Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[sempi]

We'd have wished that they would get fewer game minutes. Getting rid of those two for good money was beyond ideal.

Probably true for Fabinho, but Henderson's great strength was giving energy to the midfield .I'm glad they  are both gone, the new players are far superior upgrades.

[newterp]

Probably true for Fabinho, but Henderson's great strength was giving energy to the midfield .I'm glad they  are both gone, the new players are far superior upgrades.

the problem is that energy wasn't very sustainable lately - and he was getting roundly beaten regularly.

rare was the game last season where you said - wow Henderson was awesome. or even really good.

[Sangria]

Probably true for Fabinho, but Henderson's great strength was giving energy to the midfield .I'm glad they  are both gone, the new players are far superior upgrades.

It was, some years ago. Not any more. After last season, I was adamant that Fabinho had to go, but I was resigned to Henderson staying because he was club captain, but wishing he'd be gone too. I anticipated getting maybe £10m if we were lucky. To immediately get rid of both for £50m+ was absolutely fantastic.

[Oldmanmick]

It was, some years ago. Not any more. After last season, I was adamant that Fabinho had to go, but I was resigned to Henderson staying because he was club captain, but wishing he'd be gone too. I anticipated getting maybe £10m if we were lucky. To immediately get rid of both for £50m+ was absolutely fantastic.

If I'm not mistaken, our 5 worst defeats last season had Fabinho starting in all 5 games, whilst Henderson started in 3 of them. Pretty damming for both of them.

[Scottymuser]

It was, some years ago. Not any more. After last season, I was adamant that Fabinho had to go, but I was resigned to Henderson staying because he was club captain, but wishing he'd be gone too. I anticipated getting maybe £10m if we were lucky. To immediately get rid of both for £50m+ was absolutely fantastic.

I wanted us to keep Hendo (more than Milner) for the experienced head - and to use him like as a 7th/8th choice CM to be brought on to give impetus to the side etc.   I still think that he was a brilliant captain (best one ever that I've seen for us at least), and that could be used on the training ground and in the dressing room.  But he was on a decent wage, and we received a decent fee for him so I can understand the club's logic in selling him once the bid was made.  Fabinho was so so poor, that even without the much larger bid for him, I still wanted him gone.  In Jan I'd love us to get Andre T - and to make room for him, Thiago can go if Saudi come back with a bid (or he leaves in the summer anyway for free). 

[xbugawugax]

Yeah, having a pure destroyer like what Endo is would be second priority in games. I think once we settle, Endo would become a sub player brought on for the last stages of the game to protect a lead.
If Gravenberch realizes his potential under Klopp and gets his mentality back, we will have a quality midfield. But, will it be capable of wresting possession and keeping it from the likes of City and Real is what I would want to see.
I wish to see a game where we dominate the very best.

i dont have such lofty ambitions for the midfield yet. but it looks like we are at least going in the right direction. To be able to dictate the game vs villa, which i think is a top 6 side and playing under a wily coach in unai looks hugely promising. I guess next step is for the midfield to step up and be consistent in dealing with the different tactical sides the epl have to offer. Whether they will be as dominating and not panic and revert to type when a goal down would be key. For sure, the current midfield personnel have a higher technical ceiling than the one that it replaces.

[RedG13]

I think Europa League helps this season. I think Bajcetic and Elliott will get game time in this competition in tge 1st half of the season.

I think the issue might be in 18-24 months time if 3-4 of these options emerge as obvious 1st choices and we have CL football.

In the meantime, I think it’s a great situation to have. Be interesting how we view Thiago and replacing him. Depending on how the younger 5-6 midfield options do over next 6-12 months, it’ll be interesting if we’d want another 20-24 year old to replace Thiago.

The thing is there going be 2 extra CL games at minimum, and possibly 2 more if somehow not top 8.
There like 5-6k Minutes at position and also going be a club world cup the summer of 2025.
I would think the goal is be able to rotate guys where yes there a preferred XI but the drop off not big or the Starters can do the last 30 minute we need to the win game stuff.
Have to be able to rotate basically need 2 per position. CB, Goalie are going be the spots where rotation is less.
Remember the Southampton game at the end of 21/22 season where there 9 changes to the Starting XI and won 1-0, probably going to see that type of thing more(Probably not 9 subs as much but like 5-7) more rotation with 5 subs too.

[Sangria]

The thing is there going be 2 extra CL games at minimum, and possibly 2 more if somehow not top 8.
There like 5-6k Minutes at position and also going be a club world cup the summer of 2025.
I would think the goal is be able to rotate guys where yes there a preferred XI but the drop off not big or the Starters can do the last 30 minute we need to the win game stuff.
Have to be able to rotate basically need 2 per position. CB, Goalie are going be the spots where rotation is less.
Remember the Southampton game at the end of 21/22 season where there 9 changes to the Starting XI and won 1-0, probably going to see that type of thing more(Probably not 9 subs as much but like 5-7) more rotation with 5 subs too.

Does anyone know whom the Charity Shield will be against next year after we win the league and all the cups?

[cipher]

While I'd love to see players like Jones & Elliot progress and become key players for us in the future, I suspect one or possibly both will be replaced in the next 2-3 years.  I don't think Elliot possess the physical attributes (speed/strength) to play in our midfield if he's not able to morph into a lite version of David Silva/Modric.  Jones has a better chance of staying, but I need to see more growth, consistency and availability before I feel comfortable there.  His performances at the end of last year as well as this summer show he's definitely heading in the right direction.  With Thiago likely leaving this offseason and the nature of the game (injuries, performance regression) I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of new midfielders coming in over the next few transfer periods.

I want to be clear here, when I judge our players I'm using our title/CL winning teams as a benchmark as well as other elite teams like City and Real Madrid.  I'd prefer we don't settle on players who can compete against 90% of the teams in the world, but are then outclassed against the top teams.  I'm hoping for players who can either compete against anyone today or look like they will be able to in the near future.  For example, I'm comfortable putting up our attack and goaltending against any team in the world.  The depth our attack is such that even losing a couple of players still leaves me confident against most teams.  While our midfield overhaul was a big step in the right direction, I still think a little more work is required there before I'd be comfortable.  Ask yourself if an additional midfielder at the same potential level of Szoboszlai could make our team better.  I think it's pretty clear it would, so hopefully the team is thinking the same. 

My biggest worry is we finish 2nd/3rd this year, getting back into the Champions League and FSG fall back to their conservative investment strategy leaving Klopp trying to work miracles during his potentially final few years.

[RedG13]

Does anyone know whom the Charity Shield will be against next year after we win the league and all the cups?

Idk why that relevant. Looking at 32 Team club world cup. I would be shocked if Liverpool not in it, it legit 2021-2024 winning for UEFA champs League and then next 8 teams in Uefa Rankings.

[Sangria]

Idk why that relevant. Looking at 32 Team club world cup. I would be shocked if Liverpool not in it, it legit 2021-2024 winning for UEFA champs League and then next 8 teams in Uefa Rankings.

Mea culpa. I thought you were talking about the Club World Cup that was the tournament for winners of the CL and other continental cups, thus presuming we would qualify for the CL this season and win it the next.

[Keith Lard]

While I'd love to see players like Jones & Elliot progress and become key players for us in the future, I suspect one or possibly both will be replaced in the next 2-3 years.  I don't think Elliot possess the physical attributes (speed/strength) to play in our midfield if he's not able to morph into a lite version of David Silva/Modric.  Jones has a better chance of staying, but I need to see more growth, consistency and availability before I feel comfortable there.  His performances at the end of last year as well as this summer show he's definitely heading in the right direction.  With Thiago likely leaving this offseason and the nature of the game (injuries, performance regression) I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of new midfielders coming in over the next few transfer periods.

I want to be clear here, when I judge our players I'm using our title/CL winning teams as a benchmark as well as other elite teams like City and Real Madrid.  I'd prefer we don't settle on players who can compete against 90% of the teams in the world, but are then outclassed against the top teams.  I'm hoping for players who can either compete against anyone today or look like they will be able to in the near future.  For example, I'm comfortable putting up our attack and goaltending against any team in the world.  The depth our attack is such that even losing a couple of players still leaves me confident against most teams.  While our midfield overhaul was a big step in the right direction, I still think a little more work is required there before I'd be comfortable.  Ask yourself if an additional midfielder at the same potential level of Szoboszlai could make our team better.  I think it's pretty clear it would, so hopefully the team is thinking the same. 

My biggest worry is we finish 2nd/3rd this year, getting back into the Champions League and FSG fall back to their conservative investment strategy leaving Klopp trying to work miracles during his potentially final few years.

I’m just glad that we’re not depending on Elliott and Jones. They’re both class squad options with work to do to gain a first team spot. Both very capable and have a massive upside. If the team is doing well, they’re not getting into the first team regularly but contributing effectively in rotation and off the bench, I wouldn’t be surprised if they attract big bids in the future.

Our midfield is really looking rather tickety boo all of a sudden. We’re now in the good position of looking out for star additions as opposed to big rebuild. Really hoping Gravenberch shows his Ajax star quality and hits the ground running.

[RedG13]

Mea culpa. I thought you were talking about the Club World Cup that was the tournament for winners of the CL and other continental cups, thus presuming we would qualify for the CL this season and win it the next.

All good, If win qualify and win the CL in 2025 then Liverpool is qualified for the 2029 Club world cup.
It going from a like 8 team tourney to a month long 32 ones. Basically season could go from aug to July once out of every 4 years.

[Dave McCoy]

You aren't making bids for Caicedo and Lavia if you planned to have no out and out ball winners. I think what we're seeing is just the result of the market, not what we wanted. Even making Gravenchberch into a 6, it would be because of his ability to hold the ball more than being a ball winner if any of these scouts are to be believed.

Think what we're doing is very Bundesliga at the moment. Not that it's bad thing but it's basically "we win it in the press or we clear it off the line" type stuff. Maybe more for the tactics thread but why I think we're going to still see the extreme home/away splits except against the bottom 8ish teams who are really bad this year compared to the last 5-10 years of the PL.

[BoRed]

Idk why that relevant. Looking at 32 Team club world cup. I would be shocked if Liverpool not in it, it legit 2021-2024 winning for UEFA champs League and then next 8 teams in Uefa Rankings.

I think I read somewhere it would be maximum two per country (unless more that two actually win the CL in those four years), so we wouldn't be in it regardless of ranking, since Chelsea and City have already qualified. Might be wrong, though.

[RedG13]

I think I read somewhere it would be maximum two per country (unless more that two actually win the CL in those four years), so we wouldn't be in it regardless of ranking, since Chelsea and City have already qualified. Might be wrong, though.

Nope 8 highest ranked ones after the 4 Uefa champs league. I doubt Liverpool falls below that even with the max number of points for Liverpool being the Europa season would be 18 coeffiecient points(replacing a 19 point coefficient  season) 4 for winning group and winning all 7 knock out would be 14(a draw would be 1 point over 2). Basically would have fall under juve or dortmund and that seems unlikely.
https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/articles/fifa-club-world-cup-2025-dates-format-and-qualifiers
https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2024

[BoRed]

Nope 8 highest ranked ones after the 4 Uefa champs league. I doubt Liverpool falls below that even with the max number of points for Liverpool being the Europa season would be 18 coeffiecient points(replacing a 19 point coefficient  season) 4 for winning group and winning all 7 knock out would be 14(a draw would be 1 point over 2). Basically would have fall under juve or dortmund and that seems unlikely.
https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/articles/fifa-club-world-cup-2025-dates-format-and-qualifiers
https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2024

Literally from the first of those links:

A cap of two clubs per country will be applied to the access list with an exception in cases where more than two clubs from the same country win the confederation’s premier club competition over the four-year period.

[RedG13]

Literally from the first of those links:

Wont that mean that 2 clubs from England won the CL and there will exceptions, would seem like there another English club or 2, It only Liverpool and Manchester United as the other 2 in the top 12 from there and Liverpool has a good chance to stay above in terms of points

[Knight]

You aren't making bids for Caicedo and Lavia if you planned to have no out and out ball winners. I think what we're seeing is just the result of the market, not what we wanted. Even making Gravenchberch into a 6, it would be because of his ability to hold the ball more than being a ball winner if any of these scouts are to be believed.

Think what we're doing is very Bundesliga at the moment. Not that it's bad thing but it's basically "we win it in the press or we clear it off the line" type stuff. Maybe more for the tactics thread but why I think we're going to still see the extreme home/away splits except against the bottom 8ish teams who are really bad this year compared to the last 5-10 years of the PL.

We’re going to get destroyed in the transition on occasion without someone who’s good at fighting fires at 6 but if our counter press is elite and if we can effectively play in a low/ mid block the impact of a lack of a top class ball winner can be mitigated.

[ThePoolMan]

We’re going to get destroyed in the transition on occasion without someone who’s good at fighting fires at 6 but if our counter press is elite and if we can effectively play in a low/ mid block the impact of a lack of a top class ball winner can be mitigated.

Thats why I believe the club will try to sign Andre Trindade in January.

Yesterday the Fluminense president just confirmed the club tried to sign Andre during the just concluded transfer window...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/football/i-go-even-further-club-president-says-hes-told-liverpool-they-can-buy-his-34m-player-in-january-contact-made/ar-AA1gmkBq

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The Boss will turn one of lads into a world class 6

[BoRed]

Wont that mean that 2 clubs from England won the CL and there will exceptions, would seem like there another English club or 2, It only Liverpool and Manchester United as the other 2 in the top 12 from there and Liverpool has a good chance to stay above in terms of points

That's not how I'm reading it. Like I said, I'm pretty sure I heard a while ago that we definitely won't be in it, but I could be wrong. Plenty of time for FIFA to change their rules when they realise Sevilla are ranked higher than Barcelona, though.

[MD1990]

Bajectic is  pretty quick. Very young & will improve physically.
I think his form & progression will play a part in whether we get in a ball winner in January or the summer.

We against Aston Villa who have alot of pace in attack showed how retaining the ball will help us greatly.
Far too many times last season we got into trouble with misplaced passes or players losing the ball.

[tubby]

Bajectic is  pretty quick. Very young & will improve physically.
I think his form & progression will play a part in whether we get in a ball winner in January or the summer.

He doesn't look quick to me?  Not saying he's slow, he's definitely quicker than Mac Allister, but I wouldn't say speed is an asset of his.

[Bobinhood]

He doesn't look quick to me?  Not saying he's slow, he's definitely quicker than Mac Allister, but I wouldn't say speed is an asset of his.

He gets about. Got that deceptive long legs stride. Not sure hes Mane but at dm he covers the all important first few strides pretty rapidly. Very quick in his head as well.

[spider-neil]

I think we want a DM that mostly wins the ball but I think the plan is have one that gives more on the ball than the typical DM. These players cost a fortune as we’ve seen so we are going to develop our own version of this player. Mac being preferred to Endo was interesting. When you see Mac in this position the signing of Gravenberch makes more sense.

In Gravenberch, Mac, Dom, Baj, and Jones you have you have a young pool of midfielders who are comfortable deeper or high up the pitch so they all can occupy any position in the midfield and not look out of place so if a midfielder presses forward with the ball another midfielder can drop in and protect space in the event of a turnover. If is being pressed the can beat the press and carry the ball up the pitch. If they are facing a low block they can carry the ball until the opposition have to engage which will open up gaps.

We’re at ground zero for the midfield and it’s pretty exciting. I think we need to be open about the setup because in all likelihood it will be different from what it was in Klopp’s first iteration of the midfield.

[keyop]

I think we want a DM that mostly wins the ball but I think the plan is have one that gives more on the ball than the typical DM. These players cost a fortune as we’ve seen so we are going to develop our own version of this player. Mac being preferred to Endo was interesting. When you see Mac in this position the signing of Gravenberch makes more sense.

In Gravenberch, Mac, Dom, Baj, and Jones you have you have a young pool of midfielders who are comfortable deeper or high up the pitch so they all can occupy any position in the midfield and not look out of place so if a midfielder presses forward with the ball another midfielder can drop in and protect space in the event of a turnover. If is being pressed the can beat the press and carry the ball up the pitch. If they are facing a low block they can carry the ball until the opposition have to engage which will open up gaps.

We’re at ground zero for the midfield and it’s pretty exciting. I think we need to be open about the setup because in all likelihood it will be different from what it was in Klopp’s first iteration of the midfield.

I think this bit is key. We already saw signs of new patterns and roles in the 2nd half of last season - with Trent's evolution, Robbo sometimes more restrained, and Konate covering the RB space during our attacks.

It'll be the same with midfield - Jurgen has 4 new talented players at his disposal to mould into whatever system he wants. I'm not sure direct comparisons to our title winning side, players, or tactics are necessary, as we're evolving into a different type of team now. Instead of a midfield that does all the hard work so that others can flourish, we now have a midfield that can flourish in its own right. I think Jurgen still wants a high energy, hard working, pressing midfield that pins the opposition back, wins turnovers, shields the ball well, and protects the defence in transition. But we appear to have added more technical ability, goal scoring potential, and players that offer more than hard graft and tactical discipline.

Instead of attacking fullbacks with a 6 that drops into CB, and CM's that press the opposition into submission, I think we'll see a midfield unit that is much more involved in our creative play and contributing to more goals and assists. We also have a good spread of skillsets for different opposition or in-game adjustments when needed.

It's a big step in the foundations for Jurgen's Liverpool 2.0, and the early signs are looking good.

[spider-neil]

I think this bit is key. We already saw signs of new patterns and roles in the 2nd half of last season - with Trent's evolution, Robbo sometimes more restrained, and Konate covering the RB space during our attacks.

It'll be the same with midfield - Jurgen has 4 new talented players at his disposal to mould into whatever system he wants. I'm not sure direct comparisons to our title winning side, players, or tactics are necessary, as we're evolving into a different type of team now. Instead of a midfield that does all the hard work so that others can flourish, we now have a midfield that can flourish in its own right. I think Jurgen still wants a high energy, hard working, pressing midfield that pins the opposition back, wins turnovers, shields the ball well, and protects the defence in transition. But we appear to have added more technical ability, goal scoring potential, and players that offer more than hard graft and tactical discipline.

Instead of attacking fullbacks with a 6 that drops into CB, and CM's that press the opposition into submission, I think we'll see a midfield unit that is much more involved in our creative play and contributing to more goals and assists. We also have a good spread of skillsets for different opposition or in-game adjustments when needed.

It's a big step in the foundations for Jurgen's Liverpool 2.0, and the early signs are looking good.

Pep's City are an absolute juggernaut and you aren't going to catch them by emulating them so innovating is something I'm on board with. Single pivot out and out destroyer DM. Been there, done that.

[Oldmanmick]

Pep's City are an absolute juggernaut and you aren't going to catch them by emulating them so innovating is something I'm on board with. Single pivot out and out destroyer DM. Been there, done that.

Totally agree with that. If you've got a midfield that consists of young energetic players that are capable of winning the ball back, then there's no need for a DM. In fact, for the best part a defensive midfielder wouldn't be needed against most of the inferior sides in the PL.

[Knight]

Pep's City are an absolute juggernaut and you aren't going to catch them by emulating them so innovating is something I'm on board with. Single pivot out and out destroyer DM. Been there, done that.

That's not what Fabinho, or Henderson before him, were though? Fabinho was our 'lighthouse' and that was a reference to his on the ball work. He progressed the ball and was decent when pressed.

[Funky_Gibbons]

That's not what Fabinho, or Henderson before him, were though? Fabinho was our 'lighthouse' and that was a reference to his on the ball work. He progressed the ball and was decent when pressed.

I'm pretty sure 'lighthouse' was a reference to his off the ball work, being able to see danger from afar sort of thing.

[Fromola]

the problem is that energy wasn't very sustainable lately - and he was getting roundly beaten regularly.

rare was the game last season where you said - wow Henderson was awesome. or even really good.

Henderson was such a vital player in terms of what he contributed but what he gave to the midfield in terms of his energy and legs etc was no longer really there after his bad injury in 2021. His stats last season were appalling.

Fabinho was essential in 2018-2021 but then he had a big dip from the 21/22 run in and into the next season where he became a liability.

The huge miscalculation in summer 2022 was thinking we could carry both (and increasingly injury prone Thiago) for another season without fresh legs coming in.

Fabinho and Henderson going has allowed us to rebuild properly with fresh legs, without carrying them. There's still question marks over the number 6 but we're absolutely stacked with number 8's now who can provide the energy Henderson no longer could.

[Yorkykopite]

I'm pretty sure 'lighthouse' was a reference to his off the ball work, being able to see danger from afar sort of thing.

I thought he was called the 'lighthouse' because he was tall and thin with an internal spiral staircase.

[Knight]

I'm pretty sure 'lighthouse' was a reference to his off the ball work, being able to see danger from afar sort of thing.

I'm not sure it was (or was only about his off the ball work, it may have referred to both), but feel free to prove me wrong if you have a sense of where the relevant interviews/ articles are. Whatever the truth there though, Fabinho was never only a destroyer for us. At his best (because this did drop off along with everything else), he was press resistant and a progressive passer of the ball. And as it happens he occasionally popped up with goals (admittedly from set pieces mostly if I recall correctly).

[Funky_Gibbons]

I thought he was called the 'lighthouse' because he was tall and thin with an internal spiral staircase.

Plus he wore a miners hat with a light on the front at night. 

[tubby]

Thought the lighthouse thing was because he was a tall object that spotted danger and sorted it out.

[Elzar]

Thought the lighthouse thing was because he was a tall object that spotted danger and sorted it out.

I thought it was because he lived on Ocean Drive

[Sangria]

I thought he was called the 'lighthouse' because he was tall and thin with an internal spiral staircase.

http://www.redandwhiterooftop.com

[Funky_Gibbons]

I'm not sure it was (or was only about his off the ball work, it may have referred to both), but feel free to prove me wrong if you have a sense of where the relevant interviews/ articles are.

That was just my understanding of the nickname, a lighthouse is something that warns of nearby danger so I always thought of it as being a way to describe how Fabinho (used) to be able to read the game and snuff out any danger before it got close to our goal.

Whatever the truth there though, Fabinho was never only a destroyer for us. At his best (because this did drop off along with everything else), he was press resistant and a progressive passer of the ball. And as it happens he occasionally popped up with goals (admittedly from set pieces mostly if I recall correctly).

I'm not sure Fabinho was ever that great at progressive passes but he was than just a 'destroyer'.

[Dr. Beaker]

I thought it was because his home in Brazil was made out of balsa wood.