Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles

[LallanaInPyjamas]

The left side of defence has got to be the priorities for improving. Clyne and Matip are both reliable and of a top level on right so that's fine, but Lovren and Milner both need improving on for different reasons. I think Dejan has proven to be a good solid defender now but his fitness record over his career is patchy and he isn't of the class of an Agger where you can still justify him as the number 1 because he's a special talent (the same argument would've gone for Sakho). Milner is 31, isn't a natural left back and isn't comfortable enough on the left peg to make a success of it like we've seen from the likes of greats like Maldini, Lahm or more ordinary players like Johnson or Adriano.

We might well sign that kid from Fulham but that'd still fall into the Trent category of being potentially the no1 in his position, but not quite ready just yet. 

I think the remit should be for a centre halve and left back who are both fast, powerful (ideally tall as well) and comfortable on the ball with a solid appearance record over their careers.

If we can get them - and there's two in particular that I'd like - then I think we can seriously improve on the defence.

Who are they out of interest mate?

I love Milner but watching Alex Sandro last night it's obvious how much an attacking left-back would help us and Coutinho in particular. They need to be able to defend too, though.

Milner will still get plenty of games in a variety of positions while being a far better understudy for LB than Moreno is.

Benjamin Mendy's the one but probably out of our league.

[Chalky Boots]

Who are they out of interest mate?

I love Milner but watching Alex Sandro last night it's obvious how much an attacking left-back would help us and Coutinho in particular. They need to be able to defend too, though.

Milner will still get plenty of games in a variety of positions while being a far better understudy for LB than Moreno is.

Benjamin Mendy's the one but probably out of our league.

Personally if we could, I'd go for Van Dijk and Kolasinac. This injury aside Van Dijk has an excellent appearance record and both have are units with speed and good on the ball ability. There are of course others out there but ideally getting another bargain off Schalke would be too good a chance to turn down.

[Keita Success]

Who are they out of interest mate?

I love Milner but watching Alex Sandro last night it's obvious how much an attacking left-back would help us and Coutinho in particular. They need to be able to defend too, though.

Milner will still get plenty of games in a variety of positions while being a far better understudy for LB than Moreno is.

Benjamin Mendy's the one but probably out of our league.

Mendy is fucking boss. Put in a big offer, Kloppo

[NaivetyinBlack]

Benjamin Mendy's the one but probably out of our league.

He's good but as Monaco's star has risen this season, he's starting to dip in form. Inconsistent.

[owens_2k]

The left side of defence has got to be the priorities for improving. Clyne and Matip are both reliable and of a top level on right so that's fine, but Lovren and Milner both need improving on for different reasons. I think Dejan has proven to be a good solid defender now but his fitness record over his career is patchy and he isn't of the class of an Agger where you can still justify him as the number 1 because he's a special talent (the same argument would've gone for Sakho). Milner is 31, isn't a natural left back and isn't comfortable enough on the left peg to make a success of it like we've seen from the likes of greats like Maldini, Lahm or more ordinary players like Johnson or Adriano.

We might well sign that kid from Fulham but that'd still fall into the Trent category of being potentially the no1 in his position, but not quite ready just yet. 

I think the remit should be for a centre halve and left back who are both fast, powerful (ideally tall as well) and comfortable on the ball with a solid appearance record over their careers.

If we can get them - and there's two in particular that I'd like - then I think we can seriously improve on the defence.

I think generally the best full backs tend not to be tall

[Chalky Boots]

I think generally the best full backs tend not to be tall

Wouldn't say there's any specific formula to them to be honest. I think if you go back over the last 15 years most of them have been varying sizes. Obviously you've got the smaller converted wingers like Carlos, Marcelo, Alves, Alba plus Cole and Lahm (who weren't) but on the flipside there's Maldini,Babbel, Alaba,Piszczek, Ivanovic, Abidal, Maicon, Lichsteiner and the Atletico pair.

That said, given our team is one of the smallest in the league we could do with adding height wherever possible; just look at Klopps Dortmund, Piszczek (6'1), Subotic (6'4), Hummels (6'4) and Schmelzer (5'11). Obviously height isn't a definitive to being strong in the air but it's clear we're quite a way off from what he had.

[markmywords]

Wouldn't say there's any specific formula to them to be honest. I think if you go back over the last 15 years most of them have been varying sizes. Obviously you've got the smaller converted wingers like Carlos, Marcelo, Alves, Alba plus Cole and Lahm (who weren't) but on the flipside there's Maldini,Babbel, Alaba,Piszczek, Ivanovic, Abidal, Maicon, Lichsteiner and the Atletico pair.

That said, given our team is one of the smallest in the league we could do with adding height wherever possible; just look at Klopps Dortmund, Piszczek (6'1), Subotic (6'4), Hummels (6'4) and Schmelzer (5'11). Obviously height isn't a definitive to being strong in the air but it's clear we're quite a way off from what he had.

(don't shoot me) I have been thinking about this, maybe an answer to this is going to 3 at the back, I was surprised to see klopp try this at stoke, so he doesn't appear totally averse to the idea.

I could see
              Gomez or new CB  -  Lovren/Lucas or new CB -  Matip

                                                     

it would mean we get an extra tall player in the side, without trying to find a tall fb with a left foot, an engine and quality.

We could then train Can or Henderson to be our Sergio Busquets or Dieter Eilts (for those a bit older), this formation change should help us defend counters.  I think Barca made this switch for these 2 reasons.

[PeterTheRed ...]

So, according to Paul Joyce, our interest in Virgil van Dijk is genuine.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/liverpool-put-50m-van-dijk-top-of-wanted-list-clg00sfx5

Maybe the "3 at the back" isn't just an experiment, but a genuine plan for the future.

[Suareznumber7]

So, according to Paul Joyce, our interest in Virgil van Dijk is genuine.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/liverpool-put-50m-van-dijk-top-of-wanted-list-clg00sfx5

Maybe the "3 at the back" isn't just an experiment, but a genuine plan for the future.

Either that or Lovren will be backup next year. 

[Fiasco]

West Brom will fancy their chances against us from set plays on Sunday, it'll be a big test for our defence to keep them out. In fairness, conceding a goal to a Pulis side from a corner or free-kick probably says more about the meticulous planning Pulis puts into them rather than the weakness of the team who concedes the goal. From what I've read Pulis is obsessive with his planning from such situations, almost like an offensive coach in the NFL running certain plays until they perfect it. I'm not sure any other manager pays such attention to set pieces as Pulis.


If we can keep them out in that particular department then we'll go a long way to getting a clean sheet and all 3 points.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Either that or Lovren will be backup next year. 

Possible, but Lovren is about to sign a new and improved contract, so the "3 at the back on regular basis" scenario looks more realistic to me, if the reports on Van Dijk are true.

[SerbianScouser]

From what I've read Pulis is obsessive with his planning from such situations, almost like an offensive coach in the NFL running certain plays until they perfect it. I'm not sure any other manager pays such attention to set pieces as Pulis.

They scored the most set-piece goals in the league after all. I'd be amazed if we keep a clean sheet against their aerial threat, we kept only one clean sheet last 13 games.

[SerbianScouser]

I looked at how our different CB pairings fared this season and thing that sticks out the most is that Lucas and Klavan played way too much for us as CBs this season.

Two of them played 21 league games in which we conceded 30 goals. It's just too many games for two players who are clearly not good enough to play for us as CBs over the course of the season. This for me is the main reason why we're on course to concede 50 goals 4th time in the row.

Matip and Lovren as a partnership played 11 games together , 0 defeats and 10 goals conceded.

I think our issue is personnel rather than systemic - some of our defenders deal with demands of our team better than others. We have the hardest working front 6 in the league due to which we concede second least amount of shots in the league. It was a good point today on TAW that when you look individually at our back 5 all of Mignolet, Clyne, Milner, Matip and Lovren had reasonably good campaigns but we are to concede 50 goals yet again.

We'll need to raise the quality of our back-up CBs next season dramatically if we want to finally become defensively competent enough to win the league.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I looked at how our different CB pairings fared this season and thing that sticks out the most is that Lucas and Klavan played way too much for us as CBs this season.

Two of them played 21 league games in which we conceded 30 goals. It's just too many games for two players who are clearly not good enough to play for us as CBs over the course of the season. This for me is the main reason why we're on course to concede 50 goals 4th time in the row.

Matip and Lovren as a partnership played 11 games together , 0 defeats and 10 goals conceded.

I think our issue is personnel rather than systemic - some of our defenders deal with demands of our team better than others. We have the hardest working front 6 in the league due to which we concede second least amount of shots in the league. It was a good point today on TAW that when you look individually at our back 5 all of Mignolet, Clyne, Milner, Matip and Lovren had reasonably good campaigns but we are to concede 50 goals yet again.

We'll need to raise the quality of our back-up CBs next season dramatically if we want to finally become defensively competent enough to win the league.

Agree. We definitely need to be signing two defenders this summer, maybe even a third if they're a young one more for the future. We looked short last summer and after seeing Klavan play and the decline of Moreno we look even shorter now.

[Fiasco]

Agree. We definitely need to be signing two defenders this summer, maybe even a third if they're a young one more for the future. We looked short last summer and after seeing Klavan play and the decline of Moreno we look even shorter now.

Throwing a lot of money at Southampton for van Dijk and keeping Sakho would be the ideal scenario. It wont happen, but having Matip, van Dijk, Sakho and Lovren to choose from would be perfect.

We'll cost cut probably and end up in crisis at some point but we are literally one signing away from having 4 really good options to pick from who all have different qualities and who are all in their mid 20s.

[daggerdoo]

Throwing a lot of money at Southampton for van Dijk and keeping Sakho would be the ideal scenario. It wont happen, but having Matip, van Dijk, Sakho and Lovren to choose from would be perfect.

We'll cost cut probably and end up in crisis at some point but we are literally one signing away from having 4 really good options to pick from who all have different qualities and who are all in their mid 20s.

I really can't see any scenario where we have four first team central defenders fighting for two spots. Would love it, especially if it included mama.

I think it should be a really class cb coming in to partner matip, with lovren as backup and klavan as fourth choice. I can't make a judgement on gomez at cb as the only time i've seen him there was pre-season i think, maybe a cup game, but he looked pretty poor.

[Fiasco]

I really can't see any scenario where we have four first team central defenders fighting for two spots. Would love it, especially if it included mama.

I think it should be a really class cb coming in to partner matip, with lovren as backup and klavan as fourth choice. I can't make a judgement on gomez at cb as the only time i've seen him there was pre-season i think, maybe a cup game, but he looked pretty poor.

I generally subscribe to the old notion that you need two players for each position and two quality players at that. Our problem this season and going back quote a few seasons has been our defence, not our ability to score goals. Having a midfielder in Lucas slot into centre back or a pretty average veteran in Klavan being third choice for a side like Liverpool simply isn't going to cut it and it has cost us again this time around in our efforts to maintain a title challenge.

Should we make the Champions League then having those 4 as options would be fantastic and it would go so far in helping us challenge in all competitions. Matip, Lovren and Sakho all seem to pick up niggling injuries and who knows how long it'll take van Dijk to get back up to speed as he suffered a season-ending injury, so game time shouldn't be a problem and all would have a chance to stake a claim as being first choice.

Having 4 such options means that complacency shouldn't be an issue. Would Sakho want to piss about or underperform knowing he'd be at last chance saloon? van Dijk would be a new signing, he would be desperate to impress and get up and running after an injury. Lovren still divides opinion here and hasn't quite lived up to his price tag so he would want to improve, especially on the back of a new contract and Matip will have had a year to adjust to the league, country and whatnot and will himself want to show his earlier season form on a regular basis.

I don't mean it to sound very football managerish but it is something we haven't done for a while, have 4 quality options at the back. When was the last time? The complacency issue is so important across the whole back line. Milner is a thorough professional but he isn't getting dropped for Moreno unless he starts backheeling the ball into his own net on purpose. Clyne has more chance of being replaced by Alexander-Arnold but Nathaniel's form has been indifferent yet Klopp persists.

It's about quality, not numbers. We need more quality in key positions, if we continue to cut costs in defence then we will continue to ship goals. Shipping goals cost us the title 3 years ago, not a slip or a meltdown at Palace. It was conceding 50 goals over 38 games. This season we've conceded 40 already, out of the top 9 teams in the league only West Brom have a worse record with 41 goals against, so there isn't anything in it. It shows that our firepower up front has been the main reason getting us into the position we are in, if we could be more frugal at the back with better players to choose from then we'd surely have a better chance at maintaining a challenge and winning trophies going forward.

[diegoLFC7]

West Brom will kick long balls and look for aerial duels in search of a set piece. We need to put 3 past them before they get a goal. If they score before us itll be one of those days where we cant break them down.

[Barefoot Doctor]

Possible, but Lovren is about to sign a new and improved contract, so the "3 at the back on regular basis" scenario looks more realistic to me, if the reports on Van Dijk are true.

I just don't see the current formation as anything other than Klopp responding to the Henderson, Lallana and Mane injuries. If those three were fit, would we be playing three at the back? I don't think so.

And I don't think signing Van Dijk (or another top CB) is indicative of anything other than Klopp wanting to improve his pool of CBs. Ideally you have three 'first choice' guys, but as it stands we only have Matip and Lovren and then very clear back-ups in Klavan and Lucas.

And even then, we've struggled to get Matip and Lovren on the pitch together consistently so it makes loads of sense to get someone you can trust to be available most weeks. Lovren will end up missing a minimum of 9 league games this year, 14 last season, 12 the season before. Maybe all those absences aren't through injury, but that's a lot of games each year.

Matip's going to miss a minimum of 10 league games this year too, which again is a lot. Played every game for Schalke in the Bundesliga last season, but missed half the season the year before.

And any player can get injured - Van Dijk is going to end up missing half of this season - but his record the last few years is excellent. 39 league games last season (played a few for Celtic before moving to Southampton), 35 the season before and 36 in 13/14. In his last full year with Celtic he played 58 games! I think you could trust him to be consistently available, whereas with our current guys it feels like they're prone to picking up knocks.

[Ratboy3G]

The title of this thread 

Are you denying that the defence thread has been rejuvenated?

[Chalky Boots]

Possible, but Lovren is about to sign a new and improved contract, so the "3 at the back on regular basis" scenario looks more realistic to me, if the reports on Van Dijk are true.

I don't necessarily think new contract = manager doesn't have designs on trading up on you. It's not a slate to lovren but I'm not sure what the plan was with him at the start the season before Sakho got cast out; as in was he going to continue starting or was Matip his replacement - either way it was one or the other if you think about the 4th CB addition was another for the left side.

Almost every report that's linked us to a central defender has gone along the lines of Jurgen being unsatisfied with the physical reliability of our central defenders. Lovren's appearance record is actually on average as bad as - if not worse than - Aggers and I think we can all agree he's nowhere near the talent of Daniel.

I mean it's like was on about earlier on in the thread, you need constants in defence to be good, or a special level talents we don't really have that (matip might become that though). So it's not a huge surprise to see Van Dijk being the man he allegedly wants. He's a big unit, an exceptionally good ball player and, this injury aside, has an excellent appearance record; career average is around 30 games a season, which is really good.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

For years we struggled with being prolific in front of goal,under Rafa we were very solid in terms of defending, the amount of clean sheets we kept in comparison to now is laughable. If we went 1-0 up, I knew that was that, points guranteed but we stuggled in the other end of the pitch in crucial periods. Years later, its the other way around. We go two nil up and Im shitting bricks, we have kept 6 clean sheets all season.

There has to be some middle ground. Our defending has not improved, we are going to end the season with 50 goals conceded more than likely. which I believe is the 3rd or 4th season in a row. 200 goals conceded in 4 seasons is a travesty.

[rscanderlech]

For years we struggled with being prolific in front of goal,under Rafa we were very solid in terms of defending, the amount of clean sheets we kept in comparison to now is laughable. If we went 1-0 up, I knew that was that, points guranteed but we stuggled in the other end of the pitch in crucial periods. Years later, its the other way around. We go two nil up and Im shitting bricks, we have kept 6 clean sheets all season.

There has to be some middle ground. Our defending has not improved, we are going to end the season with 50 goals conceded more than likely. which I believe is the 3rd or 4th season in a row. 200 goals conceded in 4 seasons is a travesty.

In my view it's two things. The first is that we are playing a more offensive style. But even very offensive sides of the past have had excellent defensive records. In fact, Tottenham now equal our GF in the PL this season, yet they arguably have the best defense...

...which leads to reason number two: we simply haven't got the quality and the depth in goal, in defence and in midfield to do this. Since Hyppia left around 2010, our defensive personnel (as well as defensive midfielders) have declined in quality, yet we play more offensive football.

In my view it's that simple: we need better players, and the right profile of player for the system we now play.

[RogerTheRed]

Will be interesting to see if Gomes is ready to play a major part next season?

[poopscoop]

Will be interesting to see if Gomes is ready to play a major part next season?

Gomes makes the bench today. Klavan is out injured. If Klopp was intent on three at the back surely Gomes would play today. Telling?

[SerbianScouser]

By my count Matip and Lovren together started 13 games for us - 0 defeats 11 goals conceded.

Brilliant.

[rickardinho1]

Anyone think it would be realistic to get both Van Dijk and Michael Keane, to effectively replace Klavan and Lucas in the squad?

Matip - Van Dijk
Lovren - Keane
Gomez

Not sure someone like Keane would want to join to be 4th choice but that would be as strong a pool of CB's as anyone, and with a perfect age profile.

[Chalky Boots]

Anyone think it would be realistic to get both Van Dijk and Michael Keane, to effectively replace Klavan and Lucas in the squad?

Matip - Van Dijk
Lovren - Keane
Gomez

Not sure someone like Keane would want to join to be 4th choice but that would be as strong a pool of CB's as anyone, and with a perfect age profile.

Not particularly, no. Plus I don't think the idea for Gomez is for him to be lingering around twiddling his thumbs for another season.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

By my count Matip and Lovren together started 13 games for us - 0 defeats 11 goals conceded.

Brilliant.

Indeed. Makes you wonder what we could have achieved this season had we properly replaced Sakho as we should have.

[PeterTheRed ...]

I just don't see the current formation as anything other than Klopp responding to the Henderson, Lallana and Mane injuries. If those three were fit, would we be playing three at the back? I don't think so.

And I don't think signing Van Dijk (or another top CB) is indicative of anything other than Klopp wanting to improve his pool of CBs. Ideally you have three 'first choice' guys, but as it stands we only have Matip and Lovren and then very clear back-ups in Klavan and Lucas.

And even then, we've struggled to get Matip and Lovren on the pitch together consistently so it makes loads of sense to get someone you can trust to be available most weeks. Lovren will end up missing a minimum of 9 league games this year, 14 last season, 12 the season before. Maybe all those absences aren't through injury, but that's a lot of games each year.

Matip's going to miss a minimum of 10 league games this year too, which again is a lot. Played every game for Schalke in the Bundesliga last season, but missed half the season the year before.

And any player can get injured - Van Dijk is going to end up missing half of this season - but his record the last few years is excellent. 39 league games last season (played a few for Celtic before moving to Southampton), 35 the season before and 36 in 13/14. In his last full year with Celtic he played 58 games! I think you could trust him to be consistently available, whereas with our current guys it feels like they're prone to picking up knocks.

It seems that I wasn't precise enough. When I say "3 at the back on regular basis", I mean against the weaker teams that are bombarding our box for the entire game. Against the stronger teams we will probably still play Klopp's preferred 4-3-3.

[rickardinho1]

Not particularly, no. Plus I don't think the idea for Gomez is for him to be lingering around twiddling his thumbs for another season.

Yeah I agree with you, was just thinking out loud. 

It'll be interesting to see how Gomez progresses next season - i.e. if he'll be seen as 4th choice ahead of Klavan for example. Either way, Klavan and Gomez offers a pretty solid mix of experience and youth to have in a 4th/5th choice CB for league cup games, and Klavan has been generally solid against top sides so is fairly dependable for CL nights if needed (should we qualify).

[TepidT2O]

It seems that I wasn't precise enough. When I say "3 at the back on regular basis", I mean against the weaker teams that are bombarding our box for the entire game. Against the stronger teams we will probably still play Klopp's preferred 4-3-3.

We didn't really see a back three today though did we?

Mostly it was a back four with Lucas only dropping back to make a five when we were under pressure.

It was a very fluid formation..

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Based on the sample size we have, had both Matip and Lovren been available more than they have, we'd concede a lot less than we have. But both seem to be really prone to niggles and missing out, which doesn't happen at Tottenham's back line or Chelsea's back line [United tho have had injuries to their centerhalves and have not suffered on the pitch due to it]

Signing Van Dijk would be marvelous. Van Dijk,Matip,Lovren and one of Gomez/Klavan as the 4th cb.

[PeterTheRed ...]

We didn't really see a back three today though did we?

Mostly it was a back four with Lucas only dropping back to make a five when we were under pressure.

It was a very fluid formation..

I can see Matip/Van Dijk/Lovren doing that perfectly next season. That is why I like the idea.

[rickardinho1]

Based on the sample size we have, had both Matip and Lovren been available more than they have, we'd concede a lot less than we have. But both seem to be really prone to niggles and missing out, which doesn't happen at Tottenham's back line or Chelsea's back line [United tho have had injuries to their centerhalves and have not suffered on the pitch due to it]

Signing Van Dijk would be marvelous. Van Dijk,Matip,Lovren and one of Gomez/Klavan as the 4th cb.

With the niggles Matip and Lovren have it would be pretty sensible to have both Gomez and Klavan around next season as 4th/5th CB to ensure that we don't have to make a Caulker-esque emergency CB loan.

Might feel like a bit of an overkill to have 5 CB's, but this season with no European football it was too little to have just 4 CB's (Matip, Lovren, Klavan, Gomez).

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I can see Matip/Van Dijk/Lovren doing that perfectly next season. That is why I like the idea.

You also need better fullbacks, certainly someone better than Milner.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

With the niggles Matip and Lovren have it would be pretty sensible to have both Gomez and Klavan around next season as 4th/5th CB to ensure that we don't have to make a Caulker-esque emergency CB loan.

Might feel like a bit of an overkill to have 5 CB's, but this season with no European football it was too little to have just 4 CB's (Matip, Lovren, Klavan, Gomez).

You are right, I agree. Hopefully we are prepared and have learned from the injuries,fixtures and problems we have had this year

[CallumLFC]

I can see Matip/Van Dijk/Lovren doing that perfectly next season. That is why I like the idea.

You really do get ahead of yourself. You do know Van Dijk will be wanted by City and Chelsea in the summer?

[sms1986]

You really do get ahead of yourself. You do know Van Dijk will be wanted by City and Chelsea in the summer?

And? Lets see who gets him, if he even leaves Southampton in the summer.

[Haggis36]

Gomez really ought to go out on loan for a season to be honest. Not ready for us, and not gonna get the gametime he needs to improve if he sticks around next season.