Topic: Fusion

[TepidT2O]

NIF in the US seems to have achieved net energy gain

https://www.ft.com/content/4b6f0fab-66ef-4e33-adec-cfc345589dc7

Early reports suggesting 120% of energy inputted is outputted.. but the energy seems to have damaged some of the equipment

These have not been confirmed by NIF as yet, and they are taking time to check carefully

This isn’t some miracle break through, but it is a big step forwards and an historical landmark that I suspect future generations will look back on.

[[new username under construction]]

Yes, Yes but we're getting more energy out, that means we HAVE to charge more for it

[TepidT2O]

Well here we are… confirmed…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63950962

But there’s a catch.. (lots of catches actually)

This 120% return is 120% of the energy entering the Hohlraum (the tiny metal container the reaction occurs in)

But shit loads (I believe 3.4*10^6 Mega shit loads) of energy is wasted that never even makes it into the Hohlraum.  So whilst theoretically we are at 120% net energy gain, in reality we are a country fucking mile from it.

And in addition firing loads of lasers at a target isn’t really a great way to build a power station!

On a more positive note, there’s clearly been some breakthrough in how they are performing fusion, as they are getting a doubling of energy released year on year right now and if that can continue? Who knows..l..?

[reddebs]

Does this mean some crackpot can eventually destroy the whole world in a death star style explosion rather than just destroying bits of it as we are now?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Does this mean some crackpot can eventually destroy the whole world in a death star style explosion rather than just destroying bits of it as we are now?

Thats just one science experiment gone wrong.
Fusion is just the right tool for that.

[liverbloke]

we need more investment in science - and not in a military way either

advancement can only be achieved by working together and putting our money and minds together

so yes, we're all going to hell in a giant black hole death star handcart unfortunately

[TepidT2O]

Does this mean some crackpot can eventually destroy the whole world in a death star style explosion rather than just destroying bits of it as we are now?

No

We’ve been able to blow up the whole world using fusion for 70 years….

Now? This is controlled fusion, it fails safe!

we need more investment in science - and not in a military way either

advancement can only be achieved by working together and putting our money and minds together

so yes, we're all going to hell in a giant black hole death star handcart unfortunately

The problem with fusion is an engineering problem.  Making it work and then keeping it work is phenomenally tricky…as we can see.

[Red Raw]

we need more investment in science - and not in a military way either

advancement can only be achieved by working together and putting our money and minds together

so yes, we're all going to hell in a giant black hole death star handcart unfortunately

Unfortunately the development of nuclear is inextricably linked to the military. The production of plutonium (for bombs) at facilities like Windscale in the UK and Hanford in the US from the 1940s was very much designed as a by product of the energy industry. Pulling fuel from reactors prematurely gave access the plutonium that arises from its partial decay.

This particular breakthrough was not a prototype power plant, it was carried out at the National Ignition Facility (NIF) which is effectively a weapons testing facility (https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/what-is-nif) so it is safe to assume that the laser technology used in this experiment also has military applications.

Of course fusion research is important (as are many other avenues of inquiry) and progress is welcome, but the media hype surrounding it is inversely proportional to the contribution it can make to our energy system in the foreseeable future. The proof of principle, if verified (the accountancy is very complicated), is neither sustainable nor scalable in its current form as it is based on individual bursts from high powered lasers which by all accounts cannot be maintained continuously.

Mundane technologies meanwhile such as insulation, energy efficiency and existing renewables are mostly with us already, the major breakthroughs we really need are social and political.

[liverbloke]

Unfortunately the development of nuclear is inextricably linked to the military. The production of plutonium (for bombs) at facilities like Windscale in the UK and Hanford in the US from the 1940s was very much designed as a by product of the energy industry. Pulling fuel from reactors prematurely gave access the plutonium that arises from its partial decay.

This particular breakthrough was not a prototype power plant, it was carried out at the National Ignition Facility (NIF) which is effectively a weapons testing facility (https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/what-is-nif) so it is safe to assume that the laser technology used in this experiment also has military applications.

Of course fusion research is important (as are many other avenues of inquiry) and progress is welcome, but the media hype surrounding it is inversely proportional to the contribution it can make to our energy system in the foreseeable future. The proof of principle, if verified (the accountancy is very complicated), is neither sustainable nor scalable in its current form as it is based on individual bursts from high powered lasers which by all accounts cannot be maintained continuously.

Mundane technologies meanwhile such as insulation, energy efficiency and existing renewables are mostly with us already, the major breakthroughs we really need are social and political.

thing is - the 'intelligent' amongst us can't see that that is the 'holy grail' - that is the true 'god particle' ironically

working and progressing as a union of people not some world of bordered megalomaniacal paranoid countries hell bent on suppression and conflict

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Recently I have seemed to have gotten the impression we are significantly closer to Fusion energy that we actually imagine. Nothing imminent of course, but this is no longer a far flung future idea.

Essentially I have gotten the impression that Fusion energy is something that could very possibly become a thing in my lifetime.

[TepidT2O]

Recently I have seemed to have gotten the impression we are significantly closer to Fusion energy that we actually imagine. Nothing imminent of course, but this is no longer a far flung future idea.

Essentially I have gotten the impression that Fusion energy is something that could very possibly become a thing in my lifetime.

Just about… yes…

The science was sorted a long time ago. It’s just an engineering problem to make it work now

[Andy @ Allerton!]

How long until I can lash a "Mr. Fusion" on the back of me Astra?

[KillieRed]

Are the nukes gonna be bigger, better & brighter now?

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Just about… yes…

The science was sorted a long time ago. It’s just an engineering problem to make it work now

Well for my impression to be right (on average male life expectancy) I hope the engineering issues are worked out withing 50 to 60 years. No idea if that's a realistic target or not for said issues.

Then again I am a fat bastard so who knows what my actual lifetime is

[PaulF]

Recently I have seemed to have gotten the impression we are significantly closer to Fusion energy that we actually imagine. Nothing imminent of course, but this is no longer a far flung future idea.

Essentially I have gotten the impression that Fusion energy is something that could very possibly become a thing in my lifetime.

Oh definitely. You just need to give us more money to make our magic beans work 😃.

Jokes aside. Is there something similar to critical mass, in that the reaction can be self sustaining, so the constant laser issue goes away?
Obviously we want some sort of containment field so it can be switched off instantly.

And for those worried about global destruction. I think we've had the nukes to do that for a long time. And even without those we're doing a damn fine job of destroying they planet.

[liverbloke]

god, alien, overseer, great a'tuin, man in the shack - so what have you guys been up to all these years?

man - yeh well we first threw stones at each other

yes?

then we hit each other with sticks

hmm?

then we shot each other with arrows

i see

then we cut each other with metal

go on...

then we shot each other with bullets

o-kay...

then we blew each other up with bombs

right..

then we made bigger bombs and killed more of each other

continue

and then we made even bigger bombs - big enough to blow us all up

riiiight... so have you been up to anything else or is that just it?

a few other things but basically that's it

[TepidT2O]

Fusion bombs have existed for 70 years..they’re easy…

Harnessing fusion? That’s hard


Harnessing fusion isn’t about nuclear bombs … it’s about hard science

[PaulF]

Fusion bombs have existed for 70 years..they’re easy…

Harnessing fusion? That’s hard


Harnessing fusion isn’t about nuclear bombs … it’s about hard science

Not THAT easy. You need a damn good centrifuge for starters.
And there's a reason why there's only a handful of nuclear powers.

But on the whole Tepid's right. There's countries with enough fusion bombs already to play global thermonuclear war instead of tic-tac-toe.

[liverbloke]

Not THAT easy. You need a damn good centrifuge for starters.
And there's a reason why there's only a handful of nuclear powers.

But on the whole Tepid's right. There's countries with enough fusion bombs already to play global thermonuclear war instead of tic-tac-toe.

so do thermonuclear bombs need fission to initiate the fusion process?

[TepidT2O]

so do thermonuclear bombs need fission to initiate the fusion process?

Yes, of course. But as you know, there is no need for any fissile material for fusion reactors.
Which is nice.

[PaulF]

Could we use fusion reactors to get rid of landfill waste? Would it be so hot in there it just burns the crap out of everything?
I get that making fusion work at all is hard enough without my mad ideas.

[TepidT2O]

Could we use fusion reactors to get rid of landfill waste? Would it be so hot in there it just burns the crap out of everything?
I get that making fusion work at all is hard enough without my mad ideas.

Errrrr we already have incinerators if we want to do this!

[Red Raw]

Yes, of course. But as you know, there is no need for any fissile material for fusion reactors.
Which is nice.

Although, as there is little/no naturally occuring tritium due to its short half life, most tritium is sourced from nuclear reactors.

[TepidT2O]

Although, as there is little/no naturally occuring tritium due to its short half life, most tritium is sourced from nuclear reactors.

Currently true of course.  But on making a functioning fusion reactor, the reactor itself could be used to breed the tritium required..
So, this problem should only be of concern in the interim period.

[Red Raw]

Could we use fusion reactors to get rid of landfill waste? Would it be so hot in there it just burns the crap out of everything?
I get that making fusion work at all is hard enough without my mad ideas.

Plasma gasifiers do this using waste as a fuel to generate electricity - the high temperatures are supposed to prevent the production of highly toxic dioxins and furans than can be associated with traditional incinerators or energy from waste plants. The process/economics are both complicated and so while there has been a lot of research, there are only a handfull of operational plants.

[PaulF]

Cheers red raw. I've just realised my idea sounds like the thing that powers the flux capacitor.