Topic: What is RAWK?

[Narwin Dunez]

How about a bans forum, that only mods can post in but we can all read, which says who gets banned and what for, this would make things clear about what is right/what is wrong (or what is funny if its a comedy ban)

They aren't up for discussion, as only mods post in the banned forum. Just informative.

[kb1171]

A couple of big picture things I think would be helpful:

-Each poster should bring something to the table.  Before hitting post each poster should ask themself "am I adding anything valuable to the discussion" and if the answer is no, don't post it.  This means no one liner posts, and no follow up to the one-liner post calling that person a quim for having that opinion.  This is incredibly difficult to be policed by only the mods.  Posters need to take some responsibility to make this a better forum.

-Put all the "venting" in a single place.  The post match forums are fine, keep them open maybe 72 hours after the match.  Currently there are 5-7 topics on the board discussing versions of the same thing.  This is partially due to lack of a single place to keep the mess.  I think having a rectionary thread where all of the venting is done helps keep it out of other threads.  This should be lighly moderated.  No arguing, no baiting, no personal attacks on other posters etc, but other than that let people say most anything they want. 

-Along those lines, I think having a transfer sub-forum for most of the summer is useful, if only because it keeps the main forum from becoming a mess. 

-More subforums, less threads.  Maybe split it up between LFC on the pitch, LFC off the pitch.  There are many useful off the pitch threads (LFC accounts, Pictures thread, TV threads etc) but having all of these on the same forum gets messy.  Strictly moderate where each thread belongs and move accordingly.  Also, reduce the number of threads that discuss the same topic.  There are probably 2-4 arguments going on right now in general, yet they are scattered all over different threads. 

-See my 1st point again.  There are way too many posts that say the same thing and too many posters who constantly derail threads and discussion.  Think more post less is a criticism you could levy against far too many posters. 

[Tomo!]

If you start a new thread and it gets deleted then a quick pm to the op explaining why so they know where they've gone wrong, instead of leaving them guessing?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Thanks very much for all the feedback folks, keep it coming.  Some really interesting points and great to see some long time lurkers tempted into posting.  I read this site for years before registering to post and I think a lot of people still do that.  It rather reinforces the point about our responsibility being editorial as much as it is to moderate.

Keep them coming.

I'll have another read through and give some personal responses shortly (we'll also discuss this in the staff room I'm sure).

Just a few quick observations to start. 

Some of the suggestions require technical changes to the site.  These will clearly be more difficult to implement than others. 
We've looked at the rep system before and really don't think it will work, other similar sites which have implemented it have found it caused more problems than it solved.
We have ignored the "Like" system in the past for similar reasons but some of you have put forward powerful arguments for how it might work.

[Lady_brandybuck]

Again, the main topic is help the development of counstructive debate and educate the masses.

[locultom]

Clamp down on the self-righteous, bullying, rough-shod riding, vindictive but established posters as equitably as the immature, instant success, moronic newbies and WUMs.

Keep up the idea of consistent and constructive editing and maybe add a 'rawk recommended' highlight.

Don't change much else.

[helmboy_nige]

Firstly, you guys and gals do a great job.  Can't imagine moderating a forum of this size, and I think that probably explains why so many get locked.  Some suggestions:

- Editorials are a great idea.  There are so many great articles, but they do get buried.  Some find their way to the Opinion section, but there are many many gems.
- Individual player threads, one for each player.  When someone goes off track lock it and then re-open after a suitable time.
- Tactics threads for people to debate player and team tactics.
- Vent thread where anything goes (aside from the obviously unacceptable - racist, homophobic etc type abuse) - perhaps only have this open post match for 24 hours or something.
- In line with this, why not just lock ALL posts in the main Liverpool forum during matches and only open up a match thread post match for a certain period.  This way people can debate the match to their hearts content and it doesn't infect every single players thread because he had a good/bad/indifferent game.
- I've seen a number of great posts be sifted out to form their own threads because, well, they are worthy of it.  We need more of this for me, but that puts some serious pressure on you guys as the editors/mods.

As for the calling for the managers head debate.  Tough one.  Freedom to express opinion is important, but there is the Liverpool way to do things.  Maybe, I'm old fashioned but I can't abide talk of managers getting the sack.  If truth be told I even struggled with the Hodgson situation.  Not to open a can of worms because I agree he had to go and he was definitely not fit for this job, but it went against everything I had been taught.  "Liverpool should give a manager time."

Anyway, that's my bit.

Oh and if you want some honesty, I do think there are a number of the longer serving guard who get additional leeway.  Not gonna mention names, because I have loved some of the stuff they've written, but a number get away with all sorts and aren't pulled up on it.

[Tomo!]

Also I don't mind the banter, one liners and mild verbal abuse at times.

Every post shouldn't have to be deep, expansive insight into the intricacies of the game.

It's all fine and dandy for the academic types but some of us did twag the last couple of years at school and get on the glue.

[Camarero25]

- In line with this, why not just lock ALL posts in the main Liverpool forum during matches and only open up a match thread post match for a certain period.  This way people can debate the match to their hearts content and it doesn't infect every single players thread because he had a good/bad/indifferent game.

Don't agree with that. It's hard enough to keep up with the post match thread as it is because it moves so fast, imagine every post going into one thread, discussion would be nearly impossible.

Also, if you're going to do the "like" thing, I don't think you should have a "dislike" button.

[The G in Gerrard]

- In line with this, why not just lock ALL posts in the main Liverpool forum during matches and only open up a match thread post match for a certain period.  This way people can debate the match to their hearts content and it doesn't infect every single players thread because he had a good/bad/indifferent game.

I like the locking posts in main forum part during games, it just gets people posting x,y,z about a player, the team or something which isn't really required. Even prior to game would help as some people just want to slag off the first 11 before the teams even kicked a ball.

[Niru Red4ever]

Maybe have an unmoderated section where people can do what they want and a heavily moderated and edited section where the more thoughtful and informative posts can go, similar to the normal matchday threads vs roundtable threads but on a bigger scale?

What I wanted to say.

Take the Henderson thread, for instance. Everytime I went in hoping for some interesting analysis, I saw the same 'discussions' becoming worse with every passing day. Got frustrated and ended up ignoring a lot of posters but still didn't help. Kinda glad that it has been locked now.

Taking it a bit too far; have a section only a select few can post? Also, any post from the general threads which are quality can be reposted there (a bit like a current sticky thread). It would be expected to have quality posts in there only, so no 'nice post' posts (I am one of the culprits too in this regard).

Maybe just revamp the current Opinion board with threads like round table making a direct debut there?

Somedays when I am busy; at the end of the day I just want to check out the important news and catch some quality writings. Right now thats not easy to do. I know I am not giving a solution but I hope others will have something?

[redbyrdz]

Maybe have a  > /dev/null thread where every posts gets autobinned after 5 minutes.

[Matt8Pie]

Is there something you can do about pictures or videos or gifs being quoted? I don't know what to suggest or if it's even possible to stop it from happening, but I'm sick to the back teeth of going into a thread and 5+ people quoting the same gif or picture only to write "" under what they've quoted. I don't care for the thread being filled up with it, but gifs take a while to load and it makes my laptop pretty much shut down for a good few minutes because about 10 people have quoted the same gif and not deleted the link in the quote.

[macca888]

Maybe have a  > /dev/null thread where every posts gets autobinned after 5 minutes.

This is supposed to be about RAWK. I honestly don't know why you think sending all the posts to a Coronation Street corner shop owner will make things better. Unless he's a better mod than Kev.

[Big Red Richie]

Is there something you can do about pictures or videos or gifs being quoted?

I have to agree with that.  It winds me up no end, seeing the same thing a dozen times on the same page.

[Garcepticon]

Could you find a way to actively encourage the more articulate and thoughtful posters? - Give a select few their own thread to post in and respond to their writing?

Some people may be put of going to the trouble of writing something decent  in case it gets locked / missed  - could you ask people to contact you with article/ thread ideas and if they turn out good enough maybe promote them somehow?

Like that idea, was reading someones post on Spearing, cannee remember who wrote it, but if it wasn't for someone referencing it I would have missed it due to the flaming that went on post cup-final. It would be good to have a way of flagging up good posts/posters like Juan Loco and such.

[Outlaw]

We've looked at the rep system before and really don't think it will work, other similar sites which have implemented it have found it caused more problems than it solved.
We have ignored the "Like" system in the past for similar reasons but some of you have put forward powerful arguments for how it might work.

I just wanted to chime in again on this: There's a really big difference between the two and shouldn't be conflated (and I'm not suggesting you are). Reputation systems, where people 'rep and neg' others are childish and can lead to some posters targeting others with 'you twat' type messages via the reputation system; it's hardly conducive to decent debate.

'Liking' individual posts is an entirely different proposition. Even if you think a certain poster is a tit, you can still like a great post. There leaves no room for negativity towards anything, only the positive reinforcement via a community based system of readers. If you've enjoyed something, or particularly agree, then 'like' it. If not, ignore it. It seems to work well over on another forum I use (cycling related); you get the amount of 'likes' in your profile, too.

[DangerScouse]

The biggest issue I have with Rawk is the fact one or 2 posters can hijack a thread that for the main part is full of sensible discussion but said posters despite having made their stance abundantly clear, feel the need to regurgiatate the same opinion time and time again without adding to the discussion. The Adam and Aquilani threads being examples. Rather then banning people outright who are in general decent posters elsewhere on the forum, I'd like to see restrictions for certain posters in certain threads if they are continually derailing what is otherwise a decent discussion.

[jaybeezay]

I also think it may be an idea to not have peoples 'post count' showing. It means nothing on the grand scheme of things but seems to make some posters feel as though any old shit they are spouting holds infinitely more wisdom than anyone with only a few posts could ever hope to produce.
I tend not to post myself in actual football debates, preferring to read those of others so have no selfish motivation for suggesting this but i have to admit I'm guilty of sometimes skimming over what could be a good post by someone with only a few posts in favour of looking for comments from the 'legends'. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this and I am sure it is to the detriment of the debates.

[Alan_X]

Maybe restricting any who come into the main board with one line inflammatory nonsense that riles a load of other posters by 'relegating' them to the effect they can not post on the main forum for a period of time, or for say two days after a game or something?  I.e. where such comments aren't really abusive enough to warrant a ban.

They could of course go and vent elsewhere on the general footie forum or something but at least it would be off the main board.

We do that already - there's a standard warning for one line posts.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

To be honest I don't think there is much wrong with how you are doing things, although I think it could be a bit more relaxed.  Does it really matter if there is a thread now about what players we would like brought in to the club rather than wait for the Summer for example?  Stuff like that.

That's a fair point and perhaps we need to apply that rule more flexibly, however, the ban on transfer topics outside of the transfer forum (in fact the introduction of the transfer forum in the first place) were in response to all other discussion being swamped out by thread after thread on possible or even inordinately hopeful, transfer targets.

[Red_J]

With reguards a "like" system, I'm familiar with an implementation on another forum which would work pretty well on RAWK whereby the (X) most liked posts rise to the top of each thread, Or the "cream floats to the top" if you like, you then see every post in its correct chronological order below that, as it is now. Obviously not a straightforward modification and the forum I've seen it on uses vbulletin not smf, but it's a great way of highlighting the insightful or important posts which often end up buried.

[Anywhichwayicant]

I started off on RAWK, with the intention of being quite sensible and constructing well thought out posts, centering around not only our club, but football in general. I quickly scrapped that idea, as there was a lack of reasonable debate/discussion.


Now I find myself mostly clowning around The Boozer.

I love going into threads such as the GAA Thread, the Boxing thread, NFL Thread, amongst others. The discussion in there is healthy, and people can get their point across without petty name calling/jibes.

I probably spend most my time on here, in the WWE/Other Wrestling thread. It's full of very knowledgeable lads, all capable of healthy discussion. There's plenty of disagreements in there, some of them heated, but it never ends with petty name calling or real malice. To be fair, I find this to be the case in most threads on RAWK, but there's just something about Football that brings out the venom and pettiness in people. Whether that's to do with the sheer quantity of posters posting, I don't know, quite probably.

[Matt8Pie]

That's a fair point and perhaps we need to apply that rule more flexibly, however, the ban on transfer topics outside of the transfer forum (in fact the introduction of the transfer forum in the first place) were in response to all over discussion being swamped out by thread after thread on possible or even inordinately hopwful, transfer targets.

Is it possible to make the transfer forum viewable by members only?

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Possibly too much tribalism, yes, including those of 'the Elite' (the wannabe 'Brian Glanvilles'), hence why we have so many lurkers e.g. too scared to post for fear of being ridiculed (aka bullied).

Me? I can't stand the idea of any supposed LFC fan booing any of our players, no matter how bad they are.  It's sooo very,,,,Londonesque.

But, hey, that's modern football.

 

[kLFCreds]

What I will say is that whilst people coming on here after a defeat and saying they want rid of Kenny, all our players are shite, etc etc is irritating, inflammatory and contributes absolutely nothing to the site, some of the posts written by people occupying the opposite end of the scale are almost equally as irritating and inflammatory, and don't contribute all that much either. I think that it's difficult to find that middle-ground on here - a sentence that could have been worded better ends up being jumped on, and the rest of what is otherwise a well thought out, balanced and reasonable post gets ignored. Then you'll get the thread being derailed by squabbling and pettiness, and of course I've been guilty of doing the same thing myself in the past, but I digress - what I'm saying is that it's not just WUMs and kneejerkers and whingers that detract from debate on here.

Co-sign.

[Chazz]

I don't think there is anything wrong with RAWK, and I don't think that theres anything really technical that needs to be fixed. I think sometimes people post stupid things, but that happens all the time in the real world people aren't perfect...well I am but most people aren't  I think one thing that could work - which I think someone said earlier on in the thread - might be not to lock threads when they start getting out of hand, I think it would be better if the mods cut the offending posts out and send them them an email telling them that their post was removed because it was abusive/stupid...don't know how feasible that is, because its a massive site...

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Agree with that. I think certain posters get away with blatant abuse because the mods seem to agree with their views.

(There is a banning amnesty for the things I say in this thread right? )

I know that was in jest, but yes of course there is, no mindless abuse obviously, but if you think we are getting it wrong then let us know.

[bleedsred1978]

More round table style threads please.

[Hinesy]

Conversely, I feel that topics that people obviously have big opinions about are too frequently dismissed out of hand. It's good that transfer topics are closed outside of the transfer window, but there are bigger things that should be open to discussion this year rather than endless pages of team formations. It should be possible to discuss whether Kenny is up to the job. It should be possible to say 'actually, I think what Suarez said was racist and he should never have said it' - which, for the record, I do believe. It should be possible to accommodate a little bit of hand-wringing, because that's the nature of being a football fan and certainly the nature of supporting Liverpool and it should be possible to discern which comments are worthy of reflection. But too often the RAWK editorial process is a blythe one, where maybe it could be more, well, editorial. Cutting out rather than closing off. There should be more room for comment and opinion and less room for the empty-vesseling that too often happens here.

Excellent point and I would agree with you. I'm browsing through this thread so will write more when I've read the rest.

[Red Emperor]

I Find rawk to be a brilliant site the range of topics the site covers is the best i have seen, what i most like about it is no matter what topic is  being covered you always get all sides of the debate and if it goes to far the mods give you the reason why the thread has been locked.
and thats the most you can ask for.

[Trada]

with regards voting / thumbs up...

It would be great to use something like this, as we would be able to half the size of the threads. All the "well said", "i agree", "here here", posts would be cleaned right up, thus the thread would flow smoother, consume less band with, and quality gets noticed.

I like that ideal, nothing worse than a big post being quoted then just  saying great post.  I admit I have done that myself. A lot better just to click a like button.

What about a Newbie Forum you can only post there say until you have reached so many posts. May stop some of the WUM who just post when we lose. And if someone on there is a good poster he/she can be moved over to the main forum before they reach their post count.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

More round table style threads please.

That is definitely the sort of thing that we are hoping to encourage with the new emphasis on encouraging good writing mate.

[Anywhichwayicant]

I Find rawk to be a brilliant site the range of topics the site covers is the best i have seen

Absolutely spot on.

An all you can eat buffet.

[bleedsred1978]

For me, RAWK is just too populated to allow for good discussion. The post-match round table threads have been excellent because they move along at a steady but not lightning pace and posts are generally well thought-out. It seems that many people get scared away by the need to post more than a few lines of instant reaction, and this is a good thing. But many threads in the main LFC section of the forum just don't lend themselves to good discussion because they move too fast and good posts have a habit of getting lost amidst the unremarkable. On a similar note, you can arrive a few days late at the round table threads, read through, get a sense of where the discussion is going, and chime in accordingly, but when you're confronted with 20 pages spanning a matter of hours, you either think "why bother?" or you just read the end of the thread and end up repeating something that's already been mentioned.

I spend most of my time in other areas of RAWK because threads are, generally, easier paced, often funnier, and posters either seem to chill out a bit or simply have a bit more respect for each other.

Spot on.

[bleedsred1978]

That is definitely the sort of thing that we are hoping to encourage with the new emphasis on encouraging good writing mate.

I cant speak for anyone else but it always challenges me to actually have a think about what I'm about to post before I put anything in there. There's a standard to uphold in those threads, there,s a respect for opinion.

It,s the best of rawk in my eyes.

[LiverLuke]

with regards voting / thumbs up...

It would be great to use something like this, as we would be able to half the size of the threads. All the "well said", "i agree", "here here", posts would be cleaned right up, thus the thread would flow smoother, consume less band with, and quality gets noticed.

There shouldn't need to be a points system, just a means to view good posts easier, and reduce the clutter. hopefully this tidier approach would promote posts of greater quality. if the posts that got the thumbs up could change colour or be highligted in some way, all the better

i agree with this, sounds a bit lame and facebooky but it would be a good thing as opposed to all the quotes filling up space.

[Anywhichwayicant]

I spend most of my time in other areas of RAWK because threads are, generally, easier paced, often funnier, and posters either seem to chill out a bit or simply have a bit more respect for each other.

Ding Dong!


My incoherent post, packaged up into this sentence.

[-Q-]

What are your bugbears with our moderation?

The smart-arsed custom titles. 

[Dave D]

Absolutely no good can come from the "Like" system, not on a football forum. People are not going to push the like button just for an amazingly well written post, it will be used to score cheap points against the club and posters on here. If you really want to go with the "Like" system, try in out in Flagpole Corner first.

As for the pre-match and post-match threads, well they're a fucking shambles. I would lock the pre-match thread the second the team is announced, or should I say leaked to the opposition. There should be a time limit on when the post-match thread can be opened. Do we really want to see the same posters tell us how shit the team they support is only a few seconds after the final whistle? If people want to vent, let them do it on twitter with the rest of the cretins. For the rest, let them cool down for a few of hours so they don't embarrass themselves.