done, the logistics and all that. If you get a card that you stick in the machine whilst returning your bottles and it adds to your credit like a gift/loyalty card, or you can use your phone banking app/paypal/apple pay etc, then great. If it just prints a voucher you can use in a shop then it's shite because no-one wants to be the arsehole at the head of the checkout queue scanning in 20 vouchers to get a couple of quid off the bill.

The other question is whether different sized bottles would have different deposits. If it's 20p for both a 500ml and a 2l coke bottle, then the overall price could lead to the 2l bottle being relatively underpriced and we're into food waste or diabetes territory.

Over here the pricing is based on the size and material used to make the bottles and cans.

Your standard beer or soda cans are 5 cents whereas the bigger bottles are like 10 cents and large alcohol glass bottles are close to 50 cents to a dollar.

To deposit the bottles people have to take them to bottle depot, where they have to sort the containers by the type based on material and size. Then you give them to the cashier who gives you money.

It's not the most convenient thing so usually people store their cans and bottles for a while until they have enough to get a decent sum of money back. Our household normally gets around $10 worth of refunds from 3-4 months worth of bottles and cans. 

[24/7]

It depends how it's done, the logistics and all that. If you get a card that you stick in the machine whilst returning your bottles and it adds to your credit like a gift/loyalty card, or you can use your phone banking app/paypal/apple pay etc, then great. If it just prints a voucher you can use in a shop then it's shite because no-one wants to be the arsehole at the head of the checkout queue scanning in 20 vouchers to get a couple of quid off the bill.

The other question is whether different sized bottles would have different deposits. If it's 20p for both a 500ml and a 2l coke bottle, then the overall price could lead to the 2l bottle being relatively underpriced and we're into food waste or diabetes territory.

Usually just one voucher oer session - you tell the machine when you're done and it prints off a voucher equal to the total - not one voucher per can.......unless you tell it to do that......

But I like the other ideas - didn't occur to me. Fucking millennials, eh?

[redbyrdz]

The Canadian example is intersting in that it seems the deposit has to be high enough to make it work. In Germany it's 25 cent, which adds up quickly and is usually a nice bit off your shop.

The point about commercial businesses needing extra space - I don't know, they have space to store the full bottles, so they should be able to store the empties too - they take up the same space? But then I remembered that in Germany many drinks come in glass bottles, in sturdy cases, and are easily stackable. Also these bottles and cases have always carried a deposit, so people are used to returning and storing them. It's a bit different with flimsy plastic bottles and cans.

[24/7]

It's a bit different with flimsy plastic bottles and cans.

I seem to remember the machines crushing them after the bar code is read. That'll save some space......

[rafathegaffa83]

The point about commercial businesses needing extra space - I don't know, they have space to store the full bottles, so they should be able to store the empties too - they take up the same space? But then I remembered that in Germany many drinks come in glass bottles, in sturdy cases, and are easily stackable. Also these bottles and cases have always carried a deposit, so people are used to returning and storing them. It's a bit different with flimsy plastic bottles and cans.

I recall seeing that in Germany too. Nice big reuseable plastic crates that could hold beer bottles, cans, water bottles. In Canada, multipacks of beer, fruit juice or Coke are usually sold in cardboard boxes that can be easily flatpacked. You don't see a lot of the plastic rings except for mini cans that come in packs of six.

 I'd actually like to see the six pack rings banned unless the product is biodegradable (and specified as such). I'd also like to see the plastic that covers the cardboard base for some 24 packs of Coke or water bottles banned (unless it was biodegradable) in favour of a crate system. Multipacks could be sold in the open crates like in Germany. Perhaps if you didn't want to reuse the crate or had too many it could be returned to a retailer who would sent it back to be cleaned/reused again in return for a credit to be applied to a points card. I'd also be in favour of a points card to record the bottle/can return credit that way less paper and ink would be consumed.

[reniformis]

Usually just one voucher oer session - you tell the machine when you're done and it prints off a voucher equal to the total - not one voucher per can.......unless you tell it to do that......

But I like the other ideas - didn't occur to me. Fucking millennials, eh?

Yeah, I assumed it would be one voucher per session I think it would be straightforward for families who accumulate a lot of waste to just cash in every time they go shopping, as a singleton who'd only get a quid a week back I probably wouldn't bother until I had a fiver's worth if it was a voucher system. That means storing them at home. A points card system and I could get rid of them as I go and build up the credit until it was worth swiping. Just thinking of the people behind me at the till, I'm good like that

On a side note, there was a comment earlier about unnecessary plastic bags in a lego set. The reason they do this is to make the picking/packaging process more efficient. If a set needs 10 red bricks it's easier if there's a box full of bags with 10 red bricks in each to pick from than a box full of loose bricks. Prices would go up even if only by a small amount which is what the free market lives and dies by.

[redbyrdz]

I recall seeing that in Germany too. Nice big reuseable plastic crates that could hold beer bottles, cans, water bottles. In Canada, multipacks of beer, fruit juice or Coke are usually sold in cardboard boxes that can be easily flatpacked. You don't see a lot of the plastic rings except for mini cans that come in packs of six.

 I'd actually like to see the six pack rings banned unless the product is biodegradable (and specified as such). I'd also like to see the plastic that covers the cardboard base for some 24 packs of Coke or water bottles banned (unless it was biodegradable) in favour of a crate system. Multipacks could be sold in the open crates like in Germany. Perhaps if you didn't want to reuse the crate or had too many it could be returned to a retailer who would sent it back to be cleaned/reused again in return for a credit to be applied to a points card. I'd also be in favour of a points card to record the bottle/can return credit that way less paper and ink would be consumed.

The crates have a deposit on them as well as the bottles. They get washed and used again. One-way bottles are crushed and the plastic recycled.

The pic is normal btw, the drinks section of a supermarket, or they have specialist shops that only sell drinks.

[rafathegaffa83]

The crates have a deposit on them as well as the bottles. They get washed and used again.

Ah didn't know that thanks Glad to hear. I remember seeing similar in Germany. I know the crates are apparently used as a popular method for students to store books and other materials. The water bottles being wrapped in plastic near the Erdinger crates is an idea that needs to be binned though

[redbyrdz]

Ah didn't know that thanks Glad to hear. I remember seeing similar in Germany. I know the crates are apparently used as a popular method for students to store books and other materials. The water bottles being wrapped in plastic near the Erdinger crates is an idea that needs to be binned though

Nah, you can't store books in them, they have plastic bits sticking out inside to keep the bottles separated - a bit like an egg carton. You can flip them over and sit on them during parties though.

Yeah, the bottles near the front of the pic are one-way bottles, not reusable ones like the ones in the crates. They are sold sold in 4 or 6 packs usually. Think you can see the same in the UK (or only in Lidl/Aldi?). Think its better when its cardboard, like with Lucozade bottles..

[Jake]

I'm all for anything that increases recycling, so it's about time this scheme was introducted.

I like the idea of having it on a swipecard too, like a prepaid visa. The gov't may not supply the cards but a bank could and take 5% of each transaction onto the card or something.

[rafathegaffa83]

I like the idea of having it on a swipecard too, like a prepaid visa. The gov't may not supply the cards but a bank could and take 5% of each transaction onto the card or something.

If the supermarkets are to host the machines, surely they could transfer the credit to their points cards. Would be one less card for people needing to carry.

[thejbs]

If the supermarkets are to host the machines, surely they could transfer the credit to their points cards. Would be one less card for people needing to carry.

Was thinking the same.  It also cuts down on paper waste from printing vouchers. 

I'd also like to see Tesco do away with sticker printers for fruit and veg that is priced per item, not weight.  So much wastage there.

[lamad]

People keep quoting Germany etc. I lived/worked in Berlin for a month in 2002 and was shocked how far ahead of us they were on recycling at work, I can remember a variety of bins at the back of the office. Now, I don't remember the collection machines being in the shops, so I would like to know, did they replace the bin system with the deposit system, or was that how they started? The UK already recycles 8.5 billion cans, so that is a massive change that is being required from millions of householders.

Germany has various bins (paper, recycable materials etc.) in private households and offices as well as in the public space (containers for glass). Plus we have the "Pfand" (deposit) system on many bottles for beverages and also some yoghurt glasses. The current deposit system started in 2003 (with some changes made in 2006).

So you might buy five bottles/cans and four of them have the sign that shows you can return them to the shops - and for those you will pay 8 to 25 ct deposit each (depends on the type of reusable/non reusable materials, mostly it's 25 ct) which you will be credited back when you return them - and the fifth one will not have the sign (exempt ones for example are mostly fruit juice and milk, also wine bottles). And you won't pay any "Pfand" on that and you can simply chuck it in the recycle bin at home. You can of course chuck the other four in there as well. But then you'd throw away money.

So we use both systems: recycling bins at home and a return recycle system in shops.