Topic: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool

[John C]

I don't like that picture at all. It looks like there's a shocking coolness or am I reading to much in to it?

[Get]

I don't like that picture at all. It looks like there's a shocking coolness or am I reading to much in to it?

u aren't. more I look at the picture the less i look forward to the ending of the season.

[koolkamal]

I don't like that picture at all. It looks like there's a shocking coolness or am I reading to much in to it?

It really does look bad but I'd rather see a video of before and after of that. Picture doesn't tell the whole story.


https://vimeo.com/41637655

Seeing Kenny's face at the end there. Breaks my heart. Really feel for him.

[CHOPPER]

I don't like that picture at all. It looks like there's a shocking coolness or am I reading to much in to it?

You are mate. Sometimes when I've had photies of me took - my boyish good looks, thick curly black hair, olive skin and come to bed smile have manifested themselves into a bald skin-headed 40+ bouncer looking type with grave stone teeth a deep set eyes. I blame the lighting and it's probably the same in that photie as well.

[Yorkykopite]

I don't like that picture at all. It looks like there's a shocking coolness or am I reading to much in to it?

It's a still photograph John. Take the snap half a second afterwards and who knows what you'll catch? A handshake, a look of commiseration, even a hug. Until you see the video hold your fire.

[Aaron Cross]

I don't like that picture at all. It looks like there's a shocking coolness or am I reading to much in to it?

I'm with you on that one, it doesn't look good, I hope I'm wrong but I fear for Kenny, I reckon FSG a well pissed off with things..

[12Kings]

On another note, all that anfield south merchandise the club panned out to us is a fucking embarrassment. A statement made by shankly when we were at our best and they pull that on out the archives to make a few extra quid. They'll be alot of merchandise going out to charities this summer that's for sure. Somone should lose their job for that one.

[alfonso]

The caption under the photo on the echo states "John Henry and Kenny Dalglish pass each other"

[lucas65]

You are mate. Sometimes when I've had photies of me took - my boyish good looks, thick curly black hair, olive skin and come to bed smile have manifested themselves into a bald skin-headed 40+ bouncer looking type with grave stone teeth a deep set eyes. I blame the lighting and it's probably the same in that photie as well.

Thats funny, sounds like you've used my camera there.

[John C]

You are mate. Sometimes when I've had photies of me took - my boyish good looks, thick curly black hair, olive skin and come to bed smile have manifested themselves into a bald skin-headed 40+ bouncer looking type with grave stone teeth a deep set eyes. I blame the lighting and it's probably the same in that photie as well.

We'd all love to see both you and Kenny in their younger days mate.

[Mighty_Red]

I did not argue with the team selection before the match, and I will not argue now - Chelsea are strong in midfield (and have been for 7/8 years) and so we had to play 3 in the middle.

Our problem was personnel - we only had a choice Hendo, Spearing & Shelvey so we had to trust in them. As it turned out, Spearing had an awful match and Hendo was overrun in the first half. Even if Carroll would've started we would have had to play someone with Stevie leaving him way to deep. Cover for Lucas is a must in the summer.

Defensively, we had a very bad match, with mistakes from Spearing, Enrique & Pepe contributing to the first goal.

We nearly made it back, and Carroll showed exactly the right attitude, he didn't sulk over the fact that he didn't start and when he did come on he tried to drag us back in the match. Had we just been a single goal behind when he came on then I'm sure we would have the Cup in our hands. As it was 2 goals was just too much. I doubt we would've been given the goal even if it was way over.

Where do we go from here? Pick ourselves up and win the next two games, that's all we can do - then the real hard work will start in the summer.

[Torpedo Tommy]

You are mate. Sometimes when I've had photies of me took - my boyish good looks, thick curly black hair, olive skin and come to bed smile have manifested themselves into a bald skin-headed 40+ bouncer looking type with grave stone teeth a deep set eyes. I blame the lighting and it's probably the same in that photie as well.

 

[vNauuuM]

Still pissed off about the Carroll goal incident. Mata's goal does not even TOUCH the line = Goal. But for Carroll? NO!

This is an excellent example of why we need goal line tech.

[Torpedo Tommy]

If ever one game summed up our season, this was it.

It had everything.  A period when we threw everything at our opposition.  A time when we really looked clueless up front.  A fantastic save by the opposition's keeper.  A key 50-50 decision that didn't go our way, the obligatory striking of the woodwork and the even more obligatory period in the game when we simply look lost and drop off.

The last point is the problem for me. We don't know how to take the game to teams.  We seem caught between sitting back and attacking the opposition and defending and keeping it tight.  The result is nothing football - we are neither attacking or organised.  Chelsea found it far to easy to find their own men in that first half.

It has happened for years in finals and big games.  Istanbul - came out offering nothing in the first half.  3-0 down and well, the rest is history.  Cardiff in 2007 - 2-0 down v West Ham and had to chase the game.  Wembley in the Carling Cup final - needed to come from behind after a nothing start.  Bitters in the semi.  Looked clueless for 45 minutes then turned it around in the second half.  Chelsea this weekend - looked lost for 35-40 minutes then it fininshed a game we should not have lost.

That is why I believe it is a mentality issue.  I'm not convinced we believe we are good enough to play the first 45 minutes like we did the second.  Start on the front foot and when we do take the lead, keep the momentum going and finish the game.

The game itself was a pretty poor spectacle - which was sort of to be expected.  Certain personnel were AWOL for the first 45 minutes and I think Kenny and FSG have a lot of difficult decisions to make regarding the playing staff.  As Rafa pointed out once - a player that is mentally suited to winning is sometimes better than one with all the ability in the world but having wrong mentality.  Many players at Liverpool need to ask themselves whether a) they have the ability to be there and b) actually want to be there.

It is pointless harping on about those who didn't perform.  Everyone knows who they were and I'm sure they realise that they simply must do better.  The person who concerns me most is Downing.  If ever a person lacked confidence and belief it is our Stewart.  I don't believe its the lack of ability - its just zero confidence and belief in his own ability.  He simply doesn't seem to want the ball any more and when he does get it he lacks the belief to do anything.  Some is down to how and when he receives tha ball but a lot has got to do with his confidence. A mention should go to Andy Carroll.  His contribution contribution was excellent.  Full of desire and hunger - what we bought him for in the first place

Really cold day in London and a very odd atmosphere inside the ground - felt subdued for the main part.  The Torch pub was crammed beforehand and the smaller bar just around the corner proved nigh on impossible to get into so credit to the dibble who didn't get too arsey about the reds drinking tinnies off the side of Wembley Way.

Ah well, lets go for 6 points from the next two games and see what the close season brings.  A few players out, them replaced, a few more first team additions and a ninety minute attitude and we'll be much better next season.

[aggerdid]

keep thinking back to kuyt almost putting in the rebound off "the goal that wasnt". footballs decided on such fine margins and in the heat of the moment everything happens all too fast but kuyt needed to get there. he had to. he'll regret not starting his sprint a nanosecond earlier for a long time to come

[Camarero25]

keep thinking back to kuyt almost putting in the rebound off "the goal that wasnt". footballs decided on such fine margins and in the heat of the moment everything happens all too fast but kuyt needed to get there. he had to. he'll regret not starting his sprint a nanosecond earlier for a long time to come

He sort of celebrated the "goal" didn't he? That can't have helped either.

Also, and I know I'm being harsh here, Andy should really have made sure with the header. He should have put it down or back across goal and Cech wouldn't have had a chance. Ah well, as you say, fine margins.

[aggerdid]

He sort of celebrated the "goal" didn't he?

oh christ just watched it back you're right. i thought i'd imagined that to make me think we'd scored. this feels similar to gerrards chance in the 2007 european cup final. gonna be moaning about this for a long time

[redtel]

It's clear we started the game too slowly and could hardly raise a trot never mind a gallop. This may have happened in other finals but this was a step removed from anything before.

The players looked in a daze as they lined up for the anthem and I hoped it was a sign of being focussed.
It wasn't. I don't know what was said in the 8 hrs leading up to k.o. but it seemed to have a very negative effect on the whole team.

Chelsea cut through our right flank very early on as though we were'nt there. Some of our players do have mentality issues but this was all 11. It seemed to me that they froze and only Andy's entrance snapped them out of it. Kenny seemed to not know what it was that caused them to play so weakly for an hour.

Had the coaching staff made them give Chelsea too much repect? Dunno but it needs looking at.

[WTF?]

It's a still photograph John. Take the snap half a second afterwards and who knows what you'll catch? A handshake, a look of commiseration, even a hug. Until you see the video hold your fire.

Exactly.

I strongly suspect what we're looking at is the tail end of a build up in the queue of players and management team up there. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that photo was taken just after they shook hands and then Kenny was waiting for the queue to move on.

[JohnnoWhite]

Didn't think that anyone involved in midfield was up for the game from the off. Henderson, Spearing, Downing or Bellamy down the right ALL were off the pace of the game throughout. I thought that Enrique particularly was shocking to be honest, and not just for the fact that he ballsed up for the Ramires goal. His whole approach to the game, his poor control when in possession of the ball - and his even poorer positional play without it were dreadful.

The impact of that first goal spread throughout the heart of the side and it was shakeysville from then on until past the hour mark. Then came the 30 minute resurgence and it was Chelsea's turn to be all over the show. Why Carroll chose to head high from that range is a mystery. He heads it down and he scores - moreover, Liverpool could well have gone on to win that crazy game.
For anyone doubting whether he still had the passion for the job, there was KK over on the touch line rising up and nodding 'em in from every cross - missis said bloody hell , he's doing what you're always doing! She never heard me reply that he did it miles better!!

Don't know what might or might not happen over the close season with FSG. But Kenny looked mightily pissed off imo. Whether he knows more than any of us knows at the minute is a moot point but could it be that he already is clear there's a lack of real quaility in the engine room - and possibly no indication of a decent transfer pot from them upstairs at his disposal?

[Hank Scorpio]

I thought Chelsea played us perfectly until Carroll came on.  They gave us the ball and let us make the mistakes rather than forcing the game.  Chelsea are a very experienced side and it showed.  They knew about the lack of experience in the midfield and that giving us the ball wouldn't exactly result in giving up the game.

[LondonRedMan]

Didn't think that anyone involved in midfield was up for the game from the off. Henderson, Spearing, Downing or Bellamy down the right ALL were off the pace of the game throughout. I thought that Enrique particularly was shocking to be honest, and not just for the fact that he ballsed up for the Ramires goal. His whole approach to the game, his poor control when in possession of the ball - and his even poorer positional play without it were dreadful.

The impact of that first goal spread throughout the heart of the side and it was shakeysville from then on until past the hour mark. Then came the 30 minute resurgence and it was Chelsea's turn to be all over the show. Why Carroll chose to head high from that range is a mystery. He heads it down and he scores - moreover, Liverpool could well have gone on to win that crazy game.
There was KK up and nodding 'em in from every cross over on the touch line - missis said bloody hell , he's doing what you're always doing!

Don't know what might or might not happen over the close season with FSG. But Kenny looked mightily pissed off imo. Whether he knows more than any of us knows at the minute is a moot point but could it be that he already is clear there's a lack of real quaility in the engine room - and possibly no indication of a decent transfer pot from them upstairs at his disposal?

Just speculation about the transfer kitty. Kenny is going to look unimpressed as he is a winner. We played poorly in the first half and we had too many players making mistakes. Let's not put Kenny's annoyance down to anything but the disappointing performance and result.

[JohnnoWhite]

Yes fair point.

What I suppose really wanted to highlight is whether KK was not only disappointed with the performance last Saturday but maybe he also knows there's not too much quality available to him coming through the reserve ranks.

[Vlsanfield]

carroll should have started

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

I thought Chelsea played us perfectly until Carroll came on.  They gave us the ball and let us make the mistakes rather than forcing the game.  Chelsea are a very experienced side and it showed.  They knew about the lack of experience in the midfield and that giving us the ball wouldn't exactly result in giving up the game.

I dunno Hank, I think you're lending too much credence to their tactical nous. They didn't have to force the game because they just wandered down the middle of the pitch, Andy coming on only coincided with a change in mindset/tactics that consisted of; fuck it! we've got nothing to lose, lets go at them.

[Adeemo]

When was the last time we actually turned up for a Cup Final, without having to be shocked into life? Possibly against Alaves and even then we produced many sloppy moments, maybe against the mancs in the 2003 League Cup final but that was a backs to wall job iirc. As far as I'm concerned this club has had a huge problem with it's mentality for many a year now, our past weighs heavy on the shoulders of many of our players. It's also the root cause of our failure to score anywhere near as many goals as we should, a problem that's been around for a while now and has only really come to prominence this season.

[steveeastend]

He made the wrong purchases and ended up giving us this weird hybrid of a system that doesnt really work for the personell that we have. He hasnt rewarded performances which should be a basic trait of any manager, he has persisted with justifying certain players whilst ignoring others....

... which is something that hasnīt been discussed around here that often. The consequence was to be seen in these games like Fulham at home. Players like Kuyt and Maxi, as professional they might be, stopped giving it all as they didnīt see the point in it anymore as they know not being played in important games anyway. Itīs ok being sidelined for someone obviously better but this wasnīt the case which makes it even more hard to understand for the squad. As soon as there is no winning (anymore) the squad falls apart.

If you wanna be nasty you could point out this to be the opposite of the Liverpool way, not being loyal to players who gave it all in a very difficult time of the club last the season but yeah, that seems to be only true for the likes of Carra,  the rest had to accept being benched for mediocre PL players brought in..

To me, it wasnīt about the best players and not about the most suitable ones for the system. Neither when it comes to the transfers we did last summer, nor when it comes to the performances/lines up during the season. So what was it all about?

[AM76]

Still pissed off about the Carroll goal incident. Mata's goal does not even TOUCH the line = Goal. But for Carroll? NO!

This is an excellent example of why we need goal line tech.

Except in this instance, the goal wouldn't have been given as the whole of the ball didnt cross the line - some of it did but not all.  Pains me to say it, but the correct decision was made with Carrolls header.

[Fat Scouser]

Hang on there Steve, Kenny dropped Carra when he had both Skrtel and Agger fit. And Carra only got back in when injuries forced Kenny's hand.
I'm not sure how much influence Carra has in club affairs. I'll admit, I do worry about that and I don't like the thought of him being manager any day soon. But in all fairness, Kenny did axe him from the team and he's been kept out when Agger and Skrtel have been fit.

[Fat Scouser]

Except in this instance, the goal wouldn't have been given as the whole of the ball didnt cross the line - some of it did but not all.  Pains me to say it, but the correct decision was made with Carrolls header.

Doesn't really matter now. I wish people would stop whingeing about it. It just makes us look like Maureen and gives people the chance to gloat.

[Dougle]

"As for Kuyt, Maxi, Spearing, Aurelio, I'd say we'd be lucky to get Ģ15 million for the lot of them, but it'll allow us a little more money to spend towards one decent player. "

I hate to burst your bubble there mate, and I know this is gonna be our fun for the summer but we ain't getting 15 million for these guys. It would be closer to 1.5 million.

As for the match well it's pretty much all been said above. On the field we have the talent in my opinion. Even the much maligned Downing played really well towards the end yesterday, as did Henderson, but we don't have enough proper mentality in terms of tactical flexibility, determination, confidence, coolness. We don't have enough leaders either.

How much of this malaise is down to the lack of that unquantifiable thing called confidence and how much is talent and tactics ? Well we'll have the summer to sort that one out.

Thankfully we'll have The Hodge and Co for entertainment later but I don't think they'll be a lot of laughing down Anfield way in the near future.

[krispy.red]

Hang on there Steve, Kenny dropped Carra when he had both Skrtel and Agger fit. And Carra only got back in when injuries forced Kenny's hand.
I'm not sure how much influence Carra has in club affairs. I'll admit, I do worry about that and I don't like the thought of him being manager any day soon. But in all fairness, Kenny did axe him from the team and he's been kept out when Agger and Skrtel have been fit.

Pretty sure Agger and Skrtel only started together when Carragher got injured sometime around October. So Kenny really didn't drop him. He did however keep him out once he was healthy again, but it wasn't too hard a decision since we were best in the league of goals allowed.

[Camarero25]

... which is something that hasnīt been discussed around here that often. The consequence was to be seen in these games like Fulham at home. Players like Kuyt and Maxi, as professional they might be, stopped giving it all as they didnīt see the point in it anymore as they know not being played in important games anyway. Itīs ok being sidelined for someone obviously better but this wasnīt the case which makes it even more hard to understand for the squad. As soon as there is no winning (anymore) the squad falls apart.

If you wanna be nasty you could point out this to be the opposite of the Liverpool way, not being loyal to players who gave it all in a very difficult time of the club last the season but yeah, that seems to be only true for the likes of Carra,  the rest had to accept being benched for mediocre PL players brought in..

To me, it wasnīt about the best players and not about the most suitable ones for the system. Neither when it comes to the transfers we did last summer, nor when it comes to the performances/lines up during the season. So what was it all about?

That's a very good point. It must be hard to get motivated for a game when you know that no matter what you do you won't be getting picked for the next "more important" one. Take Maxi for example (who I think has been treated appallingly this year), he scored two against Blackburn and was then instantly dropped for the Cup Semi, with Downing, who has done very little all season, coming in.

The other side of that coin is the players who are more or less guaranteed to play aren't motivated to improve their performances because they know a run of poor performances won't see them dropped.

Kenny needs to pick his sides more on merit, for me. Actually, it's been a problem with us for a while, in that I was often frustrated with Rafa for doing it with the likes of Babel (though perhaps he was right on that one in the end!).

[capt_methane]

Carroll should've started

We were awful for 60 minutes. If we'd have played like we did for the final third for the whole game we'd have won

Persoanlly I thought the ball crossed the line, but it just wasn't to be. I just hope the Chelsea will shut up about 05 now!

Onwards and upwards

[Fat Scouser]

Pretty sure Agger and Skrtel only started together when Carragher got injured sometime around October. So Kenny really didn't drop him. He did however keep him out once he was healthy again, but it wasn't too hard a decision since we were best in the league of goals allowed.

Either or, but the point is... Kenny kept Carra out, as he did on Saturday, when both Agger and Skrtel were available to him.
Make no mistake, I worry about the influence Carra, and to a little lesser extent Gerrard, have. People would point to Kenny becoming player/manager, but it gives me no confidence in Carragher taking on a similair role. But the thread's not about that, and that is only opinion and rumour. Although, I have no doubt that Carra wants the job. He's made that plain. All I'm saying is... Kenny won't allow sentiment or anything else pick his teams. He'll go with the best 11 in his opinion. Of course, all of us won't agree with his choice but, make no mistake, he'll pick the 11 players he thinks can best win the game. That was all I was saying. I stick by it.

[lorenzo23]

Hang on there Steve, Kenny dropped Carra when he had both Skrtel and Agger fit. And Carra only got back in when injuries forced Kenny's hand.
I'm not sure how much influence Carra has in club affairs. I'll admit, I do worry about that and I don't like the thought of him being manager any day soon. But in all fairness, Kenny did axe him from the team and he's been kept out when Agger and Skrtel have been fit.

Carra was never dropped at start mate, he got injured and that gave the chance to see Agger and Skrtel partnership.

[lorenzo23]

Either or, but the point is... Kenny kept Carra out, as he did on Saturday, when both Agger and Skrtel were available to him.
Make no mistake, I worry about the influence Carra, and to a little lesser extent Gerrard, have. People would point to Kenny becoming player/manager, but it gives me no confidence in Carragher taking on a similair role. But the thread's not about that, and that is only opinion and rumour. Although, I have no doubt that Carra wants the job. He's made that plain. All I'm saying is... Kenny won't allow sentiment or anything else pick his teams. He'll go with the best 11 in his opinion. Of course, all of us won't agree with his choice but, make no mistake, he'll pick the 11 players he thinks can best win the game. That was all I was saying. I stick by it.

Don't think anyone can say they know better than Kenny on picking the team even if we disagree with it, maybe only when its not working he seems to take a life to change it. Clearly most of a opinions are based on what goes on at match day and not training, only thing i would say IMO its much more important how players perform on match day than in training.(why i would be extremely confused why Maxi has started so little or scored/assisted then be dropped next game yet Downing plays no matter what. The argue meant  in defense for this would be we don't see what happens in training, yet does that matter so much if the player aka Downing is having stormer in training but doing nothing on the match day?) Not trying play FM just saying how i view football i find what players bring to match day matters much more than what they do in training IMO

[Regi]

Overriding feeling for me is that we just handed it over instead of making them earn it.
Chelsea did fuck all of note in the game but we failed to make them work until Andy showed us that he can have a future at the club.
His performance was the sort of bludgeoning display I've been hoping for all season...he wanted every pass, won every header and generally caused panic on a backline that had been having a day at the seaside such was our lack of attacking impetus.
I don't want to go overboard on what that might mean for him but I believe you find out a lot about players on such occasions...Andy showed that he has a bit of character and cajones while I'm certain there are bigger balls in my Subbutteo set than there are on Downing...he was truly shocking.
We didnt need a midfield overhaul last summer but we got one anyway.
We badly need one now but I fear we won't get it.
It's a big big summer if we aren't going to be left way behind the top 5.

[Fat Scouser]

lorenzo.... Kenny would only drop any player for any other player because he thinks that's the player that will give us more chance of winning the game. He may rotate, but the only reason anyone will end up on a team sheet is because Kenny thinks that his best option. He won't let sentiment stand in the way. He won't be cajoled, bullied, talked into or encouraged into playing any player ahead of another if he doesn't think that's his best option.
Like I said, lots of us won't agree with his choice, but it will be his choice. No player, including Carra, will influence that. If I found out otherwise, I'd be more than shocked.

[steveeastend]

Hang on there Steve, Kenny dropped Carra when he had both Skrtel and Agger fit. And Carra only got back in when injuries forced Kenny's hand.
I'm not sure how much influence Carra has in club affairs. I'll admit, I do worry about that and I don't like the thought of him being manager any day soon. But in all fairness, Kenny did axe him from the team and he's been kept out when Agger and Skrtel have been fit.

Thatīs true. I was refering to the arguments in both cases, Carra vs. Kuyt. Whereas itīs totally understandable to offer a special treatment for Carra for his legend status, and for that almost impossible to be criticial on him as player without getting some sort of abuse  itīs on the other hand totally normal to let a loyal player like Kuyt go because his "time has come".

Donīt get me wrong, I am not soft and all this and I think there should be always both arguments come into play when aging players are faded out of the squad. Long serving players for sure deserve some special treatment, itīs important man management to show the appreciation for the hard work of the past but overall I think we have to make up our minds up what it should be all about..

In my opinion Carra shouldnīt have been played from day one of this season and his special standing within the club gave him more game time than it was good for our performances on the pitch. Understandable though when being loyal to a legend in his last couple of months of his career. On the other hand we watch Dirk Kuyt being benched for some mediocre players and accept his departure as this "long term project" demands to ship out players due to their age.

If you could always discuss the consequences of the outcome of all this on the pitch, I think itīs totally clear that it had a negative impact on the motivation of the squad in general as soon as the players realised that itīs not about performances only for being played.