Topic: Negativity needs to stop....

[evie]

First of all.....I come in peace 

It's not that you can't discuss players, their price tags and whether they would be good enough for Liverpool based on what you've seen before. I'm cautious as well but still a bit excited to see what Henderson can bring to the team. But discussing, in my opinion, is not going on and on how shit a player is and how he probably won't do well for Liverpool based on a U21s tournament. Internetforums is all about discussion but why don't have proper arguments?

I'm not critizising people who are included in the discussions and are cautious about Henderson, doubting whether he would be good enough. I just find it difficult to understand how people for some mysterious reason can see into the future how bad he will do for us based on the fact that "he's shit" or "he was shit for the U21s". The fact he apparently didn't do well for the U21s doesn't mean he won't do well for Liverpool. I'm not saying everyone needs to get behind him, but at least wait and tell the world "how shit he is" until he's kicked a ball for Liverpool. How can you possibly know he will do badly? Of course I can't say for sure he will be a success, but I'd rather be cautiously optimistic.

[Gus 1855]

Spot on.

There isn't anything wrong in discussing things. Am I not happy with the new owners and the mananger? Of course I am.

But, that doesn't mean I can't look at signings and discuss them.

Is it ideal to spend 16m on a CM when that money could have gone towards a left sided player? Is getting 2 CMs in one window and selling one of our better players from last season good business? Will Carroll be a success?

See great managers make mistakes, I have seen far too many not to be a little concerned with our strategy.

Also, after they put on the red shirt, I will hope and pray that Kenny was right all along and my fears were unfounded.

But for now, with no football, of course we will talk about transfers and whether the player will be a good fit. It's what we do.

Long story short, in answer to your questions......we don't know.

That being the case, let's wait and see shall we?

[horne]

OPTIMIST V PESSIMIST

kenny v hodgeson


whine on !


Anyone with less than a thousand posts can do one ....fingers in ears 

[steveeastend]

What I find most depressing about our negativity is that LFC supporters seem reluctant to give our new owners and team a chance.
Nor would they have been forced to buy the likes of Poulsem Konchesky Jovanovic and Cole to keep the squad

I really didnīt want to start the discussion again but this conclusion is so out of this world for me, I really cannot understand how you would come to this.

We were FORCED to buy Poulsen, Konchensky and Cole? Really?

Furthermore this "some"/"them" or whatever describtion you wanna find for a small minority of posters who want to discuss the direction we are heading in terms of management sounds more than strange to me.

In fact there are a quite a few, including me, who like to discuss our singnings. How is that not giving the owners or players or whatever a chance? How should I "not give them a chance"? Boo em on the pitch like it happend to Lucas? Write articles on sky?

The only one suffering from real abuse was Lucas and I cannot remember anybody defending him than a small minority on the Lucas thread who liked to talk football only. And thatīs how I see it. Talking football and a critical point of view is part of the game. Not more, not less.

[steveeastend]

First of all.....I come in peace 


I'm not critizising people who are included in the discussions and are cautious about Henderson, doubting whether he would be good enough. I just find it difficult to understand how people for some mysterious reason can see into the future how bad he will do for us based on the fact that "he's shit" or "he was shit for the U21s". The fact he apparently didn't do well for the U21s doesn't mean he won't do well for Liverpool. I'm not saying everyone needs to get behind him, but at least wait and tell the world "how shit he is" until he's kicked a ball for Liverpool. How can you possibly know he will do badly? Of course I can't say for sure he will be a success, but I'd rather be cautiously optimistic.

To me itīs only normal to be critical after all weīve been through during this last couple of years. First the money, wasnīt there, then the club fall apart and a manager, Hodgson, shipped out players and brought in new ones without any reasonable argument behind it. Cole, Poulsen, Konchensky...

Now we have new owners with a new concept, moneyball or something similar, never proved in football before, doing things very different with an obvious good intention. But as this concept is new to european football, itīs only normal that you wanna discuss it, no?

The Henderson and Carroll signings are part of a new and brave concept. But in the same way as itīs not clear yet if Henderson will be a success or not, itīs also not clear if the concept will work, no?

The way I see it, people are mostly critical on the price payed for Henderson. (and Carroll). With Carroll there is an argument wether he will fit into our pass and move. But that was AFTER watching him play, not before.

[evie]

To me itīs only normal to be critical after all weīve been through during this last couple of years. First the money, wasnīt there, then the club fall apart and a manager, Hodgson, shipped out players and brought in new ones without any reasonable argument behind it. Cole, Poulsen, Konchensky...

Now we have new owners with a new concept, moneyball or something similar, never proved in football before, doing things very different with an obvious good intention. But as this concept is new to european football, itīs only normal that you wanna discuss it, no?

The Henderson and Carroll signings are part of a new and brave concept. But in the same way as itīs not clear yet if Henderson will be a success or not, itīs also not clear if the concept will work, no?

The way I see it, people are mostly critical on the price payed for Henderson. (and Carroll). With Carroll there is an argument wether he will fit into our pass and move. But that was AFTER watching him play, not before.

I am truly sorry but

 

I have NO problems with d i s c u s s i o n s. I have said so several times. It's the w a y people discuss and the w a y people are expressing their critique.


 

[steveeastend]

I am truly sorry but

 

I have NO problems with d i s c u s s i o n s. I have said so several times. It's the w a y people discuss and the w a y people are expressing their critique.


 

Sorry, mate. I was refering mostly to the "future part".  Peace.

[the_red_pill]

I am truly sorry but

 

I have NO problems with d i s c u s s i o n s. I have said so several times. It's the w a y people discuss and the w a y people are expressing their critique.


 

100%, evie.

[Mutton Geoff]

Moaning with good reasons for doing it is Realism

Moaning just to either attract attention in here and with no good reason to moan at all is Negativity!

In my opinion

Sadly a lot of posts as usual during a transfer window are covered by the second line and not the first!

[steveeastend]

Moaning with good reasons for doing it is Realism

Moaning just to either attract attention in here and with no good reason to moan at all is Negativity!

Sorry but isnīt exactly this negativity?

Why do you assume critical posters are mostly after attention? I think the great majority on this forum love the club and want all the best for the club. The posters being critical or whatever you wanna call it on this new approach of the owners have been mostly the same who were critical on Hodgson and are posting on this forum for years. They just have a different opinion, thatīs all.

[John C]

There's some convoluted discussions going on in here and I think people have lost sight of the OP. If I'm not wrong Terry was suggesting that people, supporters, internet terrorists and other interested parties leave the valuation and selection of players to our new, robust and experienced management team and to stop being negative over a few million pounds.

innit.

[helmboy_nige]

Agree completely that people should be free to discuss transfers, strategy, stadium design, tactics, training to their hearts content.  People should also be allowed to express their concerns about a particular signing or sale.  The issue (as some have mentioned) is the expression isn't of the odd concern but of clear mistakes being made.

Take the henderson thread.  People are naturally concerned about signing a younger player who hasn't played a the very top yet and for a large sum, but the comments that were filtering through were just embarrassing.  "Henderson was poor at the U21 tournie so he's clearly crap and shouldn't be playing for LFC"... wtf?

My issue is that the transfer window still has two months to run and people are complaining that we should have lumped the money here or there... without thinking that maybe, just maybe, we have a big list of potential signings for various positions and we are working on a number.

People have no patience and it's genuinely sad.

The negativity of some on here aside, I'm loving this summer.  Kenny in charge.  Owners who give a shit and aren't afraid of spending money.  No debt.  Oh and the sun is shining today (though that may not last).  And the irony is that I've always been a pessimist about LFCs future... but I'm walking around happier than I've been about LFC for over 10 years.

[Runehammer]

I can agree the optimists are far outnumbered by the pessimists here. Yet there will always be something to piss and moan about because that'øs just what fans are inclined to do regardless of performances. Though no matter what I'm quite certain we're all glad we're talking about football matters and not administration, relegation, Texas, injunctions, etc etc

That's not necessarily true, the optimists don't have as much need to post as those who feel the need to gripe about anything.  I really hate this time of year as the vast majority of transfer related posts are utter tripe, I mean there are hundreds of posts about people who will never get anywhere near the shirt.

I am just thankful that we still have a club to talk about, tho' I fear there are still several who have no clue how close we came to ruin! 

[Shanks1965]

OPTIMIST V PESSIMIST

kenny v Hodgson


whine on !


Anyone with less than a thousand posts can do one ....fingers in ears 

Do away goals count?

[Phatz]

..Right here right now.

I'm sick of it. The amount of shit that we've been through with the previous owners and all the crap that followed afterwards.
Now we are in a situation with Kenny in charge and no debt and still some people are still not happy?
This time last year we didn't have a pot to piss in and now certain people are questioning paying out for this or that player?
Fuck me, if the vampires were still in charge, would we be taking about any possible transfer targets?

Am I right or am I talking bollocks?

I can't wait for the new season...

You are not talking testicles, Terry. Pure sense.

Optimism tempered by belief in who is in charge, and how they have been doing things, SO FAR.
The belief that we have now in place, some structure, both on and off the field.

Steps, both small and large, are being taken in the right direction.
Get behind and start smiling, not taking swipes.

[Paul JH]

Everytime a negative post gets met, the usual bog-standard response is 'Why can't I have an opinion?' or 'Don't tell me how to support the club' or the usual 'are we not allowed to have a different opinion?' It's a stock response to anyone challenging something negative. But they just completly miss the point.

The reason so many posts get jumped on on RAWK, especially ones that say 'why is the club doing this / signing him / spending that?' is becaus ethey are usually reactionary nonsense with no point other than to randomly fire off a criticism without any substantial 'argument' to back it up. And it's why they get jumped on and the vicious circle begins.

There are one or two members on here that genuinely have reservations about certain signings, but try and post them in a rational manner. With reasons for why they may think that way. But they are far outweighed by the nonsensical and irrational stamp your feet kind of posts.

I'd sooner debate a point with someone who doesn't rate a player, but doesn't let that develop into 'what is the club doing?!' than someone who doesn't rate a player but ends the post with 'What are Kenny and the club up to?!?!' like it's the end of the world and because the manager is signing someone YOU don't rate, the manager must be an idiot.
 

When people get a response for being 'negative' it's usually because their post is reactionary, factless crap. There are a lot of different opinions on RAWK, some agreeing with the nonsensical stuff, but they don't get a response because they are well thought out. I'd sooner have a genuine football discussion with someone about a player like say Downing, where they actually genuinely say why they don't rate him, than respond to the 'he's shit, and we are shit if we go for him!' kind of posts.

Also, there are way WAY too many people who simply don't get it, or refuse to even let it be a factor, where this club was 12 months ago. I guarantee a lot of the people saying Adam, Henderson, Downing etc are shite either know not much about what went on with this club 12 months ago, OR are now the ones who expect us to win the title next season. The fact we are even in for some of these players, and that we have a manager in charge who knows what he's doing, and owners willing to back him, shows how far we've come in such a short space of time.

Have a bit of patience, stop the endless whingeing and actually get behind the team and manager and see where it gets us. Radical I know.

Too many people use the signing of a player THEY don't rate and turn it into attacks on the manager and the club.

[redmark]

Exactly. It's about the quality of the posts (which includes a lack of respect for the club, staff/players and other posters on here), not the underlying opinion.

[Terry de Niro]

.

Too many people use the signing of a player THEY don't rate and turn it into attacks on the manager and the club.

Spot on mate and what I was getting at, but you have explained it much better.

[steveeastend]

Exactly. It's about the quality of the posts (which includes a lack of respect for the club, staff/players and other posters on here), not the underlying opinion.

Yes, but this is a football forum, what do people expect?

The last time I pointed out in detail WHY I think that Torres is better than Carroll I was called an idiot, for a start, but thatīs the way it is, no problem whatsover.

What I find rather disturbing recently is the constant drama coming up when somebody simply states an opinion on a player. Like not being happy with LFC possibly signing Young f.e.(which didnīt happen anyway).

How on earth should this be disrespectful or some sort of moaning? What do you guys expect in the transfer window? We could discuss the color of the new away kit but I am afraid to dissapoint the lot of you here as well.. itīs all about personal opinions here either.

No offense.

[Red Beret]

People have become so used to questioning the club and challenging the decisions being made that they can't find the 'off' button.  There's nothing wrong with legitimate debate but the war's over.  Too many people are stating their opinions as facts.  We should put our feet up, break out a couple of cans, and just relax and enjoy the summer spending. 

Instead of asking "what use is he?" we should be asking "what does KK have in mind for him?" or "how will we make use of this guy?".  We should reserve the "he's crap and wont bring anything to the team" sort of statements until after he's been proven to be a dud.

[Mutton Geoff]

Sorry but isnīt exactly this negativity?

Why do you assume critical posters are mostly after attention? I think the great majority on this forum love the club and want all the best for the club. The posters being critical or whatever you wanna call it on this new approach of the owners have been mostly the same who were critical on Hodgson and are posting on this forum for years. They just have a different opinion, thatīs all.

posters who love the club not a problem and use commonsense,  posters who jump into a thread with player z is shit with nothing to back it up with i am on about, and posters that derail every player thread with the same posts about FSG , DC,KK,i also have a problem with, constructive criticism is good agenda based witchhunts arnt.

you ok with that??

[CHOPPER]

This thread needs a formation and some accountancy to make it complete.

[wednesday25052005]

..Right here right now.

I'm sick of it. The amount of shit that we've been through with the previous owners and all the crap that followed afterwards.
Now we are in a situation with Kenny in charge and no debt and still some people are still not happy?
This time last year we didn't have a pot to piss in and now certain people are questioning paying out for this or that player?
Fuck me, if the vampires were still in charge, would we be taking about any possible transfer targets?

Am I right or am I talking bollocks?

I can't wait for the new season...

Spot on Terry

[steveeastend]

you ok with that??

No problem at all,  just love having a debate

In my experience though it happens the other way around as well. People jumping into a nice and sensible discussion on the moneyball issue and destroying the debate by accusing everybody with exaggerations of any kind for not being loyal to the club, Kenny and the whole LFC world.

[Mutton Geoff]

This thread needs a formation and some accountancy to make it complete.

Hell no

To put it an easy way some people last summer got a lot of Kudos from their negative posts in the fight against G and H, they appear to be treating the new regime in exactly the same way now though,  now it could be they enjoyed their time in the limelight, it could be they dont trust FSG ( highly understandable once bitten etc) or it could be they love to moan but that debate gets dragged into every transfer thread in the forum by these posters!

Then you have the Henderson thread an alltime low in my opinion,

 the lad got hammered by the same posters page after page before he has even kicked a ball for us, do you call that negativity or not!

[john_mac]

In my experience though it happens the other way around as well. People jumping into a nice and sensible discussion on the moneyball issue and destroying the debate by accusing everybody with exaggerations of any kind for not being loyal to the club, Kenny and the whole LFC world.

Iīd love to see Ancelotti as our manager.

[artanis]

..Right here right now.

I'm sick of it. The amount of shit that we've been through with the previous owners and all the crap that followed afterwards.
Now we are in a situation with Kenny in charge and no debt and still some people are still not happy?
This time last year we didn't have a pot to piss in and now certain people are questioning paying out for this or that player?
Fuck me, if the vampires were still in charge, would we be taking about any possible transfer targets?

Am I right or am I talking bollocks?

I can't wait for the new season...

I can't wait for the next season either. However, you may be talking bollocks a bit.
1. While am I delighted with the new owners and Kenny (like I have not been in decades) it's normal to have people doubt, criticize and question. If they didn't then we'd be a cult and not supporters.
2. Criticism is good, you have to have supporters who are too skeptical, those who are rational and those who are gullible. Perfume only smells good to you because you know what shit smells like, as a frame of reference.
3. LFC has been in the craper for too long and fans are frustrated and hungry for success. That produces impatience.

So while I personally completely agree with your optimism I must say this forum would be boring if you and I agreed with everyone else. 

[steveeastend]

Can you honestly tell me whatīs you intention with those two quotes? Me thinking that Ancelotti would be a better option than Hodgson at a time when we discussed new managers before Kenny came in?

If you would do a proper research you would see that I favoured Kenny month before any other poster in here did in order to replace Hodgson.

But thatīs exactly what I meant, exaggerate in order to destroy a debate and having an agenda against posters for having a different opinion.

Good job, mate.

[john_mac]

Can you honestly tell me whatīs you intention with those two quotes? Me thinking that Ancelotti would be a better option than Hodgson at a time when we discussed new managers before Kenny came in?

If you would do a proper research you would see that I favoured Kenny month before any other poster in here did in order to replace Hodgson.

But thatīs exactly what I meant, exaggerate in order to destroy a debate and having an agenda against posters for having a different opinion.

Good job, mate.

I think if you check the dates you were advocating Ancelloti to replace Rafa, while Rafa was fighting the owners for us.

Then today you start to talk about loyalty, now if that's an exaggeration then I'm out of order,but I'll stick with it.

[Mutton Geoff]

Can you honestly tell me whatīs you intention with those two quotes? Me thinking that Ancelotti would be a better option than Hodgson at a time when we discussed new managers before Kenny came in?

If you would do a proper research you would see that I favoured Kenny month before any other poster in here did in order to replace Hodgson.

But thatīs exactly what I meant, exaggerate in order to destroy a debate and having an agenda against posters for having a different opinion.

Good job, mate.

you overstate your case sir!

some of us not only didnt want Rafa to go but also never wanted Hodgeson at all, you will note during the world cup many wanted Kenny but were worried for his sake about him working with the snakeoil salesmen and Cecil because we care about a legend here!

[Black Bull Nova]

Its neither the optimists nor the pessimists that do my barnet in, its the 'internetists' who have something to say about everything and nothing worth saying about anything!

As a title its not going to catch on but you may have defined a group of people who are slowly taking over the world so copyright it quick (with better title). What medium do you use to post?

Hope that is deemed worthy of posting.

(please treat with irony)

[horne]

Can you honestly tell me whatīs you intention with those two quotes? Me thinking that Ancelotti would be a better option than Hodgson at a time when we discussed new managers before Kenny came in?

If you would do a proper research you would see that I favoured Kenny month before any other poster in here did in order to replace Hodgson.

But thatīs exactly what I meant, exaggerate in order to destroy a debate and having an agenda against posters for having a different opinion.

Good job, mate.

oh dear

[steveeastend]

Well, probably a lot gets some sort of lost in translation. As english isnīt my first language I fear that what I really wanted to say didnīt come out clear enough.

Stick to my first posts a couple of pages before, not more, not less.

[Mutton Geoff]

Constructive criticism = Good Idea

Destructive Criticism=    Bad Shit.

[steveeastend]

I think if you check the dates you were advocating Ancelloti to replace Rafa, while Rafa was fighting the owners for us.

Then today you start to talk about loyalty, now if that's an exaggeration then I'm out of order,but I'll stick with it.

I basically was trying to say that we all are loyal to the club, otherwise we wouldnīt post in here for years and having arguments page after page. That goes without saying.

I think that the "loyality argument" isnīt a fair one if used as the only counter argument in response when not being happy with the opinion of someone.

[Vulmea]

6.5 pages with 40 posts per page - approximately 60 posters means with an average  peak performance of 11 pages its currently underperformiong in thread terms but given it only started yesterday it has potential on its side and is likely yo hold its value for a leeast another day

it is performing in a high performance board and although it would be possible to bring other threads in I'm not sure we need to, it was started by the old grizzled one meaning it has some credibility and earned value

not sure Tel is amortised yet but the pubs are still open

[john_mac]

Well, probably a lot gets some sort of lost in translation. As english isnīt my first language I fear that what I really wanted to say didnīt come out clear enough.

Stick to my first posts a couple of pages before, not more, not less.

So get rid of Rafa bring Ancelotti in, is somehow lost in translation. Bollox I think, but still if you're happy that its not un-neccessary negativity, you stick with it mate.

What is your first language by the way? Moon? Coz its sounds like you are on it to me.   

I think that the "loyality argument" isnīt a fair one if used as the only counter argument in response when not being happy with the opinion of someone.

I never mentioned loyalty by the way, you did.

[Black Bull Nova]

So get rid of Rafa bring Ancelotti in, is somehow lost in translation. Bollox I think, but still if you're happy that its not un-neccessary negativity, you stick with it mate.

What is your first language by the way? Moon? Coz its sounds like you are on it to me.   

I never mentioned loyalty by the way, you did.

Please confirm to me that the reason that English is not your first language is not because you are a cockney called Steve from the east end

[Mutton Geoff]

Please confirm to me that the reason that English is not your first language is not because you are a cockney called Steve from the east end

 are you a Black Bull who drives a Nova?

I am not the real Geoff Strong either!

[Black Bull Nova]

are you a Black Bull who drives a Nova?

I am not the real Geoff Strong either!

That you are not Geoff Strong disappoints me greatly, I actually saw him play once (although at the time I was not aware of it)

I wish I was a Black Bull but have never had any interest in Vauxhall Nova's, (......Its a Wilco song)