Topic: Liverpool 2-1 West Ham: a view on tactics

[Paul Tomkins]

I think you're quoting the wrong statistic here. Rather than looking at average number of points won, you should look at average offset of points from the same fixture in the previous year. This will allow you to incorporate some notion of the difficulty of the fixture into how well the team actully did. For instance, if Gerrard and Alonso were played in 6 games, and we won every game, but they were fixtures which we won the previous year too, how much have we learned about the Gerrard and Alonso partnership? I think we've learned little.

I agree that would probably help in some respects. However, you can pick faults with that, too. It won't take into account how the opposition has strengthened/weakended, nor their form at the time of playing them, and countless other variables (do Wigan replace Crystal Palace or another relegated team?).

Maybe it's something we can work into next year's, along with a few other things people have suggested on RAWK, if we can make the results clearer, rather than complicating them.

There's no *perfect* way of using stats, at least without running into 20,000 pages covering every conceivable variant, but we hope we've given a really thorough examination of the team in 180 pages. The point here, however, was that we weren't defensively sound with Gerrard and Alonso, and I was pointing out that we were - no matter who we played.

We conceded less against United, Newcastle, Man City and Wigan (if you swap them for Palace) with Gerrard and Alonso last season than we did in those fixtures in 2004/05. Each time we let in goals that season, but kept clean sheets last season. So in those games (at least) there was an improvement, and it shows the Reds *can* keep it tight with Gerrard and Alonso, which was my original point. Of course, with wingers in the side rather than solid wide midfielders, we're always going to be more exposed, so I do agree with the very first post to some extent.

I'd also appreciate it if you'd tell us the number of games these things are based on.

The number of games? It's based on all games last season, and rated in minutes rather than games, for greater accuracy 

[Paul Tomkins]

Paul,

I was talking about the league in specific.

You have mentioned only 3 league games there in 77 (under Benitez).  That is a very small number.

Actually, I think you'd find it's a fairly big number all things considered. Very few teams who keep clean sheets in nearly 2/3rd of all league games, as we did last season, will need to come from behind. There were only 16 league games when we conceded, and some of those were when the game was already won. We weren't behind very often last season, let's remember.

If you look at the figures, very few teams come from behind to win more than once or twice a season. After all, we've not lost a game in which we scored first since Feb 2005, so it's easy to see that once any team takes the lead it's fairly sure of getting at least a point.

Btw, I forgot Olympiakos, another cup game. While cup football is different, it's still relevant if it's top-level opposition. Only Luton fail to meet that criteria. As a team, we have proven we can come from behind, having done so about ten times under Rafa, compared to none in the preceeding five years. However, hopefully we won't need to do so in the next 36 games, if we get 36 clean sheets

But as we agree on, should we need to we now have a number of great options to change the course of a game.

[Hank Scorpio]

If we can, literally, build upon last season's success then I feel we will win The Premiership this season (i.e maintain defensive stability with addition of attacking talent).

However I do feel that a slight lapse in our defensive play, perhaps for having to compensate for the new attacking options will not have such a great effect on our team (i.e a typical 1-0 win last season may be replaced with a 3/4-1 win).  This lapse may be brought on, for example by playing Aurelio left back instead of Riise.

[Paul Tomkins]

i.e a typical 1-0 win last season may be replaced with a 3/4-1 win. 

I agree. But we might shut up shop at 2-0, if we get two in front, which we've not done so far this season.

We were always going to miss Riise and Carragher. No team can afford to lose its most reliable defenders.

[Gnurglan]

Last season we were superb defensively, compact and difficult to break down, straight out of the Martin O'Neill how to defend handbook, but there were moans from many about Gerrard not playing in the middle and that we wasn't attacking enough. So, some fans need to make their minds up; do they want Gerrard in the middle, where they say it's his best position, and have a more attacking, expansive approach? Or do we play him on the right instead of Pennant, losing the width, and play Sissoko in the middle and have a stronger defensive base?

Personally I think it's too early to make any kind of judgment on this, as both Xabi and Gerrard are still way off match fitness.

The more we want Gerrard to attack, the more defensive cover do we need behind him. It doesn't have to be defensive cover in terms of CMs. We could for instance play JAR at LM instead of Kewell/Gonzales. That would give the midfield more defensive stability. But I don't think we can play for instance Gonzales-Alonso-Gerrard-Pennant and expect to get defensive stability and a Gerrard who joins in with every possible attack. That may work in a game or two, but I believe that midfield would be vulnerable. Because it lacks balance. It's too attacking.
It is very tricky to get it right.

I can see why Rafa wanted Alves, a RB/RM. He probably wanted to have an attacking threat down the wing, but also a player with a more defensive mindset than Pennant. That would have given Gerrard (playing in CM) a better attacking platform.

[Paul Tomkins]

The more we want Gerrard to attack, the more defensive cover do we need behind him. It doesn't have to be defensive cover in terms of CMs. We could for instance play JAR at LM instead of Kewell/Gonzales. That would give the midfield more defensive stability. But I don't think we can play for instance Gonzales-Alonso-Gerrard-Pennant and expect to get defensive stability and a Gerrard who joins in with every possible attack. That may work in a game or two, but I believe that midfield would be vulnerable. Because it lacks balance. It's too attacking.
It is very tricky to get it right. 

Possibly. But it's impossible to judge the balance without Carragher and Riise, who comprise 50% of our first-choice back four. They provide a more solid platform than any alternatives. So instantly we can afford to have more attacking players ahead of them.

It's also horses-for-courses. We'd probably never play Gonzales-Alonso-Gerrard-Pennant in super-tough games, at least not to start with. Riise could well play in these on the left of midfield, as you suggest, and/or Gerrard on the right of midfield.

[fowlermagic]

Good debate as both sides have very valid points. From the few games we have seen so far I think Momo has been the quickest one off the blocks while Alonso & Gerrard appear to be a little stale. Thats probably due to their World Cup games while Momo was sitting back, resting and has a week or two more preseason under his belt. I still bet you by the time they get to the finish line Alonso & Gerrard will prove themselves to be vital while Momo will be pushing them hard.

Anyway lets have a review of this by mid season as you can hardly fail someone before they even get comfortable in their chair.

[Vulmea]

Think anyone advocating two wingers needs to look at some stats of how successful we or anybody have been playing that way in the past……

The idea that any two central players could be successful defensively when they are not protected by the wide players or up against 3 quality players is at best misguided.

Xabi’s defensive game improved last year but the lad lacks pace and the ability to turn. He is a very intelligent player and is improving but it still means that he can and is caught out of position on occasion and far more than you would want for a  defensive midfield player – he does not provide the blanket coverage that somebody like Hamann or Makalele would but makes up for this with his tremendous distribution.

The fact that Gerrard and Alonso are not an ideal central midfield partnership may be demonstrated by how infrequently over two seasons they have been used as a two and when they have been, Istanbul being a prime example how badly they can be exposed. I appreciate part of this is because we had nobody at right midfield and Xabi’s long lay off the season before but if nothing else it illustrates how deceptive stats can be. The suggestion that they are statistically our best partnership I’m afraid reflects how again how badly statistics can reflect the actual game. What it might be an indication of is that against poor teams or those lacking attacking ambition or craft we can play Alonso and Gerrard (or indeed any 2) in central midfield and not have to worry too much.

Sissoko complements Xabi very well he provides the energy that Xabi lacks – he gets about the pitch allowing Alonso to patrol the areas where he is comfortable and limits the exposure that his lack of pace and mobility generate. Gerrard also has this energy and could play that type of destructive game but it would be a waste of his attacking abilities. Sissoko also allows Gerrard to get forward without having to worry about covering in midfield. The three blend very well.

Ideally Gerrard would have developed into the perfect all round player but his own drive appears to be to focus more on the attacking side of the game and the glory and high profile acclaim that follows. I’m not having a go at him for that. Infact I think its natural for him to do so but its an opportunity missed in my opinion. As things stand, Gerrard and Alonso need a third player to glue them together. The stats on how productive the midfield trio were last season I would expect to make very good reading especially as Rafa himself is on record as saying they form the ideal midfield. However this may not be the case because as we know out wide we had limited options and our forward line badly misfired last season. Two more reasons why drawing any conclusions about our tactical formations last season are fraught with peril.
 
Which brings us back to 2 wingers, 4231 etc etc.

The idea that we have a first XI is old hat we have many first XI’s depending on who we are playing and to some extent where we are playing. Our preferred formation will be 4231 in some games, 352 in other, 442 in more and is some games all three. When we play 442 and its against a poor midfield Xabi and Gerrard will be fine otherwise they are not imo the preferred central midfield two. To make it work against better opposition they need a third player – that does not necessitate a third central midfielder – having a more defensive minded and hardworking wide player on one side would allow us to play with Pennant or Gonzalez as an out and out winger on the other –a ll my opinion obviously and not a stat in sight.

[Paul Tomkins]

The fact that Gerrard and Alonso are not an ideal central midfield partnership may be demonstrated by how infrequently over two seasons they have been used as a two and when they have been, Istanbul being a prime example how badly they can be exposed. I appreciate part of this is because we had nobody at right midfield and Xabi’s long lay off the season before but if nothing else it illustrates how deceptive stats can be. The suggestion that they are statistically our best partnership I’m afraid reflects how again how badly statistics can reflect the actual game. What it might be an indication of is that against poor teams or those lacking attacking ambition or craft we can play Alonso and Gerrard (or indeed any 2) in central midfield and not have to worry too much.

Two points.

First, this Istanbul stuff is misleading. The entire team started very nervously and was overrun initially, and it was only when we went with THREE central midfielders that we took control. Had we started with *any* two players, including Hamann, we'd still have been fucked as Milan were quite simply on fire until they took their eye off the ball at half-time, and when our extra man in there helped us match them.

Second, why does this issue mean statistics badly reflect the game? That's misleading; to me they tell it how it is in this instance (I know that's not always the case).

Gerrard and Alonso are clearly the most natural pairing in an old-fashioned 4-4-2: one holds, one goes. Between them they offer everything, whereas the other combinations have bigger faults.

Xabi sits back while Gerrard bombs forward, as in the old days before it became more commonplace to have two sitting midfielders. With Sissoko and Alonso you would not get anywhere near enough goals from what is an important area in most teams for goals, as neither gets into the box, while neither Gerrard nor Sissoko is ideal at slowing the game down, so they'd be risky together on that score at least. Both of those can be too rash with their passing, whereas Xabi is the master of tempo. If he had to, Gerrard could play something like Sissoko, with energy, pace and tackling, but Sissoko could never pass, create and score like Gerrard.

Of course, all three together are nigh-on perfect. No one's disputing that. As I've said a number of times, that they fare less well statistically is due to the nature of the opposition; however, that does not mean Gerrard and Alonso, as a pair, only played in easy games, as they didn't.

Let's not confuse the issue here (and it may just be me doing that!) to make it between the best midfield two, and playing all three in central areas - which will always be better in a number of ways, not least on numerical advantage.

Ideally I want to see all three of Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko on the pitch at all times, although I'm not sure how without sacrificing someone else who's important. However, if push came to shove and one had to be left on the bench in a one-off game, I think it would be Sissoko who'd sit things out.

[howes hound]

I think the initial post is spot-on in identifying two key issues. Around the midway point of the second half I remember thinking shit, they've got us by the scruff just in front of the back line. Whether it was the absence of a Momo/Didi player or something else is open to debate. I found myself wondering about the fitness of some of our players, Gerrard and Alonso in particular.
As for the West Ham goal, fluke as it was, it was deja vu all over again. How many times towards the end of last season did we see a late ball out to the other team's right wing catch us short of cover? I was blaming Riise last year but now I'm starting to wonder if there's something wrong with our defensive formation/tactics. It can't have escaped other teams that thats were many of the opportunities against us are coming from.

[Vulmea]

unfortunately what it suggests to me is that we are missing a certain type of player whether thats a freudian slip (can you have one of those when not talking sex I aint sure) in the last para of Pauls Tomkins's's post I'm not sure but that type of out and out defensive midfielder is something we lack - somebody to come on and close a game down - Alonso is not that type of player but Didi might not have been that type of player at 24 I guess.

Sissoko is a great destructibe player but he can't sit deep and hold it would be a waste of his main asset, energy.

As things stand playing 442 it suggests to me Momo when we need some aggression and energy say against Sheffield United or Alonso against a passing team like West Ham. Against better teams I think all three have to play.

I'd agree Alonso and Gerrard should be the best combination when looking at it in isolation but as pointed out far better than I could thankfully we dont have to stick with 442 and can switch it about.

[Paul Tomkins]

unfortunately what it suggests to me is that we are missing a certain type of player whether thats a freudian slip (can you have one of those when not talking sex I aint sure) in the last para of Pauls Tomkins's's post I'm not sure but that type of out and out defensive midfielder is something we lack - somebody to come on and close a game down - Alonso is not that type of player but Didi might not have been that type of player at 24 I guess.

Duly altered.

I have to admit I was very surprised to see Didi released. With a central midfield three used most weeks, he seemed the perfect reserve.

But maybe Rafa was intending on more 4-4-2 this season, and so Didi would find it harder to get games, with only two places up for grabs? We certainly have better strikers, and two up front seems logical with that lot. We also have wingers to deliver to them, and it makes sense in many ways to have more than one target to hit.

But as ever, "possibilities"...

[a partridge in seat_5c]

The idea that any two central players could be successful defensively when they are not protected by the wide players or up against 3 quality players is at best misguided.

Xabi’s defensive game improved last year but the lad lacks pace and the ability to turn. He is a very intelligent player and is improving but it still means that he can and is caught out of position on occasion and far more than you would want for a  defensive midfield player – he does not provide the blanket coverage that somebody like Hamann or Makalele would but makes up for this with his tremendous distribution.

spot on...and yet you follow it with this...

The fact that Gerrard and Alonso are not an ideal central midfield partnership

name me an ideal central midfield partnership that has existed EVER...just one...

some sort of cross between Matthaus, Tardelli, Ardiles and Souness in one position and some sort of cross between Socrates, Neeskens, Tigana and Okocha in the other

well guess what, they don't bleedin' exist...



when are we gonna put this tedious bollocks to bed...

[Captain Haddock]

Calm down Partridge lad, calm down.....you don't have to browbeat people just because they have a different view to you.

*ducks for cover*

A few quick points.

Completely agree with Gnurglan when he talks about looking at different groups of say 3-4 players and whether they balance each other out. I think it remains to be seen whether team that played on Saturday is sufficiently well balanced between attack and defence.

I think there are ideal partnerships and ideal players. They don't have to be the greatest players in the world but they work perfectly in the team or the system in which they play. McMahon/Whelan or McMahon/Spackman were a perfect pairing in the team that played, because like what Gnurglan said, they balanced out the creativity of Barnes and Beardsley. McMahon couldn't even cement his England place but he did a superb job for us. And Hansen is always banging about how good Whelan was in front of the defence. Spackman probably has to go down as the most underated Liverpool player ever. Aldridge has hardly the worlds greatest striker - couldn't dribble, couldn't pass, no good at shooting from distance - but fecking hell, 25-30 goals each season and perfect finisher for Barnsey's crosses and Beardsley passes. All "ideal" players. Someone mentioned Pettit and Viera. Again they couldn't pass for toffee, had no pace, but they were huge man mountains for Arsenal and gave the flair players likes Overmars and Berkampf the platform upon which to play.

Lies, damed lies and statistics. I'm kinda with Snez on this one. You can find statistics to say almost anything or statistics that seem meaningful but don't say anything at all. What I don't like about these lists of statistics is that they don't show how effective that player is in the real world. Momo is lightyears ahead of Stevie or Xabi in terms of his defensive game but if you look at the tackles list, he's nowhere to be seen, with Xabi looking like the world's greatest defensive midfielder. Momo spends most of his time winning loose balls and snapping up the ball even before his opponents even have a chance to put their foot on it. That's as effective if not more so than Xabi sticking out a foot to win the ball when there are 5 Liverpool players around to put the the opposing player under pressure. Feck that, we all know that Xabi, when he's on top of his game, is the world's best passer....but hang on sec, that honour goes to Gilberto. Do me a favour. 

[Hank Scorpio]

Gerrard and Alonso are clearly the most natural pairing in an old-fashioned 4-4-2: one holds, one goes. Between them they offer everything, whereas the other combinations have bigger faults.

Gerrard and Alonso as a pair have everything between them to be a World Class midfield combination.

Alonso offers his 'game intelliegence' and passing which will allow a team to establish control within a match while Gerrard brings strength, pace and drive which is devastating in attacking areas.

Furthermore Alonso naturally holds while Gerrard naturally gets forward. 

On paper they have everything but are yet to flourish as a partnership.  Perhaps they need more time and games together.

[Vulmea]

name me an ideal central midfield partnership that has existed EVER...just one...

......bit of a selective edit there I said 'may' not be ideal

Ideal central midfield partnerships........Keane and Scholes would have come close in their day - with Keane providing the solid base - well supported by Beckham's hard work on the right and Giggs forcing the opposition back on the left.

to be ideal you have to consider the team around the pair and how they complement each other - the arsenal pairing of Veira and Petit had to be solid, break up the opposition and give their attacking players the ball, they did it brilliantly. Neither could pass, neither was great at getting forward.

We've had Kennedy, Souness, Whelan, Molby, McMahon all players that could play as part of an 'ideal central midfield' for the teams they were selected for

Common in all cases is the ability to defend the back four, keep the ball, breakup opposition attacks and be the platform for launching the teams own attack, Gerrard and Alonso simply don't protect the back four enough not yet anyways. If you ask Gerrard to do it you restrict his game, If you ask Alonso to do it, he lacks the experience, pace and athleticism to cover right across the back four.

Sissoko and Alonso provide more defensive ability because Momo does not try and force the play in the opposition half as Gerrard does and supports Alonso's lack of mobility with his boundles energy but  together they lack the ability to punish the opposition - with this years additions that might no longer matter as we have the flair out wide and up front to do the business

Gerrard and Sissoko together and you'd never know where either of them where........

2 'wingers' to me implies 'ideally' two defensive minded central players

one winger and one wide midfielder implies 'ideally' one of the central midfielders  getting forward when needed with the other sitting deep






 


 

[a partridge in seat_5c]

its easy to be a hindsight smartass and reel off midfield partnerships that just happen to have played in (occasional in Arsenal's case) title winning sides...Alonso and Gerrard have got miles more to their collective games than Vieira and Petit who were basically a pair of spoilers...if that's what you want try Carsley and Co down the road...

if you're not happy with Alonso and Gerrard then you may as well just stop being interested in LFC cos it doesn't get any better than this so you're going to spend the rest of your life moaning and dreaming of perfect midfield combinations that don't exist...enjoy these players while they're both still playing for us cos 10 years down the line we could be back to the likes of Mike Marsh and Paul Stewart...

rant over (for the moment)

[Yorkykopite]

its easy to be a hindsight smartass and reel off midfield partnerships that just happen to have played in (occasional in Arsenal's case) title winning sides...Alonso and Gerrard have got miles more to their collective games than Vieira and Petit who were basically a pair of spoilers...if that's what you want try Carsley and Co down the road...

if you're not happy with Alonso and Gerrard then you may as well just stop being interested in LFC cos it doesn't get any better than this so you're going to spend the rest of your life moaning and dreaming of perfect midfield combinations that don't exist...enjoy these players while they're both still playing for us cos 10 years down the line we could be back to the likes of Mike Marsh and Paul Stewart...

rant over (for the moment)

Good rant.

[Vulmea]

its easy to be a hindsight smartass and reel off midfield partnerships that just happen to have played in (occasional in Arsenal's case) title winning sides...Alonso and Gerrard have got miles more to their collective games than Vieira and Petit who were basically a pair of spoilers...if that's what you want try Carsley and Co down the road...

if you're not happy with Alonso and Gerrard then you may as well just stop being interested in LFC cos it doesn't get any better than this so you're going to spend the rest of your life moaning and dreaming of perfect midfield combinations that don't exist...enjoy these players while they're both still playing for us cos 10 years down the line we could be back to the likes of Mike Marsh and Paul Stewart...

rant over (for the moment)

As rants go thats pretty small but as I keep telling the Mrs size isn't important.

You asked for an ideal partnership and it took me about 10 seconds to think of a couple  - that isn't being a 'smart ass' its being polite - you need to up your meds a little

I also tried to point out that 'ideal' can mean a number of things - Graveson, Carsley and Cahill proved a pretty ideal combination for Everton as it happens when they finished above us in the league - defensive player, hardworking box to box player who could get them goals and a decent passer and creator.

Just because I don't think SG and Alonso are 'ideal' does not mean I dont rate them as individual players only that I've got eyes in my head.

Theres always talk about balance thats because its important - probably more important than the individual quality of a player -
just because Alonso and Gerrard are both great players does not mean they form an ideal partnership - they may do - Alonso may improve his defensive game still further, position himself better stop getting caught the wrong side of a player, Gerrard may time his runs better becaome more disciplined,  stranger things have happened like John Barnes becoming a midfield general but not very often

You wouldn't put Fat Frank and Gerrard in the same team as a twosome - unless you're as rich as Croesus and don't care what happens - they are not 'ideal'

Mullins and Reo-Coker provide an 'ideal' partnership for West Ham - they have the defensive ability and the hard work and rely on Bennayoun and Etherington to provide the flair from outwide - the combination works they play good attractive football but it leaves them exposed and good attractive football does not always deliver results. Throw Bowyer in there and take away one of the  strikers and they would be a far harder proposition and win more games than they do now but it wouldn't be as pretty.

To go with Carrick - United need a high energy defensive player that then allows them to exploit Giggs and Ronaldo on the flanks. They have Fletcher and O'shea not the greatest players in the world but good enough to help them finish above us last season.

Gilberto is great at covering across the back four but rarely ventures past the half way line and can't pass beyond 5 yards he needs somebody who can get forward and pick a pass alongside him - Fabregas

An 'ideal' partnership is where two player complement one another and allow the team to function using their combined abilities - Sissoko and Alonso form a defensive wall across midfield, have great energy and can pass beautifully - they are an excellent combination but they need flair and that has to come from the flanks - last season Gerrard stepped up to the mark and provided that.

Put Gerrard in alongiside Alonso and you lose Sissoko's destructive power, you lose the solid wall across midfield because Gerrard goes walkabout trying to force the game - if you do that, the defensive ability has to come from somewhere else - either a more defensive minded player with high energy levels like Gilberto or Makalele or Hamann  or getting one of the wide players to stay back or in what looks like Rafa's preferred tactic you shove a third player in there, drop a striker to make up the deficit and shut yer hole.. which brings me neatly back to you












Gerrard and Alonso is not 'ideal' imo - they've played about 10 games as a pairing in 2 years and when combined with Sissoko they blend perfectly -  yep I guess its time to stop supporting my club of over 40 years and go play bowls-

[Captain Haddock]

That's a quality reply Vulmea 

I think it goes to back to something mentioned in another thread. There's no doubt that a midfield of Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard would conquer any opposing midfield that they came across and is stronger than just having Alonso and Gerrard in the middle.

The conumdrum is whether a midfield of those 3 would detract from other aspects of our play, because one of out of Pennant /Gonzalez (Kewell) / Bellamy / Kuyt (Crouch) would have to be dropped. Do we sacrifice wing play for a stronger central midfield or do we sacrifice a stronger midfield for an extra wing or striker?

I reckon its going to be a case of seeing a midfield three against teams that have a strong midfield eg. Chelsea and a midfield two against the weaker teams. I also reckon that Benitez is going to have a quite a bit more pressure on him this year to pick the right combinations for the right opposition.

[howes hound]

Interesting thoughts there, Vulmea, and your basic argument is sound. Three top class players (Gerrard, Alonso, Sissoko) don't necessarily don't make a great midfield. Between those three there seems to be some confusion of roles. Lots of talent and energy, but it doesn't quite gel.
If you're a 40-year supporter and obviously not too proud to look across the park when it's warranted, you might just have caught the Harvey/Kendal era. Even I used to pay occasionally to watch those two in action, a classic case of complementing chemistry and style.

[Vulmea]

 HH yep I do have the years to have witnessed Harvey and Kendall,  to be honest the blues have had some excellent midfielders over the years and with my brother being a true blue not one of these bitter fools I have to acknowledge the fact more than I'd like and your right about that 'classic case of complimentary chemistry' nice phrase. They were excellent but without either being brilliant individually ( very common trend in their midfield) a definate case of the team being better than the sum of its parts. The only combination we have I can see that produces that effect is Sissoko and Alonso where each players strengths compensates for the others weakness (Gerrard and Hamann had a similar balance to it and if it had been better supported out wide could have been a tremendous pairing). Thats not to say its the only way it can work just that imo put those two together and you get a better result than Gerrard and Alonso or Gerrard and Sissoko although Gerrard without a doubt is the best individual player.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

I also tried to point out that 'ideal' can mean a number of things - Graveson, Carsley and Cahill proved a pretty ideal combination for Everton as it happens

An 'ideal' partnership is where two player complement one another

so what is it ?

is a partnership 3 people or 2 ? you seem a little confused...

As rants go thats pretty small but as I keep telling the Mrs size isn't important.

in what looks like Rafa's preferred tactic you shove a third player in there...

you seem to be obsessed with the menage-a-trois, whether on the field or elsewhere...

[WesternRed]

Leaving aside the taunting / banter (delete as appropriate  ) - there is one might encouraging thought nobody has mentioned.  All 3 of the players are 1 year older, having that much longer to get settled into their roles, and are all 3 yet to reach their peak!  So they should be getting much better at it as time goes by...  I know I haven't put that right, but you know what I mean.

[Hank Scorpio]

At this present time I feel that Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko are all necessities in our 1st XI.   I feel that all 3 players provide us with the right balance required for a successful midfield.  Below is a summary of their abilities.

Gerrard (Determination, Goal Threat, Pace, Passing, Strength, Tackling) – Attacking Midfielder.

Alonso (Game Intelligence, Passing) - Playmaker

Sissoko (Aerial Ability, Determination, Pace, Stamina, Strength, Tackling) – Defensive Midfielder

When all 3 play we are able to win the ball back in the middle (Sissoko), keep the ball and build attacks (Alonso) and score goals from midfield (Gerrard).  If you remove one these players then we are lacking something.

Obviously the downside of this is that we have to sacrifice either a striker or a winger.   

[eryder]

I like it when we go a goal down ever since Gerrards howler against Olympiakos. When Man U or Chelsea do it now they F***ing better watch out when OI EATS ME SPINAGE. Ug Ug Ug Ug!

[Red number seven]

Well said. You can't have perfect flair and perfect solidity. At least not straightaway. It takes time to get right, and will never be 100% perfect. If you go forward in numbers, as we all want, then you can't have eight men behind the ball at the same time.

What I hated about Houllier's tactics, especially towards the end, was that no one ever left his station. It was always rigid 4-4-2 when we were defending, which is fair enough, but we attacked in the same way. Players rarely interchanged to lose their markers, and it was all about the ball over the top while the midfield sat back.

Pace, skill and movement will lead to gaps at the other end of the pitch. Last season we started by drawing too many games, keeping clean sheets but also failing to score; this year we've scored in every game, but not kept a clean sheet. However, we've already beaten two good, attacking sides in West Ham and Chelsea.

To add to that, and continue on the Houllier theme, in my mind on of the reasons the wheels came off for Houllier was that he realised you can't win the league defending, and he tried to change the balance between his excellent defence and his unsupported attack.

We actually played some good football, with a lot of movement between Kewell, Vladi and Stevie early on in his final season, but weren't getting results. He lost his bottle and didn't stick with it, tried to go back to his rigid formation, but found it hard to get the defensive solidity back and the team became bereft of any confidence; we rapidly ended up well out of the title race and struggling for 4th spot.

I think the easiest way in football to get early results is to work your tits off, close down midfield and be dead tight. This will bring some success (depending on the quality of players) but will not bring titles, unless you have devastating game breaking subs to bring on when you're 0-0 with half an hour left (like Chelsea with Robben, Duff, Gudjohnsen, etc)

The hardest thing is to progress from that to become more expansive, whilst retaining good defensive shape. Rafa set up a beautifully balanced system at Valencia that allowed controlled pass and move football without gambling too much and sacrificing solidity. They were the most complete side I saw us play in Houllier's tenure.

I think he is trying - and succeeding - to do the same for LFC.

[Red number seven]

its easy to be a hindsight smartass and reel off midfield partnerships that just happen to have played in (occasional in Arsenal's case) title winning sides...Alonso and Gerrard have got miles more to their collective games than Vieira and Petit who were basically a pair of spoilers...if that's what you want try Carsley and Co down the road...

if you're not happy with Alonso and Gerrard then you may as well just stop being interested in LFC cos it doesn't get any better than this so you're going to spend the rest of your life moaning and dreaming of perfect midfield combinations that don't exist...enjoy these players while they're both still playing for us cos 10 years down the line we could be back to the likes of Mike Marsh and Paul Stewart...

rant over (for the moment)

I fail to see how the original question could have been answered without hindsight...

However, I agree - both top players and a good pair - but only for certain circumstances. Namely, when we need to attack and are prepared to take a gamble.

Otherwise, if there's a better player at breaking up opposition play and preventing counter attacks starting on the planet than Sissoko I'd be surprised. He may be limited in other areas, but he is the hardest working midfielder I think I've seen, and has great pace and incredible strength.

These are very important qualities that I would leave out of the side in very few games.

[Marty McFly]

Alonso and Gerrard are obviously two of the best CMs in the world and I wouldn't swop them for anyone. But agree with the original post and with Vulmea that we are more solid with Sissoko and that he and Alonso provide the best central midfield partnership, with Gerrard just ahead or on the right. Both Stevie and Xabi both want to dictate the play and spread the ball out into wide areas, and we don't need two play-makers.

When you have a player that can play anywhere like Gerrard, he should play where his abilities are most needed. We don't need him in the centre of a midfield two necessarily and altho both he and Xabi are excellent tacklers, the combination of Xabi sitting deep and Sissoko defending higher up the pitch, makes us defensively stronger. Gerrard may be the best of three, and he is definitely better than Fat Frank and Hargreaves - but both Liverpool and England (- I know who gives a shit, but it's an example), seem to have greater balance when Gerrard is moved out of that position into a freer role.

The point is that we need often need Gerrard to play this free role because he delivers goals and assists consistently. You cannot have a sitting central midfielder and one who has a free role, if you are going to play with wingers, unless Gerrard is prepared to play a more disciplined role (which he is capable of but restricts him). As someone said earlier, you can get away with it if you have Riise/Aurelio on the left and an equivalent on the right.. but we now have a plethora of attacking wide options to use, especially on the left.

I will again make the point that Sissoko defends higher up the pitch - and everywhere for that matter - because no one else has mentioned it. This is important as it differentiates his from the kind of holding role that Hamann played in front of the back four and means that he and Alonso are not in eachother's way. He also turns defence into attack, as he tends to come cleanly through tackles with the ball at his feet often in the opposition half, where we can be as little as two passes away from a goal or a goa-scoring opportunity. Added to the fact that he runs on average of 15 miles per game (compared to the league average of 10 miles) - I take these figures from Rafa, and assume that I have remembered them correctly - I fail to see a preferred central pairing that can exclude him against serious opposition.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

I fail to see how the original question could have been answered without hindsight...

because with hindsight you can simply point to any team that has ever won a trophy and claim that it was because of the ideal central midfield partnership and it then becomes slightly difficult to argue with as the poster will simply point to the trophies and it can appear that their argument has a solid foundation...if the poster is convinced of his argument then impress me by identifying an ideal central midfield partnership (outside the top 4 clubs would be more impressive) for the season and we'll see how they get on...
how about a nice little outside bet like Mascherano and Reo-Coker?
 

are we talking about ideal combinations in their own right, or ideal combinations because of the other players in the side ? take Keane and Scholes, and Vieira and Petit...because Scholes is almost the antithesis of Petit, it is difficult to see how both of these combinations can be seen as ideal in their own right as the 2 pairings are so fundamentally different...United's has a defender and an attacker, Arsenal's 2 defenders (in simplified terms)...so it can only be that they were ideal for their own side...

at this point, bringing in the rest of the side, it starts to be incredibly dificult to argue for or against the effect of the midfield 2, as there are so many other variables to consider and any argument is likely to disappear up its own arse, if it hasn't done so already...

However, I agree - both top players and a good pair - but only for certain circumstances. Namely, when we need to attack and are prepared to take a gamble.

Alonso and Gerrard only for certain circumstances ? that's cock-eyed to me...we're Liverpool, we MUST be looking to roll teams, especially at home, not pissing our pants at the thought of everyone that we've got to play and then sending for Momo...I don't see how anyone can say playing with Alonso and Gerrard is a gamble...I hate to drag Paul's stats up again (kerr-ching!!) as I'll get accused of getting bungs, but when he says the partnership of Alonso and Gerrard brought us 2.5 points per game, Championship form, that is simple unadulterated fact, and if it flies in the face of what people's "eyes tell them" then perhaps they need to re-assess what their eyes are telling them ?

the simple fact is we NEED to be getting 2.5 points per game this season to stand any chance of challenging for the title...so we need to be winning games...so we need to be offensive in nature, set up to score goals...the combination of Alonso and Sissoko is simply too defensive for me...fine for some games, the relatively few toughies, but not for the majority...

it seems slightly ludicrous to me that a combination of Alonso and Gerrard is somehow seen as lightweight...Alonso's defensive stats are impressive since he joined and improving, and Gerrard isn't exactly a shrinking violet...

but we could go on like this round and round all season and we probably will...I find it tiresome, and can't see why people can't just let our excellent manager solve this "problem" for us, and sit back and appreciate the majestic talents of Alonso, Sissoko and Gerrard in whatever combination Benitez sees fit to apply them, which led me to starting another thread entirely...

[Bossmann]

Good posts all around. Regarding if could or should play 3-5-2 I´ve noticed that we actually do it all the time. In every game when our defenders/Reina has the ball either Finnan or Riise move up some 15-25 meters while the three remaining defenders spread wide.

That´s a simple yet effective way to create a advantage during your build-up play since we not get a extra body in mdfield our remaining three defenders can also switch flanks much faster then if the ball was to go through four players instead.

[XPeriment626]

This argument seems to circle around solidity in midfield versus attacking flair. Those in Paul's camp feel that Gerrard-Alonso brings a good mix of both, while those in Vulmea's camp believe that this combo brings too much instability due to its excessively offensive slant, sacrificing defensive solidity. Sissoko-Alonso becomes the preferred option, with Gerrard wide on the right or in front as an attacker.

I'm tempted to go with the Sissoko-Alonso angle because both players are so obviously the best in what they do that it is a no-brainer to see how they complement one another. Plus, they cancel out each other's weaknesses to some extent. However, I think I favour Paul's argument. Some things need to be pointed out:

a) The success of Sissoko-Alonso last season was very much related to Gerrard being on the right, or in front. Gerrard is much more than a typical winger or in-the-hole midfielder. There's no way Robben or Scholes (at his prime) can influence a game the way Gerrard can, and they certainly can't defend to save their lives. The sheer energy that Gerrard brought to the offense more than made up for Alonso's sitting deep coupled with Sissoko's less than enthusiastic forays into the box. If you use Sissoko-Alonso without Gerrard on the pitch (as some have been advocating with this season's wingers) I doubt we will be as effective as last season. You really get one style of play - diagonal ball to the flanks, cross for the strikers. Gerrard's overall movement and shooting will be greatly missed, especially in the "hole" behind the strikers.

b) Sissoko's main contribution is in winning the ball. This presumes you've lost it in the first place. I find that we surrender possession much less easily when Gerrard is on the ball than when Sissoko is on it. In Rafa's world, we hold the ball, control the tempo, choke the opponent and set up the killer pass. Sissoko's ball winning skills are undoubtedly the finest around, but I'd rather we didn't have to win back the ball as often. See Barcelona v Chelsea, our friends from London couldn't even touch the ball for long periods of time and got their vaunted defence cut to pieces on several occasions.

c) There is the added threat of shots from midfield when Gerrard is in the centre. Teams tend to lose their shape more often because they know they can't sit back when he is lurking in that gap between the defence and midfield. People don't close down Sissoko when he is on the ball, they do for Gerrard, which tends to create space for other Liverpool players. Teams tend to defend deeper when he is in the middle, which is always a good sign for us.

d) We are more vulnerable to counterattacks with Gerrard-Alonso-no Sissoko than Sissoko-Alonso-no Gerrard, but then we are also much less potent.

There is confusion when people talk about Sissoko-Alonso in the middle, they are really saying Sissoko-Alonso-Gerrard (either on the wing or in the hole), rather than Sissoko-Alonso-no Gerrard. I agree as well that having all three in at the same time is easily the best combination, but what Paul is saying (I think) is that if you had to choose ONLY TWO of those three, and add in other wingers, then Gerrard-Alonso is the best pair, leaving the third on the bench.

[XPeriment626]

Sorry to post back to back, but forgot to add an interesting side point. Was thinking why Rafa was so intent on Alves when Pennant is a proven player in the Premiership and cheaper to boot. Then I realised, while Pennant is a solid winger who isn't as suited to play right-back, and Finnan is a solid right back who doesn't comfortably play as a winger, Alves can play as a true wing-back, a right-sided version of Riise. Which leads to the tantalising 3-5-2 which allows us to play with wingers, strikers, AND all three of the best midfielders in England... (last season's Newcastle game comes to mind):

GK- Reina, CB - Agger, Hyypia, Carragher, LM - Riise, CM - Sissoko, Gerrard, Alonso, RM - Alves, CF - Crouch/Bellamy/Kuyt/Fowler.