Topic: Harvey Elliott (Harvey Daniel James Elliott)

[PhaseOfPlay]

Had you more of a thinking xabi alonso than a power forward 

Nope - Winger/Wingback (in the days of 3-5-2 being a thing), didn't take fitness seriously at all, but was quite quick and could cross a ball/score a goal. But as I got older, my belief that technique was enough came back to bite me on the arse, and ended up playing Division Z pub league.

Which is probably why I'm obsessed with players being fit on my own teams

[Jon2lfc]

Most of the players I know who couldn't make the step up couldn't do it for two reasons - athleticism, and mentality. And they often go hand-in-hand. Mostly, they didn't have the speed to cope with the level up (even in pub leagues), or they didn't have the mentality to keep pushing through the initial failures, or to look after their body, or to do the demanding training. After those two, touch and game intelligence are the next two issues that hold players back. But having the first two qualities in abundance makes moving up much easier.

A good answer to a good question.

On the back of that, a question from me, if I may..

When I was younger I had bags of athleticism and a good mentality. I looked after my body (still do) and loved training (apart from the hard laps).
I also had game intelligence. And from a young age when all the other kids were sprinting forward wanting to be the next Ian Rush, I would hang back to guard against the counter etc. I became a semi-decent defender and keeper (when needed). My touch has never been that bad either.
But what I have lacked is confidence on the ball. I've always needed a second or two more on the ball to steady myself and look up before picking a pass. I've never been a defender that would just jink past an onrushing attacker. Partly because I feared if I get tackled here at the back then this attacker has a clear run on goal. Not good.

So, my question is: Did I have all the ingredients for a decent career in defence? What was I missing?



In other news... that Harvey Elliott is a good player aint he?

[PhaseOfPlay]

A good answer to a good question.

On the back of that, a question from me, if I may..

When I was younger I had bags of athleticism and a good mentality. I looked after my body (still do) and loved training (apart from the hard laps).
I also had game intelligence. And from a young age when all the other kids were sprinting forward wanting to be the next Ian Rush, I would hang back to guard against the counter etc. I became a semi-decent defender and keeper (when needed). My touch has never been that bad either.
But what I have lacked is confidence on the ball. I've always needed a second or two more on the ball to steady myself and look up before picking a pass. I've never been a defender that would just jink past an onrushing attacker. Partly because I feared if I get tackled here at the back then this attacker has a clear run on goal. Not good.

So, my question is: Did I have all the ingredients for a decent career in defence? What was I missing?

I've highlighted the main thing that probably held you back - speed of play. And all due respect, you probably had coaches who weren't able to see the "speed of play" part, or were interested in improving your decision-making (if you are British/Irish, that was a common thing for a long time).

To be at the top level (broadly speaking, i.e. the pro game), you have to be making decisions BEFORE the ball gets to you, so that you can play your options off your first touch.

Also, the lack of confidence on the ball is noticeable from the outside. It makes players look nervous, and coaches/managers tend to distrust nervous players, I think.

In other news... that Harvey Elliott is a good player aint he?

He's good for a certain level right now. Would like to see him play against better players, though, to see where he really is in his development.

[Jon2lfc]

I've highlighted the main thing that probably held you back - speed of play. And all due respect, you probably had coaches who weren't able to see the "speed of play" part, or were interested in improving your decision-making (if you are British/Irish, that was a common thing for a long time).

To be at the top level (broadly speaking, i.e. the pro game), you have to be making decisions BEFORE the ball gets to you, so that you can play your options off your first touch.

Also, the lack of confidence on the ball is noticeable from the outside. It makes players look nervous, and coaches/managers tend to distrust nervous players, I think.





He's good for a certain level right now. Would like to see him play against better players, though, to see where he really is in his development.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Appreciate it. And I believe you're right.
I do have positional play intelligence too. Just a bit slow when I do receive the ball in defence.
Weirdly (to me), my other strong position has been in midfield in 6 or 7 a side games where I've been dead centre on the pitch and received the ball from defence and then almost instantaneously released it to the wings, and then moved up with play always supporting and moving on from the centre. I don't know what this position is called. But it's almost like I'm the bat in that computer game Arkanoid just letting the other more creative players and ball bounce off me.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Appreciate it. And I believe you're right.
I do have positional play intelligence too. Just a bit slow when I do receive the ball in defence.
Weirdly (to me), my other strong position has been in midfield in 6 or 7 a side games where I've been dead centre on the pitch and received the ball from defence and then almost instantaneously released it to the wings, and then moved up with play always supporting and moving on from the centre. I don't know what this position is called. But it's almost like I'm the bat in that computer game Arkanoid just letting the other more creative players and ball bounce off me.

"Deep Lying Playmaker"?

The great thing about 5-a-side and 7-a-side is that it gives advantage to smart players rather than pure athletes, due to the restricted space to play in. Less running = more reliance on touch and thought. I was a WAY better 7v7 player in my older years than I was 11v11

Also, are you currently coaching? If not, get on it. You sound like you'd be great for developing players.

[Jon2lfc]

"Deep Lying Playmaker"?

The great thing about 5-a-side and 7-a-side is that it gives advantage to smart players rather than pure athletes, due to the restricted space to play in. Less running = more reliance on touch and thought. I was a WAY better 7v7 player in my older years than I was 11v11

Also, are you currently coaching? If not, get on it. You sound like you'd be great for developing players.

Deep Lying Playmaker? I'll take that!
Sounds a bit like a Pirlo or Xabi to me... but my long range passing has always been a little shite. My games more short give n goes or thru balls.

One thing that ALWAYS irritates me in 5/6/7 a side when I play is how all the guys I play with get the ball and then try to take too many touches and other players on....and eventually the ball is lost due to this!!!!
I always try to shout out to my team mates, "let the ball do the work!!" - and I applaud when we start playing passing triangles around the chasing opposition. Also at our age, you gotta be nuts to run around like the younger lads - don't fancy gassing after 5 mins and also snapping achilles and ACLs! (all high risk over 40 I've found..)

I've never thought of coaching to be honest. I've always thought you'd have to be a very, very good player in youth to be able to justify being a coach.
Especially at the low levels. My footy mind is more akin to thinking players I think. Not pub footy.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Deep Lying Playmaker? I'll take that!
Sounds a bit like a Pirlo or Xabi to me... but my long range passing has always been a little shite. My games more short give n goes or thru balls.

One thing that ALWAYS irritates me in 5/6/7 a side when I play is how all the guys I play with get the ball and then try to take too many touches and other players on....and eventually the ball is lost due to this!!!!
I always try to shout out to my team mates, "let the ball do the work!!" - and I applaud when we start playing passing triangles around the chasing opposition. Also at our age, you gotta be nuts to run around like the younger lads - don't fancy gassing after 5 mins and also snapping achilles and ACLs! (all high risk over 40 I've found..)

I've never thought of coaching to be honest. I've always thought you'd have to be a very, very good player in youth to be able to justify being a coach.
Especially at the low levels. My footy mind is more akin to thinking players I think. Not pub footy.

Nope - you need a brain for the game, and the ability to break it down for players into bitesize chunks and rebuild the picture for them.

If you can demo the techniques, that's the main thing as far as ability is concerned. It gives you credibility with players. Otherwise, your knowledge of the game, training methods (that's what coaching courses are for!), empathy with slow-developing players, and communication skills, are more important than you're ability to play high level footy.

[Sangria]

Given Wilshere's smoking habit, it's probably more likely he never had the mentality to REALLY make something of his talents.

What would you call the mentality of someone who modelled himself on Molby? Idiotic? Knows his limits?

[PhaseOfPlay]

What would you call the mentality of someone who modelled himself on Molby? Idiotic? Knows his limits?

Fat?

[Magix]

His sense for the game seems exceptional, giving him that extra yard of space by virtue of his decision making.

[JC the Messiah]

What would you call the mentality of someone who modelled himself on Molby? Idiotic? Knows his limits?

Molby, quite famously, didn't know his limits.

[Sangria]

Fat?

I wasn't actually, although I may have been for my lack of mobility. Modelling myself on Molby, or what I thought to be Molby, I was a dab hand at kicking the ball (with my strong foot anyway), so I can describe the technique of just about every kind of pass or shot. Unfortunately, I was useless at every other aspect of outfield football. A shit version of Charlie Adam. That was why I was more scathing than most about him, being more familiar than most with the uselessness of that type of player.

[CraigDS]

A shit version of Charlie Adam.

Your corners alone were worth 10p.

[Crosby Nick]

Your corners alone were worth 10p.

That was Aspas.

[Fordy]

Suspended for 14 days from football.

[CraigDS]

Suspended for 14 days from football.

Because of his hair?

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Have seen he called him a "f•cking m•ng". Considering his age, his quick contrition and his lack of social media reach, it seems a reasonable ban.

But I'd suggest mocking a teammate based on the colour of their skin, with a social media reach into the millions, would probably get a touch more.

[redgriffin73]

Because of his hair?

Extra 2 days added for the shaved eyebrows.

[Barneylfc∗]

Have seen he called him a "f•cking m•ng". Considering his age, his quick contrition and his lack of social media reach, it seems a reasonable ban.

But I'd suggest mocking a teammate based on the colour of their skin, with a social media reach into the millions, would probably get a touch more.

I wouldn't hold your breath to be honest. Attend a few educational cour$e$ is all I expect from that.

[Frank Becton]

Silly boy, can't be doing with Social Media, but pretty stupid thing to do given how many people have access to it now.

Klopp won't be too pleased either, bad publicity for the club when everything is going so well.

[Crosby Nick]

Silly boy, can't be doing with Social Media, but pretty stupid thing to do given how many people have access to it now.

Klopp won't be too pleased either, bad publicity for the club when everything is going so well.

Came from before he signed for us didn’t it? He’ll learn from it but don’t think it reflects badly on the club.

[Yorkykopite]

It's the 21st century equivalent of doing a 'Harvey Smith'. Inevitable really.

[Dim Glas]

Suspended for 14 days from football.

been nice if you could have added a link to explain why!

I presumed it was for something that happened recently.

[Circa1892]

He'll miss a couple of U23 games, gets a token fine and will do some community work. Seems proportionate. Not a particularly smart or nice thing for someone to do, but I'm sure we all said much worse at 15.

[tubby]

He'll miss a couple of U23 games, gets a token fine and will do some community work. Seems proportionate. Not a particularly smart or nice thing for someone to do, but I'm sure we all said much worse at 15.

Yup, fair punishment for what it was, he'll learn from it and the club made all the right moves here.

[RainbowFlick]

Could make the Arsenal League Cup squad, then?

[Andy82lfc]

Have seen he called him a "f•cking m•ng". Considering his age, his quick contrition and his lack of social media reach, it seems a reasonable ban.

But I'd suggest mocking a teammate based on the colour of their skin, with a social media reach into the millions, would probably get a touch more.

Well based on the FA boys club, there's no second guessing but yes, in the real world this as a barometer for new social media type indiscretions would mean Silva is in for a pretty lengthy ban.

[TepidT2O]

It's the 21st century equivalent of doing a 'Harvey Smith'. Inevitable really.

It’s the context that gets me.

He’s 16. 

I hear 16 year olds say similar (and far far worse) every day.  Nice kids too.

What message is this actually putting out from the FA??

[duvva 💅]

Could make the Arsenal League Cup squad, then?

Depends when the 14 days runs from. If they start it from next weekend after the Intl break then he wouldn’t be able to play. Has it been published when it runs from?

[CraigDS]

Depends when the 14 days runs from. If they start it from next weekend after the Intl break then he wouldn’t be able to play. Has it been published when it runs from?

Immediately, so he’s back well in time.

[Andy82lfc]

It’s the context that gets me.

He’s 16. 

I hear 16 year olds say similar (and far far worse) every day.  Nice kids too.

What message is this actually putting out from the FA??

To be fair I think it's quite a good message, don't mock disabled people if you are in the public eye or you'll get a ban. Think it sends out a good message to other kids too that saying things like that are not right.

[Smellytrabs]

It’s the context that gets me.

He’s 16. 

I hear 16 year olds say similar (and far far worse) every day.  Nice kids too.

What message is this actually putting out from the FA??

I get that lots of kids his age say stupid shit (and I certainly did) - but Harvey is in the public eye, and with the privilege that comes with being a professional footballer, so to comes the responsibility of being held to higher standards than other kids his age.

I think the ban is fine. The FA have taken a stance, and it doesn't disrupt anything too much. More than anything I hope somebody is having a word with the lad though and making him understand why what he said is not okay. Fines and bans are pointless unless we are also going to educate.

[Dim Glas]

I have no issue with him getting diciplined for it. It's just how long it took that gets me. The FA are such a badly run organisation.

[Kenny's Jacket]

What message is this actually putting out from the FA??

Its not difficult to grasp, the message is not to mock the disabled. Judging from the reaction on here , quite an important message too.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I get that lots of kids his age say stupid shit (and I certainly did) - but Harvey is in the public eye, and with the privilege that comes with being a professional footballer, so to comes the responsibility of being held to higher standards than other kids his age.

I think the ban is fine. The FA have taken a stance, and it doesn't disrupt anything too much. More than anything I hope somebody is having a word with the lad though and making him understand why what he said is not okay. Fines and bans are pointless unless we are also going to educate.

Thanks, really good post 

[Yorkykopite]

To be fair I think it's quite a good message, don't mock disabled people if you are in the public eye or you'll get a ban.

It's actually better than that. It's saying don't mock such people even in private. Even if you're a kid.

As for Harvey Smith, that was just prissy.

[TepidT2O]

I get that lots of kids his age say stupid shit (and I certainly did) - but Harvey is in the public eye, and with the privilege that comes with being a professional footballer, so to comes the responsibility of being held to higher standards than other kids his age.

I think the ban is fine. The FA have taken a stance, and it doesn't disrupt anything too much. More than anything I hope somebody is having a word with the lad though and making him understand why what he said is not okay. Fines and bans are pointless unless we are also going to educate.

He wasn’t in the public eye when this happened. He was a 15 year old who didn’t realise ‘person that I find irritating’ had anything to do with disabled people.

It’s a word that young people use and I’ve yet to find one who realised why it might be offensive until it was explained to them.

For me, and education program is all that’s needed here.

[TepidT2O]

Its not difficult to grasp, the message is not to mock the disabled. Judging from the reaction on here , quite an important message too.

?
Is anyone suggesting that mocking disabled people is ok? I haven’t seen any comments like that.

[daggerdoo]

The lad probably doesn't even know what the term person that I find irritating means/meant, so educating rather than harsh disciplinary action seems fairer to me. When I was that age I honestly thought it referred to someone who wasn't very quick in the head.

Anyone else think Klopp probably had a private word and that that should be the end of the mini saga after his apology statement? I prefer things get sorted in-house, even if the fa have to publicise the action we've taken to make sure he understands where he fucked up.

[Kenny's Jacket]

?
Is anyone suggesting that mocking disabled people is ok? I haven’t seen any comments like that.

I havent gone that far though have I.

You yourself have felt the need to ask what message is being sent based on the content that "nice" kids mock the disabled. That would suggest for me that we need to look at the situation.  I imagine in the 1950's nice landlords didnt want to rent to dogs, blacks and Irish. Thankfully we have moved on and now anyone holding such a view would be classed as a racist twat even at 16. With reagards to the disabled, weve still got some way to go it seems.