Topic: Louis Van Gaal was the Manager of Mourinho United

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yep, agree. There is a good reason why Germans always win on penalties, or why England always lose at them. If it was all tottary, then the distribution would look more like a uniform distribution.

Hoek was involved and obviously they practiced for this a lot and analyzed CR players. However, I am not sure that Krul knew when they'll shoot or it was more waiting until they shoot and then with his reach try to save them. Although if you look, only Sneijder and Kuyt from the 9 penalty takers shot on the other side when they are supposed to shoot. If you prepare well for penalties, you increase the chances of winning. Having decent penalty takers and one of the best goalkeeping coach helps too.

Absolutely. What I find amazing is people not giving Van Gaal and his staff credit for preparing for the penalties - like he just thought of some crazy idea on the spur of the moment, and then went with his gut. This is Van Gaal - he is obsessed with detail and rehearsal, to the point of removing most of the thinking from his players if he could.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think even that is being conservative.

Lambert score 32 out of 32 for Southampton didn't he? I'd wager luck had very little to do with it.

If he never practiced them, though. I'm sure he has practiced penalties a lot to get to the level he is at. Maybe not to the detail of which side the keeper favours diving (which is one of the things you scout if you can for penalties), but certainly practiced his own technique for accuracy and rhythm

[TheRevanchist]

Absolutely. What I find amazing is people not giving Van Gaal and his staff credit for preparing for the penalties - like he just thought of some crazy idea on the spur of the moment, and then went with his gut. This is Van Gaal - he is obsessed with detail and rehearsal, to the point of removing most of the thinking from his players if he could.

Yeah, he used a video analyzer as early as two decades ago and as you said is obsessed with these kind of things to the degree that creative players suffer from him because he doesn't want them to try making runs unless they are on 1 vs 1 situations. Together with Bielsa he may be the biggest coaching maniac on the world.

[rushyman]

That assumes Costa Rica knew that Holland were preparing for their specific penalties.

Has everyone forgotten Jens Lehmann's piece of paper down his sock?

No, they were prepared. Valero used to do the same with Reina when they were at Liverpool. Most penalty takers are creatures of habit - if not direction, then in technique and height. There's a lot you can predict in a penalty shoot-out if you prepare properly

It's not about which keeper did the research. It's about which keeper could remember the style of each player on the field - much like bobsleighers have to remember every turn - the one with the best memory will be the navigator in the front. If you can't remember the turns, you put your team in trouble. Remembering the penalty techniques of 20-odd players (given that most of them are right-footed) is not overwhelmingly difficult.

I think theres now a degree of over analysing going on here. Test for each keepers memory on penalties and still not going for the winner to keep goal because we'll only use 2 subs in 120 minutes of football. And letgs not forget he got extremely lucky getting krull on at all. waited till the last seconds and only an offside was given it wouldnt have happened, not exactly strategic

Ive just read that the other keepers never saved 1 penalty in pro football. I think thats more like it

[muyuu]

He stopped two penalties apparently.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think theres now a degree of over analysing going on here. Test for each keepers memory on penalties and still not going for the winner to keep goal because we'll only use 2 subs in 120 minutes of football. And letgs not forget he got extremely lucky getting krull on at all. waited till the last seconds and only an offside was given it wouldnt have happened, not exactly strategic

Ive just read that the other keepers never saved 1 penalty in pro football. I think thats more like it

Feel free to think what you want. Van Gaal's ideas are all down in book form for you to read, including his rules for what players do in special situations. He is obsessed with detail, and if he subbed Krul on for penalties, it's because Krul was better at penalties, for sure. But also that he had a better chance of acting on scouting information than the starting keeper. There was less luck than preparation involved here. I would hazard that if Van Gaal wasn't going to be United's manager, people would be praising this to the heavens.

[lessthanmatt]

I don't think that you can use game theory here. Game theory assumes that the players are perfectly reasonable, which in this case isn't true considering the pressure that was. Also, as I said psycologically they were weaker cause they thought that Krul is a great penalty stopper.

I also am not sure that Krul knew where they'll shot. I think that he dived in the last moment after he saw where the players are shooting. He also said: ''We had looked at them, but we didn't learn anything. The power was standing still and then going in. Me and Frans Hoek worked on it".

Yeah, that's true about assumption of rational play. There was no guarantee that Krul would act rationally, oblivious to pressure, either. Game theory or not, I still think it boils down to who can psych who out.

I think that could have been the case @ psychologically weaker, but there's nothing to quantify state of mind. For all we know, the Costa Ricans might have been uplifted at a new goalkeeper thrown straight from the bench into the frying pan, or have been entirely unperturbed. That their penalties weren't so good as they were against Greece (and they were by no means awful penalties tonight) has no tangible, concrete link to what they were thinking at the time of their penalties.

[Stussy]

fuck, United are going to win all the penalty shoot outs in the league next season

[rushyman]

Feel free to think what you want. Van Gaal's ideas are all down in book form for you to read, including his rules for what players do in special situations. He is obsessed with detail, and if he subbed Krul on for penalties, it's because Krul was better at penalties, for sure. But also that he had a better chance of acting on scouting information than the starting keeper. There was less luck than preparation involved here. I would hazard that if Van Gaal wasn't going to be United's manager, people would be praising this to the heavens.

Thats not what Im doing at all. I would think its odd, as I did

Check some of my posts about domestic football. I could honestly take a year out the way I feel at the moment. Im sick of thinking about Man U Chelsea Everton Suarez and tghe rest if it. Ive really enjoyed this world cup. Its been a celebration of football and Ive enjoyed just enjoying football, not watching it with an agenda. I wish I could always be like that

But back I'll be watching us in august and just wanting full time and us to have scored more then the other team. And having to arguer with manc twats about things that happened decades ago

[dublinred101]

Feel free to think what you want. Van Gaal's ideas are all down in book form for you to read, including his rules for what players do in special situations. He is obsessed with detail, and if he subbed Krul on for penalties, it's because Krul was better at penalties, for sure. But also that he had a better chance of acting on scouting information than the starting keeper. There was less luck than preparation involved here. I would hazard that if Van Gaal wasn't going to be United's manager, people would be praising this to the heavens.

What book is that mate? Would like a read of that.

[afc tukrish]

Feel free to think what you want. Van Gaal's ideas are all down in book form for you to read, including his rules for what players do in special situations. He is obsessed with detail, and if he subbed Krul on for penalties, it's because Krul was better at penalties, for sure. But also that he had a better chance of acting on scouting information than the starting keeper. There was less luck than preparation involved here. I would hazard that if Van Gaal wasn't going to be United's manager, people would be praising this to the heavens.

Also, the Dutch had an advantage in preparation, which they clearly took advantage of, in that Costa Rica had just progressed on penalties. They had better, more current information than the Costa Ricans did.

Penalties aren't a lottery. They're not luck. Nations that believe penalties are lucky, and the Dutch are especially prone to this sort of thinking, which is why their record in penalty shootouts is so poor, like England's, do poorly.

Van Gaal had managed to win a shootout before at Ajax, World Club Championship, maybe?

He believes in preparation. It worked.

[TheRevanchist]

Yeah, that's true about assumption of rational play. There was no guarantee that Krul would act rationally, oblivious to pressure, either. Game theory or not, I still think it boils down to who can psych who out.

I think that could have been the case @ psychologically weaker, but there's nothing to quantify state of mind. For all we know, the Costa Ricans might have been uplifted at a new goalkeeper thrown straight from the bench into the frying pan, or have been entirely unperturbed. That their penalties weren't so good as they were against Greece (and they were by no means awful penalties tonight) has no tangible, concrete link to what they were thinking at the time of their penalties.

I think they were scared. Why would someone make such a rare move to replace the keeper in the end? Because the keeper is great at penalties.

Now, Krul isn't great at them in general. He saved only 2 out of last 20 penalties. But I think that Costa Rica players would have thought that he was great at it, there is no other rational reason to change the keeper unless he is a penalty monster. Most of them haven't ever heard about Krul so they didn't knew that he isn't anything extra-ordinary at it.

It might be overanalyzing but I think that this is quite possible. Costa Rica were more on pressure and I think that by making such a move, Van Gaal took the pressure out of his players. If Holland would have lost, people would have been blaming (and talking) about Van Gaal and how he made such a mistake, not about the players who lost the pens.

And finally, despite Krul's bad record, still he is better than Cillessen at pens. Also, Krul looks threatening and is a bit of a prick (you saw how he toyed with CR players) while Cillessen looks like a 13 years old teenager and is shy.

[PhaseOfPlay]

What book is that mate? Would like a read of that.

"Louis Van Gaal - Penalty Shootouts are for Losers", Penguin Press, 1995



No, seriously, it's "The Coaching Philosophies of Louis van Gaal and the Ajax Coaches"

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Credit to Van Gaal. He's not an absolute genius, but his move with Krul was a ballsy risk, and it paid off. Actually, many of his subs and/or tactical changes throughout this WC have also worked.

I think it's a bit of bitter behavior to deny the good he's doing just cause "he's a manc omg etc", but then again, I'm probably blessed in that I'm not surrounded by Man U fans at work, at uni or anywhere else (only know 1 person) teasing about Van Gaal, that I don't find a problem in recognizing the Dutchman's tactical abilities.

[Durlmints]

Thats not what Im doing at all. I would think its odd, as I did

Check some of my posts about domestic football. I could honestly take a year out the way I feel at the moment. Im sick of thinking about Man U Chelsea Everton Suarez and tghe rest if it. Ive really enjoyed this world cup. Its been a celebration of football and Ive enjoyed just enjoying football, not watching it with an agenda. I wish I could always be like that

But back I'll be watching us in august and just wanting full time and us to have scored more then the other team. And having to arguer with manc twats about things that happened decades ago

I agree with you on that. Seems such a tedious proposition at the moment! The World Cup really has been great fun, with the matches largely played in fantastic spirit.

[cloggypop]

I watched this in Holland with a load of terrified Dutch people. I never knew how scared of penalties they were. This is a decent article about it.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jun/27/holland-mexico-world-cup-nightmare-penalties

[TheRevanchist]

I watched this in Holland with a load of terrified Dutch people. I never knew how scared of penalties they were. This is a decent article about it.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jun/27/holland-mexico-world-cup-nightmare-penalties

With good reason. Only England has a worse record than them on penalty shootouts in big competitions.

[lessthanmatt]

Almost all players will play to their strong foot. Almost all players will take penalties the same way. There will be a few who have the ability to switch it up, but in the pressure of a shootout, right footers will go to the left, left footers will go to the right or down the middle (both footers for power), while a few will prefer to side-foot the ball. Almost all players will go for the corners. So once you scout the takers and find out which side they will predominantly go to, then it's just a matter of timing the jump, guessing top or bottom, and then hoping they don't put their foot through it.

Krul guessed right on all of them. If they went through all 11 players, my contention is he would have guessed all but maybe one of the takers right.

Penalties are woefully under-prepared in English football. There are too many myths about what you can or can't do in them.

If it was as matter-of-fact or algorithmic as that, then you'd hope most international goalkeepers and goalkeeping coaches would be aware of it, even the supposed smaller fish like Costa Rica. Yet I'd doubt there would be much variation in success between teams/goalkeepers that employ this knowledge and teams that don't. I have no statistics for this, but that would be my hypothesis. When I take penalties (admittedly, not the pressure of the world cup quite ) I decide on a side at random as I'm placing the ball, without (at the least, conscious) regard for my stronger foot. I imagine it is the same for many people at many levels.

If you can dive left, dive right and stand still, then I think you are fit to try save penalties. Timing never seems like too much of an issue.

The only true 'too-early' dive is one where the taker can observe your choice and shoot the other way, which very few players seem capable of actually doing.  Some might say if you dive too early, you might be in a worse position to save a high shot. But since guessing low or high is exactly that, a guess, by diving fractionally earlier than any so-called perfect timing, you're just as likely to reach the ball if it goes to that side. 'Too-late' dives are more common, but again I am skeptical of whether these can be refined through practice, particularly since all penalty-takers have different run-ups and styles of approach.

I agree about the English bit. Penalties are treated like some sort of unfathomable voodoo magic here. Overall, I think we're all over-complicating this. It's a set of kicks from 12 yards, and we just fundamentally disagree on how much credit van Gaal deserves for his substitution.

[Latenight Surfer]

Feel free to think what you want. Van Gaal's ideas are all down in book form for you to read, including his rules for what players do in special situations. He is obsessed with detail, and if he subbed Krul on for penalties, it's because Krul was better at penalties, for sure. But also that he had a better chance of acting on scouting information than the starting keeper. There was less luck than preparation involved here. I would hazard that if Van Gaal wasn't going to be United's manager, people would be praising this to the heavens.

And if the dutch were to lose, nobody would be talking about how he analyzes his opponents.

While I do agree that penalties are a mix of luck and technique, I must say that, the instructions given to Krul about the opposition were spot on. But, what made that so accurate? If we are talking about how well Van Gaal prepares before the match here, then I am sure, as a coach of the Costa Rican national team, Pinto too knows what kind of a coach Van Gaal is and what he would be up against when it all came down to a penalty shoot-out. While the Dutch might have worked on which directions the Costa Rican players would go this time based upon the previous penalty kicks taken by them in the previous game ( might as well be 10 games, who knows), then here the Dutch will depend on a pattern which they have worked upon and hope that Costa Rica continue on that pattern, so that would provide the data for Krul who will now have to hope for Costa Rica to stick to that pattern and prove the data right.

So ultimately it comes down to whether or not Costa Rica would continue to stick to that pattern or not, which is again a gamble Assuming that Costa Rica do have a pattern .

So maybe Pinto thought that the Dutch would do the opposite and instead instructed the players to stick with the same pattern, but guess what, this time Van Gaal didn't choose to do the opposite and the Dutch won.

But nobody talked about how obsessed Pinto is with his 'data' because they lost to Van Gaal's data and people were ready to praise Van Gaal here on RAWK but slowly, yes slowly, they started realizing that he is the manager of Manchester United and they instead started praising the, guess what, data... or the paper or the pad no, no it's surely the pen.

And not so surprisingly the winner ends-up being praised for the usage of Data and skill which is 50% of the penalty-taking tactics and the loser starts thinking about what gave up on him, the luck or the data. Surely, it is the luck, because he didn't have a data in the first place, which is quite obvious as he ended up being on the losing side.

Surely you do have your 'data' about Van Gaal and you have the right to stick with it, but I was merely analyzing it. 

[4pool]

Krul save Ruiz' penalty kick.

Against Greece he went high left. Against Holland he went low right. He changed his kick.

Krul saved Umana's kick.

Against Greece he went high left. Against Holland he went low right. Changed his kick.

All this talk of preparation for Krul.....well the two who went against the previous script were saved.

[PhaseOfPlay]

And if the dutch were to lose, nobody would be talking about how he analyzes his opponents.

While I do agree that penalties are a mix of luck and technique, I must say that, the instructions given to Krul about the opposition were spot on. But, what made that so accurate? If we are talking about how well Van Gaal prepares before the match here, then I am sure, as a coach of the Costa Rican national team, Pinto too knows what kind of a coach Van Gaal is and what he would be up against when it all came down to a penalty shoot-out. While the Dutch might have worked on which directions the Costa Rican players would go this time based upon the previous penalty kicks taken by them in the previous game ( might as well be 10 games, who knows), then here the Dutch will depend on a pattern which they have worked upon and hope that Costa Rica continue on that pattern, so that would provide the data for Krul who will now have to hope for Costa Rica to stick to that pattern and prove the data right.

So ultimately it comes down to whether or not Costa Rica would continue to stick to that pattern or not, which is again a gamble Assuming that Costa Rica do have a pattern .

So maybe Pinto thought that the Dutch would do the opposite and instead instructed the players to stick with the same pattern, but guess what, this time Van Gaal didn't choose to do the opposite and the Dutch won.

But nobody talked about how obsessed Pinto is with his 'data' because they lost to Van Gaal's data and people were ready to praise Van Gaal here on RAWK but slowly, yes slowly, they started realizing that he is the manager of Manchester United and they instead started praising the, guess what, data... or the paper or the pad no, no it's surely the pen.

And not so surprisingly the winner ends-up being praised for the usage of Data and skill which is 50% of the penalty-taking tactics and the loser starts thinking about what gave up on him, the luck or the data. Surely, it is the luck, because he didn't have a data in the first place, which is quite obvious as he ended up being on the losing side.

Surely you do have your 'data' about Van Gaal and you have the right to stick with it, but I was merely analyzing it. 

We've known for years that running your players into the ground in the pursuit of fitness is counter-productive and causes injuries

And yet managers still do it.

Why is that?

[lessthanmatt]

I think they were scared. Why would someone make such a rare move to replace the keeper in the end? Because the keeper is great at penalties.

Now, Krul isn't great at them in general. He saved only 2 out of last 20 penalties. But I think that Costa Rica players would have thought that he was great at it, there is no other rational reason to change the keeper unless he is a penalty monster. Most of them haven't ever heard about Krul so they didn't knew that he isn't anything extra-ordinary at it.

It might be overanalyzing but I think that this is quite possible. Costa Rica were more on pressure and I think that by making such a move, Van Gaal took the pressure out of his players. If Holland would have lost, people would have been blaming (and talking) about Van Gaal and how he made such a mistake, not about the players who lost the pens.

And finally, despite Krul's bad record, still he is better than Cillessen at pens. Also, Krul looks threatening and is a bit of a prick (you saw how he toyed with CR players) while Cillessen looks like a 13 years old teenager and is shy.

The Costa Ricans might have saw that and recognised it as an attempt to put them off or disturb their concentration? Again, we can never be inside their heads to know for sure. I think they were just concentrating on what they were going to do with their penalty irrespective of the fact that it was Krul who stood before them now, not Cillessen.

I liked Krul's gamesmanship! No worse than when keepers do star jumps on the goal line, jelly legs, sidesteps etc. for me. The lamest put-off tactic I'm aware of is on David Seaman's Jeepers Keepers where he details how you should put a bit of backspin on the ball when you throw it to the penalty-taker, to make them walk slightly further. Definitely not the highlight of that VHS!

I would have just loved one of Costa Rica's successful penalty takers to give the sledging back to Krul and get all up in his face after putting it past him though

[PhaseOfPlay]

Krul save Ruiz' penalty kick.

Against Greece he went high left. Against Holland he went low right. He changed his kick.

Krul saved Umana's kick.

Against Greece he went high left. Against Holland he went low right. Changed his kick.

All this talk of preparation for Krul.....well the two who went against the previous script were saved.

So you're saying he DIDN'T prepare for them, yes?

[apocalypse]

Krul save Ruiz' penalty kick.

Against Greece he went high left. Against Holland he went low right. He changed his kick.

Ruiz' penalty was terrible. If you look back to where Krul was standing he was about a foot off center towards the left. Ruiz must had been determined to kick the ball in that direction and Krul knew (or Ruiz didn't bother to look where the keeper was standing)

[Latenight Surfer]

We've known for years that running your players into the ground in the pursuit of fitness is counter-productive and causes injuries

And yet managers still do it.

Why is that?

I am sorry, but can you be more clear.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I am sorry, but can you be more clear.

Your contention is that if Holland studied Costa Rica's penalties, then Pinto would have guessed this, tried to double bluff Holland, but Holland triple bluffed Pinto, and because they won, we're only referring to their ability to scout. In other words, are you contending that Costa Rica also scouted Holland, but because they lost, we're assuming that they didn't?

[Latenight Surfer]

Your contention is that if Holland studied Costa Rica's penalties, then Pinto would have guessed this, tried to double bluff Holland, but Holland triple bluffed Pinto, and because they won, we're only referring to their ability to scout. In other words, are you contending that Costa Rica also scouted Holland, but because they lost, we're assuming that they didn't?

No. All I am saying is that no matter how much a team would scout another, even if the head of the scout is a certain Van Gaal it all comes down to an instinct.

Those managers who have no problem in letting the players choose their instincts will not instruct them to stick to the data and those who want the players to stick to the manager's instinct will create a data for the players to stick to it by analyzing the opponents, again, through their (the manager and his coaching team's) instincts.

If the manager is not a control freak he would choose the former and if he is, he would choose the latter. Back when football and science & technology weren't sleeping together they were going by their instincts  (to each his own) and now some are depending upon a data which again is prepared by instincts, even if you watch tons of videos of your opposition including videos of their grandparents' penalty shoot-outs involving various patterns.( Which is what is confusing some on here in thinking that data preparation does not involve instincts.)

When analyzing a human beings next move no data or technology would be independent of the uncertainty factor is all I am saying, at least when it comes to penalty shoot-outs and who is in charge of the uncertainty ( players or coaches) is a decision made by the head.

As to what exactly paid-off for Van Gaal today is a question that can never be answered ( not only in his case, be it any penalty-shootout). All we can do is believe that it is the data that saved the day or believe that it is the luck that saved the day. Just like some would believe that he would go right and some would believe that he would go to the left.

Which tells us that without instinct their is no data. And if you are under the impression that data preparation is independent of instinct and is solely based upon stats and patterns and heights and weights and shoes and laces, then it might as well mean that we are not watching human beings play football and instead watching a bunch of robots play football who are under instructions 24/7, which isn't the case, at least when it comes to a penalty shoot-out, at least when the manager isn't Van Gaal.

I am not against praising the usage of technology or data, but what I am saying is that, while they might have the upper hand in some cases, the guessing game remains, at least when it comes to penalties. Who is in charge of the instincts is a matter of choice not ability.

[PhaseOfPlay]

No. All I am saying is that no matter how much a team would scout another, even if the head of the scout is a certain Van Gaal it all comes down to an instinct.

Those managers who have no problem in letting the players choose their instincts will not instruct them to stick to the data and those who want the players to stick to the manager's instinct will create a data for the players to stick to it by analyzing the opponents, again, through their (the manager and his coaching team's) instincts.

If the manager is not a control freak he would choose the former and if he is, he would choose the latter. Back when football and science & technology weren't sleeping together they were going by their instincts  (to each his own) and now some are depending upon a data which again is prepared by instincts, even if you watch tons of videos of your opposition including videos of their grandparents' penalty shoot-outs involving various patterns.( Which is what is confusing some on here in thinking that data preparation does not involve instincts.)

When analyzing a human beings next move no data or technology would be independent of the uncertainty factor is all I am saying, at least when it comes to penalty shoot-outs and who is in charge of the uncertainty ( players or coaches) is a decision made by the head.

As to what exactly paid-off for Van Gaal today is a question that can never be answered ( not only in his case, be it any penalty-shootout). All we can do is believe that it is the data that saved the day or believe that it is the luck that saved the day. Just like some would believe that he would go right and some would believe that he would go to the left.

Which tells us that without instinct their is no data. And if you are under the impression that data preparation is independent of instinct and is solely based upon stats and patterns and heights and weights and shoes and laces, then it might as well mean that we are not watching human beings play football and instead watching a bunch of robots play football who are under instructions 24/7, which isn't the case, at least when it comes to a penalty shoot-out, at least when the manager isn't Van Gaal.

I am not against praising the usage of technology or data, but what I am saying is that, while they might have the upper hand in some cases, the guessing game remains, at least when it comes to penalties. Who is in charge of the instincts is a matter of choice not ability.

You may want to check on your history. They've been using data for nearly a century. Rudimentary at first - but as soon as they could work out how to signify data, managers have been using it to alter, adjust and adopt tactics.

To the matter at hand, Van Gaal is the ultimate control freak. There is no way they didn't prepare penalties at some stage of their preparations. The discussion got sidetracked over what possible methods or data they used or didn't use. The main points of the discussion were basically some people think Van Gaal threw caution to the wind and got lucky with his decision (and in the match thread, some were actively hoping it backfired on him). Then there are others, such as me, who are quite certain Van Gaal had planned for penalties, and that Krul was prepped for how Costa Rica's players took them. The mechanics of such are up for debate, but those who are refusing to give credit to Van Gaal for a great piece of preparation are people who don't understand Van Gaal. As someone who has been obsessed with Van Gaal, studied his coaching methods, and have managed to meet people who have either seen his work up close or have been around people who have, it doesn't make sense to say that Van Gaal took and instinctive gamble on Krul, and even less sense for Krul to be sent onto the field without any preparation notes regarding how Costa Rica's penalty takers normally acted. The form of that information is up for discussion, but people dismissing it as a possibility, and attributing the whole scenario to sheer dumb luck are way, way, way off target as far as I'm concerned.

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

To the matter at hand, Van Gaal is the ultimate control freak. There is no way they didn't prepare penalties at some stage of their preparations.

Correct.

[BabuYagu]

£15m would be heavenly. Over to you Big Sam.

It´s one of those weird transfers were he is worth nowhere near £15m to United but is probably worth that to West Ham. I expect the deal would be around the £10m mark with another £5m in incentives is they qualify for European competition.

Would Fellaini want to go to West Ham though? I would suspect no.

[Arcadian]

It was ballsy, it probably gave everyone pause for thought, and it deserves commending because it worked.

[PhaseOfPlay]

It was ballsy, it probably gave everyone pause for thought, and it deserves commending because it worked.

No surprise, where Van Gaal is concerned

[Latenight Surfer]

You may want to check on your history. They've been using data for nearly a century. Rudimentary at first - but as soon as they could work out how to signify data, managers have been using it to alter, adjust and adopt tactics.

To the matter at hand, Van Gaal is the ultimate control freak. There is no way they didn't prepare penalties at some stage of their preparations. The discussion got sidetracked over what possible methods or data they used or didn't use. The main points of the discussion were basically some people think Van Gaal threw caution to the wind and got lucky with his decision (and in the match thread, some were actively hoping it backfired on him). Then there are others, such as me, who are quite certain Van Gaal had planned for penalties, and that Krul was prepped for how Costa Rica's players took them. The mechanics of such are up for debate, but those who are refusing to give credit to Van Gaal for a great piece of preparation are people who don't understand Van Gaal. As someone who has been obsessed with Van Gaal, studied his coaching methods, and have managed to meet people who have either seen his work up close or have been around people who have, it doesn't make sense to say that Van Gaal took and instinctive gamble on Krul, and even less sense for Krul to be sent onto the field without any preparation notes regarding how Costa Rica's penalty takers normally acted. The form of that information is up for discussion, but people dismissing it as a possibility, and attributing the whole scenario to sheer dumb luck are way, way, way off target as far as I'm concerned.

 
1. I never said that data usage is a recent thing.

It was something which had to happen. It's just that now the tools used are different and provide much more detailed info and accuracy. But data usage has always existed and it's only natural to be curious about the numbers and probabilities related to your opponents and to work on it and thanks to some men who put their efforts into developing it and mixing it with science and tech. I might need a history lesson there in finding out who those great men were.

2. I never said that Van Gaal took an instinctive gamble on Krul.

No one would do something like that without a plan. But the plan was, along with the 'theory' that:

(a) Krul passed the memory test with flying colors- On which I completely agree with you, as that looks like the only meaningful possibility.

(b) Upon securing 'A' grade in the memory test and earning himself a candy, Krul also became the reason of confusion amongst the Costa Rica camp, which certainly helped the Dutch camp and Van Gaal's tactics. (I am sure he too might have noticed that).

3. While I hoped like many others here for Van Gaal's tactics to fail and his team to lose, doesn't mean that I will shy away from appreciating his brilliance and not give credit where it's due. I said and I still maintain that were it to go the other way, then there might not have been a Van Gaal wankfest going around every where about the genius he is. It doesn't need a win over Costa Rica over a carefully choreographed penalty shoot-out to confirm that he is a genius, he is one even if he were to lose this match.

But IMO, it is safe to say that no one would have talked about his strategy to crack the shoot-out exam were he to lose this match and it is all I have said earlier and I still maintain it. Not that you had anything against what I said, but just my two pennies worth, that's it.

Bottom-line: As you say that you know a lot of people who know him and therefore a closer look at the man, it would naturally wind-you up to see people choosing to disrespect him. If I were you I'd feel the same ( I understand that) and whether or not others would appreciate his genius if he weren't the United coach is not for me to decide and I don't want to either,  but if someone cannot not appreciate Aloysius Paulus Maria "Louis" van Gaal's brilliance it's totally his/her choice and I don't have any problem with it, not that you do but it appeared that you did, according to the data I got.   

[ElCapo]

I'm not sure who their fifth taker would have been but thymus fancy winning most shoot outs with those first four. Although Robben has been known to miss a couple of big ones I suppose!

http://i.imgur.com/o5BK2Fs.png

[dmorgan]

I think with Van Gaal in charge, Utd will do much better against the stronger teams but may struggle to put away some of the weaker sides.... Kind if opposite to the Moyes tenure

[EstonianRed]

He may become a total failure, but he's the bravest manager I have ever seen. He's the anti-Moyes.

this is what I agree more. He has balls and he doesnt give a fu*k. Moyes always looked behind his shoulder to see if everyone is pleased. Van Gaal is just looking straight and even if Krul hadn't save any of the pens, Van Gaal wouldn't come out to say that it was wrong etc. He surely has balls, but he still seems to struggle against lesser sides.

[Redknobprob]

Wow.  Manager of the tourney so far.   Great subs and recognises our Dirk as a reliable team player.   Man United will improve leaps and bounds with this guy, which is not that difficult considering their last manager.

[redtel]

He may become a total failure, but he's the bravest manager I have ever seen. He's the anti-Moyes.

This is going to be very clear next season.

Moyes was the safe pair of hands who would build on the championship winning team (11pts) and take them onto more honours. Despite never winning anything. He wouldn't rock the boat.

Van Gaal is going to sail through many storms. Rows will occur with players,management and our press.
He is a winner though and will take them back into contention. Can he improve a poor squad in 1 year?

Doubtful, but he will set them on the right course. Then it's a question of the club surviving the choppy seas all around.He has never stayed very long at one place.

[gordonchas]

In 2003 Accrington Stanley subbed their keeper in the last minute of a extra time in an F.A. Cup replay with Bournemouth. They won that shoot-out too.

Their manager was John Coleman, he's now manager of Sligo Rovers. Maybe United should have gone for him instead? Not only is he obviously a tactical genius but he's 10 years ahead of Van Gaal in his thinking.

[goalrushatgoodison]

Your contention is that if Holland studied Costa Rica's penalties, then Pinto would have guessed this, tried to double bluff Holland, but Holland triple bluffed Pinto, and because they won, we're only referring to their ability to scout. In other words, are you contending that Costa Rica also scouted Holland, but because they lost, we're assuming that they didn't?

Ah the old triple bluff. That ruse used to be very fashionable in football circles before been consigned to the tactical dustbin by the advent of the quadruple bluff.

It's good to see it making a comeback.