Author Topic: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.  (Read 22822 times)

Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2009, 06:56:45 pm »
Excellent post and well done for having the patience to writing it down because im frankly so pissed off with the reaction these last couple of days I wouldnt have wanted to think about it.

I think the media have a big part in this and fans are gullable enough to take in the rubbish that pundits spought without really considering the facts. Take for example Hoddle at the start of the Spuds game. He stated that he felt Spurs squad was stronger than ours particularly up front, but failed to realise that 2 of their 3 strikers were players sold by liverpool for being not up to the highest standard. This was indeed supported by keane missing 2 complete sitters and spurs having to rely on 2 defenders scoring.

I dispair generally in life about peoples lack of ability (or effort) to read and take in information and actually consider that it might be absolute rubbish or that it may actually fly in the face of clear evidence.

2 woppers on here recently:

Why cant rafa see what we can all see & Anyone noticed that Torres is having a few strops posts.


2 examples of the levels Liverpool fans have  to over the  the last 18 months yet I really thought that the run from Feb - May last season had eradicated this sort of ill considered shite. Clearly not.

I used to think that its not worth being concerned about. In the same way I as I used to laugh at the Daily Mail I used to laugh at these ridiculous posts and think that noone takes any notice.
Sadly like the mail people actually do! Just when the mail says that all asylum seekers get free cars when they arrive in Britain people go and vote BNP, people read posts like Shankslegends from yesterday and take it all in.
Its depressing beyond belief.

Is it any coincidence that during that great period Feb- May last season there was none of this durge being written on here and being transmitted to the terraces? Course not - reason was that as fans we were behind the team and team felt it. Never more did I feel it than Fulham away where the postivity was tangeable all match even when we were into stoppage time.


Our fans at the moment are probably as bigger obstacle to us winning the league as any opposition.

I think i will stay away from this forum for quite a while.

Offline eAyeAddio

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2009, 07:06:57 pm »

You know shanks' famous, famous 'football is a simple game, aye terribly simple' quote?

...............Did Shankly honestly see the game as very simple, with not all that much to it? It's just never quite tallied with the whole 'boot-room' thing for me - so I've been curious about that for bloody ages.   



For what it's worth, I remember that quote being loaded with sarcasm but mainly because of Shanks' repulsion of the "fancy-Dan" type of player which he so despised.

That quote should be taken along the lines of the answer given by the fat, American politician who, when questioned about world starvation, replied that the answer was to have everyone eat out.

Incidentally, Shanks wasn't really a part of the original boot room set-up, which was Bob Paisley's idea as a way for him, Joe and Ronnie Moran to keep out of the way of Shanks who would be entertaining the press after games at Anfield were over.

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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2009, 07:23:35 pm »
Thanks very much for that eAye - so it is a classic 'out of context' quote, but I got the wrong context...it's actually more like shanks responding to a, say, Quaresma type player? Which would make complete sense from my point of view. Also interesting point about the boot-room, again, thanks for that, much appreciated.
Agreed with most of that. I know the thing that really depresses me about the Spurs response it the sheer speed of it. That positive atmosphere at the end of last season took ages to build up - it's not like everyone was gloriously happy straight after the 4-1 mancs win, for example. It wasn't until more the chelsea/arsenal games that there was a consistently positive vibe, everyone looking forward etc.

Admittedly, close-season can't have helped, it's been very far indeed from ideal, but still. Pre-Spurs match it was still a general air of confidence - suddenly it seems our squad is totally toilet (even though it's actually the same numbers as last season, with Johnson gain arguably balancing the Alonso loss), and suddenly we're in severe trouble, while the mancs are just fine - even though their replacements, to me anyway, seem far more palpably inferior (Owen for Tevez? valencia for Ronaldo? Relative to that I feel we've strengthened...)

Also, our financial situation is being blared loudly and panic-edly (not unjustifiably so, the off pitch stuff is, to put it mildly, a bloody nightmare)...yet what's happened to the Manc's budget? There's has also been eaten. They also, despite a far greater income, cannot meet their interest payments, and given the collossal size of their debt they would seem far off to me. It's just typical that our situation is shouted loudly, thus spreading pessimism and fear - while I've not read anything regarding the even more disastrous situation our 'neighbors' are in. Just seems like a lot of it is the same old press spying an opportunity - justified or no - to get a good bunch of kickings in, and of course that adds to fans worries.

Oh well. I'm thankful we've got a game again so quickly - a very swift opportuinity to nip some of this shite in the bud, and erase a ghost from last season. I'm really glad it's Stoke as well for that precise reason, not least because you would hope we'll approach it with zero complacency and maximum motivation all round. The penalty turned down may just possibly put a bit of a spotlight on the Stoke ref too, which can only be a good thing because they absolutely will take any mileage (and then some) they are given in that respect.

Oh, and please keep posting SmallwoodRed - you don't do it that often but it's always worth reading!
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2009, 07:28:00 pm »
Go on Raul! Edit: Congrats on the 10,000 posts. :)

Great read that Seb, although there were a few spelling mistakes in there so I'm going to completely strike it from my mind. ;D

Don't know about the superfan thing, and don't know about the need for us to always figure out his reasons and accept them (for example I can't get my head around why we don't threaten at corners) but I do agree it's best in life to try and wank for a mile in the other man's shoes. See? One spelling mistake leads to a sticky situation. :)

All in all though, as I'm locked out of my flat and waiting for the Celtic game to start, it was a compelling read. You're the Bruce Banner of RAWK. You're one to watch when you're angry. :wellin
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 07:59:36 pm by royhendo »

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2009, 07:34:52 pm »
Can I just say this is one of the finest posts I have ever read on here and would propose it be stickied, though I am fearful that my reaction may possibly be a knee jerk one.

Suffice it to say I agree with almost everything posted (bar Babel, he's clearly a striker, you tool) but there are two points I would like to add.

1] wriggle room: I think while you outline some excellent points you are inadvertently raising the bar to an almost unattainable level for the majority of posters. Forums are the place where ill-thought out ideas can be sounded out, discussed and rejected or accepted. Understanding Rafa is one thing, but there is a danger of slipping into a comfort zone and not being critical enough of the team and management. Online forums are, by their very nature, hotbeds of discussion and while often frustrating, to limit it to too great an extent is to remove whats best about it.

2] 442. Ahhh, 442, the old reliable. As an Irishman I cannot understand the English obsession with one particular system of play. My interpretation is that for many English people and the media in particular 1966 was the zenith of footballing excellence (despite the evidence to the contrary) and will always be used as a guide to the rights and wrongs of the game. The result is that as a system it has become an ideal for most English persons, rather than one alternative amongst a myriad of many.

The thing is, however, I feel you need to be explicit in what you interpret 442 to mean. There are many varieties of the system, but only one that dominates the English psyche, namely a flat back 4, a flat midfield with two centre mids side by side supported by widemen. Meanwhile up front is the traditional 'Little and Large'. This differs greatly to 442s with a diamond midfield, or a sweeper, or a front and back top two etc. I would almost label the former 442 described above as the 'English 442' to distinguish its hidebound form from more sophisticated, fluid versions.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2009, 07:45:01 pm »
You seem to have... a woman's brain



;D

Offline historyrepeatsitself

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2009, 07:45:58 pm »
Results comparison are exactly the same - two one defeat to spurs away- get a win tomorrow and we are two points up on last year.

ever the optimist that I am

Exactly
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Offline BCCC

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2009, 07:51:44 pm »
Where abouts are you??

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Offline macca888

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2009, 07:52:09 pm »
Trans-gender, actually. In that I transcend gender itself. It's beneath me, the whole thing, given my staggering intellectual capacity. Gender is something for plebs like you to be bound by - so no surprise to see you ignorantly flinging the term 'tranny' about. You fucking queer. ;)

:lmao  Sorry, it was a knee-jerk reaction while I'm on my staycation   :P
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Offline Pr0n

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2009, 08:03:09 pm »
1] wriggle room: I think while you outline some excellent points you are inadvertently raising the bar to an almost unattainable level for the majority of posters. Forums are the place where ill-thought out ideas can be sounded out, discussed and rejected or accepted. Understanding Rafa is one thing, but there is a danger of slipping into a comfort zone and not being critical enough of the team and management. Online forums are, by their very nature, hotbeds of discussion and while often frustrating, to limit it to too great an extent is to remove whats best about it.

That's a good point.. I guess the idea of discussing football is not to make it the perfect discussion, where everybody have perfected their terminology and knowledge about the game.. It would be pretty boring. And it would be all too perfect, which brings me to the next thing - nobody's perfect. Except vociferous better-knowing supporters without so much as a hint of self-critique. That's the other instance which makes discussion rather pointless..

The joys are in the flows of the ups and downs and questions and possible answers that we think we know until we realise we don't know and then get dissapointed and happy again.

So I guess we should have learned by now, the tides of football - not to be brought onto the brink of destruction each time there is an unpleasantness. But it seems to be getting worse, if I'm going back to the general.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2009, 08:18:40 pm »
:lmao  Sorry, it was a knee-jerk reaction while I'm on my staycation   :P
That's ok then. I should probably learn to chillax more, especially while flattering to deceive.

;D
:lmao
Can I just say this is one of the finest posts I have ever read on here and would propose it be stickied, though I am fearful that my reaction may possibly be a knee jerk one.

Suffice it to say I agree with almost everything posted (bar Babel, he's clearly a striker, you tool) but there are two points I would like to add.

1] wriggle room: I think while you outline some excellent points you are inadvertently raising the bar to an almost unattainable level for the majority of posters. Forums are the place where ill-thought out ideas can be sounded out, discussed and rejected or accepted. Understanding Rafa is one thing, but there is a danger of slipping into a comfort zone and not being critical enough of the team and management. Online forums are, by their very nature, hotbeds of discussion and while often frustrating, to limit it to too great an extent is to remove whats best about it.

2] 442. Ahhh, 442, the old reliable. As an Irishman I cannot understand the English obsession with one particular system of play. My interpretation is that for many English people and the media in particular 1966 was the zenith of footballing excellence (despite the evidence to the contrary) and will always be used as a guide to the rights and wrongs of the game. The result is that as a system it has become an ideal for most English persons, rather than one alternative amongst a myriad of many.

The thing is, however, I feel you need to be explicit in what you interpret 442 to mean. There are many varieties of the system, but only one that dominates the English psyche, namely a flat back 4, a flat midfield with two centre mids side by side supported by widemen. Meanwhile up front is the traditional 'Little and Large'. This differs greatly to 442s with a diamond midfield, or a sweeper, or a front and back top two etc. I would almost label the former 442 described above as the 'English 442' to distinguish its hidebound form from more sophisticated, fluid versions.
Thanks Donkey, and a very interesting post that:

1)I see your point. Indeed, a lot of this article was more observational than a kind of 'I shall lead you into the land of no cockneys, stepneys or jerked-knees. Mine will be a knee less future of flexibility, possibility and sheer joy in abundance, and you shall all be my minions. Now bow down (but certainly don't kneel for that is forbidden) before me. Oh, and send me your money. Cash stuffed in envelope sent to my home address would be fine.

In short, I wouldn't want all knee-jerkiness to be erased, because you're right that a lot of it just comes from passion and love for the game, and that there also needs to be avenues for the downside of that passion to be vented - which as you rightly point out is surely one of the main reasons for forums.

I guess, if I had a wish or a solution, it would simply be that we get more of the other to balance it, especially from the national media. I don't know why I torture myself by buying the Guardian (well I do actually, it's because I've read the alternatives and despite the superior sports coverage I will not buy Murdoch's times...even without the Boycott the thought of lining his pockets makes me feel ill), but when that paper is the nearest thing we have to quality journalism in this country I certainly find it very depressing that their football coverage is superior to the tabloids only in terms of the quality of writing. Despite some shining exceptions that keep me hooked (said and done, the David James and Saturday comedy columns, occasion great one-off pieces or magasine articles plus the very occasional Wilson piece) it's basically the same player-centric, tactic and analysis free zone of hype driven shite - and they're the only ones who don't have a strict commercial remit. I'd completely let them off for their manc-loving ways if it weren't for that.

I just wish the likes of James Richardson and Pleat didn't seem to be systematically shoved off air in favour of loud-mouth, ignorant twats like Merson and the like. I just wish there were one football phone in show that ocassionally talked about football instead of manufactured contoversy. More of that in the media and you'd see more of it here - then I'd be a very happy man.

In that sense it strikes me as a lot like Usher on TLW, in that fans do take something of a lead from the respected media source. The good things about that site (EG the dedication to youth football) reflect his good aspects, the bad things (for example the constant reflex-Lucas bashing) can also be pretty much traced to stuff he's said on the blog, and it works like that on a far larger scale in the national media.

In short, the avenues for knee-jerk spleen venting are plentiful and well serviced...the avenues for actually talking seriously and in depth about the game of football are nigh on non-existent, and I honestly don't think it would take much for the standard to go up enourmously.

On a side note, given the above I must say it staggers me how much vitriol and abuse Ballague seems to attract. Certainly he comes across as somewhat arrogant and a little slimy (but then again so do almost all journos and tv types) but he is one of the very, very, very few who will talk tactics, back up their thoughts and reference them to other examples, rather than just sticking to the stereotype bandwagon du jour. I personally wish there were more like him.

2) Bang on about the 4-4-2, it's a very fair point. I do mean, exactly as you describe, the 'English' 4-4-2.

I also agree that it does stem a lot from that '66 mentality, the huge and continuing irony of which is that our one shining success is also one of the rare, golden examples of a genuinely innovative manager who actually dared to fly in the face of convention and received wisdom, precisely by seeing some of the great limitations of the classic flat 3 banded 4-4-2. '66 has been stuck in our minds indelibly, sadly it's completely the wrong lessons which have stuck.

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Offline WesternRed

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2009, 09:44:52 pm »
Fantastic OP and thread - very, very enjoyable.  Thank you HBHR & co!
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Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2009, 09:45:54 pm »

1) I don't know why I torture myself by buying the Guardian (well I do actually, it's because I've read the alternatives and despite the superior sports coverage I will not buy Murdoch's times...even without the Boycott the thought of lining his pockets makes me feel ill), but when that paper is the nearest thing we have to quality journalism in this country I certainly find it very depressing that their football coverage is superior to the tabloids only in terms of the quality of writing.

2) Bang on about the 4-4-2, it's a very fair point. I do mean, exactly as you describe, the 'English' 4-4-2.


1] Spot on the Guardian, at times it feels like mutton dressed up as lamb. I depend on the Guardian for much of the coverage, because, as you say, the alternatives are so poor. Of course, its difficult for papers to have the same depth of knowledge about our club as we do, considering they have so many clubs to pay attention to.

Nonetheless, the impression I get from Guardian (and this is true for many papers) is that their priorities are as follows 1] England 2] Man United. The result is the bizarre situation of wanting to acclaim English players at the same time as lambasting Liverpool, Arsenal etc. The compromise is a mishmash of opinions where the likes of Gerrard are eulogized and foreign players lambasted in his stead. How many reports have you seen that follows this format; Liverpool insipid, Gerrard Motm, Lucas/Babel semi-retarded, Benitez fat?

Mind you, its still better than the BBC which basically asks cranks and wind up merchants to ring up and form their opinions for them. This gives rise to idiots like Ian Wright (knows no opposition player and spends the entire game cheerleading Shaun) and Alan Green (moral guardian for a nation and a complete fool).

2] Just to clarify, I have no objection the English 442, its an effective system in the right circumstances. The real flaw as far as I can see is that players/managers/media observers have prescribed so heavily to it over 40 years that English players have become over-specialized and incapable of playing in an alternative system.

In fact, English players have reached such a degree of specialization that they can't even play outside their own position. Could you imagine Terry stepping up into midfield, Lampard to the wing or Defoe to the middle? One of the reasons that I believe Gerrard struggles at international level is that he is a maverick player that does not fit neatly into the English system. Benitez got the best out of him (and arguably has built a side around his unique talents) by placing him a role that allows him explode to great effect without compromising the team structure. However, he is an exception to the norm, the majority of English players have been straitjacketed into a particular role and are incapable of operating outside of it. This I see as a consequence of the obsession with all things English 442
 
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Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2009, 10:12:05 pm »
1] Spot on the Guardian, at times it feels like mutton dressed up as lamb. I depend on the Guardian for much of the coverage, because, as you say, the alternatives are so poor. Of course, its difficult for papers to have the same depth of knowledge about our club as we do, considering they have so many clubs to pay attention to.

Nonetheless, the impression I get from Guardian (and this is true for many papers) is that their priorities are as follows 1] England 2] Man United. The result is the bizarre situation of wanting to acclaim English players at the same time as lambasting Liverpool, Arsenal etc. The compromise is a mishmash of opinions where the likes of Gerrard are eulogized and foreign players lambasted in his stead. How many reports have you seen that follows this format; Liverpool insipid, Gerrard Motm, Lucas/Babel semi-retarded, Benitez fat?

Mind you, its still better than the BBC which basically asks cranks and wind up merchants to ring up and form their opinions for them. This gives rise to idiots like Ian Wright (knows no opposition player and spends the entire game cheerleading Shaun) and Alan Green (moral guardian for a nation and a complete fool).

2] Just to clarify, I have no objection the English 442, its an effective system in the right circumstances. The real flaw as far as I can see is that players/managers/media observers have prescribed so heavily to it over 40 years that English players have become over-specialized and incapable of playing in an alternative system.

In fact, English players have reached such a degree of specialization that they can't even play outside their own position. Could you imagine Terry stepping up into midfield, Lampard to the wing or Defoe to the middle? One of the reasons that I believe Gerrard struggles at international level is that he is a maverick player that does not fit neatly into the English system. Benitez got the best out of him (and arguably has built a side around his unique talents) by placing him a role that allows him explode to great effect without compromising the team structure. However, he is an exception to the norm, the majority of English players have been straitjacketed into a particular role and are incapable of operating outside of it. This I see as a consequence of the obsession with all things English 442
 

Jesus - thats one of the most perceptive posts Ive read in a long time.

Spot on about the Guardian and your point about Gerrard is nail on the head.
I think this is the reason that other great players have failed at international level such as Le Tissier and Hoddle and even Gascoigne to an extent (he didnt fail but was often difficult to accomodate).

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2009, 10:28:35 pm »
1) Clearly you do indeed read the Guardian/Observer. That's the general approach down to a tee. In particular the manc cheerleading thing has led to some absolutely stunning examples of dogshit reporting over the last few years:

 - Ronaldo behaved like an absolutely despicable shitrag during the Munich anniversary. Utterly disrespectful - the kind of behaviour that would have instantly made him a persona non grata with (types through gritted teeth) the core Utd support, who really aren't too different to ours. They sat on the story until Ronaldo started acting up towards the end of the season, and even then only released it as a tiny little column, despite it being a huge story that would have generated massive, massive interest. It would also, however, have turned the fans against their key player, and built an atmosphere of pressure from other fans, which is my guess as to why they didn't release it. (Their claim was that they didn't want to undermine the Munich stuff, in which case why not release it the day after?) Fans have a right to know that kind of stuff, in my view it's an abdication of their duty as journalists, especially guardian ones, to sit on that kind of story.

- The paper on the whole has been critical of rotation for ages, and has beaten Rafa with that stick time, time and time again. Towards the end of last season, when Fergies rotation had become so commonplace and regular that even the most whopperish fan couldn't ignore it anymore it's suddenly being used as an example of his great adaptability and wisdom, testament to their strength in depth, cue criticisms of Liverpool's lack of strength in depth in comparison, where before 11 v 11 and 'best team' was what really mattered. Similarly, Liverpool are far too reliant on G&T which will be our undoing, while at the same time the lack of reliance on individuals is where Man Utd excel, while at the same time nothing matters more to the Guardian then Rooney always being played in the centre. The idea that he might actually be as good/better in certain games down the left doesn't even get close to being mentioned.

- Mr Alex Ferguson's revertion (which I suspect will be his undoing) to a more conventional 4-4-2 this season is being painted as a change from 'his preferred' 4-2-3-1 system. I really couldn't believe that. HIS system you say? You mean the one that Queiroz talked him into, had been one of the pioneers of, and had the whole of Old Trafford ready to shoot him for getting Mr Alex Ferguson to start adapting to it, which he only did when Rafa and Jose pulled up on these shores and showed just how limited the 4-4-2 can really be - especially in Europe, where Mr Alex Ferguson's approach is now indistinguishable from ours in Europe in Rafa's first season (where conversely we have evlved into a team that dominates Euro games home and away, as opposed to going safety first and relying on one goal, preferably got away on the break, to win ties?) Yet lo and behold...the season Queiroz leaves Mr Alex Ferguson has a total brainfart, completely reverts to type in the CL final, lobbing strikers on like confetti in a match where they hardly touched the ball in midfield, suddenly bringing glorious memories back to mind of Mr Alex Ferguson's Utd of old getting consistently humiliated by decent continental sides with a bit of nous and ability to keep possession...

- The whole 'Rafa Rant' thing is still being repeated ad nauseum. Rafa is constantly painted (as everywhere else) as one of the league's biggest whingers and moaners, where in fact he is one of the very best I've ever seen in terms of not making excuses for performances. See coverage of the penalty shouts at Spurs, it's all about 'Rafa's whinging won't distract from his lack of strength in depth. He should acknowledge the poor performance and that Spurs were better on the day'. Incredibly, the fact that Rafa did indeed point out that our performance was shite, his reasons for it being shite, and that Spurs did deserve the win seems to have completely escaped them - along with the fact that both were very solid penalty shouts. The first was verging on a stonewall penno, the second, having seen it a few times, was definitely in the 'seen them given' category - especially because, all though his hand was covering his body - there is no doubt that he did move his body (and hence the hand on it) towards the ball. It was a much better shout than several of Chelsea's in last seasons CL, which the whole British media are still painting as the biggest injustice since the Guilford 4, even though Barca had by far the clearest penno shout of all in that tie denied in the first leg.

Many others but those spring to mind immediately, but as you say the alternative is non-existant (I mean, say, Reade in the mirror is class and always worth reading, but no way am I going to pay for the rest of that absolute shite of a paper just to get his occasional columns.)

2) Yes, spot on. Indeed, I think 4-4-2's become a more useful option than it has been in a while, because very few play a 5-3-2 regularly anymore (which was always chiefly effective against more traditional 4-4-2 type set ups), and because it can be a very useful way of countering the flooded midfields that are so regular these days. Stoke and Fulham are great examples in very different ways - Stoke bypass midfield and have two burly strong men up top, one who can run the channels and the other who can dominate in the air and hold it, and they are very strong at crosses, hence also two more traditional wingers - they are very, very Watford. Fulham are a lot, lot more patient and tend to keep the ball, but from midfield to strikers against bigger teams they have two quick strikers who will run the channels, the ball gets played very quickly through midfield into those channels, which then allows them to build possession again from that platform higher up the pitch. Both teams impressed me a lot (in different ways) when we played them last season.

Completely agree with the 'stuck' mentality and the consequences on players - indeed I'm convinced that Rafa always intended to play 4-2-3-1, but actually had to adapt and play a more traditional 4-4-2 for a long while because the players he inherited, including (crucially) his star man Gerrard, simply couldn't get their head around another way quickly enough - and we've never been free enough from the pressure to get into the top 4 for Rafa to have a real 'results almost don't matter' transitional season.

As a companion to the inflexibility of players you will also note that any failing in an english performance, if not put down to a laughable perception of a lack of 'passion' 'pride' or 'fight' (the only three things that I can honestly say I've never felt an England side has lacked) will generally be put down to something 4-4-2 related - the lack of a 'chalk on the boots' winger for example, or the lack of a 'genuine poacher'. No other nation would have their equivalent of Michael Owen being touted so strongly still, despite his obvious limitations and horrible last few seasons.

Cappello is currently, and rightly, being hailed as a great coach. Of course, it's not because he's managed to actually get England playing with some patience, coherence and willingness to actually keep hold of the bloody ball - nope. It's because he's recognised the divine truth of King Rooney being the answer to all life's problems - but only if he's played in the centre.

Conversely, Gerrard will periodically be brought up as 'wasted' on the left, or something, it never seems to be noticed that what Cappello has been very clever at is that realising that it almost doesn't matter who out of Gerrard and Rooney starts on the left. As long as they play next to each other they both offer very useful pluses in both positions, and are both willing and able to swap positions during the match. From the way the press describe it, you would sometimes thing Gerrard is actually tied to the byeline where Rooney stays 10 metres behind the striker with 10 metres to each player either side of him at all times. No one seems to have noticed that Lampard, who can't play as a holding midfielder and needs to be given the freedom to attack and plays best in a role similar to Rooneys, is in fact playing very solidly as more of an Alonso-style holding playmaker.

As for what you're saying - Defoe is the perfect, perfect example, as is Agbonlahor (in a different way). Defoe because all he can do is play on the shoulder and rely on his pace - he is Owen mark 2. A very useful option, but that's all he'll ever be - which is exactly why that's all Cappello's using him as. He's scoring because Cappello has the brains to appreciate how limited he is, not because he's suddenly become a great striker. Of course, Defoe is massively talented, and under someone like Rafa might have developed into a genuine monster of a player, because Rafa probably would have tried him out wide, forced him to work on his hold up play etc etc etc. Instead he's spent most of his career under 'Arry, therefore playing on the shoulder is all he has, or will, ever do, and for all his talent once his pace goes that will be the death-knell to his top flight career. Good old 'Arry.

Agbonlahor, on the other hand, seems to me to suffer from exactly the 'maverick' problem you describe for Gerrard. He doesn't neatly fit into one particular role, so the Villa fans have apparently turned on one of their brightest talents in years to the extent that he is now officially 'shite'. Really, it seems to me that the problem is more that, despite years of working with him, O'Neill has never challenged him to keep working on those aspects of his game that don't involve pace. Indeed, he's a player who's stock I'm quietly hoping will fall so low that Rafa may become interested, because again I think under Rafa he could develop into a class player. Instead of being a less effective Defoe, i could see Rafa turning him into a player who could be brilliant in any one of the '3' positions in a 4-3-3 (or as a wide man and occasional strike option in our 4-2-3-1), because he works hard, would (I think) track back willingly and effectively, has a lot of talent at his disposal, and could well (or could well have been) taught to give and go and find and use space a lot more effectively than he does. For all my issues with Wenger, from and England perspective (because unfortunately I am an England fan too, being OOT can do that to a Liverpool fan :P) I'm very thankful he's got Walcott, because someone like 'Arry would simply have turned him into Defoe Mark 2 (or Owen mark 3). While Wenger will never seriously develop his defensive game as Rafa would, at least he'll learn passing and movement, and how to play between and through the lines.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 10:35:21 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline Marko B

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2009, 12:11:37 am »
One of the best threads I have had the pleasure of reading in a long time.

I fully agree with the original post - the sad thing is that the subjects of that post will most likely either not take the time to read it, or read it and still continue on in blissful ignorance thinking that they do know it all.

I particularly enjoy the way you promote the attitude of trying (trying being the key word on many occassions) to look at the bigger picture from the perspective of the manager. You can't reduce an entire club, comprising of real individuals, playing in x amount of games, with y considerations along the way into such a simple equation such as we should have played x formation or Yossi should have played rather than Babel - it doesn't work like that. Although the maxim that you take one game at a time does have some merit the bigger picture is what counts.

Take the selection of Babel for instance - lambasted by many as being poor - I personally think it was the wrong decision and I dare say in hindsight Rafa may believe the same but then again how are we to know what would have happened? We can only try to understand the reasoning behind Rafa in making the selection, whether it be injury to Yossi, lack of full match fitness, shopfronting Babel, Babel having a stonking week at training, or simply he being a better tactical fit, the list goes on but to assume that there were no real reasons and no bigger picture at stake would be an insult to the intelligence of our coaching staff and a sign of ingnorance on the behalf of us as fans.

In mentioning this I'm attempting to provide an example, certainly there are many more out there, of how us as fans when we attempt to simplify situations without having a full knowledge of the circumstances will generally end up disappointed with unsatisfactory explanations for things. Of course if Rafa's selction of Babel was procured by tossing a coin after a few shots of whiskey we'd have a right to blast the decision but I think we all know there was far far more behind the selection than that and all we can do is attempt to understand what those considerations may be and the bigger picture itself rather than focus on such a narrow issue.


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Offline Cambo

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2009, 02:50:01 am »
Thanks very much hesbighesred for your well written and extremely well thought-out article. Hopefully you would take it being described as "Tomkins-esque" as a compliment, although with more of a finger on the fans' pulse and a fuller spectrum (not relentlessly positive).

A lot of points rang true for me, would like to expand on a couple.

1. The shallow, gupping goldfish nature of the English media is astounding, and as you say, desperately short of tactical analysis, particularly around shapes, systems and patterns of play. Having arrived in England only a year ago, and initially loving being able to immerse myself in the saturated media coverage, I am gradually more and more appalled at the aping, sniping, xenophobic, short-termist tripe pervading even now the "reputable" papers. And sadly, through into the fans. However, the tendency to criticise, not analyse, or work towards solutions, is also prevalent in other parts of British society (the political farce of the last 2 years anyone?). Which leads me to...

2. The ignorance/arrogance mentality. It really does astound that people genuinely believe they may know better than Rafa, who has worked day in, day out with top level players & staff for 20 odd years. Not only that, but even a step further, I have a problem with fans taking possession of "our right" or "we deserve" to win the League. Whilst the fans are of course the lifeblood of the club (if no longer the sole wage-provider), I cannot get my head around how someone who spends, say, a small (to moderate) percentage of their waking life thinking about/watching Liverpool "deserves" on-field success more than those working tirelessly within the club.

It remains a priviledge to be a Liverpool supporter, and lets remind ourselves of what the word 'supporting' actually means.

Offline opsteo

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #98 on: August 19, 2009, 03:31:47 am »
... The paper on the whole has been critical of rotation for ages, and has beaten Rafa with that stick time, time and time again. Towards the end of last season, when Fergies rotation had become so commonplace and regular that even the most whopperish fan couldn't ignore it anymore it's suddenly being used as an example of his great adaptability and wisdom, testament to their strength in depth, cue criticisms of Liverpool's lack of strength in depth in comparison, where before 11 v 11 and 'best team' was what really mattered. Similarly, Liverpool are far too reliant on G&T which will be our undoing, while at the same time the lack of reliance on individuals is where Man Utd excel, while at the same time nothing matters more to the Guardian then Rooney always being played in the centre. The idea that he might actually be as good/better in certain games down the left doesn't even get close to being mentioned.
...... (trying to save space not quote entire articel)

Agbonlahor, on the other hand, seems to me to suffer from exactly the 'maverick' problem you describe for Gerrard. He doesn't neatly fit into one particular role, so the Villa fans have apparently turned on one of their brightest talents in years to the extent that he is now officially 'shite'. Really, it seems to me that the problem is more that, despite years of working with him, O'Neill has never challenged him to keep working on those aspects of his game that don't involve pace. Indeed, he's a player who's stock I'm quietly hoping will fall so low that Rafa may become interested, because again I think under Rafa he could develop into a class player. Instead of being a less effective Defoe, i could see Rafa turning him into a player who could be brilliant in any one of the '3' positions in a 4-3-3 (or as a wide man and occasional strike option in our 4-2-3-1), because he works hard, would (I think) track back willingly and effectively, has a lot of talent at his disposal, and could well (or could well have been) taught to give and go and find and use space a lot more effectively than he does. For all my issues with Wenger, from and England perspective (because unfortunately I am an England fan too, being OOT can do that to a Liverpool fan :P) I'm very thankful he's got Walcott, because someone like 'Arry would simply have turned him into Defoe Mark 2 (or Owen mark 3). While Wenger will never seriously develop his defensive game as Rafa would, at least he'll learn passing and movement, and how to play between and through the lines.

Thanks for a wonderful thread. You are definitely on a roll with great comments on knee-jerking and now even insightful analysis of Harry/Defoe/Agbonlahor etc.  You are churning out good analysis and logical arguments (without being repetitive) within relative short timespans between posts - this shows maturity and clearmindedness and I'm impressed.  I will make  it a point to read as many of your comments...Cheers.

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #100 on: August 19, 2009, 04:13:52 am »
1) Clearly you do indeed read the Guardian/Observer. ...

I think this will always happen as long as journos and editors have favorite teams, which so happens to be the Mancs and can only end if they stopped winning anything.

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2009, 05:39:17 am »
Very well written piece, hence the reason why I ignore the post match threads after mediocre/bad results or threads about 'illuminating the ignorant'.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #102 on: August 19, 2009, 08:27:22 am »
The in game threads are 1000x worse.  I resort to dry as dust Bbc text commentary when I can't watch a match instead of enduring a display of knee jerking that would make St Vitus envious.
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Offline Redondo

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #103 on: August 19, 2009, 09:52:09 am »
It really says a lot when the tread "Why is it us fans can see the problems but Rafa can't" gets 475 posts and 12,265 views

and you this thread gets 102 posts and 2,606 views.


Offline Uhoh AureliOs

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #104 on: August 19, 2009, 10:00:30 am »
It really says a lot when the tread "Why is it us fans can see the problems but Rafa can't" gets 475 posts and 12,265 views

and you this thread gets 102 posts and 2,606 views.



Maybe if we put "Rafa Out" on the end of the thread title more people might read it.

Offline JackBauer

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2009, 10:11:00 am »
HBHR, that post about the general shiteness of the Manc-loving Guardian and the English obsession with 4-4-2 is perhaps the best thing I've ever seen on here. Thank you.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2009, 10:26:56 am »
Where abouts are you??



I think I am at depressing stage, and I keep going back to shock then to depressing again, dont see too much optimism with the way things are going, not just about our current squad and the loss, but the overall picture doesnt look too good for me, Rafa must be burning inside as well, owners are not helping, we got players getting injured left right and centre, only have youth players as back up, owners not giving any help, happened to get injured player(who must be the one Rafa wanted).
The OP was great, must admit I had few of those thoughts and did few of those things, specially the blame one :)
but normally I move on , in those situations, but what I am knee-jerking is about bit different matter, overall concern about the club, and what those yanks are doing to it, the sponsors, how we and the players, manager has to suffer because of them, dont know all the details but after reading few detaiiled posts and articles it is frustrating, hope its just me and everything will be ok, lets smash Stoke first!
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2009, 10:43:06 am »
The first 4 replies to this post have confused me. Are they examples of knee jerk responses? Having actually read the post, I feel they have blatantly and totally missed the whole point of the post. The fact that the first reply seems to ignore the content of the OP, and then the next 3 replies address that reply - rather than the excellently written OP - is nothing short of embarrassing.

Anyway, it's an excellent post and I would love the knee-jerkers to read it and learn something from it. But it's obvious that they either won't read it, or they won't understand it. And even if they do, they won't take any notice of it.

Hesbighesred - What I would like you to address is ShanksLegend's justification of his views. He claimed that other matchgoers also felt the same way he did

I began to question ShanksLegend's views when I was reading his post, but I was horrified to read that the WHOLE away end agreed with him. Is he exagerrating? Are ALL the away end wrong? Are they all kneejerkers?

I fear you have simply missed my tongue in cheekiness style reply,
From his comments further down the thread, I'm quite sure Hesgighesred realised I was pulling the old chain!

It was one of the last posts I had read that day and had had my fill of reading knee jerk posts.
I thought it was ironic that following such a detailed and well written post some forum users had added such pointless comments as a reply.
I then felt my Devil horns growing and fell into the trap of leaving an utterly pointless reply myself, not as an insult to the OP but as a reaction to the rubbish posted shortly after.
Wrong of me perhaps but it's done now
...or is this just a knee jerk reaction to someones comments?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 10:49:37 am by TheVoiceOfRiise »
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Offline opsteo

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2009, 11:06:36 am »
It really says a lot when the tread "Why is it us fans can see the problems but Rafa can't" gets 475 posts and 12,265 views

and you this thread gets 102 posts and 2,606 views.



Unfortunately,  the knee-jerkers instinctively know just who they are and avoided this thread like the plague.  It is easier to brain-dump whatever in the mind (or rather the gut) without caring about making a proper analysis,  writing coherently, forming logical arguments and, heaven forbids, providing meaningful statistics to support the opinion made.

Offline opsteo

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2009, 11:26:27 am »

It seems that there is a general outcry against knee-jerkers:

http://tomkins-blogs.typepad.com/paul_tomkins_blog/2009/08/knee-jerk-time.html

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2009, 11:36:21 am »
This is great thread, so many quality posts. :wellin

Undoubtedly it will be moved to 'opinion' soon, and then go the same way as the level 3 thread, which i never started and don't dare touching now because of the 180+ page monster it has become :-\

« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 11:37:56 am by redbyrdz »
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Offline toomanysteves

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2009, 01:36:45 pm »
The fact that supposedly serious pundits/experts think fit to pass comments dooming us to failure after one match tells you all you need to know about them. Simply a case of paper not refusing ink. Unfortunately too many fans take these comments as gospel and apply no critical thought to them whatsoever.

This post was a delight to read. I just hope that whatever happens tonight the posters in the post match thread have a read of this first before spouting more "we're doomed" or "we will be champions".

Last season, after the first match, when Man Utd dropped points to Newcastle many "experts" had Utd as a sinking ship!
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Offline vicgill

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2009, 01:48:08 pm »
This quote is taken from a post by HRHB
"Actually, can any older fans on the board shed some light on something for me:

You know shanks' famous, famous 'football is a simple game, aye terribly simple' quote?

It's always seemed to me that that's one of the great quotes taken totally out of context. It's that last 'terribly simple' bit to me - I've always imagined Shanks saying it with a bit of grit in his voice, that basically he was saying 'yes, it seems simple to you lot, but trust me - there's plenty to it.' IE I've always wondered if he wasn't saying that sarcastically...but having never heard him say it I just don't know. I'm honestly curious - can anyone shed some light on that? Was he being sarcastic, basically having a sly pop at the person asking him, or was it totally genuine at face value? Did Shankly honestly see the game as very simple, with not all that much to it? It's just never quite tallied with the whole 'boot-room' thing for me - so I've been curious about that for bloody ages."
 
I hope I can satisfy your curiosity, Mr Shankly actually said that to me during a training session at Melwood. That is why I use it as my personal text
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Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #113 on: August 19, 2009, 01:51:22 pm »

As a companion to the inflexibility of players you will also note that any failing in an english performance, if not put down to a laughable perception of a lack of 'passion' 'pride' or 'fight' (the only three things that I can honestly say I've never felt an England side has lacked) will generally be put down to something 4-4-2 related - the lack of a 'chalk on the boots' winger for example, or the lack of a 'genuine poacher'. No other nation would have their equivalent of Michael Owen being touted so strongly still, despite his obvious limitations and horrible last few seasons.


All good points, but this one stands out for me. In the English game in particular there seems to be a complete lack of reflection on previous results and games. In its stead is the belief that shouting at players and degrading them will somehow improve their performance. This in turn translates itself to fans, who shout out abuse at a player in the mistaken belief this too will enhance performance. Perhaps in some cases it will, but as a panacea for all ills it falls short.

In recent years managers such as Wenger, Benitez, Allardyce even Ferguson have become more scientific about the game, measuring health, well-being and fitness of players, analysing their performances and suggesting improvements, but these are the exception to the norm. Most managers in the English game still take games on a case-by-case basis, believing that the loud shouting and banging the cross bar will elicit the best results.

This can be seen in the old guard who now populate punditry and media analysis. Peter Reid and his ilk, barely able to identify opposition players throwing in useful points like "he needs to give 110% and show some passion". Moronic. It always boils my blood when I hear about the 'hairdryer treatment'. is this the best and most constructive thing the supposed top manager in the world can come up with? A shouting match? Awful.

Simon Kupar has an interesting theory about this, specific to the English game. He argues that football in England is still dominated by a predominantly working class mindset that values grit over guile, eventhough the majority of fans are in fact middle class. ho goes one step further and suggests that middle-class players are discouraged from pursuing a football career, due to the working class, tough culture that surrounds it, denying the game a huge pool of potential players.

Uncharitably he suggests that those players that do play are not the brightest and lack game intelligence. This is harsh, but I do find it interesting that he believes, unlike on the continent, avenues of access for the middle class are narrower in the sport and the game in England suffers as a result.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #114 on: August 19, 2009, 02:01:15 pm »
Reaction to Liverpool loss blown out of proportion - it's a fact



Rafa Benitez, famously, likes facts. He keeps detailed lists of them in his pocket, for use on a variety of social occasions. He is most probably aware, then, of the old truism – first outlined by that noted philosopher, Homer Simpson – that you can prove anything with facts.

Take the fact of Liverpool’s opening day defeat to Tottenham. According to misspelled sports analysis firm Bettorlogic, losing at White Hart Lane has left Benitez’s side’s title dreams in tatters. Apparently, over the last six seasons, only two of the Big Four have ever lost on the opening day. Fact. Neither of those sides – Manchester United in 2004 and Liverpool a season previously – went on to win the league that year. Fact.

“Rafa Benitez’s side will have to quickly get their act together to stay in the hunt for the title,” intones Bettorlogic’s CEO Mike Falconer, in his company’s press release. “If it’s not already too late.”

To watch, listen to and read many of the obituaries drawn up in the name of Liverpool’s title challenge, even that bizarre extrapolation of a conclusion from arbitrary, coincidental statistics may be a mite optimistic.

To many, it is already far, far too late. Liverpool’s flat performance at White Hart Lane, it seems, has left them with just 37 games to claw back an all but unbridgeable three-point deficit on all their main rivals and nigh on extinguished their hopes of winning the league.

Rafa Benitez should not have sold Xabi Alonso, his only creative midfielder. Instead of wasting £40 million on Glen Johnson and Alberto Aquilani, he should have bolstered his squad, in case injury hits Fernando Torres or Steven Gerrard. Should that happen, Liverpool would struggle to qualify for the UEFA Cup, let alone the Champions League. All, after one game, facts.

It is doomsday punditry of the worst kind, and Benitez clearly has little time for it. Asked yesterday if he thought the critics had a point, the Spaniard genially enquired as to who the prime culprits were. Jamie Redknapp, for one, came the reply. A wry smile, a Hispanic shrug of the shoulders. “It’s easy to criticise on television,” he said. “They’ve never managed a team that’s lost a game.”

It is unfair to single out Redknapp, but he is certainly one of the worst offenders of a breed of pundits who now litter our TV screens, airwaves, websites and newspapers, using the word “literally” when they mean “figuratively,” jerking their knees under both definitions and proving anything they want with facts.

The problem with such an approach is that it relies upon leaving out other facts. Facts like Alonso wanting to leave, informing Benitez that he would be returning home in May and going so far as handing in a formal transfer request in three months later.

Contrary to Tony Gale’s incredible assertion during the match at White Hart Lane that “Benitez never fancied Alonso,” not only did the Liverpool manager buy the Basque and turn him into one of the best midfielders in the world, he also sought to keep him until it became clear his appeals were falling on deaf ears.

Or the fact that Benitez has been roundly criticised for five years for buying squad players, yet the minute he chooses to add two thoroughbred options to his squad, he is informed he needed quantity rather than quality. Given the financial constraints placed upon his transfer activity by Liverpool’s owners – Benitez is operating a barter economy in a capitalist world, spending only what he raises – quality in quantity was simply not an option.

That, of course, has given free rein to critics wishing to advance that most specious of arguments when it comes to Benitez’s side, the over-reliance on Torres and Gerrard. Leaving aside the irony that, if it were true, it therefore contradicts the criticism of selling Alonso, it is also bunkum.

Yes, Liverpool are weaker without their two best players. But taking Cesc Fabregas and Robin Van Persie out of Arsenal’s side would have much the same effect. Even Chelsea and Manchester United would find life harder without Frank Lampard, Didier Drogba, Wayne Rooney and Rio Ferdinand.

Besides which, Liverpool finished second last season, just four points off United, in a season when Torres and Gerrard only started 14 league games together. Still, you can prove anything with facts.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rorysmith/100001321/reaction-to-liverpool-loss-blown-out-of-proportion-its-a-fact/
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Offline vicgill

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #115 on: August 19, 2009, 02:53:34 pm »
The following quote is taken from "In My Life". It is something i am writing for my children and grandchildren.
 
Mr. Shankly had just arrived at Anfield, I had been on Liverpool's books for about two and a half years and the A team had a match at Bloomfield Road, It was a Wednesday evening, which was quite unusual in the those days, anyway here is the excerpt.
 
"I can’t remember why we were playing mid week because it was unusual but I remember in the team that night were Tommy Lawrence, Tommy Smith, Chris lawler, Ian Callaghan, Willie Carlin, Frank Twist and a few other very good players. While we were changing, Tom Bush who was in charge of the team that night said “the new boss is coming to watch and he’s going to say a few words before you go out”. This was quite a surprise to us because in the previous two years we had rarely seen Phil Taylor or spoken to him. Bill Shankly entered the dressing room and while we were waiting for the pearls of football wisdom to be bestowed on us he said “ok lads keep it simple and pass to a red shirt”. We did and we won 3-2."

One of his favourite sayings to all the players was, "Do the simple things but do them well"
 
I have cut and pasted this for HBHR in the hope that it satifies his curiosity  ::)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 03:03:05 pm by vicgill »
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #116 on: August 19, 2009, 04:10:27 pm »
Thanks Vic, was keeping an eye on the thread hoping you'd post in here :)
"I want to build a team that's invincible, so that they have to send a team from bloody Mars to beat us." - Bill Shankly

Offline The Nihilists

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #117 on: August 19, 2009, 04:11:43 pm »
Excellent post by HBHR, top, top quality.


Hopefully you would take it being described as "Tomkins-esque" as a compliment, although with more of a finger on the fans' pulse and a fuller spectrum (not relentlessly positive).


On that subject, his blog from yesterday morning:


Knee Jerk Time

The knees have never jerked so hard. No surprise, I guess, but still the way doom can set in after one game – one fucking game! – does my head in.

A few concerns are understandable. All out panic is pathetic.

“The squad is too thin”. Well, an injury crisis does that! Could it be stronger? Well, there’s always room for improvement.

“Liverpool lack goalscorers”. Yet last season the Reds were the league’s top goalscorers. With more-or-less the same players.

“The formation is wrong”. This is usually spouted by people who don’t understand tactics, and who can’t see that every modern 4-4-2 is a version of 4-4-1-1 anyway, with one striker behind the other.

Lee Dixon (who I don’t usually mind) says “Liverpool need to find another Alonso”. Who the fuck is Aquilani, then? I mean, obviously Liverpool are going to miss Alonso when Alonso has gone and his replacement won’t be fit for a few weeks. Benítez spent £20m on a top-class Italian international. For a reason. People talk as if he hasn't even considered the situation, let alone already addressed it.

Lee Dixon says “Liverpool's troubles were not helped by Torres looking like a shadow of his former self.”
Yes, he’s finished! “Their star striker looked like a player at Christmas time”.

He actually looked like a player who’d had less pre-season training than everyone else; it’s not fatigue at this time of the year, it’s rustiness. That’s blatantly obviously. He had his break later than everyone else, returned late, and only featured in the later friendlies.

Lee Dixon says “I am sure Benitez knows how good a player Alonso was, but the decision to sell him to Real Madrid in the summer looks to have left them short of creativity.” 

This view of Benítez ‘deciding’ to sell Alonso has been mooted in a few places, including The Guardian.
And yet it wasn’t really a ‘decision’ once Alonso handed in his transfer request, was it? Everton’s problems, according to Dixon’s MOTD colleagues, were down to the fact that they hadn’t sold Lescott. If Liverpool had lost with Alonso in the side, it would have been “you can’t keep unhappy players, it kills morale”.

Dixon also said: “They have brought in Alberto Aquilani to fill that space but until he proves he can be the chief supplier then they are going to have problems.”

Well, give the lad a fucking chance! He can’t prove it yet, but it’s not as if he’s going to miss the whole season. If Berbatov and Rooney get seriously injured this week, then suddenly United won’t look so strong. That’s what losing players does.

And again, I repeat, Aquilani is the designated source of creativity. But he’s not fit. If we can’t wait a few weeks, then what does that say about us as fans, and as observers?

Or would we rather have some inferior player just for the sake of it? It didn’t help whoever played central midfield that the front two weren’t sharp and Babel had one of those days where he just can’t make any kind of impression. Even Kuyt looked lethargic.

Apparently Arsenal lacked so many things going into this season, and yet after a 6-1 win at an Everton side in disarray they’re the best thing ever again. (If Liverpool’s zonal marking was awry for Spurs’ winner, then what was man-marking at Everton all about at the weekend? At least Carragher was close enough to make a challenge.)

United have no problems, but they only narrowly beat promoted Birmingham at home; job done but hardly a test. Chelsea have no problems, but they only beat a lowly side at home with an injury time fluke. Liverpool have massive problems, and yet should have had a penalty with which to equalise in a tough away game.

Admittedly Lucas and Mascherano are not ideal as a partnership in terms of natural balance, but I felt both did well enough; Lucas was up and down in the second half, making lots of good first-time passes (he only gave the ball away once all game and made one goal-saving tackle on Lennon), but in the first half there were too many square balls by both players.

Then again, there wasn’t enough movement ahead of them, there were too many long balls from the back, and Ryan Babel, who I pray will one day click into gear, was not in the game. The injury that limited Yossi Benayoun to just a sub role was another blow amongst many, but when he came on he showed that he was carrying over last season’s excellent form. He can add some of the creative spark that was missing.

Liverpool apparently lack depth up front, and yes, there is no major star in reserve, but Rafa has had his fingers burned with big names who refuse to sit on the bench without the longest of long faces.
What amazes me is that one of Crouch and Keane will sit out games at Spurs most weeks, with Defoe the best of the bunch, and Pavlechenko also there.

Will Keane sulk again? Will the cameras spend the entire game focused on who Harry leaves out? (I doubt it, because he’s a media favourite, and Rafa is their preferred figure of criticism when it comes to team selection.)
If Rafa has strong back-up strikers, he gets slated for rotating. After all, none will ever be as good as Torres and Gerrard, will they?

Everyone says that Rafa has to play Gerrard and Torres as much as is physically possible to win the league. Yet what top striker is going to be happy with a very limited bit-part role, especially in World Cup year? And options, such as David Villa, were too expensive, and unwilling to leave Spain.

Let’s face it: Liverpool started with a visit to a place where they lost twice last season. They went without half a dozen first team players, a semi-injured Benayoun, two centre-backs carrying injuries (who then injured each other), and the best front two in the world who were clearly not 100% sharp due to late returns to training (and in Gerrard’s case, time spent on trial).

In my piece for the official site last week I wrote that I expected the Reds to lose at Spurs; it was edited to it being a difficult game, and understandably so – it was a bit of a doom-ridden forecast. But when I then see fans before a game like this saying “we’ll stuff them 4-0”, I know that such crazy expectations are why people go off the deep end when we lose.

I was pissed off at the defeat, and especially the manner of the first half display, but it was always going to be a very tough game. As it was, despite being second best, the referee, by general neutral consensus, failed to give a nailed-on penalty, when Voronin was just yards out in the centre of goal. Phil Dowd showed how incompetent he can be only a week earlier in the Atletico game.

If Liverpool fail to beat Stoke, then I’ll accept genuine concern. But it still won’t signal doom. The pressure just needs to be lifted, and confidence boosted. However, I fear that fans will be on Lucas’ back after his first mistake, and the atmosphere will grow hostile too quickly if a lead isn’t found early on.

Losing sucks. But this whole ‘throw the baby out with the bath-water’ reaction is insane. And I’m not sure how much longer I can put up with it.


http://tomkins-blogs.typepad.com/paul_tomkins_blog/2009/08/knee-jerk-time.html

Offline jamiehill

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2009, 04:44:36 pm »
I've stayed off this forum for nearly three days now and I am glad I did. We've been well and truly written off in the media after a bad game. Good. We now have something to prove and I am sure we will be up for it.

What I liked about the OP is the insight into the 'pop-idol' culture instead of the focus on the team and the tactics. The 'knee-jerks' will look at individual mistakes that 'do' happen and single out individual players and make their lives a misery. I was as gutted as anybody on Sunday evening. My whole day was ruined, but this is pretty much the same team that made mincemeat out of the biggest opposition in Europe earlier in the year. The form WILL return, there's no doubt about that, its just unfortunate for us that we're not inform as a team with the season underway.
The English club proved that miracles really do exist. I've now made Liverpool my English team. They showed that football is the most beautiful sport of all. They showed their unconditional support at half-time when they were losing 3-0 and still they didn't stop singing." Diego Maradona

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2009, 04:53:14 pm »
This is great thread, so many quality posts. :wellin

Undoubtedly it will be moved to 'opinion' soon, and then go the same way as the level 3 thread, which i never started and don't dare touching now because of the 180+ page monster it has become :-\



Mate, get over there and just post. That thread is ripe for renaming - it's now a kind of sanctuary from the main board where people post interesting stuff and articles they've found and if they remotely relate to LFC in any way, we chew the fat for a while til we
get bored of it and move on to the next thing. No need to read the whole thing mate. :)